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Saturday, January 13, 2024

Romans and Slavs in the Balkans (Olalde et al. 2023)


It's always amusing to see some random Jovan or Dimitar arguing online that Slavic speakers have been in the Balkans since at least the Neolithic.

Obviously, Slavic peoples only turned up in the Balkans during the early Middle Ages. It's just that their linguistic and genetic impact on the region was so profound that it may seem like they've been there forever.

A new paper at Cell by Olalde et al. makes this point well. See here.

That's not to say, however, that it's an ideal effort. The paper's qpAdm mixture models probably could've been more precise and realistic. Genes of the Ancients has a useful discussion on the topic here.

Interestingly, Olalde et al. admit that they can't detect much, if any, admixture from the Italian Peninsula in the Balkans, even in samples dating to the Roman period. And yet, this doesn't stop them from accepting that the Roman Empire had a massive cultural and demographic impact on the Balkans.

I also assume that, by extension, they don't deny that Latin was introduced into the Balkans from the Italian Peninsula.

That is, Latin spread into the Balkans without any noticeable genetic tracer dye, and it eventually gave rise to modern Romanian spoken by millions of people today in the eastern Balkans. This might be a useful data point to keep in mind when discussing the spread of Indo-European languages into Anatolia.

See also...

Dear Iosif, about that ~2%

616 comments:

1 – 200 of 616   Newer›   Newest»
Genes of the Ancients said...

Maybe the spread of Latin in the Balkans could have happened by Rome Imperial like profiles, that would make it almost impossible to detect.

Genes of the Ancients said...

Romanians do show a bit higher than normal Imperial like shift on G25, but its not high enough for most people to realize that there is something going on.

Genes of the Ancients said...

The "Ottoman Turkish" proxy of the study is also sus, the paper claims that it is central Asian mixed but i can't find any models showcasing how much Central Asian admix it has. If i somehow missed their models of Ottoman Turkish then tell me. My qpAdm models don't fail without Central Asian/East Asian despite using Mongolia_North_N in the reference/right pops. It seems that they might have used some very low Turkic mixed sample that is mostly Byzantine Greek and just tagged it as Ottoman Turkish. If i'm wrong then show me their Turkic admix models of the Ottoman Turkish samples they used.

Matt said...

Tested the model from Olalde et al, and I'd say the model from Olalde et al replicates quite well in Vahaduo - https://imgur.com/a/s7yf1Rw

Vahaduo weights postRoman era ancestry slightly less across all the populations, but not to a very large degree.

The questions I'd have about the models are:

1) whether replicating this cline as a set of separate interactions with pre-Roman+Roman+CEE populations generally is simplest.

If you look at the Europe2 PCA in Vahaduo, the modern populations look like they reach between CroatiaSerbia_RomanAnatolian and a point slightly but not very genetically "west" of CEE_EarlyMedieval. So does modelling as a separate of independent combinations of preRoman+Roman+CEE_EarlyMedieval (with a little Ottoman which is hard to distinguish from standard error) fit best?

Maybe a simple isolation-by-distance model with patrilocality (plus some reproductive number distances) will make more sense than a series of independent models that approximate a cline.

2) How confident are we in distinguishing in contributions between preRoman Balkans and preImperial North Italy? Barring y-dna contributions, which are a persuasive argument, but primarily operant for men.

Andrzejewski said...

There could’ve been a scenario in which the incoming Slavs in the middle ages weren’t numerous overall but the Justinian Plague did a number on the indigenous inhabitants in decimating them like smallpox did to the Mayans. It it plausible to tout that without the plague (wiping out the pre-Slavic pop) the Slavs might’ve been assimilated into a see of non-Slavs and Bulgarians would’ve been speaking Thracian today?

Steppe said...

Today's Romanians have a Greco-Romanic admixture but it is probably more to do with Dacians/Illyrians, who also have this component. But of course also the Slavic heritage (half of the genetics) in the early Middle Ages and a slightly smaller proportion of East Germanic tribes, Celts and steppe nomads

Andrzejewski said...

About Anatolian languages, who said that they are dated to 6kya? The earliest attestation to their existence in Anatolia is 1800BCE, and they contains a significant amounts of pre-IE influences on their vocabulary. There was a genetic turnover circa 4000BCE, when EEF were largely replaced by a CHG-rich incoming wave, giving rise to Minoan, Hatti and so forth, and another one about 2000BCE. Isn’t it more sensible to associate Anatolian branch languages with some movement of WSH via the Balkan?

Andrzejewski said...

@Davidski “ That is, Latin spread into the Balkans without any noticeable genetic tracer dye, and it eventually gave rise to modern Romanian spoken by millions of people today in the eastern Balkans. This might be a useful data point to keep in mind when discussing the spread of Indo-European languages into Anatolia.”

Well, one theory could be that the Indo-European elite was gradually decimated by war. It’s similar to the something that I’ve read about the Hungarian Magyar conquerors: the Magyars were supposedly an agglomeration of 7 Ugric tribes and 3 Turkic tribes (e.g the Kabars, a Jewish Khazarian tribe). As it stands, words of Turkic origin are mainly featured in military and state organization realms, pointing to a role not unlike the medieval European armies where the English king and his nobles, dukes and lords were leading the armies in battle and several of them died in warfare.

We see that in the Iron Age King David was at the front of his army, leading the charge on the enemies. During the Classical Era we hear that Emperors Titus and Adrian were at the front ranks of the their armies.

Anyway, the hypothesis here is that the Turkic tribes in the Magyar state fought against strong armies and got mostly eliminated over the year, whereas the Ugric aristocracy was confined to a more clerical and office roles of the bureaucracy.

WHAT DOES IT ALL COME DOWN TO???

—> *The ruling minority elite of the founders of the Hittite State could’ve just died out following wars with neighboring countries, resulting in all traces of Indo-European R1b Surivodo Balkan incomers being deleted from the historical DNA record*

epoch said...

@Andrzejewski

Alwin Kloekhorst made a tree and he has a proper explanation on why he estimated the times available on his website.

https://kloekhorst.nl/Kloekhorst-Anatolian-Olander2022.pdf

Dranoel said...

@Davidski

Can you take a look at sample I35014 from Croatia, dating to 1000 - 1200 AD?
Can you tell if his DNA shows typical Slavic genes, or if he is a Slavicized person from earlier Central European cultures, such as Goths, etc.?
Considering that several centuries have passed since Germanic groups migrated from Central Europe, it is possible that such a study will no longer detect it, right?

Steppe said...

@ Andrzejewski

do a G25 calculator and you will see that today's Romanians have a Greco-Roman component but as mentioned above it is more in the context of Dacians/Illyrian who have a similar component

Andrzejewski said...

@epoch “ Alwin Kloekhorst made a tree and he has a proper explanation on why he estimated the times available on his website.”

Okay. She he may have proven that Anatolian branch has split 6,000 years ago (PIE itself is dated between 6,500-6000 BP!), that may be one thing.

But to take it to a new or different level and champion that Pre-Proto-Indo-European or whatever the nickname of that original language was was created in Anatolia, Iran, Armenia or anywhere outside of the European Steppes, or worse - to claim like Lazaridis has done repeatedly that PIE was a CHG language because allegedly there were no R1b WSH alleles found in Anatolia proper is at the very least dishonest and it does a huge disservice to academic research on the subject.

Proto-Anatolian could have been sprung into action 6kya. Still, the Balkan route is preferable to the Caucasus one. We do know about the Yamnaya Bulgaria/Hungary and in fact, we did verify the presence of Steppe nomads roaming in the Balkans.

To conclude: Anatolian languages are most likely the outcome of a Surivodo/Novodanilovka movement outside the Forest Steppe into the Balkans and then into Turkey. Anything else is pure drivel.

ambron said...

Matt

I see that the early Slavs are located in the Polish-Ukrainian cluster. It is worth recalling the conclusions of previous studies:

"Today's Serbs are a mixture of the autochthonous Balkan genome (up to 50 percent) and Slavic, which appeared after the fall of the Roman Empire, so the migration of Slavs in the 7th century did not lead to population replacement, but to the mixing of our autochthonous and Slavic migrant genomes.
Molecular markers suggest that the migration of Slavs to the Balkans could have come from the territories of present-day Poland and Ukraine.
These are the results of a multi-year study by scientists from the Faculty of Biology in Belgrade, the Institute of Archaeology, the University of Barcelona and Harvard University, based on genomics and the history written in our DNA, who analyzed the skeletons of the local population before the Slavic migrations to the Balkans, after that, as well as the genomes of today's of the Serbian population."

https://serbiantimes.info/veliko-genetsko-istrazivanje-otkrilo-srbi-su-mesavina-slovena-i-autohtone-populacije-balkana/

Rob said...

@ Davidski
The Roman conquest & Romanization was a process of town and fort creation by soldiers of diverse origins. The high-ranks, e.g. centurions, were often more Romanised from the already conquered western provinces, e.g. Gaul. There was probably very little Italian input, apart from the far northwest like Istria and some Dalmatian towns, where some wealth landownesrs actually migrated toward. The majoriy was then provided by pacified locals (some much reduced, such as tribes from the decimated 'Illyrian kingdom' were grouped into just 1 municipium - Doclea), then you get the secondary colonization from the Greek-speaking Mediterranean.

Im not sure what if anything can be learned for Anatolia from Roman Balkans

Rob said...

Also, the 'Roman' individuals here are mostly too old. We would need individuals from early Roman establishments dating to ~ 200/100 BC

Rob said...

@ epoch

Unfortunately, true to his Leiden upbringing :), Kloekhorst believes in Indo-Uralic, places the PIE in Khvalysnk and Uralic in the middle Volga. So that limits the usefulness of his proposals


@ Andrze

Stop with your wishful thinking about Hittites, repeating your uninformed pleas 100 times isnt going to make it happen, you're not Dorothy from Wizard of Oz. The difference with the Hungarians is we have hundreds of conquerer samples with nomadic affinities.

Davidski said...

@Dranoel

I35014 actually looks more eastern than the other samples from Gornji.

But of course this need not say anything useful about his distant paternal ancestors.

He might be part Gothic, but doesn't look like it based on his overall genetic structure.

Andrzejewski said...

@Rob “ There was probably very little Italian input, apart from the far northwest like Istria and some Dalmatian towns”

Bear in mind that nowadays contemporary Italians are vastly different than the “Romans”, being that 20% of “Padania” and Milan has at least a 20% contribution of Longobardians. The Justinian Plague along with the Gothic Wars decimated the population (former cause has also did in the Paleo-Balkanic populations and thus enabled the Slavic prevalence). The Longobardian conquest has sharply shifted the Northern Italian cluster from East Mediterranean shift into a Central European one and basically deleted any noticeable Middle Eastern impact on the preceding population.

Andrzejewski said...

@Rob & epoch “ Unfortunately, true to his Leiden upbringing :), Kloekhorst believes in Indo-Uralic, places the PIE in Khvalysnk and Uralic in the middle Volga. So that limits the usefulness of his proposals”

He sounds like Carlos Quiles, no less.

Davidski said...

@Rob

I'm not sure what if anything can be learned for Anatolia from Roman Balkans.

I think the interesting parallels between the Roman Balkans and Hittite Anatolia is that we're dealing with literate empires in both cases, rather than anything resembling the Corded Ware expansion.

And even before the Hittite Empire, Anatolia was a relatively civilized place and nothing like the Late Neolithic Central and Northern Europe where Corded Ware languages took hold.

Andrzejewski said...

@Rob “ Stop with your wishful thinking about Hittites, repeating your uninformed pleas 100 times isnt going to make it happen, you're not Dorothy from Wizard of Oz. The difference with the Hungarians is we have hundreds of conquerer samples with nomadic affinities.”

So do you essentially side with MIT BROAD on the issue, that since we haven’t tracked down any Steppe ydna in Turkey it means that the Indo-Anatolian hypothesis is valid? They rule out a Steppe homeland based on this hogwash.

And I didn’t mean that the whole Magyar conquerer elite died out: I’ve read that Magyar were both Ugric and Turkic in their origin but only the Uralic (N3c3) uniparental markers survived. The Altaic/“Transeurasian” ones including the Khazar tribes who had converted to Judaism just vanished off the face of the earth, without a scant trace.

Rob said...

@ Davidski

“ I think the interesting parallels between the Roman Balkans and Hittite Anatolia is that we're dealing with literate empires in both cases, rather than anything resembling the Corded Ware expansion.

