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Sunday, June 22, 2025

‘Proto-Yamnaya’ Eneolithic individuals from Kuban steppe c. 3700 BC ? (guest post)


This is a guest post by an anonymous contributor. I don't necessarily agree with its findings, but I think it's a good way to get the ball rolling here again. Feel free to let me know what you think. Please note, however, that any comments that show mental instability will be blocked. No more crazy talk on this blog.

In order to understand who Yamnaya people were, one must first define ‘Yamnaya’. We will adopt a strictu sensu view (e.g. Anthony, Heyd) encompassing burials dating 3200-2600 BC, with a characteristic body position, mound construction, and copper artefacts. These complexes can be linked to a core group of people whose autosomal make-up is quite homogeneous throughout their wide geographic range. Moreover, almost all males belong to Y-haplogroup R1b-M269-Z2103. In this light, ‘core Yamnaya’ does not represent a ‘proto-Indo-European’ population, as commonly proclaimed, but a group which contributed to several post-PIE population-language complexes, such as Tocharian, Armenian and some Paleo-Balkan languages. However, historical linguistics is not the focus of this post.

Archeologists had linked Yamnaya to earlier complexes such as Khvalynsk, Repin and/or Mikhalivka. Given that cultural markers such as pottery and burial customs can be borrowed and copied, ancient DNA can offer a more objective assessment of population origins. However, the cacophony of clusters, clines and other statistical constructs in publications can be confusing. A more rationalized approach is required, and one way is to co-analyse phylogenetically linked individuals across space and time. Apart from a lower-quality individual from Smyadovo (Bulgaria c. 4300 BC), the earliest attestation of R1b-M269 is in two individuals from the Kuban steppe (Stavropol region) c. 3700 BC -NV3003 and KST001 (Ghaliachi et al 2024). However, Y-hg R1b-M269 is missing in currently sampled Kuban steppe and north Caucasian males from the preceding period (5000-4000 BC). Males of the ‘Kuban steppe 4500bc’ group (Progress, Vojnucka, Sengeleevskiy, etc) are instead derived for the phylogenetically divergent Y-hg Rb-V1636. Males from the Nalchik cemetery are also derived for Y-hg R1b-V1636, or related haplotypes, although they were buried in a ‘Caucasian Farmer’ pose and heavily infused with such ancestry, but probably also had a burial mound thrown above. We do not know when the R1b-V1636 clans entered the northern Caucasus region, or from where, but they appear to have been attracted by trade with North Caucasian Famer (~Eneolithic) groups- termed as ‘Meshoko-Zamok’, ‘Chokh’, etc, in literature. Curiously the Nalchik group has minimal Central Asian (“TTK-related”) ancestry, whilst the Kuban steppe group has high levels. This suggests that TTK-related ancestry arrived after R1b-V1636 dominant EHG clans entered the North Caucasus region, but other scenarios are possible. Lastly, two ‘Meshoko culture’ males from Unakozovskaya have been assigned to Y-hg J2a-L26.

A shake-up occurred in the north Caucasus after 4000 BC. As we know, this corresponds to the emergence of the Majkop phenomenon, catalysed by renewed migrations from the south. These were not ‘Uruk migrants’ as sometimes proposed - the Uruk phenomenon occurred several hundred years later and was a south Mesopotamian phenomenon. Instead, these newcomers emerge from southern Caucasus- north Mesopotamian ‘Late Chalcolithic’ groups. They brought with them multiple West Asian lineages, such as Y-hg T, L2, J2a-, J2b, G2. Over time they mixed with preceding north Caucasian Eneolithic groups, culminating in the Novosvobodnaja phenomenon.

The emergence of Majkop as a new socio-cultural complex broke down the previous system dominated by Y-hg R1b-V1636 clans. The Majkop sphere consisted of a ‘core’ of heterarchical chiefs buried in elaborate kurgans near the Mountains, and a dynamic northern ‘frontier’ in the steppe lands (as far as the lower Don) between 4000 and 3000 BC. At least 3 ‘‘Majkop periphery’ genetic groups can be defined; in fact all these groups can be termed ‘steppe Majkop’:

1- Group with western Siberian/ north central Asian ancestry (the ‘genetic steppe Majkop’ as defined in Wang et al, 2023)
2- The South Caucasian/north Iranian ‘Zolotarevka’ group
3- The R1b-M269 duo.

Regardless of their lineages and genomic affinities, these individuals were often buried in kurgans which over time formed groups. These were not continuations of pre-4000 BC kurgans, but the communities instead made a conscious choice to build new kurgans after 4000 BC, adding to the idea of discontinuity. But once built, these kurgan clusters continued to be developed for hundreds of years, into the Yamnaya period. This does imply ethnic homogeneity or continuity, just a ‘continuity of place’. Without a direct attestation of a phylogenetic ancestor, and guestimating from their (non-identical) genomic profile, we are left to speculate that Y-hg R1b-M269 individuals moved down from somewhere in the Volga-Don interfluve. Perhaps amongst groups utilizing Repin pottery, but if so, they did not continue its use in their new contexts. By 3000 BC, the Majkop system collapsed. Yamnaya groups and their ‘Catacomb’ descendants took control of the north Caucasus region, having benefitted from years of trade/ exchange and knowledge gathering. Whether Yamnaya actually descend from individuals like KST-1 or NV3003 remains to be seen, however these are the closest leads we have. Certainly, we can model Yamnaya as deriving from KST-1 (88%) + Dnieper_N (12%), but we should be cautious when using singular individuals as ‘sources’.
See also...

The PIE homeland controversy: December 2024 open thread

412 comments:

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Shomu said...

@Gio
this is 100% Semitic Jewish line. Not surprising, since this is Italy, how it got there is no secret. ancient Romans Jesus here and there

Rob said...

speaking of Etruscans, etc; looks like Italy remained quite diverse into the BA.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-025-61601-8

The Beaker impact was quite minimal there, limited to western Sicily and parts of the northwest. IMO, L52-rich 'Italics' came from Danubian BA groups like Lech valley and Wietenberg

Gio said...

@Shomu Tepe

"@Gio
this is 100% Semitic Jewish line. Not surprising, since this is Italy, how it got there is no secret. ancient Romans Jesus here and there"

This is what Jews liked and like to think, but perhaps you know that in these last 20 Years I thought and wrote the contrary, and the 40 Years before in what you don't know: poetry and critics, but perhaps you know that for that I was banned pretty much from everywhere. But look at the last events: Jews had unthinkable disasters.
The paper of the Harvardians about Imperial Rome failed too, and you may look at what the same Davidski and Rob think now about the "Southern Arc theory", the last part of that. My idea (I think demonstrasted) is that hg J has no link with the Levant (and up to there it arrived above all 4200 Years ago from the Caucasus or Iran), but when it wasn't original from Europe it arrived independently from eastern Europe or through Anatolia, not from the Levant.
I supported many Years ago that hg. J2b1 (the YP snp cluster) expanded from Europe, mostly central or Baltic one. To find the same subclades in Italy and the Levant doesn't mean that they arrived in Europe from the Levant, but independently, and the subclades from the Levant are more recent. Look at the dates and above all to the aDNA.

Shomu said...

Russian archaeologists have used radiocarbon dating to determine the age of the cultural layers of the Zamil-Koba-1 site in Crimea. It turns out that the ancient grotto was used by people twice: at the end of the Upper Paleolithic (around 12,000 BC) and during the Mesolithic (around 7,700 BC).
What was found in the grotto?
Two cultural layers with a difference of 4,000 years
Ancient dwelling with a hearth, a sleeping place, and a bone
Unique artifacts:

pendants made from deer and cave lion tusks
remains of animals (giant deer, wild boar, wild ass)
fragments of a human skull (from a later period)
How was the age determined?
Scientists analyzed animal bones using radiocarbon dating:

lower layer: 12,052-11,556 BC (Shan-Koba culture)
upper layer: 7,729-7,581 BC (Murzak-Koba culture)👇

https://www.newsinfo.ru/news/stone-age-site/898277/

Gio said...

@Rob

Thank you for the link to this paper. Among many hg G, we have I-CTS10100 (8200ybp), J-PF5073/etc (6300ybp). More recent one R-L2. Fundamental are the mt, and many people should remember all what I wrote about the mt in many thousands of letters.

Gio said...

@Shomu tepe

"@Gio
100,000% of them arrived in Italy from the territory of the Levant, the territory of the border regions of the Mediterranean Sea (Lebanon, the territory of modern Israel, Palestine), at least they came to Rome as Jews, and not as Caucasians, Georgians, Armenians, Iranians, etc."

Someone spoke about 70,000, but it isn't important how many of them arrived but how many of them survived and had descendants
1) slaves passed their nights in the "ergastula", a prison of about 1 mq
2) also who survived and had descendants in the Imperial Rome, you should know that the people of the cities went extinct in the Middle Ages and Italian people was due to the country people of the Iron Age and an intake of German people after the fall of the Roman Empire, in fact I am 99,5% Italian and in the uniparental markers I have some Longobard Y and I am pretty much a "Roman". The same my wife from Sicily: uniparental markers are German/Norman (mt K1c1f3 and R-L21, but we have Other R-L21 in Tuscany and they are under exam and they could have come also 2900 Years ago with the Etruscans)
3) the exam of the Jews from Erfurt 1350 AD demonstrated that they were Italian at 70%, 15% from Eastern Europe and 15% from Northern Africa, Middle East, Iran with no proof that they were "Jews". By examining other Italian Jews they seemed to me coming just from the "Imperial Rome", and anyway Ashkenazic Jews are an European cluster in 23andMe
4) I personally demonstrated the European origin of many Y-s (and I don't speak of the mt-s that also Jews think that they are "European") of the European Jews, including the Rothschilds (J-Y15223, very likely of Caucasian origin but present in Italy during the first millennium BC)
5) and so on.


Gio said...

@Rob

VEL701 Adige (TN) La Vela VII MN VBQ2 4545-4374 13-14 yo** M** Skull (PP right) XY 0.089-0.0916 Male 0.4798454-0.5331067 31.645.042 15.643.035 15.439.334 7.913.041 6.735.074 0,30 51,3 0,153 0,631 70 0,158 195381 0,192 172.370 17.112 0.025 - 0.035 2.506 9.6 (3.5) H 100 225 0,02 0,01 0,03 5.204 G-Z756*(xZ3205,Z27264) G2a2b2a1a1b
Also the hg G, specifically G-L497, once thought an Etruscan Y, is 6500 Years old in Italy and its origin in YFull is 7300 ybp, and it is so far the oldest aDNA, and it could demonstrate from where perhaps Yamnaya and nearby did come.

Moesan said...

@Gio
I have the feeling deep Italy is the womb of all Europeans when I read you.

Gio said...

@ Moesan

"@Gio
I have the feeling deep Italy is the womb of all Europeans when I read you".

It isn't what I thought and wrote. If, by the data at our disposal, I wrote that I-M223 from 20000 to 10000 Years ago and probably R1b1 from 14/17000 Years ago to the Younger Dryas lived in actual Italy it does mean that before and after that they were elsewhere. What I fought against when I began to write about these arguments was that the refugia in Europe were the Franco-Cantabrian and Balkan/Ukrainian ones and not Italy, because everybody thought that what is in Italy did Always come from elsewhere, and that hg J was "Semitic" and if it is in Italy now it is because it came from Semitics, and that Jews or Arabs or Caucasians are so from the beginning, and if some haplogroups lived sometime in North Balkans if they are in Italy now it is because Italians are Albanians or Turks or Northern Africans and they have the right to own Italy to-day etc etc.
What it is important in history is the "formation" of a people as I thought that it was an idea of Massimo Pallottino about the Etruscans, but after I realized that this idea was due to the great historian of Romans, i.e. Theodor Mommsen. The same prejudice is about Yamnaya, where my Y very likely lived 5000 Years ago, but probably it was in Italy before and it was Latin/Roman after (not excluding so far a Medieval migration from elsewhere), but I am now "Italian" at 99,5%, and my grandchildren are 50% Flemish, i.e. 100% German/Frank, and I am glad so...

Gaska said...

@Norfern Osthrobothnian

You are just speculating, neither you nor I know what the language of the European HGs was and we don't know if the EHGs and WHgs spoke different languages. You think they did and I think they didn't based on an obvious scientific fact.

The Yamnaya male markers are overwhelmingly of European origin so to think that these men changed their language because of genetic or cultural influence from the South Caucasus seems absurd to me. Whether that language was Indo-European is another story.

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

An impulse from the west is detectable in the autosomes too during the Neolithic whence many of these WHG associated markers entered a more EHG heavy environment in an areay where cultures such as Mariupol and Sredny Stog would later arise. But by the Yamnaya and Corded Ware periods I don't think these demographic events are immediately relevant, so to say that PIE or pre-PIE was spoken by cultures preceding these ones. I don't think CHG in the Mesolithic sense is that relevant either to be fair, especially since Ciscaucasus itself doesn't seem that relevant to Indo-European langauge dispersal.
https://ibb.co/GfLmB7Q9

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

So in other words whatever WHG influence and ancestry Mariupol, Sredny Stog, CWC or Yamnaya have came already by the Neolithic so whether or not some form of pre-PIE came alongside with it is not really that relevant when discussing later dispersals and dynamics during the Eneolithic and Bronze Age.

Vara said...

The Maykop/Novosvobodnaya metallurgist "colonists" of Mikhailovka that David Anthony wrote about were most likely genetically similar to KST001 and not to the ones with a typical southern profile. While the origin of Maykop is undoubtedly southern the people who carried this culture weren't always so (Steppe Maykop/KST001).

