Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages (McColl et al.) The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans (Lazaridis et al.) A genomic history of the North Pontic Region from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age (Nikitin et al.)All of these studies are very useful, but there are some problems with each of them. Indeed, I'd say that the authors of the Lazaridis and McColl preprints need to reevaluate the way that they use ancient DNA to solve their linguistic puzzles. Once they do that their conclusions are likely to change significantly. I'm aiming to produce a couple of detailed blog posts about these preprints within the next few weeks. Afterwards I'll get in touch with the relevant authors to change their minds about some key things. Please stay tuned. See also... Indo-European crackpottery
Friday, April 19, 2024
It's complicated
Three important manuscripts appeared recently at bioRxiv, mostly dealing with the origins and expansions of proto-Germanic and proto-Indo-European populations.
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«Oldest ‹Older 1201 – 1262 of 1262Regarding this talk of R1b and Turkic connections,
R-M73 clades show up in various Scythian (and thus IE speaking) populations, including eastern Scythians which happen to be a significant source of Y-DNA for turkic peoples. There also is Hunnic period sample DA92 with nearly 30% WSHG-related ancestry who had this lineage, so perhaps some peripheral Siberian people of this time period had this clade as well, but its also possible that this individual had excessive siberian ancestry but had a Scythian paternal line.
Suggesting a "strong connection" between R-BY14355 and the Turkic peoples is odd to me, when we literally track the assimilation of this clade into Turkic speaking communities in the ancient DNA record. We see it in the Tarim Basin first with the Xiaohe-Gumugou peoples and their R-FTB1 clade, with a relative clade in bronze age SCA. The main clade R-PH155 shows up in the Tarim Basin (Zaghunluq) and eastern Xinjiang (Shirenzigou) first, then during the Xiongnu period we see it amongst people with this Xinjiang/Eastern steppe mixed profile as well as individuals with more significant eastern ancestry. Pretty easy to figure out what happened here.
If you look into the data from relevant time periods it should be clear that the clades of importance for Early Turks are C-Y10420 and N-M2019, not R1b clades from vulture eating ANE desert dwellers or iron age populations west of the Khangai mountains.
@Kevin Brook
Your response was interesting and I'm glad we came to a general agreement. I should say that I am not saying that Poles who show, lets say (and this is being liberal, very liberal) 1.4% Ashkenazi ancestry are just misreads. Usually these are cases below 1%. The actual comment was in response to Steven and Davidski's conversation on a blog claiming 'Poles get 0.8% Ashkenazi on modern DNA tests which means they all by in-large have Ashkenazic ancestry'. Naturally this is a dubious claim and no study has ever found anything like this either.
In regards to records I am aware of the Frankists. However, there is a reason I did not mention them. They were not a large enough population to alter the Polish genome in any reasonably amount of time and we cannot easily track these converts. They were not a common group of people and were seen as heretics by most Jews.
The number of estimated Frankist converts at their peak was estimated at 50,000 and many seemed to have been around urban areas such as Warsaw and previously Lwów. Where they all went, if some re-converted, who left descendants all becomes problematic and their numbers were just too small to do any real impact in such a short period of time with various possible barriers. It should also be stated that the Frankist movement was elitist in nature and was mostly sought by middle-upper class Jews. These can naturally cause divisions and breeding biases to consider. I have no doubt some did leave descendants in Poland and Ukraine, however not enough to explain the, albeit rare minor Ashkenazic ancestry some Poles today have. It's grasping at straws slightly.
This is therefor why I stated most Jewish-Gentile intermarriages occurred in the middle of the 19th century as Poland began rapidly industrializing. The Frankists were simply too fringe and small to do any real impact and we're working with overtly specific individuals to explain the, although extremely rare current Ashkenazi ancestry in some Poles today.
@Noble Goth and @Davidski
Well it seems this isn’t too uncommon, at least based on the results posted on the Polish 23andme page over on Genarchivist. Seems like most Reddit pages of 23andme Polish and/or Lithuanian testers show some Ashkenazi admixture. If .8-2% isn’t a misreading, then it seems that it’s common Balto-Slavic and/or Germanic ancestry found in both Ashkenazis and Central-Eastern Europeans (Balts, Poles, Ukrainians, etc.).
@Assuwatama how did you get SAHG
I detect siberian_EBA or seima_turbino ancestry in swat_IA samples...
Target: Pakistan_Katelai_IA:I5396
Distance: 1.5346% / 0.01534645
46.8 Turkmenistan_Gonur_BA_1
36.2 Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
9.4 Kazakhstan_MLBA_Dali
7.6 seima_turbino
Target: Pakistan_Katelai_IA:I12471
Distance: 1.7196% / 0.01719605
41.4 Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
39.4 Turkmenistan_Gonur_BA_1
10.8 Kazakhstan_MLBA_Dali
8.4 seima_turbino
Target: Pakistan_Katelai_IA:I12445
Distance: 1.6528% / 0.01652828
44.2 Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
34.2 Turkmenistan_Gonur_BA_1
11.2 seima_turbino
10.4 Kazakhstan_MLBA_Dali
Adding more populations doesn't work either. 459 is really behaving weirdly...