And even before the Hittite Empire, Anatolia was a relatively civilized place and nothing like the Late Neolithic Central and Northern Europe where Corded Ware languages took hold.”


but I don’t think there’s much comparison between Roman’s and Hittites. The Romans had their own literacy and beaurocracy, the Hittites were a post-Hoc empire. Ie they only created an empire after the processes which led to the establishment Anatolian-IE within Anatolia. So Hittites having literacy is not itself an explantation

Rob said...

@ Andrze

''So do you essentially side with MIT BROAD on the issue, that since we haven’t tracked down any Steppe ydna in Turkey it means that the Indo-Anatolian hypothesis is valid?''

Ind-Anatolian is just a silly term for proto-Indo-European used by woke Twitter academics, it doesnt imply any particular location other than the inherent bias within the term itself.

There's steppe-related, it's I2a-L702 in western Anatolia.
This has been explained before, you should try to remember.

Andrzejewski said...

@Rob “ There's steppe-related, it's I2a-L702 in western Anatolia.
This has been explained before, you should try to remember.”

You should try to convince Lazaridis. This anti-White bias in Academia is beyond belief

Gio said...

Of course we have to find Roman/Latin colonies above all in Italy. I am a Tuscan but genetically above all a Roman than an Etruscan, and also my wife in western Sicily, and with Norman uniparental markers, is as Roman as me. After in Southern France (Provincia/Provence) and in Iberia (Emperors Trajan, Hadrian and writers like the Senecas were Italics) and the "Limes". The colonization of eastern Europe had less impact, if not a cultural/linguistic one. Not only Rumanian, but also Dalmatic and 40% of Albanian derives from Latin and 20% from Greek. Much less from Slavic. If you want to find a people influx from Italy you have to search in the oldest origin of the haplogroups, not only the R1b of Villabruna, but Fichera says now also R-V88 as I supposed 15 years ago and now found above all in the Balkans. I am waiting for R-V1636 and others.


Rob said...

There’s not much to convince about Anatolia as yet: even though it’s a solid lead
So there’s no bias there, the bias is about Europe itself with that populations were constantly replaced by Near Eastern farmers and Iranian pastoralists. This fad has taken hold because it would be only palatable if they accentuated their foreigness, as it fit into the social narratives circa 2015. Others just think they’re reporting big data but they’re in fact engaging in hyperbole

Steppe said...

@ Gio


do a G25 calculation, you will see that the population of the Balkans has a Greco-Roman genetic component and more specifically the Romanians but as already mentioned it is also partly of Dacian/Illyrian origin which has a similar genetic composition. You also have to distinguish between the regions where Roman legionnaires were stationed and where the local population lived. However, it should be noted that many legionnaires were of different ethnic origins (Syria, Iberia, Anatolia, Dalmatians...) and from the 3rd century onwards the so-called "barbarization" of the Romans began Army (especially Germans from different tribes) and also some cities in the Balkans are Roman settlements similar to those on the Rhine (Cologne, Trier...) but also older settlements of Greek colonists from Miletus such as Varna (Bulgaria) or Constanța/Tomoi (Romania) …

Andrzejewski said...

@Gio “ Of course we have to find Roman/Latin colonies above all in Italy. I am a Tuscan but genetically above all a Roman than an Etruscan, and also my wife in western Sicily, and with Norman uniparental markers, is as Roman as me. After in Southern France (Provincia/Provence) and in Iberia (Emperors Trajan, Hadrian and writers like the Senecas were Italics)”

If you check hard, you’ll find out that you are at least 20% Longobardian.

Albanian is from Illyrian.

Assuwatama said...

I can't locate 50% aasi/onge IVCp sample from gonur in your coordinates...has it been removed? Why?

Steppe said...

@ Andrzejewski

the Illyrians influenced the Albanian but the Illyrians were earlier in Dalamatia and ancient Illyria, however Illyrians emerged as an Indo-European speaking group earlier than the Albanians, the Albanians only became evident in the region from the late Iron Age and would have to be as an Indo-European speaking group later migrated and emerged and after Trajan's victory many Illyrians were resettled as workers in Romanian areas such as the gold mines of Alburnus Maior and this also explains the affinity of some words between Albanian and Romanian (Albanian gati ~ Romanian gata 'finished, ready')

Gio said...

@ Steppe

I may agree with you, in fact I said that, from a genetic point of view, the Roman/Italic colonization of the Balkans was much less than Italy and western Europe. I followed above all the uniparental markers than the autosome because I wrote many years ago that it is "come la potta della troia che ognuno la tira come vuole".

@ Andzrejewski

I have a long experience about the presence of Longobards in my region, because with my American relative Doug Leeper we reconstructed the genealogy in common between us from the hamlet of Stàffoli (Pisa). The name is Longobard and many uniparental markers are clearly Longobard (even though also Longobards were largely mixed with Tuscans/Romans already in Pannonia before invading Italy). Of course every people is composed with many components and it is uniform. Took the Ashkenazim of Erfurt 1350 AD, who had 70% Italian, 15% from Eastern Europe and 15% from North Africa, Middle East (with no guarantee that it was "Jewish"), Iran, but they are now an European autosome (look at 23andMe). Of course Longobard autosome varies from hamlet to hamlet. I lived in Romano di Lombardia, and people was "Roman", very different from the nearby hamlet of Fara Olivana, where they seemed "Longobards". I think it is difficult to calculate the percentage in a people. Am I wrong if I say that Turks have no more than 7% of Altaic autosome but 100% the language?
Anyway this is the last letter I wrote to Doug a few minutes ago: "It is interesting the place, Val-viducci, probably from the Longobard name *Wido > Italian Guido/Guiduccio".

Steppe said...

@ Gio

where can you read it “come la potta della troia che ognuno la tira come vuole” , yes, the Italian surname Lombardi comes from the Lombards

Assuwatama said...

Models for Burusho

Kyrgyzstan_TianShan_Saka.SG
Pakistan_Katelai_IA

Burusho
0.01303210
25.4%
74.6%

Or

China_Xinjiang_Abusanteer_IA_oEastAsian
Pakistan_Katelai_IA

Burusho
0.01658733
29.2%
70.8%

Or

Kazakhstan_MLBA_Dali
Kazakhstan_TianShan_Hun_o.SG
Kyrgyzstan_TianShan_Hun.SG
Pakistan_Katelai_IA

Burusho
0.00658172
7.0%
11.6%
2.2%
79.2%

Wonder if Burushaski is a central asian steppe language from botai like groups or Saka-Huna that migrated into India post common era....

Pakistan_Katelai_IA is a dardic gandhari prakrit signal IMO...

What's your take?

Steppe said...

@ Assuwatama


They are confusing here what the Scythian/Saka language is an Indo-European Northeast Iranian language and Dardic is an Indo-European Indo-Aryan language and the Botai language is unknown and the Hun languages ​​are certainly a Turkic language

Rob said...

Illyrian is unfortunately not attsted, apart from personal names and some alleged words via Greco-Roman sources. Albeit the evidence being inadequate, Albanian words do not appear to stem from Illyrian (apart from the adoption of Illyrian names for boys during the Xoxha era). In the northern slopes of the Balkan mountain, there are non-Illyrian non-Thracian inscriptions which could be a source for early Albanian.

ambron said...

We can see that Olalde derives the Slavic migration somewhere from central-eastern Poland.

Assuwatama said...

Some of these Tian shah sakas and huns seem to harbor 30-40% siberian_EBA ancestry...Saka-Huna were quite diverse probably multiple languages were spoken....

Assuwatama said...

Model for Indo aryan speakers near Burusho people...

India_RoopkundA
Kyrgyzstan_TianShan_Hun_o.SG
Pakistan_Udegram_IA

Kho
0.01373854
6.4%
28.6%
65.0%

epoch said...

@Rob

I found the reasoning he did convincing. But then again, I am a layman.

But there is an interesting aspect of this: Does someone being wrong on an issue means he is always wrong? People still refer to James Mellaart on account of Anatolian bronze age and he is a proven fraud. The problem is, he also is one of the best specialists.

Polak_X said...

Pan @Dranoel
Kalkulator na danych Stolarek_2023
Target: Croatia_Gornji:I35014 R1b-z2103
Distance: 2.3357% / 0.02335739 | R5P
40.6 Poland_Lad_Middle_Age
27.2 Poland_Niemcza_Middle_Age Czeski przyczółek handlowy
12.2 Poland_Markowice_Middle_Age
10.6 Poland_Kowalewko_IA
9.4 Poland_Balczewo_Middle_Age

Target: Croatia_TrogirDobric:I26718 R1b-z2103
Distance: 8.0667% / 0.08066719 | R5P
76.8 Poland_Markowice_Middle_Age_oBalkans
13.0 Poland_Pruszcz_Gdanski_IA_oAnatolia_IA
10.2 Poland_Niemcza_Middle_Age


Target: Polska_Kujawiak_współczesny_scaled R1b-z2103
Distance: 0.8053% / 0.00805258 | R5P
36.4 Poland_Niemcza_Middle_Age_oBalkans Czeski przyczółek handlowy
20.2 Poland_Konskie_Middle_Age
17.8 Poland_Plonsk_Middle_Age
17.2 Poland_Kowalewko_IA
8.4 Poland_Ostrow_Lednicki_Middle_Age

Assuwatama said...

Can somebody tell me how to read distances?
Smaller it is ....better it is?
Is a model giving distance 0.006 better than a model giving 0.02?

I mean one can show BMAC or saka ancestry in modern Indians by choosing high aasi sample with distance changing from 0.018 to 0.024

Steppe said...

@ Assuwatama

Most Central and South Asians have their steppe_MLBA ancestry from Indo-Iranians (especially from later sedentary Bacterians, Sogdians..) and Indo-Aryans than from Indo-Iranian steppe nomads like Scythia/Saka/Sarmatians..), for example Kyrgyz have a Scythian heritage (15-20 % ) and Tajiks (but small proportion of around 7%) an East Asian admixture may have arisen in some Indo-Aryan groups from an admixture of Tibeto-Burmese population or from early Indo-Iranian groups which absorbed some Siberian groups in the Andronovo culture and were also Huna ( Iranian Huns) predominantly of local origin (Central and South Asian) who have adopted the lifestyle of the steppe nomads (Scythian, Xiongnu…).

Assuwatama said...

I Wonder....

For now it seems like Swat_IA is a good source to model Dardic groups in North Western regions. For non-dardic brahmin groups it doesn't appear to be a good source population...

Pakistan_Katelai_IA
Turkmenistan_IA.SG

Kalash

0.00856675
78.4%
21.6%

This traditional IVCp + steppe profile probably formed on the perephary and then migrated back in.

Andrzejewski said...

@Gio “ Took the Ashkenazim of Erfurt 1350 AD, who had 70% Italian, 15% from Eastern Europe and 15% from North Africa, Middle East (with no guarantee that it was "Jewish"), Iran, but they are now an European autosome (look at 23andMe).”

You’re correct. I have read the thread that Davidski published here. It is interesting that the traditional and prevailing view, especially among Israeli geneticists (Elhaik excluded!) is that Ashkenazi Jews migrated from Germany to Poland circa 1360AD following the Bubonic Plague, and that the contribution of the Slavic Poles or “Canaanite” (Polish speaking Jews) as well as that of the Scytho-Turkic Khazarian were minimal at best. Whereas on the other hand, we see that in Erfurt itself, in 14th century Germany, Davidski found evidence of a reverse process, ie that there were Slavic and a minor East Eurasian contribution in local Jews.

These diverse origin Jews have assimilated the Canaanite Jews in Poland, thereby rendering an even higher percentage rate of Corded Ware/WSH and Khazarian dna, before rising intermarriages with local gentiles and rape by marauding Kozaks raised the percentage even higher.

@Samuel Andrews has long suspected that the Steppe Component ratio amongst Ashkenazi Jews in Slavic countries is much
higher than 25%. He even stated that this fact is reflected by the phenotype of many Ashkenazis.

Andrzejewski said...

@Assuwatana “ Wonder if Burushaski is a central asian steppe language from botai like groups or Saka-Huna that migrated into India post common era....”

I think that Dravidian languages derive from the AASI cline cluster and represent the Onge-like hunter gatherer groups; Burushaski might’ve been the a relic language of either BMAC related groups or the Iran_Neolithic/Mesolithic who had migrated to India prior to the creation of Elamite in Zagros mountains. Ofc, the Hindo-Aryan languages are ultimately from the Pontic Steppe via the Sintashta and Andronovo horizon of the CWC admixing with GAC in the forest Steppe.

Do you have any theory or guess where the language isolate speakers of Nihali and Kusunda come from?

Andrzejewski said...

@Steppe “ Hun languages ​​are certainly a Turkic language”

Or a Pumpokol Yenisseyan one

epoch said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Assuwatama said...