Also the oldest pre-DOM2 horse is found in a steppe Maykop kurgan: "Steppe Maykop, early, OxA-16185:
4724±31 BP (cal. BC 3621-3381, cal. BC 3630-3376), ab; OxA-16136: 4720±43 BP (cal. BC
3623-3379, cal. BC 3632-3373), hb. Comment: 5-7th degree related to SA6001; one of the
horse bones revealed the oldest ancestors of the DOM2 horse lineage."

Davidski said...

@Arsen

You can't impersonate people here. I'll have to ban you.

Rob said...

@ Norfern

''An impulse from the west is detectable in the autosomes too during the Neolithic whence many of these WHG associated markers entered a more EHG heavy environment in an areay where cultures such as Mariupol and Sredny Stog would later arise. But by the Yamnaya and Corded Ware periods I don't think these demographic events are immediately relevant, so to say that PIE or pre-PIE was spoken by cultures preceding these ones.
So in other words whatever WHG influence and ancestry Mariupol, Sredny Stog, CWC or Yamnaya have came already by the Neolithic so whether or not some form of pre-PIE came alongside with it is not really that relevant when discussing later dispersals and dynamics during the Eneolithic and Bronze Age.''

However, the 'steppe Neolithic' is a humble 55-5000 BC, not a PPN of 9000 BC :)
This provides a perfect match for the initial dispersal- or 'acceptance' of PIA across the steppe, and provides >= 1000 years of dialectial differentiation before the commencement of definitive splits c. 4000 BC

Perhaps Im misunderstanding your reference to CW & Yamnaya. But CW and Yamnaya are post-nuclear -IE : they do not even account for all post-Anatolian languages, let alone all PIA (that is because, IMO, some non-Anatolian Balkan IEs had contributions from pre-Yamnaya groups, such as Usatavo, Cernavoda, etc, even though their spread deeper into the Balkans chronologically coincides with the expansion of core Yamnaya, and have thus been overlooked due to academic "Yamnaya-mania")

These are good debates of course, because now we are getting to the fine grains. But as I've said, I will be swayed either way pending -- if ever- we get the slam dunk on Yamnaya & CW.

Gaska said...

@Norfern

It is relevant in the sense of trying to find out which language was spoken by Yamnaya and with the genetic data both uniparental and autosomal that we have, that language was most likely that of her European HG ancestors. The later dispersion is irrelevant if you don't know what that language was.

@Rob

Data from Italy confirm the origin of the Terramare culture in the local Chalcolithic and the origin of the Etruscans in Terramare, due to the overwhelming control of the G2a2b-L497 clans from the Chalcolithic to the Iron Age. In this sense the genetic history of Italy is very different from that of Spain or France because not only the influence of the BB culture was minimal (In Liguria and Sicily are Iberian BBs). This opens three interesting questions

1-G2a2b-L497 could explain the NO-IE language of the Etruscan.

2-How did those G2a-L497 clans become the Celtic elite of the Hallstatt culture in Germany and France, did they abandon their NO-IE language?

3-Where did U152 enter the Italic peninsula?. It seems clear that it was not the German or Swiss BBs and neither Unetice people or the tumuli. They could have entered from the Balkans in the early Bronze Age together with J2b-L283 and R1b-Z2103 both from the north and south of the peninsula and this would explain the Indo-Europeanization of Italy during the Iron Age.

Rob said...

essentially, I am of the view that when lower-Volga-CHG ancestry diffused c. 4300 BC ('early Sredni Stog'), PIA was already spoken in the Dieper-Azov-Don region by communities containing rich in I2a, R1b & R1a. I have difficulty in seeing the 'Csongrad pioneers', rich in Y-hg Q1 as PIA, and the evidence is not exactly in favour of it either, otherwise we'd see Q1 instead of I2 in Kullobla, Yassitepe and Kalehoyuk. This Cosngrad-Berezhnovka 'wave' which reached the Balkans died off along with their Varna ghosti/hostes in the Great Flood. But in the steppe, they probably imparted the 'Caucasian-like' linguistic adstratum

Rob said...

@ Gaska

1. Quite possibly
2. Halstatt is interesting, probably a complex chiefdom like society. Archaeology shows that the Etruscans had close contacts with them, now we know because they were kin. So there might be a strong non-IE element in Halstatt. The Celtic link might explain the appearance of Lepontic in northern Italy.
The later expansion of La Tene is perhaps more narrowly associated with Gauls (incl Boii, etc) which were a more barbarian, northern group from the Rhine-Moselle region.
3. lets wait & see

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

@Rob
Yeah I left out stuff like Cernavoda but the same point applies.

@Gaska
That is easier to determine by looking at the ancestors of Yamnaya, or other steppe cultures, rather than trying to match Mesolithic origins of uniparentals with what Yamnaya has. Same goes for BBC and CWC uniparentals.

Shomu said...

@Rob

This is what I think about EHG, not the Western Caucasus, not Crimea, not the Northern Caucasus, but rather the region of the lower Volga-Northern Caspian👇
https://i.ibb.co/sJ6rzr8Q/IMG-20250715-082350-340.jpg

the meaning of proportions for the source components, I took from this diagram
https://i.ibb.co/30rt87Y/zGkRUaFF.PNG

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

@Gaska
Maybe Halstatt culture got it from proto-Rhaetians or some other people from Tyrol?
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-025-61601-8

Gio said...


@ Gaska

"3-Where did U152 enter the Italic peninsula?. It seems clear that it was not the German or Swiss BBs and neither Unetice people or the tumuli. They could have entered from the Balkans in the early Bronze Age together with J2b-L283 and R1b-Z2103 both from the north and south of the peninsula and this would explain the Indo-Europeanization of Italy during the Iron Age".

I have just examined the last days, due to a "cold case" in Italy, the Y of Alberto Stasi, from Lombardy but with a father from Apulia. His J2b1 is probabvly in Italy from 5000 Years but perhaps from 7000 and through the oldest samples of each upstram subclades even before. This disproves what you say, and R1b-Z2103 is my haplogroup, probably in Yamnaya 5000 Years ago, but very likely a Roman/Latin haplotype at least from 3100 Years and the oldest samples are in Scandinavia and not elsewhere and from Scandinavia and the Baltic I think that expanded the "Villabruna" after the Younger Dryas. Probably the Latin speakers did come from the Adriatic pile dwellers, older than the 5000 Years old pile dwellers of the Alps (both Italy and Switzerland).


Shomu said...

CIHG impulses occurred periodically from time to time in the north of the Caspian Sea, most likely associated with some periodic climatic events (drought, cold, etc.)

Gaska said...

@Norfern

Well, that has already been proven by genetics, so if G2a-L497 explains the Non-Indo-European language of the Etruscans, and if they also controlled Hallstatt, either Hallstatt spoke non-IE, or as Rob says, perhaps it was a bilingual culture, or we will also find G2a-L497 in Austrian territory from the Chalcolithic. In the latter case the Austrian L497 would speak Celtic, and the Tyrolean and Italian L497 would speak Etruscan.

*NOG201 (2796 BCE)-Nogarole, Adige, chalcolithic-G2a2b2a1a1b1a-CTS12895>Z1816-M.Croze, 2025
*CGG2_022646 (1398 BCE)-Olmo di Nogara, ODN493-G2a2b-L497>Z725-Z1816-Yediay, 2024
*COL330 (675 BCE)-Colmar, French_LIA, Alsace-G2a2b-L497>Y7538>Z1816-Fischer, 2021
*HOC004 (515 BCE)-Hochdorf, Hallstatt, Germany-G2a2b2a1a1b1a-L497>Z1816-Gretzinger, 2024

*NOG301 (1820 BCE)-Nogarole, Adige, Italy-G2a2b-L497>Y7538-M.Croze, 2025
*CAM003 (655 BCE)-Campiglia dei Foci, Siena, IA_Etruria-G2a2b-L140>L497>Z1815>Y7538
*CGG023690 (530 BCE)-Les Moidons tumulus4, Hallstatt-G2a2b2a1a1b1a-L497>Z759-Y7538

Rob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rob said...

@ Norfern
''Yeah I left out stuff like Cernavoda but the same point applies.''

In brief, Cernavoda would be related to Hittite, pre-Cernavoda to Luwian, Mariupol to pre-Proto-Indo-Hittite (althought I don;t like that term)

Richard Rocca said...

@Gaska, The Bell Beakers that are found in Parma in Northern Italy (yet to be published) are all R-L2 like those found in Bohemian and southern Germany. In the same site, Bell Beakers with no steppe ancestry and haplogroup G2a2 are found as well. No Balkan ancestry, nor Z2118, Z2103, nor J2b. The archaeology of Northern Bell Beakers and Tuscany have always matched that of Bohemia, the German Danube and even Hungary. Cetina is probably a result of incoming northern R-L2 mixing with Yamnaya>>Vucedol, which may later have moved into Italy from the Dinaric Alps and the Adriatic.

Rob said...

@ Rocca
To me, it seems like those Parma Beakers didn’t push further down Italy

Shomu said...

AI determined kinship more accurately than DNA tests ❋ 4.8
At the Institute for Artificial Intelligence and Digital Science of the Faculty of Computer Science at HSE University, researchers proposed a new approach to identifying human genetic origins based on advanced machine learning methods. Graph neural networks make it possible to distinguish even very closely related populations with high accuracy.

https://naked-science.ru/article/column/rodstvo-tochnee-chem-test

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

Mass data analysis is the one thing AI should be good at, it's pretty much fancier procedural generation. However these things will be prone to hallucinate things given what data it has been provided but that applies to other analysis methods too to an extent.

Shomu said...

does the diagram have a right to exist? comment
https://i.ibb.co/sJ6rzr8Q/IMG-20250715-082350-340.jpg

Shomu said...

Why was a russian institute the first to apply graph neural networks (GNN) to the problem of kinship and population structure, given that the largest genetic projects (1000 Genomes, UK Biobank, HGP, etc.) have long been conducted in the US and Europe?🤔

Gaska said...

@Rocca

Well, we will wait for those L2 samples to be published, the ones we have in both Parma and Sicily are of Iberian origin not German.

In any case the BB culture in Italy is clearly a residual issue and even if L2 entered from the north it is evident that those men were not able to change the non-Indo-European language (or languages) spoken in Italy. On the other hand, there are abundant examples of Balkan migrations that reached both northern and southern Italy. Those who joined the Terramare culture and then the Etruscan culture were not able to impose their language either,

I18752 (1800 BCE)-Cetina valley, HRV_BA, Croatia-R1b-M269>L23>L51>Z2118
CGG2_023928 (1800 BCE)-Apollo Maleatas, Argolis-R1b1a1b1a2-L51>Z2118
CGG2_022623 (1312 BCE)-Olmo di Nogara, ODN318-R1b-L51>Z2118-Yediay, 2024


but those who reached Lazio, Picenia & Apulia did manage to do so.

I19025 (1.800 BCE)-Cetina valley, HRV_Cetina_BA, Croatia-J2b2a1-L283
MYG001 (1.549 BCE)-Mygdalia, Achaia, Mycenean culture, Greece-J2b2a1-L283>Z615
NEO806 (1063 BCE)-Grotta Delle Mura, Puglia, BA_Italy-J2b-L283>Y21878-HARVARD
PN157 (725 BCE)-Novilara, Picenos, IA_Italy-J2b2a-L283>Z622>Z600>Y5058
R474 (650 BCE)-Civitavecchia, La Mattonara, Iron Age, Italy-J2b2a-L283>Z2197

CGG2_023820 (1214 BCE)-Voudeni, Achaea, Peloponnese-R1b1a1b1b3a1-Z2110
R1016 (800 BCE)-Castel Di decima, latins, Iron Age, Italy-R1b-Z2103
PN176 (650 BCE)-Novilara, Picenos, IA_Italy-R1b-Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Z2110>CTS7556
SGR002 (498 BCE)-San Giovanni Rotondo, Apulia, IA_Italy-R1b-Z2103

Davidski said...

AI genetics research is gonna be fun to watch.

You know all those weird things that happen in peer reviewed papers, like Pontus Skoglund claiming that modern Hungarians are basically Scythian-like Central Asians, or Iosif Lazaridis claiming that everything came from Armenia?

Well, it'll be like that but on steroids.

Rob said...

AI isn't for research and high-level thinking. At best is supplements investigation (for example it is appropriatly used by Radiologists in reading Xrays & CT scans), at worst lazy dead-beats will keep flogging it in an attempt to be relevant

Richard Rocca said...

@Rob. Certainly there were Bell Beaker sites south of Parma, the most important ones being in Tuscany. From there they trail off all the way to Lazio. The modern distribution of U152 in Italy is strikingly similar to the distribution of Bell Beaker, with high percentages in Northern Italy and Tuscany, but sharp drop-offs along the entire Adriatic side of the Apennine Mountains and southern Italy. As @Gaska mentioned, the Bell Beaker material in Sicily has long been known to archaeologically resemble those in Iberia. There are nuances however, as non-L2 subclades like Z56, Z193 dominate in Liguria and Tuscany and have a connection to SE France and Switzerland. Even L2 in Italy seems to be divided between old Italian/Swiss ones that are not really seen elsewhere and likely separated early on during the Bell Beaker period (my sub-clade included) and younger L2 that may have been brought through successive waves (Urnfield, Celts, Germanics). Like everything else with aDNA, it's complicated.

Gio said...

@ Gaska

Ahahahahah the aDNA is important but until an older DNA is tested somewhere!

"I18752 (1800 BCE)-Cetina valley, HRV_BA, Croatia-R1b-M269>L23>L51>Z2118
CGG2_023928 (1800 BCE)-Apollo Maleatas, Argolis-R1b1a1b1a2-L51>Z2118
CGG2_022623 (1312 BCE)-Olmo di Nogara, ODN318-R1b-L51>Z2118-Yediay, 2024"

The oldest samples found in the Balkans are about 3800 Years old of an hg born as to YFull 5700 ybp. Also the oldest G-L497 was about 5000 yo but we have now a sample in Italy 6500 yo.
The oldest separated sample of R-Z2118, 5100 yo, is from Turkey, but actually of Kaiseri origin in Greece, and those people of the Mokrin culture did come from the eastern Alps. This method to reason is like the Phylogeographer of Hunter Provyn: it lacks history.
The oldest subclade of R-Z2118 is the R-Z2118(xZ2116) and the survived samples are pretty much all in Italy, and I tested the great part of them.

Richard Rocca said...

@GASKA - if I recall correctly, the published Parma Bell Beakers were P312+ but did not have values for DF27, which is typical for aDNA in Spain. However, calls for U152 are also rare in aDNA, so it is extremely unlikely they are DF27 and instead are U152 xL2. Either way, you can see the preliminary results of the R-L2 Parma Bell Beakers here:

https://youtu.be/2GyyawhBDd0?t=1008

TB1: R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 (R-L2)
TB2: R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 (R-L2)
TB8: G2a2a1a2a1
TB16: R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 (R-L2)
TB9: G2a2a1a2a1
TB20: R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 (R-L2)

Here we see IBD sharing of the Cava Quaresima, Parma samples up to 8th degree relatives are from north-eastern France, the German Danube and the Hungarian Danube:

https://youtu.be/2GyyawhBDd0?t=1576

And the same Cava Quaresima, Parma samples IBD sharing up to 8-12th degree relatives showing even heavier links from the German Danube and Bohemia:

https://youtu.be/2GyyawhBDd0?t=1609

As you can see, nothing "Iberian" or "Balkan" about their Y-DNA, autsomally or archeology. The fact that they are R-L2 mixed in with local Italian Neolithic G2a2 is pretty telling. It is pretty clear the Balkan Y-DNA came in later waves. That these Balkans would have brought with them Italo-Celtic languages is a non-starter, but certainly the heavy survival of G2a2 in Rhaetian samples from the Bronze Age and the very heavy (67%) survival in Terramare samples are a hint of where proto-Tyrsenian survived later as Rhaetian and Etruscan. A Thesis from the important Etruscan town of Fesina also shows the survival of G2a2, albeit in smaller percentages.

Hodo Scariti said...

@ Richard Rocca

Very interesting news about R-U152>L2 in Beakers from Parma area, many thanks.

What about the already published Beakers from Parma via Guidorossi? E.G., sample I2478 is U152>L2 or DF27 as someone suggested in the past? Was that sample re-analyzed?

What's your theory about the arrival of U152>Z36 subclade in Italy? For now, it seems that most of U152 samples were U152>L2 and another remarkable part were U152>Z56... U152>Z36 is a very tiny minority and, if I remember well, nearly all (or all?) belonging to U152>Z36>Z37 subclade.

truth said...

@Davidski

This is off-topic, but would it be possible to upload to the G25 dataset these samples of Italian isolates (Ilegio, Resia, Erto, San Martino del Carso, ..):
https://ega-archive.org/datasets/EGAD00001000728

From this study:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3658181/

Dospaises said...

Let's stop calling lies hallucinations. They are lies. AI lies. It doesn't know the answer to things because all it does is throws words together that it has found together or seem to be related based in it's "logic". AI at times lies about details of DNA studies. At times it lies about which studies have which specimens. At times it lies about what was said about certain specimens. AI can be as a resource but not as a source. It even makes up law cases. So every claim by AI needs to be researched elsewhere. AI should always be asked for the source of every claim and then the source should be researched elsewhere and within AI by asking it details about the claim and/or source.

Rob said...

@ Rocca

'Certainly there were Bell Beaker sites south of Parma, the most important ones being in Tuscany. From there they trail off all the way to Lazio. The modern distribution of U152 in Italy is strikingly similar to the distribution of Bell Beaker, with high percentages in Northern Italy and Tuscany, but sharp drop-offs along the entire Adriatic side of the Apennine Mountains and southern Italy. As @Gaska mentioned, the Bell Beaker material in Sicily has long been known to archaeologically resemble those in Iberia. There are nuances however, as non-L2 subclades like Z56, Z193 dominate in Liguria and Tuscany and have a connection to SE France and Switzerland. Even L2 in Italy seems to be divided between old Italian/Swiss ones that are not really seen elsewhere and likely separated early on during the Bell Beaker period (my sub-clade included) and younger L2 that may have been brought through successive waves (Urnfield, Celts, Germanics). Like everything else with aDNA, it's complicated.''

True, however the presence of Beaker sites during the actual BB period suggests otherwise. Granted Tuscany is a focal hot-spot, but south of that is meagre - looks like the occasional exchanged pot. In East-Central and SE Italy, it is almost non-existent. So i doubt that actual BBs Italicized Italy, it was something which occurred during the MBA. This is supported by the presistence of non-R1b-M29 lineages in peninsula Italy during the E-MBA. Polada always looked like an old Alpine stilt house culture, but I would guessed a more prominent dominance by R1b- regardless

Rob said...

''Polada always looked like an old Alpine stilt house culture, but I would guessed a more prominent dominance by R1b- regardless''

This is probably unclear. Meant to say, although Polada looks like it inherited 'old European' (specifically 'Alpine lake-dweller') traditions, I would have guessed that by 2000 BC in northern Italy, R1b-M269 would have become a dominant patrilineal faction, but apparently not , at least not from the current evidence. But signifcant autosome-wide admicture had occurred

Gaska said...

@Rocca

Do you know the dating of these BB culture samples? The ones we have from Parma are very late (around 2000 BCE), and like the Sicilian ones, they have their origin in Iberia, just take a look at their mtDNA.

T2b3@151-Iberia, Humanejos, BB culture–I6539 (2.251 BCE)
T2b3@151-Francia, Saint-Martin-la-Garenne, BB culture-SMGB54-R1b-L151 (2.239 BCE)
T2b3@151-Italia, Via Guidorossi-Parma, BB culture-I2477 (2.065 BCE)

In fact the Parma BBs can be modeled perfectly with Iberia southwest Chalcolithic. This shows that during 500-600 years there were thousands of small population movements between the different BB regions, some of them originating in Iberia.

1-Now it seems that more BB samples are going to be published, some of them with origin in Germany, Bohemia or Hungary. This is the least important, they could have been Swiss, French or Spanish because this culture moved continuously not only following the course of the rivers, but also sailing the known seas. What is important, and I don't think that neither you nor any Italian archaeologist can deny it, is that the BB culture in Italy was a residual phenomenon. Demographically it is impossible for it to impose its language on the non-IE Italian languages. L2 already appears in small quantities in Terramare and then increases considerably in number during the Etruscan period but in my opinion they are acculturated R1b. Why would the situation be different in Lazio, Campania or Apulia? the L2 who arrived there had to cross the Etruscan territory and live with the G2a-L497 for hundreds of years, I do not think they brought the Italo Celtic to Italy. So in my opinion, whatever language was spoken by R1b-U152>L2, I believe that this lineage did not have the capacity to impose it on the Italian peninsula.

2-On the other hand, the Balkan migrations that reached the Veneto and northern Italy in the early Bronze Age are well documented. Through there also R1b-U152 entered Italy and joined Terramare, but after seeing the overwhelming presence of G2a-L497, I think those lineages would be a minority.

CGG2_022253 (1712 BCE)-Mereto, Udine, Friuli, Venezia, BA_Italy-R1b-U152-Yediay, 2024

3-The Etruscans like any other European culture of the Iron Age is already a mixture of local, Central European, Iberian and Balkan uniparental markers, so it is very difficult to find out which markers were the original speakers of the Etruscan language because, if we consider the quantity R1b-U152 would be responsible, but if we consider the origin of the Etruscan culture and the antiquity, G2a-L497 would be responsible.

4-And of course, genetics has confirmed the Balkan migrations to Picenia & Apulia, so the possibility that Latin also came from the Balkans is open. When we have more Latin genomes we will know because for the moment Z2103 and L283 did not exist in Italy in the Bronze Age.

Gio said...

@Gaska

"T2b3@151-Iberia, Humanejos, BB culture–I6539 (2.251 BCE)
T2b3@151-Francia, Saint-Martin-la-Garenne, BB culture-SMGB54-R1b-L151 (2.239 BCE)
T2b3@151-Italia, Via Guidorossi-Parma, BB culture-I2477 (2.065 BCE)"

Always the same method, and we don't know how deep is his inferiority complex of this 3/4 Basque (but if I remeber well 1/4 Italian).
Is he speaking for Basque or for Iberians? I didn't dislike and don't dislike Basques, in fact I wrote that their origin is above all from the Alpine/Caucasian group based on the hg. I2a-M223, and the residual I-M26 in Sardinia and a little in continental Italy and also in Basque. Perhaps also I1*, in fact so far the oldest aDNA has been found in Iberia.

Also the mt haplogroup T2b3-C151T seems older in Iberia, but we don't understand why the YFull tree gives a formation at 3800 ybp and a TMRCA at 2900 ybp and to ON496939.1 from Parma, Italy, an age of 2450 ybp, and to MF991443.1 and MF991444.1 from Spain 6980 ybp (but also MF991439.1 from Morocco 5665 ybp). When I wrote tons of letters to YFull by saying that their trees were wrong and above all the mt tree because they didn't take into account the eteroplasmies!

And I remember to Gaska that I-M223 was in Italy, and only in Italy, between 20000 and 10000 ybp.
And the haplogroup T2b* (and T2b24* is the haplogroup of my grandchildren of a Flemish mother) has nothing to do with Iberia.

silky said...

just because you disagree with it doesn’t mean its coping lol

Rob said...

@ Ethan

“Anyway, HF found the page for the Kultepe study:
https://search.trdizin.gov.tr/tr/yayin/detay/1259979/kultepe-kanis-toplulugunun-biyolojik-ve-sosyal-yapisinin-multidisipliner-bir-yaklasimla-analizi”

No amount of back-crawling will change the fact that HurrianFan is a retarded Lazarides fanboy wallowing in Fraudarchivist

You & Norfern should also stop embarrassing yourselves with your silly CHG kvetching

Shomu said...

@Rob Everywhere these vile and treacherous Laziridis fans...

Rob said...

Yes arsen we know you love Lazarides, you are after all related, and share the same IQ

Shomu said...

So, a fragment of pottery found in the Zilyan-Kazmalyar burial ground, tentatively dated to the period from the mid-4th to the early 3rd millennium BCE, closely resembles ceramics from the burial site of Shahr-i Sokhta in southeastern Iran.
Such finds may support the existence of close contacts between the population of the Caspian region and southeastern Iran as early as the Early Bronze Age.
This is a new burial ground, which is being excavated by a guy named Askerkhan
https://t.me/AskerkhanProDagestan/845?single

Moesan said...

'm late and stay in a general statement, sorry:
If Y-R1b V88 or their closest ancestors could have sejourned in Italy during LGM before re-expanding northwards after, their ancestors came from East, and concerning the L23 bearers I think they formed somewhere in Central or Central-Eastern Europe (rather East the Carpathians) and here again, their ancestors were come from East ( I prefer a northern route to a southern one through Iran and Anatolia, todate).
Concerning Italics, the north Balkans hypothesis is not new. I think that some specific phonetic traits compared to other "north" western IE languages speak for a Central European or even southeastern European influence (substrata? mixing of elites? more during Urnfields?). I have not at hand the geographic precise subclades distribution of Y-R1b-U152 but if post-BB passed into Italy across the Western Alps I think they were the ancestors of the Ligurian elite (soon very admixed with local postNeolithic pop's) maybe part of the Northern Terramare.
In my mind, true Italics formed more East (Austria N-Croatia) in contact with ancestors of Rhaetians and Etruscans on a side (Y-G2a+...)and with some other pop (Hungary < Central Balkans? Y-E1b-V13 + Y-J2b+...?); What says archeology at the dawn of IA : cultural exchanges westwards AND eastwards at those times between Alps and Carp. Bassin?

Shomu said...

Here is another photo from the Zidyan-Kazmalyar burial ground, they say there are many human remains there
https://t.me/c/1596350457/1503

and also Mitagi (Dag Ogni) burial ground of the Eneolithic period (photo taken from the NTV channel report)
https://t.me/insituteofhistory/2212?single

Rob said...

Iron Age is far too late for Italics.
# post-Beaker groups from southern Germany & Austria
but not Tumulus culture, Urnfield, etc

Shomu said...

Facial reconstruction of a Late Bronze Age man from Ginchi, Dagestan.

The Bronze Age inhabitants of Ginchi were primarily Kura-Araxian, with varying degrees of additional Catacomb ancestry. They are direct ancestors of the Northeast Caucasian peoples.
😨
https://x.com/Sulkalmakh/status/1947679772651221289

Copper Axe said...

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.ads8179

After years it seems we finally got the Middle Don Scythia samples! I respect the attempt, and welcome the data, but unfortunately this was not a good article in my opinion. Great timing though as I am currently working on the upconing parts of my Origin of Scythians series.

Shomu said...

Hello Copper Axe, I know you are an expert in all these Scythian Alanian Sarmatian peoples, but how did haplogroup E-CTS2001 get to these nomadic tribes of the Iron Age? from the Balkans?

Shomu said...

@

https://genarchivist.net/showthread.php?tid=742&pid=56404#pid56404

Davidski said...

@All

Here are some G25 coords for new Iron Age and Medieval samples from Croatia, Germany, Poland and Ukraine.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Qzqt1b43Eo9et8i858N4gdQQ-DiL9XbJ/view?usp=drive_link

The paper hasn't been published yet, but the abstract at the link below claims that there was an >80% population replacement in Poland from the Iron Age to the Middle Ages, from a Scandinavian-like genetic profile to a Ukrainian-related one.