Target Distance

India_RoopkundA
Iran_Hasanlu_IA_noUDG
Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA1

Balochi 0.02408496 32.0 23.4 44.6
Brahui 0.02303009 32.2 22.4 45.4
Average 0.02355752 32.1 22.9 45.0


North West Iranian language signal detected among Baloch speakers....This signal also shows up among Kurdish speakers...Iran_Hasanlu_IA_noUDG

Iran_Hasanlu_IA
Iran_Hasanlu_IA_noUDG

0.00830653
52.4%
47.6%

Rob said...

@ epoch- yes your right. In fact, I like his Luwian-Hittite tree

Dranoel said...

@Davidski

Thank you for your answer. What about I15552 from Serbia? It is dated to 380-410 AD. Can we conclude from his data what his migration history was?

Returning to I35014 R1b-z2103 and the Polak_X post - can such results really indicate migration from Poland? It was said that this sample has Eastern origin - but how to understand this? Eastern as a steppe or eastern as Poland? Many people still consider Poland to be Eastern Europe...

Davidski said...

@Dranoel

What about I15552 from Serbia? It is dated to 380-410 AD. Can we conclude from his data what his migration history was?

This is a pre-Slavic sample both in terms of the dating and genetic structure.

You would need to check his IBD connections to learn more. Not sure where though at this stage.

Returning to I35014 R1b-z2103 and the Polak_X post - can such results really indicate migration from Poland?

No it can't, because the model only included reference samples from Poland.

Again, you would need to look at fairly comprehensive IBD data to see whether this sample is actually of Polish origin or only Polish-like.

ambron said...

Dranoel

Certainly, demographic contacts between Poland and the Balkans took place already in the Roman period, as evidenced by the long IBD segments shared between medieval Cedynia and ancient Viminacium.

Kouros said...

@Davidski

Can you please post the coordinates of the Rostovka samples

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.10.01.560195v1.full

Merci!

ambron said...

Dranoel

The IBD segment is nothing more than an autosomal haplotype, shared between a pair of individuals inheriting it from a recent common ancestor. In inferring kinship, they play a similar role to the haplotypes of the Y chromosome. And Gorniji 35014 shares the PH2147 haplotype of the Y chromosome with Groszowice 300.

RKV said...

Viminacium, Serbia 79 - 213 AD, Z92 balto-slavic
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y29965/
R9673 from Antonio et al. 2023 n preprint
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.05.15.491973v2
Amber Road?

Dranoel said...

@Davidski
Let me ask you to make sure I understand correctly - pre-Slavic in the sense of not being related to the migrations of Slavic peoples, but to some other cultures earlier, right?

@ Ambron
Thank you for joining the conversation. I have been reading Davidski's blog for years, and I still find it difficult to find my way around some things.

Ok, this indicates a movement from Poland to the Balkans, but Z2103 has been present in Poland since the Bronze Age. Since then, he may have traveled from Poland to the south at least several times - from the great migrations of peoples, through later movements with Slavic groups. If some culture "started" in Poland and the surrounding area, there is a probability that Z2103 also took part in it to a greater or lesser extent.

Basically, we have one influx of Z2103 into Poland with the BB, and the other from the north, with the Wielbark culture. And it was probably some kind of "retrograde move".

As you write, PH2147 was already found in Poland in a medieval sample. But we already have several older Z2103s, so there is some basis for saying that Z2103 appeared here in the Bronze Age and through the Roman period and into the Middle Ages it is present here. I was just wondering whether it is possible to recognize more accurate data on these Balkan samples. It will probably be very difficult or even impossible, because Z2103 has divided into Y DNA typical for Eastern cultures, but also Balkan and Central European ones - and the history of the Balkans has crossed all these paths for centuries. Of the few Z2103s found recently, virtually each may have a different history, different culture, etc.

NEVILLE RESISTE A LA PLAGA said...

Slavs in the Balkans appeared in the early Middle Ages, as is well said here. The Asian trace of so many peoples: Pechenegs, Avars, Turks, Tartars, Huns, etc. is small despite dominating for centuries and the same for the Italian-Romans.On the other hand, the Greek genes inseparable from the Thraco-Dacian and Albanian genes are more abundant. There are two main components: the Balkan Thracian-Dacian and the Slavic, adorned by small Asian and Italic contributions, also Germanic.

Davidski said...

@Dranoel

Pre-Slavic as in non-Slavic and from before the Slavs got there.

By the way, ambron is wrong. Olalde et al. are not necessarily claiming that Slavs came to the Balkans from Poland, but rather from East-Central or Eastern Europe.

You can email them and ask.

Rob said...

@ Neville

“ The Asian trace of so many peoples: Pechenegs, Avars, Turks, Tartars, Huns, etc. is small despite dominating for centuries “

Rule or die .
Might also mention Bulgars, obviously. We really need some studies on them, there’s tons of material

Rob said...

We don't actually expect much of a medieval nomad impact in the Balkans, apart from the Bulgars, they never ruled it. The Avars were in the Carpathian basin. The Bulgars were probably wiped out by Sviatoslav and Tzimisces c. 960. Pechenegs and Cumans also limited to northeast Bulgaria, but there are said to be occasional settlements further in (eg.'Cumanovo" in north Macedonia)

Steppe said...

@ Rob

this is wrong, today's Romanians and Bulgarians show a slight steppe signal, for example Romanians have about 10% of Scythians and 3-7% of Huns depending on the region, take a look at G25 Calculator!

Rob said...

@ steppe
Maybe Romanians and Bulgarians do have ~5% Eastern nomad ancestry, but most peoples’ calc runs age overfitted because they do those horrendous ‘source dump ‘ approaches and don’t even qualify what they mean by “Scythians”.
And there’s slim chance Bulgarians and Romanians derive their ancestry from Scythians or Huns, the time gap is huge. It’s probably from more recent sources like Magyars, Bulgars, Pechenegs.

Polak_X said...

Tu jest różnica pomiędzy „Germańskim” a „Słowiańskim” r1b-CTS9219
Kalkulator G25 Bell Beaker Bronze Age Calculator by SB
Obaj mają widoczne związki z Południem.
Target: Croatia_Gornji:I35014
Distance: 2.7337% / 0.02733749 | R5P
57.4 Baltic_Bonze_Age !
21.4 Minoan
18.8 Welsh_Bell_Beaker
2.4 HRV_EBA

Target: Croatia_TrogirDobric:I26718
Distance: 1.7696% / 0.01769567 | R5P
37.0 GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA
23.2 Bell_Beaker_Ireland
18.2 Levant_PPNB
12.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

NEVILLE RESISTE A LA PLAGA said...

I have been to Romania. It is true that outward appearances can be deceiving, but at first glance there is a clear Slavic component and also a different Balkan component. There are also some Asian traits, albeit in the minority, and also many Gypsies who entered in more modern times. Some Celtic toponymy exactly the same as in northern Spain, such as Deva, Dobra, etc., caught my attention. There is a deep debate in that country about the origin of the Romanian language, two irreconcilable positions about its origin and origin; in any case language and genes do not always go hand in hand. The genetic issue of Romania is important for the history of Spain. The Hispanic Goths carried out their ethnogenesis there and carried the R1A that is seen in small quantities in Cantabria, León and Asturias, but they did not contribute specifically Germanic genes, unlike the Suevi and Franks.

ambron said...

Dranoel

Most likely, Z2103 came to Poland from the south with the BBC population. He remained in Poland and today is quite a common paternal line among Poles. Therefore, it also appears in the Wielbark, Piast and early Croatian population.

David

I had in mind the Olalde map, which derives the Slavs from Poland. Moreover, there is rather a consensus in historical sciences that Croats come from Poland.

ambron said...

Neville

Do you have any information on the R1a subclades of the Spanish Goths?

Gio said...

@ Neville
“There is a deep debate in that country about the origin of the Romanian language”.

Ahhhhh,
Romanian language is a neolatin language with of course some introgressions from Slavic (they say “da” for “yes” and not “sic, hoc etc.” from Latin). Of course areal influxes from the nearby Balkan languages as the article "postponed" as in Albanian etc. Nothing more.

Polak_X said...

Ten sam kalkulator G25.
Według Familytreedna autosomalne Kujawiaka
Bałkanów 0%
Słowianie Wschodnie 0%
Słowian Zachodnich 65%
Target: Polska_Kujawiak_współczesny_scaled R1b-z2103
Distance: 1.7487% / 0.01748657 | R5P
47.4 Baltic_Bronze_Age
20.6 Eastern_Corded_Ware_Srubnaya
17.6 Vucedol !!!!
11.6 Petrovka_Corded_Ware_Russia
2.8 Levant_PPNB
Nic tu nie jest oszukiwane

Vilmaris said...

@Gio

"da" is from Latin "ita"

Gio said...

@ Vilmaris
“@Gio
"da" is from Latin "ita"”

I never studied the question, but it seemed easier to me to think that it was from Slavic, for instance Russian “da”. Latin “ìta” for becoming “da” should have been pronounced “*ità” and suffered a lenition. Difficult to demonstrate. Anyway Slavic words in Romanian are many and well documented.

Steppe said...

@ Neville

The Roma (Gypsies) are not Romanians, this is often confused in Germany, and Roma do not have an Asian, Eastern touch but rather an Indian one, but under socialism there were also mixed marriages such as in Yugoslavia or partly in the People's Republic of Poland. For example, the Poles did not enter into mixed marriages with Ashkenazi Jews because they lived in their own neighborhoods, for example in Krakow or Lodz, and that was different in Germany before Hitler, for example (well intrigued), for example in the Poland-Lithuanian Personal Union, there were Muslim Tatars a very high status in contrast to Orthodox Ukrainians or Ashkenazi Jews, many in Germany also claim that the Poles are half Jewish, the problem is many do not deal well with history and reflect many clichéd opinions!

Andrzejewski said...

@Nevillle “ Some Celtic toponymy exactly the same as in northern Spain, such as Deva, Dobra, etc., caught my attention.”

Dobra means “good” in Slavic…

Andrzejewski said...

@NEVILLE “ The Hispanic Goths carried out their ethnogenesis there and carried the R1A that is seen in small quantities in Cantabria, León and Asturias, but they did not contribute specifically Germanic genes, unlike the Suevi and Franks.”

1. Unlike Franks, Goths got dethroned by the Moors.
2. Goths were never as numerous as the Franks.
3. Goths were ALREADY heavily admixed in the Balkans.
4. The Hispanic population didn’t tolerate them, unlike the Gallo-Romans towards the Franks.

Moesan said...

Romanian is not known for tendancies to lenition contrary to the western romance languages-
I tend to agree with Gio, 'da' in Romanian is from Slavic, I think.

NEVILLE RESISTE A LA PLAGA said...

In answer to your question Ambron I copy and paste the following paragraph on the genetic history of Iberia "The Visigothic Kingdom was larger and longer-lived than the Suevian Kingdom, and yet the Goths do not seem to have had a significant genetic impact on the Iberian population, at least not in terms of Germanic Y-DNA. The reason could simply be that they were no longer a predominantly Germanic tribe. After all, the Goths had lived for many centuries in Eastern Europe and almost two centuries more in the Balkans before invading Italy, Gaul and Iberia. They could have assimilated a large number of non-Germanic people along the way, especially the R1a and I2a1b Slavs and predominantly E1b1b, I2a1b and Balkan J2. It would be rather complicated at this point to disentangle Balkan E1b1b and J2 from all the others (Neolithic, Phoenician, Greek, Roman, Jewish, Arabic) found in Iberia. But it is remarkably easy to check I2a1b from Eastern Europe (M423) and R1a (M458 and Z280). No historical migration could explain the Slavic haplogroups in Iberia, apart from Eastern European populations assimilated by the Goths before the 4th century. The I2a project in FTDNA has three M423-Dinaric-N and one M423-Isles-B2 from Spain, while the R1a1a and Subclades Y-DNA project has four Spanish Z280 members (CTS1211 +)."

NEVILLE RESISTE A LA PLAGA said...

In reply to Mr Gio, I mean that there is a deep debate in Romania as to whether the Latin-speaking population survived the Roman retreat in Dacia or was recolonised from the south in later times.

Dranoel said...

@Davidski
Thanks for the answers!

@ Ambron
Well, here it is not so obvious in the light of current research. In fact, the first Z2103s reached Poland from the south, together with BB. But we have Z2103 in early CWC in the Czech Republic... so we don't really know if it arrived from BB or a little earlier from CWC, which is potentially possible. No less, from BB we officially have Z2103 in Poland.