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB81250

But the really surprising thing for me is the large number of Southern European-like samples from Germany.

Rob said...

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.ads8179

Yep awesome samples but the writing could do with a polish. If some of their models have 'Ethiopian' admixture, could be concerns about the data. Bit hard to discern their color-coding fig 4A for their qpAdm (too many green colours)

The middle Don Catacomb are I2a-L701, whilst the LBA Srubna group are R1a-Z93. Makes sense, although we generally 'expect' R1b-Z2013 in Catacomb, we know both lineages were in Yamnaya, and the paper's F-stats support this.
Scythians seem to be a mix of things. Need some G25 to being looking at it

EthanR said...

Based off the admixture runs, the middle don Catacomb seem to have excess WHG, similar to lower Don Yamnaya/Catacomb.

An upper Don Catacomb sample from Ksizovo we already know to be I-L699 so this isn't that surprising. Another Catacomb sample from the Koban region is placed upstream, at I-CTS10057.

Interestingly, there is a culturally undefined sample in the paper with a Catacomb profile and I-L801, perhaps from contact with GAC.

Shomu said...

here is the report itself about these 2 monuments. Bronze Age and Eneolithic. only in russian 😥
https://www.ntv.ru/novosti/2926085

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

@Rob
I don't have any strong opinions regarding CHG

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

This is pretty cool
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.ads8179
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJNA1145302

Dospaises said...

Finally, a paper where they use the word "lie" in the title instead of hallucinate for the false data from AI. Melanie Mitchell, Why AI chatbots lie to us.Science389,eaea3922(2025). https://doi.org/10.1126/science.aea3922

Rob said...

@ Norfern
What group are Pyany Bor associated with ?

Rob said...

@ Davidski

''But the really surprising thing for me is the large number of Southern European-like samples from Germany.'

late proto-historic groups like Alamanni, Baiovari, perhaps Thuringi, had Italo-Byzantine and Balkan admixture, of course lets wait and see when the paper comes out where these individuals come and date from

Rob said...

It’s looking like the real historical Black Sea Scythians predominantly derive from Srubnaya or Andronovo. The G2, J1 and J2 haplotypes might relate to Koban (Cuacasian) admixture

I have tended to see “Altai Scythians” as a modern scholarly invention. Yep, these are the guys most think are “Real Scythians.
Fake

Shomu said...

@Rob
"The G2, J1 and J2 haplotypes might relate to Koban (Cuacasian) admixture"

you are absolutely right all these haplotypes are found mainly in modern Circassian and Abkhaz Adyghe peoples. literally they are in the Abkhaz Adyghe branch, that is, some of the groups of the Western Caucasus influenced the formation of the Scythian peoples

https://t.me/circassianftdna/6611

Shomu said...

i asked the admin of the circassian dna project why among the ancient samples of the scythians and sarmatians there are mainly haplagroups that are characteristic of the peoples of the western caucasus, but at the same time either they are not found at all or in very rare quantities, you can literally count them on your fingers, those haplagroups that are characteristic of the people of chechnya and dagestan. he answered me that the western caucasus was in direct contact with the srubna culture, with the steppe world. some dolmens were discovered far from the caucasus mountains in the steppe region.

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

@Rob
They're Permians

Rob said...

Only issue is some of the 'Kharkiv Scythians' from Saag et al are undated, and are probably just Alans based on PCA position. So careful checking needs to be done with the new data.

Either way, it is in 'Cimmerians' that there is Saka affinity, Scythians are west shifted in compariso, they obviously do not come Tuva / the Altai.

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

@Rob
While they may be genetically derived from these groups partially, when do you think that they began to speak East Iranian as opposed to para-Indo-Iranian? Proto-Iranian ventured further south after all

Rob said...

@ Norfern
''While they may be genetically derived from these groups partially, when do you think that they began to speak East Iranian as opposed to para-Indo-Iranian? Proto-Iranian ventured further south after all''

Not entirely sure, but East Iranic could have developed amongst the groups which remained in the central steppe after (1) Indo-Aryans moved south (perhaps taking the mountain route ~ 1500 BC) and (2) proto-West-Iranians moved into Turan and Iran ~ 1000 BC, in the context of cultural interchange between Andronovo and post-BMAC groups.

I get that the Tuva-Altai region is culturally prominent within the Scythanoid complex, but Scythians don't 'come from there''. What really ties these various groups (incl Sarmatians) is Srubnaja-Andronovo ancestry. The east Kazakh-Altai 'Scythians' might have at least in part, spoken a form of para-Yenesisian. Moreover, the earliest historical references to Scythians (and Cimmerians) comes from their raids in Anatolia, via Assyrian and Akkadian sources c. 650BC. The Greeks and Medes then learned this term and used it to refer to various 'barbarians' beyond their frontiers, after the fact. I doubt classical historian knew about the so-called Altai Scythians, the latter have been termed as such due to modern back-projection.

The appearence of 'east Scythian' ancestry in the Black Sea region is set at 900 BC (during the allegedly 'Cimmerian' horizon), making these individuals as old as the Tuva 'Scythians'. The actual impetus for this phenomenon are Karasuk outliers, and I doubt they were even IE-speaking. When we then look at 'classic Scythians', their genomes are shifting westward.

Issue is we don't have many Black Sea steppe Scythians, the Zaporizhzhia Scythians from Saag are the closest, thing. But they are not C14 dated, tentatively dated to 350 BC, and they essentially look like Sarmatians. Perhaps the new data might be helpful. But if we really want to know who the 'earliest Scythians' were, we need to sample north Caucasian Scythian kurgans (e.g. Kerlemes) instead of fooling ourselves about eastern Kazakhtsan & Aldy-Bel

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

Well the paper I linked earlier does have those Scythia South guys from the 7th century.

Moesan said...

@Rob
Italics
I agree Italics didn’t form at IA. We can presume they were the result of an evolution begun at LCA/EBA from a common BB background shared with ancestors of Celts, Ligurian, and other faded western IE dialects speakers, substrata kept aside. It seems they kept more ties at the lexicon level with more central regions, so with speakers of future Germanic and even Slavic, spite their phonetics is original. The question is that we have traces of something ‘Italic’ in Italy only at IA even if we can suppose some Italics were already in this country a bit before. At the linguistic level (late enough written elements), something meta-Italic has been spoken spanning Italy and N-W Balkans, encompassing Latin-Faliscan, Osco-Umbrian (and subdialects), Venetic and Liburnian, with possible twigs as southern as Greece. It’s why I prefer a rather eastern region of differen-ciation/genesis for the Italic dialects and not a typically southern one. Noricum/Pannonia (southern) are good pretenders I think. N-E Italy seems a good point of entrance, and their coming into Italy could have been rather late.

Simon_W said...

@Dospaises "Let's stop calling lies hallucinations. They are lies. AI lies." IMHO lying presupposes an intention to deceive. Does AI have an intention like this? I don't think it has any intentions at all! Maybe instead of hallucinating it would be more appropriate to speak of bullshitting.

Rob said...

@ Moesan
I think the Italic-like stratum in northwest Balkans is a later phenomenon, and not the root of Italic propper. Croatia_EIA is shifted 'west' compared to Cetina MBA. So I think there was a movement from central-west Europe into Western Balkans even before the Celts, and this led to the final formation of Illyrian groups; with Cetina being pre-proto-Illyrian

@ Norfern
Yes I saw the paper you & CopperAxe linked. Soome funky models in their ' 'Scyth South' as Krasnoyarsk _BA (as in Yakutia_LN), Sardinia_BA + middle Don Catacomb seem quite off, and historically non-sensical.
High levels of Mbuti and Ethiopia in others is worriesome

As long as we have some workable data there, the 7th century samples from Dnieper steppe & NW Caucasus will clarify things for sure.



Shomu said...

The Maeotians – Ancestors of the Adyghe

The Maeotians (Maeōtae) were tribes that lived in the 1st millennium BCE along the eastern and southeastern coasts of the Sea of Azov. Ancient authors referred to the Sea of Azov as Maeotis. In the 4th–3rd centuries BCE, some Maeotian groups became part of the Bosporan Kingdom.

There is limited ancient DNA data on the Maeotians, but in a recent study on Greater Scythia, two Maeotian samples fall into the Caucasus genetic cluster. Maeotian individuals who lived geographically close to the Scythians displayed a genetic profile distinct from the latter, aligning more closely with ancient populations of the Caucasus region than with steppe-associated groups.

The question of the ethno-linguistic identity of the Maeotians remains debated, but they are often associated with a symbiosis of (proto-)Adyghe peoples and certain Indo-Aryan and/or Iranian tribes of the Azov region.

O. N. Trubachyov, Doctor of Philology, believed that the Maeotians spoke a relic Indo-Aryan language (like the Tauri).
The connection between the name of the sea and the people was already understood by the ancients. The people were named after the sea, not vice versa. There is some certainty that the Sindo-Maeotians were not Adyghe, although they may have come into contact with the ancestors of the Abkhaz-Adyghe language speakers of the Western Caucasus.

Adyghe etymology by L. Lopatin: Maietis, Maiotis—"Sea of Azov" comes from Adyghe *Mei* ("stench") and *jam'e* ("swamp, slime, puddle") — a theory that has since been discarded by linguistics.
The direct identification of the Sindi, Maeotians, and Adyghe, as accepted in some modern literature, needs to be reconsidered.

The Great Soviet Encyclopedia, on the contrary, stated: "Some of the Maeotians were linguistically related to the Adyghe (Circassians), and others were Iranian-speaking."

The Cambridge Ancient History classifies the Maeotians as either of Cimmerian origin or native Caucasian peoples.

Ivane Javakhishvili noted that many names preserved in epigraphic monuments from the Maeotian era in the Bosporan Kingdom have a distinctly Adyghe appearance.

Herodotus wrote:
The Scythians expelled the Cimmerians from Europe and pursued them into Asia, and later invaded the land of the Medes. From Lake Maeotis to the river Phasis and the land of the Colchians is a thirty-day journey on foot.

Strabo wrote:
Among the Maeotians were the Sindi themselves, and the Dandarii, Toreatae, Agri, Arrechi, as well as the Tarpetes, Obidiaceni, Sittaceni, Doschi, and others. Included among them were the Aspurgians, who lived across a 500-stadia stretch between Phanagoria and Gorgippia. When King Polemon I attacked them under the pretense of a friendship treaty but failed to conceal his true intentions, they outwitted him, captured, and killed him.

B. N. Grakov, a leading Soviet Scythologist, considered the Sindo-Maeotians to be a unified ethnic group:
Their lifestyle and burial customs were so uniform and resembled those of Sindica to such a degree that it is difficult to see them as of different tribal origins. Most likely, they were all Maeotians—distinct tribes that formed separate ethnic and political entities but were nevertheless closely related.

Klaproth wrote:
The Maeotian tribes that inhabited this part of the Black Sea coast during Strabo's time disappeared, giving way to tribes of Circassian and Abkhaz origin.

Thus, it is quite plausible that the Sindi and Maeotians were Indo-Aryan tribes (we follow Trubachyov’s theory) that were eventually absorbed by (proto-)Abkhaz-Adyghe peoples. However, given that some Maeotians were settled, it is also possible that they initially assimilated part of the Caucasian population of Abkhaz-Adyghe origin.

Shomu said...

**Sources:**
1. Herodotus, *Histories*
2. Strabo, *Geographica*
3. Cambridge Ancient History
4. Great Soviet Encyclopedia
5. B. N. Grakov – leading Soviet Scythologist
6. Ivane Javakhishvili – Georgian historian
7. O. N. Trubachyov – Doctor of Philology
8. Julius Klaproth – German orientalist and ethnographer
9. L. Lopatin – linguist
10. Recent genetic studies on Greater Scythia (e.g., Krzewińska et al.)

Rob said...

@Moesan- but yes, I’m with via northeast route

Steppe said...

something interesting

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.ads8179

Shomu said...

@Steppe
Yes, I am discussing the conclusions from this article, Copper Axe shared the link above.

Anonymous said...

Neo OITards on Twitter are making another crackpot theory that L657 was actually brought by Scythians since this new paper has two Y2 samples.

Steppe said...

@ Shomu

Very interesting study. Now we know where fructose intolerance came from for the majority of the West Eurasian population and, to some extent, also the tendency towards bronze-coloured skin due to UV radiation. However, other factors, genes and cultural groups obviously also play a role. I am a bit surprised that there is hardly any fructose intolerance among Siberian or Central and South Asian ethnic groups, even though they share some genes but of course not others!

However, the secret of the Budini has been revealed, a Baltic tribe that was in close contact with the Scythian world

It shows the great heterogeneity of the Scythian groups. However, we know that their origin can be found in the Andronovo-Karasuk cultural horizon. However, the Sarmatians are more shifted towards the Catacomb and Yamanya and other few groups are quite "European" with little genetic input from the Altai.

sorry, I have taken a closer look at the study again, it is about the bronze staining of hemochromatos

Steppe said...

Sorry, correction. Further studies on this topic are needed. Archaeology has no reliable attributions to the Budini, and in my book "Royal Graves of the Scythians" by Hermann Parzinger, according to Herdot, the Budini and the Androphagi are considered no more Scythian peoples than the Neuri.

Rob said...

@ steppe
No, Sarmatians don’t come from the catacomb culture. The modelling in this paper is a bit of a debacle.

Copper Axe said...

The modeling in the paper is bad as are their historical inferences, which honestly is a shame. I am curious to see if their haplogroup predictions are consistent with what the haplowizards in this sphere will find when looking at them.

When dealing with "early Scythians", its good to keep in mind that the southern Ukrainian steppe between 700 - 600 bc was pretty much a barren wasteland with no nomadic burials or any significant signs of human activity. The Archaic Scythian Culture burials are found in the Dnieper-Don Forest steppe and the North Caucasus, but the historical Cimmerians (and possibly Agathyrsi) also were of this culture so ASC =/= historical Scythians. Going by Assyrians, Greeks and Scythians themselves, the North Caucasus sphere would be were we find the "historical Scythians" in the ASC period.

The earliest Scythian samples we have are those around the 6th century BC such as UKR078, UKR113, UKR105 and most recently, RAM-7. The C14 dates in Saag et al are shifted too old and the sites in this new article have really broad ranges, none of these North Pontic burials featured are from the late 8th or early 7th centuries BC.

Rob said...


@ CopperAxe
They've C14 dated AS30 & AS42 of their (alleged)' ScythSouth'/ Caucsus cluster has a relatively tight confidence interval (774-521 calBC; 772-515 calBC, resp.), so they're early enough.

AS34 from their 'ScythMajor' cluster is C14 dated to 748 - 402 calBC, bit wider. One day I might plot the raw C14 value and see where the 'mode' lies.

btw, 'Historical' Scythians and Cimmerians are probably just simplified labels used by Near Eastern sources of 'nomadic raiders' from the north. One raided central-west Anatolia, the other further east, essentially representing two factions of one phenomenon (e.g. as argued by Ivantchik, Drews, etc). I'm inclined to agree with this view.

Rob said...

@ steppe
here are a couple of models Sarmatians

VolgaSteppe_Sarmatian.SG
Srubnaya_Alakul.SG; Gonur_BA_1; Shamanka_EBA.SG
best coefficients: 0.684 0.200 0.117
tail prob 0.103 SE<5%

In most cases, Khovsgol & Shamaka are inter-changeble for 'Inner Asian' proxy. Curiously, the Kazakh Sarmatians need a whiff of WSHG to 'pass' with qpAdm.

Kazakhstan_Sarmatian_IA
Srubnaya, Gonur_BA_1, Shamanka_EBA.SG, WSHG
best coefficients: 0.65 0.15 0.11 0.09
tail prob 0.31, SEs< 5%

The Tian-Shan Saka have a broadly similar profile, but reversed trends for Shamanka vs BMAC c.f. western Sarmatians (higher Shamanka, lower BMAC). The northern Sakae, Tagar, and 'early Scythian-Cimmerians from the west' lack Gonur/BMAC ancestry, and are just a 2-way mix of Srubnaja-Andronovo & Inner Asian, with the latter component beign quite variable (peaking ~ 50% in 'Kazakh steppe Saka', only ~25% in Tagar). This eastern impulse made it all the way to Hungary (~ 900BC Mesocsat/'Cimmerian' IR-1 (Y-hg N-Y147658, a rare haplotype also present in MLBA Mongolia; Munkhkhairkhan)

If this new data is workable, we will see what the 'early Scythians' from the Caucasus and Dnieper steppe look like

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

I wonder if some of the "Scythians", especially further away from the Pontic-Steppe, actually continued to speak Indo-Iranian languages instead of East Iranian. Such as Tagar culture.

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

@Rob
Perhaps try Okunevo

Copper Axe said...

@Rob

Ivantchik certainly does not argue that Cimmerians and Scythians are just simplified labels from Near Eastern descriptions, these were two different political unions of closely related nomadic populations. They had different names for their unions, hence why they are distinguished as Cimmerians and Scythians.

From "The current state of the Cimmerian problem":
"I have already referred to the groundless nature of the assertion that it is impossible to distinguish between the Cimmerians and the Scythians in the written sources. In actual fact the Assyrian texts (like most of the Classical sources as well) are fairly consistent in the way they draw a distinction between the two groups. Indeed, it is only this which enables modern scholars to differentiate between the Cimmerians and the Scythians, seriously to discuss the Cimmerian question and, among other things to raise the question as to the archaeological culture of the Cimmerians. Overall it seems to me that the point of view, according to which the Cimmerians at the time of their invasions of Asia Minor were the bearers of “Early Scythian” culture, remains the most well-founded. It would appear that the historical Scythians were also part of that culture. What we are confronted with are two groups which were very close to each other from both the cultural point of view and also probably the linguistic and ethnic one as well, but which could nevertheless be quite clearly distinguished one from the other. These differences, however, we are only able to establish thanks to the written sources. The differences in the material culture of the two ethnic groups, if they existed, are very difcult to discern, while the individual non-typical features of the sites left behind by the Cimmerians in the Near East can be explained through reference to other factors."

Irdi said...

@Davidski

Surprised to observe that you miss the very important point of Yamnaya being derived heavily from Remontnoye populations, which are undeniably admixed between a Steppe Eneolithic group (itself in possession appreciable amounts of southern Arc ancestry) AND a Maykop-like population.

The very obvious Maykop ancestry in Yamnaya conforms with the model put forward by the Lazaridis/Reich group, and it accounts for all the additional farmer affinity Yamnaya groups have over their Eneolithic ancestors. I would go as far as to propose that Yamnaya and related groups do not carry any "EEF" ancestry whatsoever.

You must make a greater effort at leaving behind your priors and looking at the data in hand through more objective lenses. The more ancient genomes we get the more your theories of a local Eurocentric development seem implausible, simply accept it and move on. Those 2020 models do not quite "cut it" anymore.

You response to me included this sentence: "And no, Yamnaya doesn't have any Iranian ancestry."
Yet I can only answer with yikes!! Did you truly miss the Iranian Neolithic-related signal in Maykop and Progress or the Tutkallian (25% Iranian-forager-like) in Khvalynsk, and naturally Progress and Sredny Stog as well?

Davidski said...

@Irdi

Yamnaya doesn't actually have any direct ancestry from Iran. It has ancestry from various sources that are near and far related to the populations of Iran but have been wrongly assumed to be "Iranian" by many people.

There's really no evidence of a migration from Iran into Eastern Europe that can be said to have impacted the formation of Yamnaya.

Like many people out there, you're a victim of the nonsense published by Reich, Lazaridis and Patterson on the topic over the past decade, including all those stupid arrows on their stupid maps going from Iran into Eastern Europe.

Email Reich, Lazaridis and/or Patterson and ask them whether Yamnaya actually has Iranian ancestry and if migrations from Iran resulted in the formation of Yamnaya and watch them dance around the issue.

Feel free to post their comments here.

EthanR said...

It's Iran that has TTK-like ancestry, not the other way around.

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

What do you think of this sample?
Target: Russia_Marinskaya_IA:MK3001__BC_980__Cov_23.64%
Distance: 2.7110% / 0.02710955
50.8 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
38.0 Mongolia_EIA_SlabGrave_1
11.2 Russia_BA_Okunevo.SG

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

Tutkaul may actually be fully ANE

Rob said...

@ Coppar Axe

Only a naive reading of early historical sources would believe that Akkadians had a precise ethnographic, cultural and DNA knowlegde of Scythians vs Cimmerians

Nevertheless, you are strawmanning, given that I surmised just as Ivantchik, who said -> ''Overall it seems to me that the point of view, according to which the Cimmerians at the time of their invasions of Asia Minor were the bearers of “Early Scythian” culture, remains the most well-founded. ''

c.f. Rob->''one group raided central-west Anatolia, the other further east, essentially representing two factions of one phenomenon (e.g. as argued by Ivantchik, Drews, etc)''. Their 'distinction' in historical is primarily based on the direction and cirumstances of their raid, not on genetics or cultural traits in the black sea steppe

This is very different to the pseudo-historical defence of Herodotus (that you seem unable to let go of) that Cimmerians existed in the steppe first, then the big bad Scythians came from Inner Asia and replaced them. This has been undisputibaly disproven by aDNA and C14 dating

Copper Axe said...

@Rob

The Assyrians were quite aware of who the Scythians were considering they became allies, and possibly secured marriage ties with the Scythian king Bartatua.

Your explanation of it being "merely circumstantial" is simply not reflected in the primary sources regarding both Cimmerians and Scythians. You would have to explain why groups of Cimmerians are attested in the east around the same time the Scythians were attested. Or why when Scythians were raiding Anatolia, they were not referred to as Cimmerians. Cimmerians are also attested about 40 years prior to the Scythians as they had invaded Urartu in the 8th century BC.

Also, how am I defending Herodotus (or Aristeas) when I am the one stating that both Cimmerians and Scythians were archaeologically represented by the Early Scythian culture? There is no ESC east of the Volga and outside of some spare burials there is no Chernogorovka-Novocherkassk presence there either, thus by default archaeology does not support some "crossing of the Araxes" event (which does not relate to "Inner Asia" but refers to the Volga river). But this has nothing to do with Scythians and Cimmerians being distinct groups. Several populations can express a single material culture and two genetically identical populations can have different ethnic/political identities. It is precisely what Ivantchik suggests regarding these two.

Shomu said...

@Irdi
the entire Iranian Neolithic trace in the populations you listed is associated with local North Caucasian hunter-gatherers, they have nothing in common with Iran. unless they are partially descendants of Upper Paleolithic hunter-gatherers of the Middle East. including Zagros, but what does Iran have to do with it? it's the North Caucasus, not Iran

Shomu said...

@Norfern-Ostrobothnian
no, tutkaul was not completely ANE, completely ANE were Afontova Gora, Malta
@EthanR
iran received ANE ancestors before the glacial maximum. they were not like tutkaul, tutkaul are late migrations, possibly at the beginning of the Holocene

Steppe said...

@Rob,

I didn't say that the Sarmatians descended from the Catacomb culture, only that they shifted more in that direction, meaning a migration from the Altai - Volga / Ural region, which ended up in the Pontic-Caspian steppe with additional input. The advantage is definitely that we will get even more genetic material from the Eurasian steppe because the dry climate favors it!

Rob said...

@ Copper Axe
Well maybe my comment was not clear enough, but I did not say Scythians and Cimmerians are 'circumstantial', what I said is they are simplified terms. Im not being cute or 'post-modern' here, but whatever. The main point is that historical early Scythians and Cimmerians both were part of the broader 'Early Scythian' culture, on which we agree.
My quibble is not qith Herodotus per se, but modern scholarship which has created a false classifcation based on his view that Scythians came after Cimmerians.

'' Several populations can express a single material culture and two genetically identical populations can have different ethnic/political identities. It is precisely what Ivantchik suggests regarding these two.''

Hmm not sure about that. Ivantchik getting too post-modern there :)
Beyond some broad brush 'archaeological cultures', if a group shares material culture, then it is a deliberate act of depositing goods to display 'in-group' identity


Rob said...

@ Norfern
Thoughts ?

Tutkaul
AfontovaGora3
tail prob 0.010

Tutkaul
AfontovaGora3 + Iran_GanjDareh_N
best coefficients: 0.899 0.101
tail prob 0.348


@ Arsen
CHG + 'Iran N' have a common origin, just after the Ice Age.


Rob said...

@ Irdi

''The very obvious Maykop ancestry in Yamnaya conforms with the model put forward by the Lazaridis/Reich group,''

Here's Yamnaya
Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
PG2004; Ukraine_N; Hungary_EN_Starcevo_1
best coefficients: 0.795 0.115 0.090
tail prob 0.34
(incl. Iran_N in pRight)

Yes, some of the so-called 'Steppe Eneolithic' from the Kuban steppe have Farmer ancestry of the non-European type, and maybe even Yamnaya has some direct ancestry from Majkop, but their 'southern Farmer' ancestry is from Shulaveri-Shomu groups, not Zagrosy Farmers para-gliding.
In turn, Shulaveri Farmers derive from PPN groups in eastern Turkey and NW Iraq + some local CHG
Heck, by 4500 BC, Iran N didnt even exist any more, they had shifted significantly into something new. You need to move past 2015.

Car said...

@Steppe
"Very interesting study."

Well, that's bearable. Another group of researchers (Vdovchenkov) determined that the Sarmatians are connected with Asian metapopulations, and the Meotians with European ones :D In general, the authors should not bother with useless phenotypes predictions. Thus, the ancestors of the Udmurts are dark-skinned!, dark-eyed and dark-haired, one Scythian is red-haired, dark-eyed and dark-skinned! The Semilukians (except one), which close to the Russians and Mordvins and have a high Baltic region BA ancestry, are dark-eyed, dark-haired and swarthy.

Rob said...

@ Copper Axe
btw this is what Robert Drews wrote in Riders.., from which i summarised
(and apologies to BLog for text dump)

''The Skythians and Kimmerians of the seventh century BC were not, it seems, the migrating nations that Herodotos makes them out to be, but the first of the riding raiders, who capitalized on their skills to plunder and terrorize communities scattered over much of the Near East. Neither Herodotos himself nor the many people among whom he made his inquiries had direct experience with riding raiders,...

The area dominated and plundered by the Skythians, according to Herodotos, was all of Upper Asia, which is to say all of Asia east of the Halys river (today the Kizihrmak, in north-central Turkey). Herodotos’ sources recalled that at the very same time that the Skythians were lording
it over Upper Asia, the people of Lower Asia—the land to the west of the Halys, most of which was ruled by the Lydian kings—were suffering from the violence of the Kimmerians.