But there must have been a moment when it somehow reached northern Europe and lived there for many generations, because in the Roman era Z2103 reached Poland again - this time from Denmark and has a typically Danish autosomal result.

So this raises a few questions that may be clarified by new, subsequent research. Did Z2103 reach Denmark from Poland? When did it happen? Is Z2103 present in the early Middle Ages in Poland a descendant of BB... or did he come here again later, with migration from the north? So many questions!

Арсен said...

Neolithic Slavs are of course very interesting, but even more interesting is about the man from Nalchik. Vladimir wrote that an article about him and his DNA will be published before the New Year. It’s already the second week after the New Year. Nothing is known about this?

Matt said...

Off-topic; Not much going on, on the ENA so far in 2024.

One thing was uploaded so far: "Analyses of complete genomes of 10 French Late Mesolithic individuals form the sites of Hoedic, Téviec and Champigny"

"Since the early Holocene, western and central Europe was inhabited by a genetically distinct group of Western Hunter-Gatherers (WHGs). These groups were eventually replaced and assimilated by the incoming Neolithic farmers. The western Atlantic façade was home to some of the last Mesolithic sites of mainland Europe, represented by the iconic open-air sites at Hoedic and Téviec in southern Brittany, France. These sites are known for the unusually well-preserved and rich burials. Genomic studies of Mesolithic European hunter-gatherers have been limited to single or a few individuals per site and our understanding of the social dynamics of the last Mesolithic hunter-gatherers of Europe and their interactions with incoming farmers is limited. We sequenced and analyzed the complete genomes of 10 individuals from the Late Mesolithic sites of Hoedic, Téviec, and Champigny, in France, four of which sequenced to between 23- and 8-times genome coverage. The analysis of genomic, chronological and dietary data revealed that the Late Mesolithic populations in Brittany maintained distinct social units within a network of exchanging mates. This resulted in low intra-group biological relatedness that prevented consanguineous mating, despite the small population size of the Late Mesolithic groups. We found no genetic ancestry from Neolithic farmers in the analyzed hunter-gatherers, even though some of them may have coexisted with the first farming groups in neighboring regions. Hence, contrary to previous conclusions based on stable isotope data from the same sites, the Late Mesolithic forager community was limited in mate-exchange to neighboring hunter-gatherer groups, to the exclusion of Neolithic farmers."

Not likely very interesting for Global 25.

Арсен said...

@Matt
"Not likely very interesting for Global 25"
where did you get this from? why did you decide that this is not interesting for g25, absolutely every ancient DNA is interesting! especially from theь Mesolithic times! you should be happy)

Rob said...

@ Matt
These are the famous Atlantic French mesolithic cemeteries, probably just 'regular WHG", but good to get them on the map

Steppe said...

@ Dranoel

I think R1b Z2103 from southeast Poland, was a contact zone between CW groups and Yamnaya and post-Yamnaya groups, certainly the CW groups absorbed it from it or a second option it was brought to this area by Dacians in the Iron Age, since after the withdrawal or Absorption of the eastern Celts (Boii...), Slovakia and southeastern Poland were settled by Dacians before the Wielbark and Przeworsk cultures spread, but unfortunately we have little DNA because the Dacians practiced cremation.

ambron said...

Dranoel

Most likely, the Z2103 lineage arrived in Central Europe with the Yamnaya inclusion in the Carpathian Basin. It certainly came to Poland from the south, because the Polish Z2103 lines share the haplotype with southern Bronze Age cultures. It remains an open question what population brought it here.

It also remains an open question whether Z2103 in the Wielbark population is local or comes from Scandinavia. It does not appear in Iron Age Scandinavian populations, so it may be of local origin. The local autosomal profile may have diluted in Scandinavian profil after a few generations.

Polish and Croatian medieval Z2103 lineages share the haplotype with today's Poles and South Slavs, so these most likely spread with Slavic migration to the Balkans.

ambron said...

Neville, thanks!

I'm looking at these FTDNA projects right now.

Арсен said...

no offense to other slavs (except russians), of all the slavs only the Poles can boast of their state, a good nation with good people😇

Queequeg said...

@ Арсен and re: "no offense to other slavs (except russians), of all the slavs only the Poles can boast of their state, a good nation with good people😇". It is and always have been kind of a wonder to me how Russians, and I have met many in Russia and also here in Finland, can in most cases be so nice and then however obey to such a f*ed-up administrations they for instance for the time being have. That being said, no problem with Poles ( or whatever other Slavs there are) either, nice people, good country. Pre-bombed Kiev, now that I think of that, was for example a very very nice place.

Moesan said...

caution:
'dobr-' in Celtic is for some kind of "water"; apparently no common meaning with Slavic root
'dob-r'= "good".

Andrzejewski said...

Dżienkuje for the compliment on Poles :)

Russian, IDK…they live in a tyrannical regime, an autocratic dictatorship. If they disobey then it’s either going to the Gulag for a life sentence or it’s drinking Plutonium tea. So I don’t think that the average Russian has a choice.

Matt said...

@Арсен, I think there is likely gonna be some interesting science coming out of that paper from the whole-genomes, but for G25 they are gonna just most likely be like Cheddar Man and Loschbour Man and not tell us much new.

Matt said...

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adi5903 -

"Genetic history of Cambridgeshire before and after the Black Death" - "The extent of the devastation of the Black Death pandemic (1346–1353) on European populations is known from documentary sources and its bacterial source illuminated by studies of ancient pathogen DNA. What has remained less understood is the effect of the pandemic on human mobility and genetic diversity at the local scale. Here, we report 275 ancient genomes, including 109 with coverage >0.1×, from later medieval and postmedieval Cambridgeshire of individuals buried before and after the Black Death. Consistent with the function of the institutions, we found a lack of close relatives among the friars and the inmates of the hospital in contrast to their abundance in general urban and rural parish communities. While we detect long-term shifts in local genetic ancestry in Cambridgeshire, we find no evidence of major changes in genetic ancestry nor higher differentiation of immune loci between cohorts living before and after the Black Death."

Lot of genomes!

Data on ENA - https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB59976
I think genotypes may be uploaded here, but not yet - https://evolbio.ut.ee/

Rob said...

Lol lord Arsen has decreed : only Russians and Poles are good. Slovaks, Croats & Ruthenes suck.

Rob said...

@ Queequeg
Im pretty sure I partied with your former PM in a Berlin nightclub. She was lots of fun :)

Арсен said...

@Rob no, you misunderstood me. On the contrary, I excluded the Russians from this list, those whom I could offend with my statements. since having such colossal territories and controlling so many resources, they turned their country into shit, and the indigenous peoples living in it

Gaska said...

@Matt said...One thing was uploaded so far: "Analyses of complete genomes of 10 French Late Mesolithic individuals form the sites of Hoedic, Téviec and Champigny"

There may be two French WHG-R1b (Yleaf), we will have to check manually and verify the dating. It would not be strange as we already have R1b-L754 in Iboussieres (9.775 BC)

Арсен said...

Russia does not know how not to create, not to build. This is what Russia can do:
“⚡️Almost half of Poland and the Suwalki corridor were left without GPS yesterday,” local media.
Previously, Cyberdefence24 claimed that these were the consequences of the work of Russian electronic warfare in the Kaliningrad region."

Gio said...

@ Gaska

“Awood Wrote:
(10 hours ago)teepean Wrote:Y-DNA with Yleaf (two read minimum)
Code:
Sample_name Hg Hg_marker Total_reads Valid_markers
hoe004 R-L52 CTS7650 402728620 14992
hoe005 R-L52 CTS7650 652343679 18903

L52 in French hunter-gatherers? This would be a first if correct”.

[AWood] No way that is correct.

[Gio] Ahahahahahah

Matt said...

@Davidski, thanks for the coordinates. French late-meso are WHG (of the more extreme NW variety than IronGates) as expected.

I might use the Blackdeath series later on to have a look at how the Neolithic Farmer component has changed in England over time and check out if it can confirm that the shift to a similar level of Anatolian Neolithic (from "French IA" like source) had already occured by this time after the series of Anglo-Saxon genomes in Gretzinger et al.

Gio said...

“Deamination plots characteristic of authentic ancient DNA data, where an increased frequency of C-T substitutions is observed towards the 5’ ends of the DNA fragments, and G-A substitutions on the 3’ ends. The rate of observed substitutions differs between (A) and (B); (A) corresponds to genomic data generated for a sample from Portugal, dated to ca. 400 years ago, mug019/CAM1, and (B) corresponds to data generated for a sample from France, dated to ca. 7.000 years ago, hoe005. In spite of the higher deamination rate, sample (B) yielded a higher proportion of human sequences, 0.45, compared to 0.20 for sample (A)” (Simoes 2023, p. 14).

Chad said...

It looks like 2 of the French Mesolithic are R1b-L151.

Matt said...

@all, OK, so for the English Black Death Later Medieval samples, I can't get precise dates on many of them because if they've been precisely dated or even roughly dated, they're not recorded in the spreadsheet in a convenient format. It's also hard to look up the dates for some of the earlier samples available in G25, because they under different samples IDs in Reich Lab's anno file (where date info is easily available) or in same cases samples available in G25 have simply been removed from the Reich Lab anno.

That said, this is the best I can do, based on a pretty large assumption that the average dates for most of the English Cambridge late medieval samples are the same as for the reported dates: https://imgur.com/a/NfVnpuX

That would suggest then, that the influx of Neolithic-Rich ancestry from France (or wherever but most likely France) which made present-day influx slightly less Steppe rich than Anglo-Saxons and more like British IA in this regard was already complete by 1250 CE. Also the shift to a very slightly less WHG rich ancestry than preceding periods was also complete by late medieval time. It looks like the influx would be between 950CE and 1100CE. This infusion may have meant that late medieval English were very slightly more Neolithic than the present day sample (G25, English, not including English Cornwall), although that may be an artefact of the spline or population substructure.

Andrzejewski said...

@Chad “ It looks like 2 of the French Mesolithic are R1b-L151.”

Must be misdated or contaminated. Otherwise I can’t see why a Bell Beakers subclade would appear there.

(Villabruna Cluster was R1b too bjt of course it was a different subclade).

Matt said...

@Chad, which ones? What's their coverage like?

J.S. said...

@Matt
From teepean /anthroG.
Yleaf
Sample_name Hg Hg_marker Total_reads Valid_markers
hoe004 R-L52 CTS7650 402728620 14992
hoe005 R-L52 CTS7650 652343679 18903




Hoe004:
Result (5.3% 1 -0 +18): R-FT87109
R1b -> R-L754 -> R-L389 -> R-P297 -> R-M269 -> R-L23 -> R-L51 -> R-L52 -> R-PF6538 -> R-L151 -> R-P312 -> R-U152 -> R-L2 -> R-Z258 -> R-L20 -> R-Z1909 -> R-Y6789 -> R-Y15103 -> R-BY137174 -> R-FT87109 (ISOGG: )
Extra: P279/PF5065:A FT74184/PR4337(H):G FT319138(H):G FTC60807(H):G FT129821(H):T FT195078:T FT307459(H):T FT148647:T FT184689:G Y4847/A3242:A FT45000:C Z37822:C FGC58892:T Z9083(H):T CTS5707:G CTS10207:G Z29483:T CTS12954:G

Hoe005:
Result (3.0% 4 -1 +29): R-FGC37088
R1b -> R-L754 -> R-L389 -> R-P297 -> R-M269 -> R-L23 -> R-L51 -> R-L52 -> R-PF6538 -> R-L151 -> R-A8053 -> R-A8051 -> R-FGC57291 -> R-FGC37108 -> R-FGC37090 -> R-FGC37084 -> R-FGC37088 (ISOGG: )
Extra: Y172006:T FT203261:T FT97603(H):T FT100401(H):T FGC7862:T Z18652/FGC23610(H):T Y367008(H):G A22122:T FTA34303:T FTD87509/Y433063:G L687:A FT45000:C Z37822:C TY133092:A Y29212:G FTB33009:T MF93894:C TY135350/Y300104:G BY14580:A FTA18624:T Y144103:T Y151158/FGC91133:T F19771:T CTS5707:G CTS8072:T ZS2704(H):G CTS10207:G Y76781:C CTS12954:G

NEVILLE RESISTE A LA PLAGA said...

On the subject of the Russians. Perhaps the United States would sit idly by if Mexico began flirting with China even as part of its military bloc. Because of what happened in Cuba last century, I don't believe it. And Mexico lost half of its territory to the United States. If you squeeze the bull's balls then don't complain about him goring you.

Davidski said...

@NEVILLE

You're not making much sense.

Mexico flirting with China against the USA in any meaningful way is not a realistic scenario.

And the Russian bull will soon lose its balls because of its stupid decisions.

capra internetensis said...

YFull gives a TMRCA of 500 years for R-FT87109 and 900 years for R-FGC37088.

Queequeg said...

@ Rob: I'm not surprised, she's such a fag hag.

Gio said...

Codaman
"R-FGC37088 and R-FT87109 are modern Irish/British subclades which are only a thousand years old. Could these samples be female and have an extra Y-chromosome as contamination?"
Pribislav
"I can tell just by the number of valid markers teepean posted that hoe004 and hoe005 are females, there's no need to check the BAMs".

I am confident in Pribislav, but a contamination shouldn't get only a few thousands of reliable SNPs. I'd be glad that he tests these samples as he made with others and recent SNPs shouldn't be part of the Y entered female aDNA.

DragonHermit said...

@ Chad

"It looks like 2 of the French Mesolithic are R1b-L151."

?? R1b-L151 mutated after the Mesolithic.

Matt said...

As one last thing on this English dna transect that we've got now, including the late medieval, what I did was slightly from my last comment and looked the distance of each sample from the modern day English average, over time, and then plotted this against dates - https://imgur.com/a/ZyUA256

What I see here is that, although the average proportions settle down to modern day English by the late medieval, the average sample distances are still somewhat elevated.

I think the reason for this is that the proportions of steppe (essentially Saxon) vs neolithic (or French IA-like) ancestry haven't really evened out in the late medieval samples, so you still have some samples who are relatively distant from modern day English because they're too Scandinavian and others who are too French, and it takes some time to even out.

There is also probably some contribution from Scotland and Wales, during the period when England's population grew greatly while Scotland stayed constant (so possibly emigration to England contributed). From the paper: "(W)e identify a major shift in modern East England toward higher LSAI sharing with Wales and Scotland, clearly reflecting the political and economic integration of recent Britain".

They also relate in the paper that: "during and after the later medieval period, there is an increase of LSAI sharing with both modern Dutch genomes [mirroring documentary evidence showing the Dutch as the most common late medieval immigrants locally]", though that seems a little odd to me in that I wouldn't expect the Anatolian Neolithic shift to have much to do with the Netherlands. Maybe the South Dutch and English were both affected by a shared shift instead.

Rich S. said...

Pribislav, who is pretty good at BAM files and the like, said this of those two alleged "Mesolithic L52s":

"I can tell just by the number of valid markers teepean posted that hoe004 and hoe005 are females, there's no need to check the BAMs."

Whatever the case, it's pretty obvious those aren't valid Y-DNA results.

Rob said...

Those French Mesolithics plot as WHG, so they can’t be contaminated, and even if they’re not C14 dated - they’re obviously Mesolithic
But they can’t be R1b-L151. Must be a problem with the automated calls on YLeaf

Rob said...

@ queequeg

Haha. Surprised that you have a sense of humour, given that you’re all such a miserable bunch on LameArchiver, especially after the realisation that Fins don’t come from Milan or even Moscow

Jaerl said...

Hi Sorry for OT post but on last thread you were discussing haplogroup I1 and someone mentioned language substrate theories in Germanic languages.
I saw this post https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?tid=460
Making a case for migration from Finland to Sweden. Could that explain things ?

DragonHermit said...

I'd say it's more like the spread of Greek into the Balkans, not Latin. Latin spreading into the Balkans has nothing to do with Anatolian. The vastness and power of the Roman Empire was unmatched in the EBA by any measure. You can't compare some pastoralist nomads to an empire some estimate numbered over 100 million people.

For the spreading of Anatolian, it was not a direct migration of steppe migrants to Anatolia. David Anthony pointed out that in Europe this only happened in Greece, as everything north of Greece, even the EBA Balkans were covered in 70-80% steppe and full of kurgans. Greeks, on the other hand, measured as as low as 7% steppe. So it's clear that the PIE -> Greek transition, had multiple steps, as in PIE -> X -> Greek, or even PIE -> X -> Y -> Greek.

For Anatolians and ancient core Greeks (Athenians/Myceneans), we should speak more of them as "Indo-Europeanized" rather than Indo-European. It was some Indo-Europeanized group of people with little steppe, that migrated into Anatolia and imposed their language.

My money is on some eastern cousins of the Yamnaya like Khvalynsk who spoke a more archaic steppe dialect, and Indo-Europeanized some Caucasus group, which became Proto-Anatolian (Kura Axes?). That R1b tomb in Arslanteppe is literally the only piece of genetic evidence we have tying the steppe to Anatolia, and it's clearly the remnant of a steppe migrant descendant with an elite background.

Andrzejewski said...

@DargonHermit “ For the spreading of Anatolian, it was not a direct migration of steppe migrants to Anatolia. David Anthony pointed out that in Europe this only happened in Greece, as everything north of Greece, even the EBA Balkans were covered in 70-80% steppe and full of kurgans. Greeks, on the other hand, measured as as low as 7% steppe. So it's clear that the PIE -> Greek transition, had multiple steps, as in PIE -> X -> Greek, or even PIE -> X -> Y -> Greek.”

Hogwash. Proto-Balkanic were heavily infused with LBK-related Neolithic cultures and their dna. Yamnaya was only 40% of their genetic makeup and Anatolian Farmer markers such as E1b1b and J are very common til this day.

Rob said...

@ Dragon Hermit

''My money is on some eastern cousins of the Yamnaya like Khvalynsk who spoke a more archaic steppe dialect, and Indo-Europeanized some Caucasus group, which became Proto-Anatolian (Kura Axes?). That R1b tomb in Arslanteppe is literally the only piece of genetic evidence we have tying the steppe to Anatolia, and it's clearly the remnant of a steppe migrant descendant with an elite background.'


That’s not really true
It's hard to see how K-A has anything to do with PIE or Anatolian, and the Arslantepe R1b-V3616, whilst interesting, was a dismembered/ sacrificed boy. We’d need an explanation as to how did he 'Indo-Europeanise' Anatolia ? Arslantepe collapsed by 2500 BC, and was no longer a prominent city after 2000 bc, which is when Hittites were advancing in central Anatolia.

There is also evidence of Cernavoda evidence of northwest Anatolia, and Troy was clearly prominent c 2000 Bc.
There has also been the suggestion of Catacomb expansions but they’re obviously proto-Armenians

EthanR said...

The complete lack of inter-Anatolian linguistic presence and diversity in eastern Anatolia doesn't inspire much confidence in a Caucasus route, unless eastern branches were wiped out before direct or indirect (loanwords, substrates) attestation.

A look at the most basal branches seems to centre Anatolian languages further west.
proto-Luwic clearly looks like something which disintegrated no further east than West-Central Anatolia, if not along the coast itself. Lydian is firmly in the west, Palaic is in the North, and Hittite emerges the most eastward in Central Anatolia.
The newly discovered language from near modern Bolu, which has tentatively been suggested to be related to Luwic, lends further credence to this.


Andrzejewski said...

@Jaerl I don’t think that Germanic languages have ANY meaningful and substantial substrate at all. If anything, I suspect the GAC more than any other.

But what fascinates me is the Paleo-Laplandic substrate in Sami, which is neither of IE nor Uralic extraction. Because the Pitware Culture (SHG) did contribute a tiny portion to the creation of the Nordic Bronze Age by assimilating into the CWC/SGC but zero degree to the Sami’s ethnogenesis, my money is that the Paleo-Laplanic substrate mentioned above is likely a WHG one, a post-Swiderian or could even be an Erteboelle related.

Rich S. said...

Rob wrote:

Those French Mesolithics plot as WHG, so they can’t be contaminated, and even if they’re not C14 dated - they’re obviously Mesolithic
But they can’t be R1b-L151. Must be a problem with the automated calls on YLeaf

My response:

Over at FTDNA's Big Y Facebook group, Göran Runström posted that there are five males in that study and all of them belong to Y-DNA haplogroup I2:

"Many are asking about French DNA and here is some aDNA data from what looks like a new upcoming paper from Uppsala University. All 5 ancient men in the study belong to Y-DNA haplogroup I2."

Analyses of complete genomes of 10 French Late Mesolithic individuals form the sites of Hoedic, Téviec and Champigny . . .

Арсен said...

@Jaerl ,interesting site, in the discussions I found a topic about the Leakage of Sredny Stog samples, checked the coordinates, it turned out to be a mixture of progress, plus the Ukrainian Mesolithic, plus ANE, plus an early European farmer, with a strong mixture towards ANE than the yamnaya culture

Gio said...

Someone in this stupid blog renewed seems to reason. I'm surprised of course by Pribislav. Perhaps he is worst than I thought:

"I can assure you there is no contamination for all 10 samples. Autosomal they projected near the best WHG that we have.
And all 10 of them were projected very closely near each other. Not far from Bichon..
If there was any contamination, the contaminated individual would be projected very far from the other WHG , because these days we don't have modern humans with pure WHG DNA... However all these 10 from France are clear WHG..
And if any contamination , it would affect not only Y, but Autosomal as well".

Арсен said...

@Gio ,judging by the coordinates of the Mesolithic hunters of France, which were published by Mr. Davidsky, these hunters did not look like one hundred percent WHG (if Villabruna is taken as one hundred percent whg), but rather a mixture of WHG + Iberian hunter-gatherers, approximately 90 percent Villabruna and 5-15 percent iberia_HG

Jaerl said...

@ Andrzejewski said...
''I don’t think that Germanic languages have ANY meaningful and substantial substrate at all. If anything, I suspect the GAC more than any other.''

I guess I am more interested about I1, which is our family patro lineage, not so much Laplandic languages.



@ Арсен said...

''interesting site, in the discussions I found a topic about the Leakage of Sredny Stog samples, checked the coordinates, it turned out to be a mixture of progress, plus the Ukrainian Mesolithic, plus ANE, plus an early European farmer, with a strong mixture towards ANE than the yamnaya culture''


I think that study has already been published. It was a about Ukraine and Poland but I cannot recall the details.

Gio said...

@Arsen

Perhaps you know that I based my theories only upon the uniparental markers and through the STRs then. I never used the autosome, if not through others like 23andMe and a little now through MyTrueAncestry. For what I know, Villabruna was at the autosomal level like Tagliente 2 17000 years ago hg. I2a. My hypothesis is that R1b1 arrived in the Alpine region perhaps before 17000 years ago, entered the Caucasian languages spoken in the Alps leaving its original language continued in the brother hg R1a and probably ancestor of the IE we know. I am waiting that someone is able to read these samples and to say for sure which their hg is. Not surprising to me that it could be R1b having we already Villabruna and Les Iboussiéres more than 12000 years ago in the Alpine reagion.

epoch said...

"That R1b tomb in Arslanteppe is literally the only piece of genetic evidence we have tying the steppe to Anatolia, and it's clearly the remnant of a steppe migrant descendant with an elite background."

Not really. We have a Y-dna I2 which we can tie to the steppe in Yassitepe, near Smyrna. We have a very low res example Kumtepe 4 with steppe. We have some tiny remnant of steppe ancestry in Barcin Chalcolithic, which pops up in some analyses.

And that is all combined with a clear cultural connection with the Balkans after the Chacolithic.

alex said...

R-V1636 has not been found in this Balkans and very likely entered Anatolia through the Caucasus. This is corroborated by its modern distribution.

Andrzejewski said...

@Jaerl “I guess I am more interested about I1, which is our family patro lineage, not so much Laplandic languages.”

I don’t care as much about Laplandic languages. I AM, however, very interested in finding out what the WHG tribes spoke (as well as what the Neolithic EEF did) before out ancestors assimilated them or drove them away. If indeed the Proto-Laplandic substrate is of WHG origin then perhaps it was what your I1 bearing forebears spoke.

Gaska said...

Everyone has to wait for the dating of the french mesolithic samples to be published (apparently despite being contemporary with EEF they were not mixed with them), because if they are from the 4th millennium they could be M269 or L51.

What happens is that Yleaf and Snipsa sometimes are not very reliable, because the machines do not work as well as the human eye and it would not be the first time that a R1b in Yleaf turns out to be a woman.

I'm curious to know the opinion of the researchers.

But Gio, even if they were not, this doesn't change what we already have in Europe, what we had to prove we already proved years ago, or don't you remember when the naysayers said that we would never find R1b east of the Dnieper river because it was a marker only linked to the EHGs? Ha Ha Ha, ten years later we have R1b-L754>P297 in Italy and France, tons of r1b-V88 in the Iron Gates HGs, R1b-P297 and Y13200 in the Baltic HGs, Y13200 in the Scandinavian HGs, and of course, some of these markers are shared with their EHG siblings.