Whether Iškuzāi (Scythians) and Gimirrai (Cimmerians) were two groups of raiders, or whether these are merely two different names applied to the raiders, is uncertain. It is remarkable that among so many Akkadian references to the Iškuzāi and Gimirrai, all of them in a context of conflict, not a single text presents the Iškuzāi and Gimirrai either as fighting against each other or as fighting alongside each other. In fact, with one exception the Iškuzāi and Gimirrai never appear in the same text: in scores of tablets and inscriptions the scribe mentions either Iškuzāi or Gimirrai, but not both. For these reasons, and especially because the Assyrian scribes located both Iškuzāi and Gimirrai in the same rather confined territory, to the east or northeast of Assyria, Igor Diakonoff concluded that the names were interchangeable: scribes who wrote in the Neo-Assyrian dialect called the troublemakers Iškuzāi, and scribes writing in Neo-Babylonian called them Gimirrai.
That is not quite correct, as Askold Ivantchik has pointed out: the Shamash interrogations indicate that Neo-Babylonian scribes were just as likely as Neo-Assyrian scribes to use the name Iškuzāi. Ivantchik also called attention to the single text again an interrogation of Shamash—that mentions both Gimirrai and Iškuzāi. Nevertheless, Diakonoff may have been essentially right, because the one text in which both names appear seems to have used them as synonyms. Diakonoff suggested that Gimirrai was a descriptive
common noun, meaning something like “nomads” or “vagrants.”'''

Steppe said...

@car

I think the Scythians looked Europid and Euro-Mongoloid with different gradations of Nordic-Mediterranean, and that also differs according to region and genetic composition, I was concerned about the fructose intolerance

Rob said...

@ Norfern- 'Perhaps try Okunevo''
- for which population ?

Tom said...

Target: Ukraine_Eneolithic_SrednyStog_outler
Distance: 3.6105% / 0.03610537
49.2 Ukraine_Dnieper_N_Mariupol
29.2 Ukraine_Deriivka_N
21.6 Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic

Target: Ukraine_Eneolithic_SrednyStog_high
Distance: 1.4016% / 0.01401565
72.0 Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic
23.2 Ukraine_Dnieper_N_Mariupol
4.8 Ukraine_Deriivka_N

Target: Ukraine_EBA_Yamnaya
Distance: 4.5716% / 0.04571629
77.0 Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic
14.8 Ukraine_Dnieper_N_Mariupol
8.2 Ukraine_Deriivka_N

Target: Russia_Afanasievo
Distance: 3.3821% / 0.03382102
85.4 Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic
8.6 Ukraine_Dnieper_N_Mariupol
6.0 Ukraine_Deriivka_N

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

@Rob
Sarmatians

Shomu said...

@Tom
Target: Ukraine_Eneolithic_SeredniiStih_oHG.AG:I4110.AG__BC_3444__Cov_51.75%
Distance: 2.3158% / 0.02315794 | R3P
39.0 Ukraine_Dnieper_N_Mariupol.SG:NEO302.SG__BC_5378__Cov_93.73%
38.6 Ukraine_CernavodaI_Kartal_C.AG:KTL007.AG__BC_3878__Cov_35.76%
15.6 France_HautsDeFrance_MN.SG:Es97-1.SG__BC_4550__Cov_28.54%
6.4 Ukraine_CernavodaI_Kartal_C.AG:KTL005.AG__BC_3682__Cov_57.30%
0.4 Ukraine_Dnieper_N_Mariupol.SG:NEO507.SG__BC_5421__Cov_24.23%

Rob said...

@ Old Europe

“ here is a post courtesy of genrachivist”

I like you, but you must be getting demented if you think anything from GeneArchivist is is anything other that erroneous, fraudulent or stolen / non attributed

Steppe said...

@Davidski

Why are you surprised that Germans will appear with southern European results? We have to consider that the Limes in what is now Germany existed for several centuries and that provincial Roman populations certainly settled on the left half of the Rhine, or that there was a return migration of Germanic groups from the Pannonian region. What do you think?

Shomu said...

this Scythian sits right on the branch where the Bukharan Jew, Indian Jew, Mountain Jew Armenian (probably of Assyrian roots) are, this is a purely Semitic Jewish branch
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT256515/

Carlos Aramayo said...

@Davidski

Here are new archaeological and textual arguments to redating Mitanni's kings:

https://tinyurl.com/44amcn9w

New dating would be starting around 1250 BCE. What's your opinion?

Kirta could be the first king, and his wife Lady Hry. Their son, Suttarna I (r. 1185- 1154 BCE) !!!
What the genetic implications to Indo-Aryans could be?

Davidski said...

@Carlos

Right, so that's at the tail end of the Sintashta-related expansions into Asia and around the time of the Bronze Age collapse in the Near East (~1200 BC).

Seems to make sense, more or less.

EthanR said...

I don't have a strong opinion on adjusting the chronology but I note that the sample ALA030 from Alalakh is carbondated to 1610-1448 BCE and already has Steppe ancestry (in both G25 and McColl/Yediay's IBD mixture modelling) as well as an IBD hits with a contemporary Steppe Iranic and another CWC-related sample.

Carlos Aramayo said...

@Davidski

"Right, so that's at the tail end of the Sintashta-related expansions into Asia and around the time of the Bronze Age collapse in the Near East (~1200 BC)..."

Thanks for your answer, maybe Abashevo is also now more involved in that process.

@EthanR

"I don't have a strong opinion on adjusting the chronology but I note that the sample ALA030 from Alalakh is carbondated to 1610-1448 BCE and already has Steppe ancestry (in both G25 and McColl/Yediay's IBD mixture modelling) as well as an IBD hits with a contemporary Steppe Iranic and another CWC-related sample."

You're right, this sample is earlier, but currently there is also the hypothesis that Indo-Aryans could have been in Western Asia already around 18th or 17th century BCE, in a pre-Mitanni period. I think Guus Kroonen suggested it in 2018, in a Supplement to Kristian Kristiansen et al. paper that year. Jasper Eidem (2014) previously mentioned something simmilar, regarding the word marianim:

"...Leilan letter L.87–887, sent from Kirip-sˇerisˇ to Himdija, and with reference to a journey to Babylon to visit the 'king'. Presumably the letter dates to the very end of Zimrı ̄-Lîm’s reign, or shortly after the fall of Mari. The soldiers exchanged are described as s·a ̄b ma-ri-ia-nim /s·a ̄bı ̄sˇa ma-ri-a/ia-nim..."

Shomu said...

where can i find coordinates for KER1 sample from Crimea?

Shomu said...

the outskirts of the village of Chokh, not far from the Chokh site, I took pictures
https://i.ibb.co/TxXwpBPk/IMG-7844.jpg

Rob said...

CHG (+Natufian) was a major source of PPN in East Anatolia

Cayanu_PPN
Pinarbasi; Georgia_Kotias.SG; Israel_Natufian_d
best coefficients: 0.141 0.499 0.360
tail prob 0.43

Curiously, if you swap out CHG for Iran_N, model fails

Shomu said...

because anatolia borders georgia, not iran, idiot

Shomu said...

@Rob
so, if Cayanu_PPN is 50 percent kotias, and the rest is AHG+NF, but at the same time aknashen is itself 50/50 = CIHG/ Cayanu_PPN, then aknashen really has more than 75 percent CIHG? but you yourself just wrote recently that aknashen are in fact Middle Eastern settlers in the Caucasus.....

Shomu said...

try Kotias instead - Iraq_PPNA

Fcv said...

@Rob

“Here's Yamnaya
Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
PG2004; Ukraine_N; Hungary_EN_Starcevo_1
best coefficients: 0.795 0.115 0.090
tail prob 0.34
(incl. Iran_N in pRight)

Yes, some of the so-called 'Steppe Eneolithic' from the Kuban steppe have Farmer ancestry of the non-European type, and maybe even Yamnaya has some direct ancestry from Majkop, but their 'southern Farmer' ancestry is from Shulaveri-Shomu groups, not Zagrosy Farmers para-gliding.
In turn, Shulaveri Farmers derive from PPN groups in eastern Turkey and NW Iraq + some local CHG
Heck, by 4500 BC, Iran N didnt even exist any more, they had shifted significantly into something new. You need to move past 2015.”

How much Shulaveri-Shomu ancestry and Tutkaul ancestry does Steppe Eneolithic has? and didn’t your previous model show Yamnaya had no Shulaveri-Shomi ancestry? I wonder what made you change your mind

Shomu said...

Rob, the admixture similar to Kotias in Cayonu_PPN appeared earlier than Kotias age
https://i.ibb.co/qMvShL2b/1754238931240.jpg

Gaska said...

The new genetic study of Spanish horses is definitive: Iberian uniparental markers survived the Last Glacial Maximum south of the Pyrenees. The genetic continuity of mtDNA C from the Paleolithic to contemporary Lusitanian mares has been demonstrated, as well as the survival of the Y-Chromosome-IBE from the Paleolithic to the Iron Age.

The first DOM2 dates from the late Bronze Age, ergo nothing to do with Yamnaya or the horsemen of the steppes. It was only during the Iron Age that DOM2 became prevalent in Iberia.

Perhaps some genius can deduce the possibility that several horse domestication events occurred in different European regions because the truth is that, at least in Iberia, native horses were domesticated.

EthanR said...

Georgian Kura-Araxes in some cases seemed to be really Steppe-rich and really CHG-rich:
https://i.gyazo.com/ff92775a9a143872a42f9153edde556b.png

Rob said...

@ Shomu

''1.Rob, the admixture similar to Kotias in Cayonu_PPN appeared earlier than Kotias age.
2. so, if Cayanu_PPN is 50 percent kotias, and the rest is AHG+NF, but at the same time aknashen is itself 50/50 = CIHG/ Cayanu_PPN, then aknashen really has more than 75 percent CIHG? but you yourself just wrote recently that aknashen are in fact Middle Eastern settlers in the Caucasus.....''

1. Surely as a Caucasian enthusiast you are aware that Kotias has the same profile as Satsurblia, which dates to 13000 BC ?

2. I don't think there is any contradiction there, just beautiful complexity.
A CHG-like population (which were not yet "Farmers") contributed to the flowering of East Anatolian PPN, the Agropastorlist-Farmer wave then expanded back north toward the Caucasus

Rob said...

@ Ethan
Not sure who did the labelling on your G25 data, but aren't those 'Kura-Araxes' samples with steppe from Georgia actually post-KA groups (Badeni-Markopti horizon) ?

EthanR said...

@Rob The new samples are from the upcoming Skourtanioti paper. They apparently are all from around 3000BC, but the TRB site is only contextually dated and the archeological supplement doesn't provide much detail.
Sample IDs are:
TRB009
TRB010
TRB011
TRB014
KKT002

geo015 is a previously published steppe-rich one.

Rob said...

@ Ethan


TRB is a mass burial pit. The C14 dated individuals TRB11 and and KKT-2 (~ 3000 BCE) look like regular KAx without excess steppe. The undatesdones are shifted toward steppe, and probably represent the later intrusion i suggested above

Skourtianotoi et al could have documented the evolution of the cemetery and shifts in its genetic make-up, had they been bothered to properly date the site

Rob said...

Sorry- Satsurblia is ~13000 BP, not BC

EthanR said...

I'd be surprised if they are later, as they retain the typical K-A J-Z1828
Also one is clearly more similar to Velikent or Ginchi as opposed to being shifted to Steppe EMBA (like TVC, LBA Armenians):
Distance to: GeorgiaKA:TRB010
0.03173849 Chechnya_MBA_Ginchi_(n=1)
0.03412103 Dagestan_MBA_Ginchi_(n=3)
0.03861304 Georgia_EBA_Kura-Araxes_Dzedzvebi_(n=1)
0.04200844 Dagestan_EBA_Kura-Araxes_Velikent_(n=1)
0.04219893 Armenia_EBA_Kura-Araxes_Berkaber_(n=6)

The others have more subtle profiles.

There aren't labels to plot them, but when I manually checked, for the later samples, the MBA Georgians they sampled, ironically, look like typical Kura-Araxans, while by the LBA they look similar to their Armenian counterparts.

EthanR said...

Without having to label everything this is probably good enough.
https://i.gyazo.com/bc78c9fadf3f4c6f85d79fa4426b7a4e.png
And then overlaying the entire new Georgia sample set:
https://i.gyazo.com/1459b38cc81a51415a982cf8d7aaef13.png

The TRB samples are off the cline of everything that comes later, so including MBA and LBA.

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

I think Iranian Neolithic and Caucasus Mesolithic should stop being treated like they're the same group when they're very distinct from one another in fact, even in distal sources. It'd be like treating European Neolithic and Natufian the same.

Shomu said...

@EthanR
everything is logical, J1-Z1842, and mainly its so-called Avar-Ando-Tsez branch (CTS1460, which is most often found in the Kura-Araks) comes from the western mountains of Dagestan, they migrated to Georgia in the Eneolithic, there they multiplied and occupied everything from Iran to the Levant

Rob said...

@ Ethan

However, with qpAdm Geo15 comes out as a 1-way fit with barnyard - Armenian KAx, but perhaps G25 might be more sensitive to fine scale admixture
And with distal modelling Geo15 comes out as CHG (~40%) + Aze (~60%) lowland. No excess steppe/ EHG
I do wonder if F-stat-MDS might be an alternative to PCA; although it might be the case that G25 is more sensitive to picking up minor admixtuer differences

@ Norfern
''I think Iranian Neolithic and Caucasus Mesolithic should stop being treated like they're the same group when they're very distinct from one another in fact''

I think they have some form of convergent history at/ just after the LGM, then drifted apart, minor differences in ANE, 'basal' %, etc. Iran has some quasi AASI in it
Hard to say just how distinctive they are.

Rob said...

@ Fcv

''How much Shulaveri-Shomu ancestry and Tutkaul ancestry does Steppe Eneolithic has? and didn’t your previous model show Yamnaya had no Shulaveri-Shomi ancestry? I wonder what made you change your mind''

It's just acknowleding the limitations and variations with modelling (of whichever modality- qpADM, G25/PCA, ADMIXTURE)- something academic papers often don't tend to do.

We can model Yamnaya as Berezhnovka + some UkrN + EEF, or Piedmont-steppe + Ukr N + EEF

The second would imply trace amounts of Caucasus Farmer in Yamnaya, the first model not. Overall, somewhat irrelevant.