And regarding the R1b-M269 marker, what more do we want?, the rednecks suffer every time we talk about these samples because they are mentally incapable of accepting reality. They are all neolithic farmers, meanwhile they still have to keep looking to find a M269>L51 in the European steppes.

*NP548 (5.000 BCE)-Niederpöring, EF-LBK, Germany-HapY-R1b1a/2a1a-M269
*I2181/21 (4.497 BCE)-Smyadovo, Gumelnita-Karanovo VI culture, Bulgaria-HapY-R1b-M269
*ATP3 (3.389 BCE)-El Portalón, Atapuerca, Iberian_chalcolithic, Iberia-HapY-R1b1a/1a2-M269
*AF023 (3.245 BCE)-Trou Al’Wesse, SOM culture, Belgium-HapY-R1b1a/1a2-M269

Poor devils, how they must be suffering, why it will be so important for them to link M269 with Indo-European?

Gio said...

@ alex

"R-V1636 has not been found in this Balkans and very likely entered Anatolia through the Caucasus. This is corroborated by its modern distribution".

Don't forget that through the STRs I demonstrated more than 10 years ago that only Italy gets all the 5 known haplotypoes of R-V1636 and also through the YFull tree Italy gets the oldest separated haplotype (6600 years ago) and after Iberia and Latin America. Thus, let's wait...

Rich S. said...

Evidently those alleged "R-L52" French Mesolithic samples, hoe004 and hoe005, are both females, two of the five females in the study. I asked about them at FTDNA's Big Y Facebook group.

EthanR said...

R-V1636 has been found in Cernavoda. But Arslantepe's is almost surely from the east.

Rob said...

@ Jaerl


''Hi Sorry for OT post but on last thread you were discussing haplogroup I1 and someone mentioned language substrate theories in Germanic languages.
I saw this post https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?tid=460
Making a case for migration from Finland to Sweden. Could that explain things ?''


Ive read that first page but unfortunately it just demonstrates the pseudoscience propagated by the amateur used-car salesmen which run that 'forum' (Angles & small Logan). That's why I warned RMS2 previously, as it's prolific on that forum (e.g. refer to Norfern & Kale's hogwash on WHG & ANE).
pseudoscience = taking the appearance of using scientific methods but telling porkies, twisting facts or simply not knowing what you're talking about.

The poster is conflating several different things. Zher begins by announcing the significance of Falköping w.r.t to the origins of I1. But ignores the 2000 BC I1 found in Toftum Mose, Denmark (from same study) and adjacently the ~ 3300 BC individual from Ostorf in northern Germany from another recent study.

Moreover, as was pointed out in previous thread by CAx, Allentoft et al also told porkies, because their isotope provenace claims about eastern migrations into Sweden at this time in reality relate to ''The three individuals with the youngest radiocarbon dates had very high Sr isotope ratios and most likely spent part of their childhood years in eastern or more north-eastern parts of Sweden., 1500-1400 bc, ie long after the relevant period. Moreover , isotopic migration studies are something of a dud, as they predicted no migration into Britain during the Beaker period, and told us BB formed as a result of gentle wife-swapping rather than profound migrations with a male-bias.

So where I1 came from remains open, a good bet is northern continental Europe, west of Oder, but sure, Finland is not excluded, although unlikely as those post-Battle Axe / SGC individual in Denmark have extra EEF, not EHG/CCC admixture (maybe some like RISE 98 have some PWC admixture).


The poster then deflects & rambles on about Levänluhta and its role in proto-Germanic glottogenesis, but given that Levanlutha individuals date to ~ 350 AD ! (median), they obviously have nothing to do with proto-Germanic, which most people apart from him and the 'linguist' Jaska understands to have devleoped within the NBA.

Btw his appraisal of qpADm model for the Iron Age Falköping individual is odd. In his zeal to prove his pet theories about PMGC being from Malar psecifically and a large role of langauge-shifting Fins (linguistically dubious), he doesnt realise that the Tail Prob of the one -way result (of solely deriving from Falköpin_LN) is 0.595957, which is same order of magnitute and non-inferior to two way model incorporating additional admixture from Levänluhta (weight 8%, with SE of 3%). But whatever.











DragonHermit said...

@ Andrze

That is a fact. During EBA, we have 70 to 80% steppe people just north of Greece, both in the western and eastern Balkans. This is identical to CW north of Carpathians, but accompanied by different Y-DNA. There are Kurgans all over there.

I bring this up because ancient Greece was literally the only place in the eastern half of Europe that didn't have direct steppe migrations in EBA. It was an EEF holdout that got Indo-Europeanized during the MBA.

It's funny to me how Finnish people have the most Yamnaya and speak Uralic, but ancient Greeks measured as low as 7% and was clearly IE.

So we must speak of "Indo-Europeanized" places like ancient Greece, Anatolia (and even Sardinia). Although modern Greeks look more like a West Balkanic place nowadays, which shows their genetic pool has drastically changed.

Davidski said...

Finns don't have the most Yamnaya.

Allentoft's ancient admixture analysis is stupid and wrong.

Rob said...

@ Andrze

''I don’t think that Germanic languages have ANY meaningful and substantial substrate at all. If anything, I suspect the GAC more than any other.''

All languages have some substrate, because they dont move into vacuums.
But some of the atypical features of Germanic is likely due to its 1500 years of relative isolation between 2000 BC and their Roman Age expansions.

In cases where there is a pervasive substrate or language shifters, then its clear. E.g. South Slavic where almost 50% of their ancestry is pre-Slavic, and in turn, Romanians, Greeks and Albanians have Slavic admixture, and they have all share structural convergences which don't require imagination. Or the case of Ancient Greeks and their clear of 'Aegean' vocabulary.

The idea of Finnish substrate on that forum looks like a copy of Carlos Quilles theory, based on his former views that CWC people spoke Fino-Uralic.
I certainly do not discount the possibility of some isolated impacts, and faily significant contacts across the Feno-Scandia, esp given that Peter Scrhiver, who is a good linguist, has made an observation. But that doesn't mean that pre-Germanic speakers all of a sudden became Germanic just because an isolated segment in the northeast traded with Finns. Indeed, if proto-Germanic had a substantial Finnish adstrate, then we should see that more than the odd Finnic-shifted Viking, or that yet-to-be-dated 'La Tene era' warrior.

As for paleo-Lapplandic, toponym and substrate studies arent hard science. But obviously early west Uralics did move into lands with an EHG ("Comb Ceramic") population substrate, this can be seen in Bolshoi Oleni. Given that SHG had large amounts of EHG, certain hunter-gatherer networks might have shared tribal languages

Gio said...

@ Rob

"esp given that Peter Scrhiver, who is a good linguist"

The surname is Schrijver. I wrote some letters to him when I read a paper of his in which he supposed, basing upon two weak hypotheses, that the EEF (whom he though completely Anatolians as Harvard says) spoke Hattic. I replied that they were very likely Aegean-Mediterranean, in fact they are above all in northern Anatolia, and I proposed that they spoke Tyrsenian, i.e. the language found at Lemnos and where they migrated northward, i.e. Etruscans, Rhaetians and perhaps Camuns. After Etruscans from the eastern Alps migrated not only to Etruria but above all northern Italy, southern France and Iberia where we find their closest autosome now. Of course they, in their migration northward, took hg R1b beyond the original J2 and perhaps G-L497. In fact in 1 thousand genome project we found in TSI so many R1b as J2. Of course Schrijver didn't reply my letters. And nothing about the Novilara Stele that another Dutch thought an old form of Celtic.

Andrzejewski said...

@DragonHermit “ So we must speak of "Indo-Europeanized" places like ancient Greece, Anatolia (and even Sardinia). Although modern Greeks look more like a West Balkanic place nowadays, which shows their genetic pool has drastically changed.”

It was estimated that up to 40% roots of Koine Greek/Classical Greek were without any clear Indo-European etymology, although I doubt that it was that high. In any case, it is much more plausible than the alleged so-called Germanic non-IE hypothesis.

Andrzejewski said...

@Rob For the record, I’ve never espoused the idea that Proto-Germanic had a substantial substrate, let alone a Finnic one. To the contrary, I have been against the idea that Germanic (or Celtic) shared anything discernibly non-IE to any large extent. To me it was more like a school of thought that developed after WWII to “prove” that the Germanics are far from being the “purest” Indo-European “race”.

My philosophy when it comes to the unique position of the Germanic branch is that it stems from being a Balto-Slavic substrate with a NorthWestblock Indo-European, ie 2 IE branches merging together rather any “outside” farmer or HG inpact.

About Finland, during the BA or even the IA it was an IE speaking geographic locale, with Uralic speakers migrating centuries later.

So, you think that the pre-Uralic substrate in Sami along with some Volgaic Finnic languages (tahti/tästä for star, for instance) is due to an EHG linguistic horizon instead of a WHG one? This case in point highlights how Proto-Indo-European was NOT an EHG derived language (shoutout to Anthony here!), because the shared (according to Rob) substrate lexicon in European Uralic languages among the Proto-Laplandic/Combed Ceramic/Narva(?)/Volosovo bear absolutely ZERO resemblance to IE equivalent. I’ve always believed that pre-pre-Proto-IE was a language horizon formed when the Western Steppe Herder component was formed.

Going off on a tangent here, an article on the very same topic of pre-Uralic pre-IE indigenous languages of post-LGM Eastern Europe (written IIRC by our ‘buddy’ Jääko Hääkkinen, so I’m taking it with a grain of salt), concludes that those EHG natives spoke some sort of a language family rich with sibilants. Given that Balto-Slavic phonology is very shifted towards sibilant consonants (listen to Polish, for example) - do you think that there’s a chance that Slavic languages’ phonology and sound shift could’ve been influenced by Narva HG?

RobertN said...

Davidski said

"And the Russian bull will soon lose its balls because of its stupid decisions."

Really? How did that Ukrainian offensive pan out? Or are you still waiting for it?

Davidski said...

@RobertN

The Ukrainians almost pushed the zero line south enough so that Russia's main supply line to Crimea was within artillery range. So they came closer to ending the war than you think.

It'll still happen sooner or later.

Meantime they pushed the Russian Black Sea Fleet out of the Black Sea, and they're exporting grain again via the Black Sea. That was a huge success.

How's the Russian offensive going?

RobertN said...

@Davidski

They re-positioned their ships to 2 other ports still in the Black Sea, certainly not out of it.

A Russian offensive should come this year, now that they've allowed over a half million Slavic Orthodox Ukrainian youth to bleed out in a regrettable war of attrition for the benefit of western neo-cons and their pawn Zelensky, and are now conscripting old men and even pregnant women.

Assuwatama said...

"AndrzejewskiJanuary 14, 2024 at 8:31 AM


Do you have any theory or guess where the language isolate speakers of Nihali and Kusunda come from?"

Kusunda is probably of Paleolithic or late neolithic origin....Perhaps not....This is what I am getting....

Target Distance

China_Miaozigou_MN
China_Upper_YR_LN
China_YR_LN
China_YR_MN
Indian_GreatAndaman_100BP.SG
Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2

Kusunda,
0.02893942

7.6,
35.8
4.8
5.4
17.6
28.8

Assuwatama said...

As for Burushaski being a BMAC language .... looks unlikely unless its proto form was a minor language....Shows no influence whatsoever on Eastern Iranian languages, speakers of whom had significant BMAC ancestry component....

As for Kusunda....distance improves from 0.028 to 0.021 on using roopkund cluster....Seems like a language of ancient Chinese origin or pre indo aryan arrival language of Nepal....People there were probably Chinese LN + AASI types....

Davidski said...

@RobertN

Russians (not Ukrainians) are dying in their thousands each week with their useless meat assaults.

Go cope somewhere else tankie.

Assuwatama said...

As for Nihali speakers none of the ancient samples are providing good distance....best distance is 0.065....

Compared to modern samples they are close to austro-asiatic Asur and Dravidian speaking Gonds....distance 0.031....

My guess....

Their ancestors from different linguistic affliation came together and created a totally new language which was ancestral to Nihali....

Genetic association to this language no longer exists

One of the old AASI languages....

Andrzejewski said...

@Aassuwatama “Their ancestors from different linguistic affliation came together and created a totally new language which was ancestral to Nihali....”

Just like EHG rich and CHG related groups, with lesser contributions from EEF and WHG created a totally new language in Ukraine 6500 years ago

Andrzejewski said...

@Assuwatama Do you think that Dravidian languages are from Iran_HG migrants or from the AASI Onge like autochthonous Indians?

Andrzejewski said...

@Assuwatama “ As for Kusunda....distance improves from 0.028 to 0.021 on using roopkund cluster....Seems like a language of ancient Chinese origin or pre indo aryan arrival language of Nepal....People there were probably Chinese LN + AASI types....”

So Kusunda is a language related to Sino-Tibetan language family group at its core?

Assuwatama said...

Can't answer about Kusunda....as hardly any study about their language is openly available...

For Dravidian we need to be careful...IranHG ancestry in India can be from different sources and at different times....one of the waves could have brought the language and certain influences into dravidian....Turan chalcolithic appears to be a good source for harappan population and its unlikely it was dravidian....Turan itself had gene flow from Iran_C that led to the formation of BMAC ancestry....Not to forget possible ANE-WSHG linguistic influences as well

We need more data from india to sort it out but for now neither BMAC nor northern regions of IVC spoke Dravidian....Dravidian probably originated in the interior middle india/deccan neolithic or further south....

Should also not forget about Hurrian and kassite languages and their possible links to population in the east...

Assuwatama said...

Mehargarh and Bhirrana are oldest neolithic sites in India dating 8000-6000bce....although there is some evidence of agriculture its still not known if these people were IranN type or AASI type or a mix of them....Though Narsimhan paper claims this mixture occurred between 5500-3500bce....so one wonders who were these guys....

Simon_W said...

@RobertN

"A Russian offensive should come this year, now that they've allowed over a half million Slavic Orthodox Ukrainian youth to bleed out in a regrettable war of attrition for the benefit of western neo-cons and their pawn Zelensky, and are now conscripting old men and even pregnant women."

It's funny how the spreaders of Russian propaganda always seem particularly inclined to deplore the fate of the Ukrainian war vicitims. Obviously holding pro-Russian views, shouldn't they deplore the Russian vicitims in the first place?

NEVILLE RESISTE A LA PLAGA wrote:
"On the subject of the Russians. Perhaps the United States would sit idly by if Mexico began flirting with China even as part of its military bloc. Because of what happened in Cuba last century, I don't believe it. And Mexico lost half of its territory to the United States. If you squeeze the bull's balls then don't complain about him goring you."

Davidski replied:
"You're not making much sense.
Mexico flirting with China against the USA in any meaningful way is not a realistic scenario."

@Davidski and NEVILLE
Neville's scenario doesn't have to be realistic for his argument to be logically sound. However, it's just the old lame argument that the West has provoked the war, that Russia had to react, in order to defend itself against the NATO threat. It has been discussed all over in the corresponding thread, so I'll be brief for now. First of all, the Cold War has been over for many years, there was no longer a competition between the systems of the western free world and the communist Soviet Union. So the West didn't have any reason to be wanting to attack Russia. To the contrary, the NATO viewed Russia as a possible strategic partner. And even if the West had wanted to attack Russia, which isn't true, but let's assume it for a moment, the principle of mutual assured destruction, which prevented the Cold War from turning into a hot war, still holds. The Russian propaganda, especially within Russia, constantly draws the picture of the evil Western bogeyman, wanting to destroy and dismember Russia. But this is just a convenient propaganda lie to convince the Russian people of the necessity of the war. Putin himself obviously doesn't believe in it, or why did he allow to withdraw thousands of soldiers from the western borders of Russia, to send them in Ukraine? Not western conservatives, but Putin needs this war, and martial adventures in general, to secure his regime, because in terms of economic welfare and growth he didn't achieve much. At most you could argue that this war was necessary to defend the Crimea and the separatist entities in the Donbas against a potential future recapture by Ukraine, but as these territiories belong to Ukraine, according to international law, Russia should have stayed at home, then no war would be necessary at all. Sorry @Davidski, RobertN has provoked me to react, but I'm not going to say anything more about this subject here, because it's so off-topic.

Steppe said...

@ Andrzejewski / Assuwatama

Kusunda, Nahali, Vedda, Burushaski belong to isolated languages ​​or proto-languages ​​such as Andaman and are older than the Dravidian languages ​​as well as Australian languages, probably an old relic, very early migration of modern humans from eastern Africa towards Southeast Asia.

Арсен said...

@Andrzejewski said "Just like EHG rich and CHG related groups, with lesser contributions from EEF and WHG created a totally new language in Ukraine 6500 years ago"
I wonder if these groups associated with chg, when they came to Ukraine, were already mixed with ehg, or did their mixing take place in Ukraine?

Rob said...

@ Andrzejewski

'' For the record, I’ve never espoused the idea that Proto-Germanic had a substantial substrate, let alone a Finnic one. To the contrary, I have been against the idea that Germanic (or Celtic) shared anything discernibly non-IE to any large extent. ''

Yes I know, I was just explaining things.
BTW I read another article in the same volums as that of Schrijver by Paul Roberge and he simply suggests that the phonological influences (Verner's law type) went from German to Finnic rather than the other way around, moving with the numerous loan words. I think that makes more sense than the meme that Germanic an IE language with a Finnnish accent

Andrzejewski said...

@Steppe “ Kusunda, Nahali, Vedda, Burushaski belong to isolated languages ​​or proto-languages ​​such as Andaman and are older than the Dravidian languages ​​as well as Australian languages,”

Older than Australian languages?

Rob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dospaises said...

More disinformation has been posted by the king of disinformation.

*NP548 is R1b1a2a1a which is CTS5330, CTS1647, CTS6189, CTS7124 in ISOGG. It is NOT R-M269. R-CTS5330 is not even downstream from R-P297. Which means it is negative for R-M269. The BAM file isn't even available at ENA.
*I2181 has Steppe autosomal DNA. There is nothing new here.
*ATP3 has too low coverage and the PF6518 SNP is recurrent in too many haplogroups to be reliable. Gerber 2023 has it labeled as R1b1a1 which is R-P297 in ISOGG.
*AF023 has Steppe autosomal DNA and there is no direct 14c dating of this specimen. It was found in a different layer than the specimens that were 14c dated. The BAM file is not even available at ENA.

To date, every single R-L23 specimen with reliable results and direct 14C dating in western Europe also has Steppe autosomal DNA and all of the specimens are younger than 3000 BC. SHT001 which has low contamination and reliable results is from Afanasievo is from about 3000 BC and is derived for R-L151, R-P310 and R-P311. Only reliable results from reliable sources can contradict this information or prove it wrong.

Арсен said...

@Rob
where do you get all this information from, you write as a Russian washed up by Russian propaganda, rather than some European, or where you are from. The USA certainly pursues the same imperial policy, but they do not seize foreign territories, they do not destroy culture, they do not impose their languages, as the Russians do. For some reason you also drag in Israel, although it is Israel’s full right to destroy Palestinians terrorists on their land, who produce nothing, invent nothing, do nothing useful, only unscrupulously use the benefits that Israel supplies them for free (water, electricity), this is land Jews whether you want it or not. Palestinians are a cross between Egyptians, Jordanians, Arabs of Iraq and Syria, they have nothing to do with these lands. Israel jewish has every right to its own state.

Арсен said...

I wonder where Palestine and Russia lovers like Rob were when the Russians carried out the genocide of the Chechens on their own land, because the Chechens were so ungrateful and wanted to secede from Russia? 300 thousand Chechens were killed, 42 thousand of them children, the city of Grozny and other cities were wiped off the face of the earth, their tyrant ruler in the person of Kadyrov was installed, who is still tormenting his people. The same thing happened in Dagestan and other republics of the northern Caucasus, but not on such a scale.
The Russians did not calm down after that, they attacked Georgia, first they took away Abkhazia from it, then South Ossetia, making them “supposedly” independent, placing their puppet government there, attacking the Syrian people, speaking on the side of the tyrant Bashar al-Assad, committing numerous war crimes. and many other things that don’t immediately come to mind

Rob said...

@ Davidski

''Also try and explain to the Balts that being in NATO and the EU is really a disaster for them, and that being a part of Russia would be so much better.''

The Baltic States and NATo is an irrelevant issue. EU & NATO have lost legitimacy and might not even survive the upcoming decades, things aren't too great.
Europeans are acting against their own interest, and in fact trade & cooperation with Russia is better than being bannana republics of a collapsing Empire.
Sure, in the late 1980s when it was the Soviet state which was collapsing and de-legitimized, then the idea of Democracy and Capitalism were far more attractive, but that's not what the West is currently. It's a post-Capitalist Feudalism run by oligrarchs with a circus called "Democratic Elections''. I live in it and support it, but Im also realistic of our current situation.

I remember watching an interview with former Finnish PM Alexander Stubb. I found his lies quite entertaining, about his projected Finnish victimhood. He kinda forgot to mention how Finland invaded Russia in 1921, allied with the Nazi's and then planned to attack again in 1940s.



''Try and explain to Ukrainians that it isn't really Putin's Russia that is destroying their country and killing them.''

Perhaps you should develop a fuller understanding than Karen from BBC news.

Арсен said...

@Rob
"Europeans are acting against their own interest, and in fact trade & cooperation with Russia is better than being bannana republics of a collapsing Empire."
trade with Russia? are you kidding? Russia produces absolutely nothing that it could trade with the Europeans, it only trades in raw materials, oil and gas, which it actually pumps from the peoples it occupied, because all the oil is pumped in Siberia, diamonds and gold are others It also extracts raw materials not from the places where Russians live, but from where national minorities live. Russia in this regard is like a gas station country.
"I remember watching an interview with former Finnish PM Alexander Stubb. I found his lies quite entertaining, about his projected Finnish victimhood. He kinda forgot to mention how Finland invaded Russia in 1921, allied with the Nazi's and then planned to attack again in the 1940s "
You probably don’t know, but Russia occupied the lands of the Finno-Ugrians in the north, the Karelian Peninsula, look for ethnic maps of Eastern Europe from the 19th century. These are Finnish lands. And she rightfully wanted to return them to herself. these are not the lands of the Russian Slavs.

Davidski said...

@Rob

One thing that I'll never be able to understand is why Russian propaganda is so attractive to many people in the west.

It's so obvious and cliched that it's not even interesting let alone convincing.

Rob said...

@ Dave

Id suggest you watch analyses by US economists, strategists and former military. Pretty sure they're not Putin agents



@ Arsen

You speedily established yourself as being clinically retarded, so you're views are irrelevant, especially on Slavic history.
Funnily enough, Hollywood propaganda movies used hook-nosed Caucasians like yourself to play 'Russians' in movies, to impart a more 'other' apperance.
BTW, you should not call yourself Arsen, you disservice that name.


Арсен said...

@Rob "Id suggest you watch analyzes by US economists, strategists and former military. Pretty sure they're not Putin agents"
at least all these American former military politicians and economists can calmly speak out on this topic, without fear for their freedom and most importantly for their lives, they can criticize the presidential government. Try, you donkeyhead, speak out in Russia on the topic of the war in Ukraine, without speaking already about criticism of the rulers of the president or regime)

Rob said...

@ Arsen

''They can only blame the West, the USA, Biden, Trump, Obama, and other American and European presidents for everything. ''

Ive seen a couple of interviews of Russian diplomats & Putin, they seem very measured. They do not see Europe as an enemy, quite the contrary, and acknowledge the US as a having a place as world leaders. Compare that to the hyperbole & hysteria you hear from the warhawks schilling for their masters.
As for the rest of your claims, they're characteristically nonsense.

Davidski said...

@Rob

Russia is a dump. Right now it's only marginally better than North Korea, and that's the best thing I can say about it.

But the real problem is that this dump of a country is trying to impose itself on nice countries, including Poland.

That's a great concern to me.

By the way, I'm pretty sure your sources are people like Scott Ritter and Douglas McGregor, who've been totally wrong about the war in Ukraine every time they spoke on the topic.

I mean, this guy is obviously a total moron.

https://twitter.com/Anteportas7/status/1748648558209671646/photo/1

Арсен said...

@Davidski

By the way, this Scott Ritter is now traveling around the regions of Russia, on various TV shows and programs, telling them how bad America is, that Putin is right and he did the right thing in attacking Ukraine, just the other day he was in Chechnya, where he stood next to Ramzan Kadyrov, asked to lift sanctions from Kadyrov’s family (wives and children), in exchange for Ukrainian prisoners, and they forced Ukrainian prisoners to talk about it
https://youtu.be/KDuJyCdwt-g?si=28WIKuiESz9gggI3

Andrzejewski said...

@Arsen “ Israel jewish has every right to its own state.”

100%

Andrzejewski said...

@Davidski “One thing that I'll never be able to understand is why Russian propaganda is so attractive to many people in the west.”