An example of a 'distal model' based on 'Neolithic' components
Piedmont_Steppe1:
Georgia_Kotias.SG + Russia_EHG+ Azerbaijan_Caucasus_lowlands_LN+ Russia_Tyumen_HG

best coefficients: 0.418 0.331 0.112 0.139
SE <6%, tail prob: 0.238

So 11% 'Caucasus Farmer' & 14% 'north central Asian' in Piedmont steppe.
That would translate to 6% in 'core Yamnaya', at best

Davidski said...

The EEF signal in Yamnaya looks quite strong in different types of analyses.

Is Lazaridis still claiming that there's no EEF in Yamnaya?

Rob said...

@ Ethan
However, KAx. Velikent comes out with ~ 20% Yamnaya ancestry. Steppe_EN works also

Shomu said...

yes, this is the steppe Eneolithic
Target: Georgia_Taribana_EBA:TRB010__BC_3300__Cov_80.93%
Distance: 2.1095% / 0.02109543 | R4P
52.0 Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya.AG
19.6 Armenia_Aknashen_N
16.0 Iran_TepeHissar_C.AG
12.4 Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic.AG

Tom said...

Yamnaya can be modelled just fine with EEF because that is the reality of the situation, aligning perfectly with archaeology and linguistics.

https://imgur.com/qrjaYfB

Calvert Watkins (1985, The Indo-European Languages)

“The Proto-Indo-European vocabulary for agriculture, including terms for grains, shows evidence of contact with non-Indo-European speech communities, likely Neolithic agriculturalists in the Pontic region. The lack of etymological connections to known language families suggests these substrates are no longer extant.”

Jaan Puhvel (1991, Journal of Indo-European Studies)

“Certain agricultural terms in Proto-Indo-European, such as those for barley and wheat, display phonological anomalies that suggest borrowing from a non-Indo-European source, likely a Neolithic farming population in the Black Sea region. These substrate languages, unconnected to Semitic or Caucasian families, appear to have vanished without leaving direct descendants.”

Colin Renfrew (2017, Annual Review of Linguistics)

“As Indo-European speakers spread into Europe, they encountered advanced Neolithic farming communities, such as those of the Cucuteni-Trypillia culture, whose agricultural lexicon likely influenced the vocabulary of incoming groups. These substrate languages, lacking parallels in modern language families, were likely lost as Indo-European languages dominated.”

David W. Anthony (2019, Indo-European Origins)

“The Lower Dnieper region served as a contact zone where Cucuteni-Trypillia farmers and steppe pastoralists coexisted around 4000 BCE, exchanging material culture and likely linguistic elements, including terms related to agriculture.”

Alwin Kloekhorst (2021, Journal of Indo-European Studies)

“The expansion of agricultural terminology in core Indo-European, beyond the minimal lexicon of Indo-Anatolian, likely resulted from contact with non-Indo-European farming communities in the Pontic region. The lack of cognates in known language families suggests these substrate languages did not survive.”

Guus Kroonen (2022, PLoS ONE)

“The irregular phonological and morphological properties of the cereal terms reconstructed for Core Indo-European, such as bhar(s)- ‘barley’ and gʷhr̥-n- ‘wheat’, suggest that they were adopted from a non-Indo-European linguistic source… The absence of consistent correspondences with known language families points to a substrate language or languages that did not survive into the historical period. The linguistic data thus support a scenario in which Core Indo-European speakers, located in or around the Northwest Pontic region, adopted cereal terminology through contact with advanced Neolithic farming communities, such as those associated with the Cucuteni-Trypillia culture, which is known for its sophisticated agricultural practices.”

Paul Heggarty (2023, Science)

“The shared agricultural vocabulary in Northwest Indo-European languages points to contact with non-Indo-European farming communities in the Pontic region around 4000 BCE, notably the Cucuteni-Trypillia complex. These substrate languages, which do not correspond to any known modern language families, likely contributed terms for crops and farming practices during a period of cultural interaction.”

Davidski said...

@Tom

Have you spoken to any scientists about this issue, inside or outside the Harvard circle, who agree that Yamnaya is part EEF and has no significant Armenian ancestry?

That's what I'm seeing, but obviously it's very difficult for me to argue this point successfully without publishing a major paper on the topic (and that's unrealistic).

EthanR said...

I mean, in G25 SS mildly prefer aknashen, while Yamnaya prefers EEF.
In qpadm, you tweak the reference pops and can get either one to fail or pass.

I still think an interesting project would be to run all relevant samples in ancibd and see what happens.

Davidski said...

@Ethan

Aknashen will make a lot of models work in qpAdm because it's just one low quality sample.

A decent sample set with at least a couple of high-quality individuals is likely to make it much more difficult to get a passing model in qpAdm.

It's concerning that such an important conclusion was based on one shit sample.

EthanR said...

I think an enhanced version of Aknashen was published with the Harvard paper? Unsure of the coverage.

Point remains with respect to using Remontnoye etc. instead.

Rob said...

I tend to use Azerbaijan_lowland N, which are 2x decent coverage samples, as representatives of a "Caucasian Farmer' component

Davidski said...

@Rob

Is Remontnoye a potentially good source of a significant part of Yamnaya ancestry in qpAdm.

Rob said...

Dave, we can get solidly 'passing' qp models with pretty much any source from the mid-lower Volga to Kuban steppe. Berezhnovka, Remontoye, the Piedmont-steppe group, all work + some additional UkrN + Farmer . W.r.t to the latter, Euro Farmer is more consistently +ve, but Cauc Farmer also passes, depending on the exact set-up

Shomu said...

@EthanR
you will feel sorry if the main origin of EEF in "pit" was from the Neolithic Caucasus? leave something for the Caucasus 🙏

EthanR said...

The enhanced aknashen has 67% coverage.

Davidski said...

Ideally, we need to have more than a singleton for a reliable model.

EthanR said...

Well, the same point is more or less made with the more plentiful Maikop samples, in passing models in both the Harvard paper and the Ghalichi paper. Obviously describing Yamnaya that way is less attractive because it's temporally implausible (if Yamnaya is from SS and emerges ~4100bc) but that just means the relationship (if real) is more abstract.

By the way, there is a section dedicated to trypillia vs aknashen on page 145 of the Nikitin paper supplement.

Kurgan said...

How does Meshoko fit into all of this? Same problem of singleton sample in qpAdm?

If Berezhnovka lacks it, I don't see the reason why Yamnaya has it. Let alone something Armenian or Azerbaijani where no hard direct evidence exists of ever crossing the Caucasus.



Tom said...

No, but I may soon if I have the time. Nikitin did a presentation after the study was completed but before it was released in which he indicated that he believed Cucuten-Trypillia was more important to the genetic formation of the CA/EBA steppe, and Anthony included the culture in his presentation on Yamnaya last year. I imagine there are all sorts of diverse viewpoints that are subsumed by the process. It must be a tricky atmosphere when the lab is led by characters with their own strong, Southern Arc ideology.

Ultimately to me what matters is the concession that Proto-Indo-European emerged on and spread from the Eastern European steppe. Their genetic conclusions are obviously undermined by the fact that the same tool can reproduce wildly different results for the exact same population and that they themselves freely admit the tool is not completely accurate. Rob’s model of Yamnaya with EEF ancestry is easily replicated in G25 and harmoniously aligns with archaeology and linguistics, which attests to Sredny Stog clans becoming increasingly connected to “Old European” communities on the North Pontic from 4000 BC onwards, just when the shift from Anatolian to Core PIE occurred after contact with an advanced agricultural language that is unrelated to NWC, NEC, Kartvelian, or Afro-Asiatic.

So we have arrived at a vindicated Steppe Hypothesis with an open-ended genetic (source/sources of Anatolia_N) and migration (direction of Proto-Anatolian) question, where everyone is free to form their own opinions. The decentralisation of information and tools will mean that these questions remain increasingly open ended and all you can do is use your blog or create a project to put forward your own views.

Davidski said...

What's the latest consensus about Berezhnovka?

Does it have any Armenian or Iranian related admix, even a trace?

If not, then what's the point of claiming that Armenia or Iran might be the Indo-Anatolian homeland. That would mean Berezhnovka wasn't Indo-Anatolian speaking.

EthanR said...

Berezhnovka is like the previous Steppe Eneolithic samples (VJ, PG2001, PG2004) without detectable south caucasian ancestry.

Csongrad and Giurgiulești (suvorovo samples) behave similarly but with a smidgen more EHG.

Davidski said...

Right, so that would mean Suvorovo also not being Indo-Anatolian. Haha.

What's Lazaridis babbling about exactly when he claims that a southern homeland for basal PIE is still preferred?

Shomu said...

what is the genetic origin of the neolithic ceramics of elshanka? where are its ancestral roots? wikipedia writes about central asia, the admixture of the sample from elganka has a small WSHG/TTK admixture, but basically it is minino

Rob said...

@ David ski
“ Right, so that would mean Suvorovo also not being Indo-Anatolian. Haha.”

I actually don’t think these Csongrad-Suvorovo individuals are Indo-Anatolian, they’re Q1- Aralo-Siberians. And that’s not the group that made it to Anatolia.

Tom said...

Just watched this presentation by Nikitin again, which is informative as it post-dates knowledge of the results in the study but pre-dates its publishing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pgJoMUs66w

Some points:

27:48: claims some of his “colleagues” downplay mtDNA and the kinship networks it can reliably establish between regional steppe clans
29:45: Northwest Pontic steppe mtDNA lineages associated with Balkans; Iron Gates HG and local Neolithic farmers (later says these unite clans of Suvorovo-Novodanilovka horizon between Balkans and Azov with later EMBA groups)
39:50: Patterson did in fact do the autosomal modeling of “Nikitin et al.” as theorised by Rob
54:10: believes Sredny Stog influence on local cultures to the west was more extensive than originally thought
54:50: believes contrary to the “group that has been studying Yamnaya origins” there is hard evidence of reciprocal relationships between Sredny Stog and Trypillian communities for millennia
55:20: is convinced that a part of Yamnaya ancestry comes from Cucuteni-Trypillia

So the lead author of the paper wasn’t responsible for the models and has opinions that differ from the genetic conclusions. In simple terms, Nikitin does in fact believe that Yamnaya has EEF admixture, likely as a result of long-term interactions both direct and indirect between a multitude of groups on the North Pontic that eventually led to the formation of Yamnaya on the lower Dnieper.

Also, fascinating how the reference to “colleagues” downplaying the implications of maternal kinship links, even though we know female exogamy was a staple of PIE, mirrors the rejection of Y-DNA and archaeological links that point to the Balkan route for PIA.

EthanR said...

The mdtna lineages shared between the eneolithic steppe and the balkans are from mesolithic iron gates, who moved east during the turn of the Neolithic. None of them are more recent.

It's actually exceedingly difficult to find any balkan farmer mtdna in Steppe EN-related groups or Yamnaya.

EthanR said...

I think ChL Ilipinar may have some direct Suvorovo ancestry but this doesn't really persist and isn't what spread Anatolian in the region.

The question remains as to what Steppe group is responsible for the formation of Cernavoda.

EthanR said...

Obviously Usatovo and Cernavoda serve as exceptions to that observation re: balkan farmer mtdna.

BeefWellington said...

On the topic of what Patterson is and is not responsible for, just after 1:22:00 here Patterson says that he did not work on the modelling for Anatolian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfDHfVJTfDA

Cheese said...

Does any of the three Berezhnovka samples have EEF ancestry? As what are they modelled, I assume EHG with maybe some extra WHG, as their haplogroups are R-V1636 (x2) and I-L699.

Shomu said...

@Cheese
no, Berezhnevka are hunter-gatherers of the North Caucasus, mixed with EHG from the northern Caspian region, there is no South Caucasian admixture, probably even Tutkaul is not needed there, since the North Caucasian CHG were mixed with an ANE-like population (my opinion), I have another question: how long ago did it mix and get a population like Berezhnevka, because we see the influence of the Berezhnevka population much earlier than Berezhnevka itself, I mean Golubaya Krinitsa, all sorts of EHG from the middle Volga, including Elshanka, as if shifted to Berezhnevka relative to EHG

Rob said...

some models for Berezhnovka can be seen in the post image
accordingly, they seem to be a mix of EHG, CHG, and traces of TTK
Curiously, the R1b-V1636 male has some Dnieper ancestry, whilst the I2a-L699 one does not
Might be worth another look

EthanR said...

Yeah, there is one berezhnovka individual who seems to pull toward UKR_N, while the I-L699 individual ironically seems to pull further toward TTK than the others.

When averaged, they are still cladal with PG2004 and SH3001 from the piedmont steppe. All the other piedmont steppe samples seem to have some small amount of south caucasian ancestry.

Shomu said...

a very interesting video about the Caucasus, which tells about the mountains and inhabitants of the North Caucasus from the Caspian to the Black Sea, very interesting footage, and also an excellent narrator
take a look, don't spare your time
https://youtu.be/LkwnrkJMJNQ?si=paDP85SS9z66h7WB

Tom said...

The genetic history of the Southern Caucasus from the Bronze Age to the Early Middle Ages: 5,000 years of genetic continuity despite high mobility

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(25)00802-5?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867425008025%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

Shomu said...

The GPT 5 chat is already out!

Carlos Aramayo said...