It’s because Democrats made believe that Assange and Wikileaks were leaking secrets to Russia in what was falsely called “Russian collusion”. Thus, the DNC pitted Biden’s administration and its Deep State allies against Trump and his “American First” agenda. The constant Dem accusations of Trump colluding with Putin has created a false sense in the former’s base that Putin is allegedly the “good guy” versus Biden’s minions.

I voted for Trump mostly to stand up to the average Joe against the multinational Corporations’ increasing concentration of wealth and power at the expense of the American citizenry and Congress’ grifting on behalf of modern robber barons. I would’ve voted for Sanders instead had he remained a viable option.

Nevertheless I have always supported Ukraine in its defensive actions against Russian aggression and Israel’s against terrorist organization Hamas. Both Putins and Hamas murderous atrocities cannot be allowed to continue. I feel like under Trump both aggressions could’ve been averted.

Andrzejewski said...

@Ygor Coelho You wrote on one of the discussions in Quora about the origins of the Burushaski language that it has a small chance that it’s related to Yenisseyan languages because they could’ve arisen in Kazakhstan or Central Asia. Are you alluding that you made an affinity between Botai/Kelteminnar/WSHG and Yeniseyan?

Rob said...

@ Davidski

''Russia is a dump. Right now it's only marginally better than North Korea, and that's the best thing I can say about it.

But the real problem is that this dump of a country is trying to impose itself on nice countries, including Poland.

That's a great concern to me.''


Putin has no intentions for Poland. Russia isn't like North Korea, it's infrastructure is stable and has redirected its gas exports. It has a viable demography, lots of parks and fresh air, with nuclear families and lots of children. Sadly, better than many parts of Chicago or LA

I think countries like Hungary, Slovakia and parts of the Balkans are right to follow their own path, and Poland should do so too. Even the Croats are sobering up to the empty ticket they were sold.


@ Andrze

I also think Israel has a right to exist and am against Islamic Fundamentalism, but I dont think a right-wing ruling elite should destabilise the Middle East with the aid of US military.

Gio said...

@ Rob

Accept that the origin of R1b1 and subclades is a little westward than your Serbia or nearby and I'll stop to write in the blogs because you are another "Gio". You know that I largely agreed with you just from the first letters we exchanged. Of course the same politics drives Harvard and its genetics.
Of course meanwhile I went further: the Afro-islamic hell is our Gaza.

Steppe said...

@ Andrzejewski


Nahali definitely has a lot of Indo-Aryan, Dravidian and Austroasiatic loanwords, Burushaski I would take from it because I think it emerged later than Andaman or Australian languages ​​perhaps with an ANE rich population who migrated from the Tarim Basin to the subcontinent?? Greenberg categorizes Tasmanian, Andamanian, Papuan, Vedda, Negrito (their original language) into one group but not the Australian languages. In any case, the early Australian groups migrated to the Sahul continent via the prehistoric landmass of Sunda 60,000 years ago and populated the western and eastern coastal strips of Australia from the north and thus spread more isolated languages. However, I think the Pama-Nyunga language family only came later Papa Neo-Ginea influenced northern Australia and then spread rapidly southward, replacing other ancient languages, and thus Tasmanian may be older.

Davidski said...

@Andrzejewski

Trump and his MAGA Republicans are openly anti-NATO and pro-Russian. No one can deny this fact, because MAGA tards don't even try to hide it.

There are different reasons for this, but the main ones are Russian propaganda and the fact that some Republicans have been corrupted by Russian money.

So it's ridiculous to suggest that Putin is scared of Trump and that he wouldn't have invaded Ukraine if Trump was president. Putin thinks Trump is a useful idiot and he wants him to be the president.

Indeed, if Trump wins the next election it's very likely that he'll stop US aid to Ukraine and might even pull the US out of NATO. That's exactly what a useful idiot president would do.

And this would be a disaster for Ukraine and even Poland, because it would encourage Russia to keep fighting in Ukraine and even attack NATO countries like Poland and the Baltic states.

You seem to have been significantly affected by online Russian propaganda. You need to think more objectively and critically about the world instead of parroting some MAGA nonsense that you see online.

Davidski said...

@Rob

Putin's next targets are Moldova, the Baltic states and Poland, probably in that order.

He'll make his move very soon if Trump wins the election.

If Trump loses, it'll take a little longer. But it's generally accepted that Poland now has only a short time to get ready for a direct conflict with Russia.

Steppe said...

@ Davidski

I read Alexander Dugin's book, totally sick, Poland must disappear from the map as a Roman Catholic state and Germany can only continue to live as a whore of Russia, I think Putin is heading in that direction. In any case, Putin started a war of aggression and certainly killed Prigozhin when he realized that this war had no purpose and that he had lost many of his best men. Of course Russia has to lose this war but the Ukrainians are not children of sadness either: a lot of corruption, human trafficking... and of course the stories of Bandera and the massacre in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia but you shouldn't lump everyone together, there are good and bad People just like Russians and Ukrainians

Rob said...

@ Gio

“ Accept that the origin of R1b1 and subclades is a little westward than your Serbia or nearby and I'll stop to write in the blogs because you are another "Gio".”

It’s hard to know what you’re saying, but I’m not Serbian and I accept adna evidence, not STR letters from the past. You should too

Rob said...

@ Dave
Let’s see . So far your prediction about Covid vaccines were wrong, so…

Davidski said...

@Rob

Covid vaccines appeared at about the time when I said they would, and they did what I expected that they would do, which is more or less control Covid.

I'm fully vaccinated and I had no problems with Covid or any of the Covid vaccines, again, as predicted by me.

Steppe said...

@ Rob

I went through COVID three times without vaccination, the first time it was bad, the second time I barely noticed anything and the third time nothing. Meanwhile the immune system has adapted, the risk of infection is highest in winter

Gio said...

@ Rob

I said "Serbia or nearby". You excluded Serbia. Exclude nearby too. You don't know my position because Davidski publishes only some of my letters but not all. I'll send the last to your Messenger account where we exchanged hundreds of letters.
About my STRs analyses I won the most. About others I am waiting for other results, for instance about R-V1636 and many others.

Rob said...

@ steppe

Yeah i had it too, fevers & feeling lousy for 2 days. Shook it off with some whisky. Left me looked leaner & even more mean.


@ Davidski


''Covid vaccines appeared at about the time when I said they would, ''

LOL I'm fairly sure the implementation of covid vaccines were common knowledge. The point is they were probably ineffective, unethically imposed on society & an experiment on public obedience. Soon, they'll do more shutdowns, perhaps incl. for 'climactic omission reduction'.

Davidski said...

@Rob

I'd say that you should try to get your news from different sources, because at this point you sound like a Karen hooked on a QAnon Youtube channel.

Rob said...

@ Davidski- I don’t really know what QAnon is because I’m not a 23 year old gamer, and get your own jokes .
I get my information from inside the medical industry, as you know.

Davidski said...

@Rob

Right, the consensus within the medical industry is that Covid vaccines were "probably ineffective, unethically imposed on society & an experiment on public obedience"?

Or is that just your crazy uncle's position?

Арсен said...

@Steppe

This is exactly what Putin’s goals are, to control as much land as possible, as much territory as possible, so that the remaining countries are forced to bend to Putin and his opinion, he will simply buy all the Slavic politicians so that they unite with Russia without a fight, since, the more territories, the more financial pressure he has, the more he controls sea routes, the more he controls all processes, he can even leave the rest of the non-Slavic countries, like Germany and France, and will simply pull their strings as his puppets giving them their dividends. This is a real imperialist and the majority of the Russian people are sick with these ideas.

Steppe said...

@ Арсен

Strangely enough, it is mostly Russians and Russian-Germans (Spätaussiedler) from Germany and the West who are more Putin fans, as are German-Turks with Erdogan, which looks a little different in countries like Russia or Turkey.

Rob said...

@ Davidski

''Right, the consensus within the medical industry is that Covid vaccines were "probably ineffective, unethically imposed on society & an experiment on public obedience"?

Or is that just your crazy uncle's position?''


No thats' my position and that of many within the fraternity. It's stuff you learn in first year of medical school - the Hippocratic oath and Nurembourg laws, the need for evidence, etc
You evidently dont know that because you're -what - a journalist ? who needs vaccines to survive, maybe you should get fitter

Atm you're sounding like your retarded little court jester, Arsen.

Steppe said...

With the COVID vaccination, everyone has to know for themselves, there are people who have massive problems (fever every month, deafness, heart problems...) and others don't, time will tell whether the COVID vaccination was a complete success, in any case with hepatitis and childhood illnesses Case (classic vaccine) I have my skepticism about COVID as I did about swine flu back then, this vaccination was also withdrawn from circulation.

Davidski said...

@Steppe

I don't know anyone who had any problems with the Covid vaccines.

But I do know people who had problems from Covid and long Covid, including someone who died from a Covid-related pulmonary embolism.

This is in line with all of the scientific literature that I've read on the topic.

Арсен said...

@Rob ,It seems to me that Rob has overdosed on democracy, people like Rob in European countries lack a strong hand, communism and dictatorship. You chose the wrong country to live in, Rob, oh yes, come to us, to Russia. and the only reason you will be rich is if you start stealing.

Davidski said...

@Rob

Covid vaccine conspiracies are a spin-off from the Operation Infektion psyop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR_6dibpDfo

Арсен said...

@Steppe

I don’t understand those who are skeptical about Covid; it is a very contagious disease, and it is very lethal, this was especially reflected in Dagestan.
A lot of people from small villages died, some cemeteries were overcrowded, all because of high thrombophilia among the population.

Steppe said...

@ Davidski

That's also true that there is long COVID due to the disease but also due to the vaccination (but not in all people) there are even lawsuits against Biontec/Pfizer but every person is different, I have a friend who constantly has problems with his feet after the vaccination (severe numbness) but also a person who died from COVID 19, the topic of vaccine damage is now slowly being recognized in society, there are some doctors who no longer want to administer vaccines (COVID-19).

Steppe said...

Sorry wrong, skeptical about the COVID 19 vaccines, I have never denied the disease and there are different variants

Gaska said...

@Dospaises

Congratulations, it has only taken you ten years to recognize that ATP3 is at least P297, the marker downstream M269 has also been confirmed by Spanish geneticists, I am sure that in another ten years you will also end up recognizing it.

You are agreeing with me on Smyadovo and Trou Al’Wesse both are M269, so what disinformation are you talking about??? and of course there is carbon 14 data in the Belgian chimney burial, you should study a little more.

ph2ter said...

@Rob: "I think countries like Hungary, Slovakia and parts of the Balkans are right to follow their own path, and Poland should do so too. Even the Croats are sobering up to the empty ticket they were sold."

What you are talking about? We are happy being part of €, EU and NATO.
We know very well what "the Russian world" means. It is in line with "the Serbian world".
The Serbian world is a program of Greater Serbia and the new cycle of Balkan wars (Serbia is a copy of Russia, we always knew that). If Putin wins in Ukraine it means new wars in Europe.
Putin was not afraid of NATO expansion. He is afraid of democracy.
And his factory of lies will turn the world into wars because of the western idiots like Trump and plain people that do not understand anything.
With social networks you can do what ever you want. In this world there is no shortage of idiots and greedy people among politicians.
And Putin knows that.
What can you expect of a alliance made of Russia, North Korea, Iran and China?
It is sad that Americans do not understand that.

Rob said...

@ ph2ter

pay closer attention to what has been said instead of deflecting onto selective remembrances about the 90s lest we reminded you about the collaborationist 40s.
How did you misinterpret “going your own path” as becoming serbia , Russia or North Korea. The EU is a great idea but it’s morphing into something bad, it’s surprising you can’t see it. You shouldn’t argue with caricatures of reality, because the EU is a small part of the world, and the future lies with a greater collaboration, not an EU puppet state.
But if you want to fight for Israel or Ukraine, good luck, but you won’t be around to create your maps too long

It’s fun to demonise trump, sure he’s got his negatives. But he started 0 wars (“spreading democracy”, as you might term it), wanted to focus on building US and likes women. What a psychopath ! It’s bizarre you interpret this as him being a Russian puppet.

Davidski said...

@Rob

The idea that the EU is morphing into something bad is Russian propaganda.

This propaganda is designed to deflect attention away from the fact that Russia has already morphed into something extremely bad.

It's also used to try and paralyze the EU politically and even to push member states out of the EU to isolate them.

That's because Russia can't deal effectively with a united Europe. It only has a chance of taking over countries like Poland if they're isolated, especially if they're no longer in the EU and NATO.

This is exactly the agenda that is being pushed by Trump and many Republicans under the guise of isolationist America first MAGA politics.

In reality, these people are Russia's useful idiots.

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