@Davidski

Skourtanioti, Eirini, et al., (7 August, 2025). "The genetic history of the Southern Caucasus from the Bronze Age to the Early Middle Ages: 5,000 years of genetic continuity despite high mobility"...

https://tinyurl.com/2jz9pbj4

"...Here, we document the appearance of Steppe ancestry also in all Georgian MBA and LBA individuals, along with the arrival in the LBA of Y haplogroup Z2103 typical of Yamnaya (who pre-date this period by several hundred years; Figure S4C). However, Kartvelian—a non-IE language family including modern Georgian with a hypothetically reconstructed origin to c. 4000 BCE55,56—is found today in the region of our study. Therefore, the expansion of Steppe pastoralist ancestry cannot act as a simple comprehensive signal of language transmission across the Southern Caucasus and does not rule out an earlier IE transmission with the spread of farming ancestry in the Southern Caucasus and from there to the Steppe. Notably, however, we fit more Steppe ancestry gene flow into M/LBA Armenia than into Georgia—despite Georgia’s closer proximity to the North-Caucasian Steppes. Assuming the Steppe hypothesis, this pattern could be linked to the lasting presence of IE languages in present-day Armenia but not in Georgia; however, we caution against overly simplistic interpretations of equating subtle gene flow with language spread. This signal also emphasizes the need for future consideration of potential “pull” factors driving mobility, particularly further south into Armenia, alongside “push” factors—such as deteriorating climatic conditions in the Caucasus-Steppe region—which led to the breakdown of stock specialization and its eventual abandonment in the LBA.8
Although the population history of the BA Southern Caucasus has predominantly been researched in relation to Steppe pastoralist expansions, we also reveal a distinct gene flow from Anatolia accompanying the arrival of Steppe ancestry in the M/LBA. Because no available single ancient source serves as a plausible source for both the increased Steppe and Anatolian ancestry, we propose that two different admixture events shaped the gene pools of Armenia and Georgia. A separate southern gene flow finds further support by the numerous Near Eastern cultural influences in the M/LBA Trialeti culture.57 Together, these two admixtures that shaped the gene pool of the BA Southern Caucasus align with the evidence for cultural diffusion in this region.
Gene flow from Near Eastern populations continued into the historical periods. In Armenia, Levantine ancestry—still present in modern Armenian Highland populations58—aligns with the Armenian kingdom’s southern reach since the 6th century BCE, where this ancestry occurs. Meanwhile, Iberia’s territory extended into northeastern Anatolia, consistent with gene flows more strongly linked to Anatolia and northwestern Iran. These observations suggest that the political influence exerted by successive empires across Southwest Asia, including the Median, Achaemenid, and Sasanian empires, impacted the networks of human mobility and consequently the population genetic structure of both Georgia and Armenia..."

Carlos Aramayo said...

I see today's Skourtanioti et al., (7 August, 2025) shows for the very first time a sample of R1a-Z2124 in Georgia, from a period before common era:

KMR027, Male, Georgia Early Antique, Mtskheta District, site: Kamarakhevi, (600-300 BCE) (450 BCE), HV1a1; R1a1a1b2a2 (Z2124).

Rob said...

a non-Bullshit schematic of IE formation in terms of ancestry and regional groups:

https://imgur.com/a/eziDozI

Shomu said...

@Rob
It is not surprising that in your models Caucasian farmers do not influence anything, but WHG participates in all processes) this is not so. WHG influenced only some Western Caucasian samples, through the Ukrainian Neolithic/Mesolithic

Rob said...

@ Shomu

''It is not surprising that in your models Caucasian farmers do not influence anything''

If you observe the image (which of course is just a quick schematic), it depicts a somewhat diverse nucleus of Ponto-Caspian hunter-gatherers, with some input of Farmers from, both, Europe & the Caucasus. It does in fact depict flow from CF as well, however the latest impact on Yamnaya and CW was from the west. Cernavoda and Sredni Stog are obviously 'western' at core. As a Sanity check, almost all steppe groups have Y-DNA which is deeply of 'EHG' and 'WHG' origin, and minor input from Aral-Siberians (Q1). There is a Caucasian sub-group defined by J2b2 which made a nice in Moldavia and the west Balkans, it might be from CHG or Caucasian farmers, Everything is accounted for.

''WHG influenced only some Western Caucasian samples, through the Ukrainian Neolithic/Mesolithic''

That's correct, it influenced the Dnieper, Don, lower Volga and northern Caucasus, and was 1 of 4 key 'hunter-gatherer' groups

Cheese said...

@Shomu

And what's the deeper origin of the North Caucasus hunter-gatherers?

Kurgan said...

They lived during the Epipaleolithic as hunter-fishers in the Northwest Caucasus adjacent to the Kuban steppe.

They're just a variant of CHG/parallel clade of Kotias/Satsurblia. And honestly, they might not even be close enough to CHG to be called as such.

I don't get why this should be repeated. This has been discussed to the proverbial death on this blog.

Let's wait until we actually get plenty of high-resolution Epipaleolithic/Mesolithic data from the steppe.

So far, it's n=1 and it's the Satanaj guy who's a mundane EHG with R1a and a splash of CHG.

Shomu said...

@Cheese
That's a great question.
the same as the Georgians, the Upper Paleolithic of the Middle East of northern Iran, in the northeastern Caucasus during the LGM, there remained a handful of hunter-gatherers, they differed from the Georgians, although they had common sources that I wrote above, after the Holocene warming, climate humidification, this handful multiplied greatly, and some subsequent climatic events in the world and in the Caucasus forced these hunters to leave their lands, along the Caspian to the north of the Volga, where they may have participated in the ethnogenesis of EHG, then migrations in the Neolithic, after a local drought or cooling, some of the cattle breeders - farmers, gave additional Caucasian genes EHG, Kair-Shak, Kara-Khuduk (although this type of ceramics is not associated with the Chokh Neolithic), etc. etc.

but take into account, this is just my opinion

Shomu said...

@Kurgan those who lived in the Kuban steppes during the Epipaleolithic, they were possibly similar to Satanai, who was pure EHG, at least there is a version from Rob, which claims that EHG could have originated in the region of the Western Caucasus / Kuban / Crimea

Kurgan said...

Technically, Satanaj doesn't count as steppe, he was found on the foothills of the mountains.

Rob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shomu said...

@Kurgan
no, Satanay has nothing Caucasian, it is literally pure EHG, without unnecessary impurities, in G25 it only needs Olenyi Ostrov, for qpAdm it is the same
Target: Russia_Krasnodar_N:SJG001__BC_6151__Cov_42.41%
Distance: 1.8340% / 0.01833980 | R3P
93.6 Russia_YuzhniyOleniyOstrov_Mesolithic.AG
3.8 Morocco_Iberomaurusian.AG
2.6 Serbia_Lepenski_Vir_EN

Target Refs Pval
SJG_EHG PES 0,036318773
SJG_EHG Russia_Sidelkino_HG.SG 0,289852325
SJG_EHG Russia_HG_Karelia 0,103065791

Kurgan said...

@Arsen

It's the contact zone. All the relevant Epipaleolithic caves and rockshelters are concentrated there. These sites were connected to the Georgian one's. During the Mesolithic there was a hiatus, pretty obvious what this all means.

Satanaj man was probably part of that chain of interaction one way or another. Though he's relatively young for Mesolithic (c. 6000 BCE).

Rob said...

Satanay is just one sample, but archaeologists were fairly confident that epipaleolithic sites in NW Caucasus are similar to, and derived from the south (Imeretian industry, Georgia). The disappearance of CHG in Satanay might point to a local turnover, with CHG surviving further north in the Volga-Don zone

Sam Elliott said...

Looking at this Eurogenes blog, I see a very interesting comment from Davidski (April 5, 2021) regarding Neolithic and possibly Mesolithic Yamnaya or near Yamnaya genomes along the west Caspian coast and the lower Volga:

Davidski:

“Well, we do have Mesolithic genomes from the steppe, but not from the right places.

It seems that the Progress/Yamnaya-like Mesolithic populations lived just west of the Caspian Sea, probably along the Volga and/or the Caspian coast.

And yes, populations like Kumsay_EBA and Steppe Maykop probably formed when these Progress-like groups mixed with nearby WSHG foragers.

I have seen Pottery Neolithic (that is, forager) samples from the Volga region, and they look like Progress or Khvalynsk samples, so their Mesolithic ancestors couldn't have been much different.”

-end quote

I guess the big questions here are 1.) when do we get see these samples and 2.) in which publication will they appear?

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2021/03/against-conventional-wisdom.html

Davidski said...

I don't have a clue if those samples are now published and what they're called in the paper if they have been published.

I should check that at some point.

Rob said...

I don’t think such samples exist, as I’ve spoken with relevant archaeologists (eg Vybornov). But that’s not to stop us from hope

EthanR said...

re: Satanaj
If the idea is that CHG only arrived in the northwest caucasus area after Satanaj, then it becomes difficult for this not to be accompanied with ANF ancestry (because the timing would coincide with or post-date the neolithization of the south caucasus).
KHB003 and Krivyansky EN seem to have ANF, I'm less sure about Golubaya Krinitsa.

@Davidski
I don't think any samples of that sort have been published at this time.

Shomu said...

Shomu from Georgia
https://i.ibb.co/RT7jJpsm/1754749019046.jpg

Shomu said...

**Sensational Neolithic Discovery in the Astrakhan Sands**

A joint team of archaeologists from Samara (SGSPU) and Astrakhan (“Archeocenter” LLC and the “Heritage” Scientific Production Unit) has made a groundbreaking discovery.

The Taskuduk site, first found four years ago among the dunes of the Kharabalinsky District by Damir Solovyov, Filat Gilyazov, and Natalia Doga, turned out to be an exceptionally well-preserved Neolithic settlement, about 7,700 years old.

Unlike many other Stone Age sites, its cultural layer remained virtually untouched, providing an unprecedentedly complete picture of ancient life. Excavations revealed evidence of year-round habitation, including the remains of a large dwelling dug 40 cm into the ground with a central hearth. Nearby were fragments of clay vessels used for storing and cooking food.

One of the most remarkable finds was pottery made from lake silt, decorated with unique ornaments never before seen by leading Neolithic experts from Europe and the Middle East. This points to the existence of a previously unknown local archaeological culture in the Caspian region.

Analysis of over 10,000 animal bones indicates a rich surrounding fauna: kulan, saiga, wild horse, aurochs, bison, red deer, corsac fox, and wolf. The abundance of remains suggests successful hunting and plentiful food supplies.

Paleoclimate data show that the site existed during a warmer, wetter period, when the region was a grassy steppe rather than the present-day sandy desert.

https://punkt-a.info/news/novosti-kratko/v-astrakhanskikh-peskakh-arkheologi-otkopali-sensatsiyu

Kurgan said...

@Shomu

EHG is by definition part CHG-related, hence a one-way pass with Karelian HG. Y-hg J1 and mtDNA T2a1b1 up north are direct proof.

Vonyuchka carries T2a1b, packed with CHG as well.

Satanaj was a recent arrival, he doesn't have excess CHG on top of what run of the mill EHG's have.

@Rob

I don't think near-pure CHG existed anymore in the region. Satanaj just contributed to the cline between the Black and Caspian seas.

MAD said...

What if Indo-European evolved much earlier, say evolving before, and diverging 8100 years ago according to an international team of linguists and geneticists led by researchers from the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig. How would this hypothesis change this discussion? https://www.mpg.de/20666229/0725-evan-origin-of-the-indo-european-languages-150495-x

Rob said...

@ Kurgan
''I don't think near-pure CHG existed anymore in the region. Satanaj just contributed to the cline between the Black and Caspian seas.
August 9, 2025 at 8:15 AM''

It's hard to say what hypothetical pre-Satanaj north Caucasians HG.
The settlement record in north Caucasus is episodic and not continuious.
However, the Satanaj individual did not generate a cline, but a sharp discontinuity with CHG. Instead, the EHG-CHG cline appears much further north. That leads me to suspect that a CHG rich (almost pure) population lived in northern Cacaus before 6000 BC, perhaps c. 8000 BC E

Shomu said...

@Kutgan
Yes, I know that it is connected, I wrote about this above, that part of the Epipaleolithic hunter-gatherers of the Eastern Caucasus migrated up the Caspian Sea, mixed there with WHG-ANE and then when the glaciers retreated they migrated up the Volga, in fact they occupied the regions of the north of Russia for the first time after the LGM, no one lived there.

https://i.ibb.co/sJ6rzr8Q/IMG-20250715-082350-340.jpg

I took the percentages of proportions based on this diagram

https://i.ibb.co/30rt87Y/zGkRUaFF.png

Ash said...

Is Etruscan related to Hattian and NW caucasian via Haplo G2 and ANF ancestry?


Target: Italy_Tarquinia_Etruscan.SG:ITTQ10.SG__BC_796__Cov_64.76%
Distance: 1.2880% / 0.01288010
66.6 Germany_BellBeaker.AG
33.4 Turkey_Central_Catalhoyuk_N.SG


Target: Italy_Tarquinia_Etruscan.SG:ITTQ8.SG__BC_797__Cov_79.44%
Distance: 1.9147% / 0.01914736
76.0 Germany_BellBeaker.AG
24.0 Turkey_Central_Catalhoyuk_N.SG


Target: Italy_Tarquinia_Etruscan.SG:ITTQ19.SG__BC_856__Cov_86.09%
Distance: 0.9000% / 0.00900038
51.0 Germany_BellBeaker.AG
49.0 Turkey_Central_Catalhoyuk_N.SG


Target: Italy_Tarquinia_Etruscan.SG:ITTQ14.SG__BC_980__Cov_87.23%
Distance: 1.4454% / 0.01445356
63.0 Germany_BellBeaker.AG
37.0 Turkey_Central_Catalhoyuk_N.SG

Rob said...

Some basic models of 'EHG'
- Satanaj 6000bc: 80% ANE + 20% Villabruna
- Karelia_EHG ~6000bc: 85% ANE + 15% VB
- middle Don_HG ~ 5500bc: 60% ANE + 15% VB + 25% CHG

Curiously Samara_HG is ~ 75% EHG + 25% TTK

Somehow early CHG made it to Vorezhneh, but is not present elsewhere before 4500bc

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