Can someone cross check?
Seems like Armenia_LBA gives same distances as Kazakhstan_MLBA_Dali on G25 for Pakistan_Katelai_IA...
@Simon
I don't have much interest in the topic because I don't see 23andMe as any sort of authority on fine scale European genetic substructures.
Like I already said, their admixture test is very ambitious. Any test that claims to split relatively closely related West Eurasian populations at the haplotype level with an accuracy of almost 100% is extremely ambitious.
There's also the issue of sampling bias, because people who are more likely to be mixed are also more likely to take genetic tests to see how mixed they are.
Indeed, Poles from the countryside and small towns, who are unlikely to have had an Ashkenazi ancestor, are also unlikely to buy a test from 23andMe.
So I'm just going to ignore these online debates about 23andMe results that apparently prove beyond any doubt that someone has 0.8% Ashkenazi admixture, because they're not very useful.
Someone once shared it on this blog.
@Davidski
Do you have any opinions as to how J2b-L283 ended up in a Yamnaya burial in Moldova? Many seem to believe that this lineage was part of the original PIE populations centered around Sredny Stog, not unlike I-L701/L699. I have doubts about this because J-L283 was found in IA/Nuragic Sardinian males without any steppe autosomal input. Now it could have been severely diluted like in that Arslantepe V1636 male, or they could have been low coverage. Either way curious as to your thoughts on this, seeing that various online nationalists have seized this as being evidence that J2b-L283 was among the original PIEs, which it very well could have been.
@Assuwatama
Do I understand correctly that these are non-existent coordinates, these are calculated coordinates? does this mean that ancient people with such coordinates were not discovered?🤭😏🥺🙏😋😀👋
@Assuwatama
what do you think?
Target: Pakistan_Katelai_IA
Distance: 0.9202% / 0.00920165 | R3P
65.2 Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
31.2 Russia_North_Caucasus_MBA
3.6 China_YR_LN
or
Target: Pakistan_Katelai_IA
Distance: 0.9421% / 0.00942094 | R4P
48.0 Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
27.6 Uzbekistan_Bustan_BA
17.8 Russia_Afanasievo
6.6 Laos_Hoabinhian.SG
or
Target: Pakistan_Katelai_IA
Distance: 0.6615% / 0.00661528 | R4P
50.6 Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
26.8 Turkmenistan_Gonur_BA_1
19.2 Russia_North_Caucasus
3.4 CHN_Zongri_4500BP
@Assuwatama
Check it out:
https://i.ibb.co/cy74b8h/2024-07-04-04-06-52.png
The Zongri cluster brings together many samples from the Neolithic to the Late Bronze Age, so they can be conditionally taken as a Chinese source
@Simon Stevin
“@Davidski
Do you have any opinions as to how J2b-L283 ended up in a Yamnaya burial in Moldova? Many seem to believe that this lineage was part of the original PIE populations centered around Sredny Stog, not unlike I-L701/L699. I have doubts about this because J-L283 was found in IA/Nuragic Sardinian males without any steppe autosomal input. Now it could have been severely diluted like in that Arslantepe V1636 male, or they could have been low coverage. Either way curious as to your thoughts on this, seeing that various online nationalists have seized this as being evidence that J2b-L283 was among the original PIEs, which it very well could have been”.
Not only the samples of J2b-L283 found in Sardinia have no Yamnaya input in the autosome, but they separated from the upstream J-L283* 5600/5500 years ago, like the samples found in Russia and the Caucasus, and that falsify the mainstream theory that Sardinians are the EEF who came from Anatolia and that also hg J2b could have come from Middle East and recently. About that I wrote, as usual, tons of letters, and even though I admitted that this hg J2b may have come from around the Caucasus, even though I didn’t exclude that it could be present with hg I in western Europe in the Palaeolithic, its presence in Italy and Sardinia is older than its presence in the Balkans etc etc. In the past, fighting against Hunter Provyn and others, I hypothesized that an old minor subclade of J2b (J-P91) could be older even in Poland and Baltic and central Europe, but the oldest presence is always in Sardinia, and that could have to do with the same IE origin if it was linked above all with hg R1a, remained easternmost than hg R1b certainly present in the Alps 14000 years ago but very likely even 17000 years ago.
Yes 😌
Are these the average coordinate? They tend to give way too better distances for odd reasons...
Using same sources I only get 0.026 Distance...though a sample here or there is at 0.012....
For average_Scaled...
Target: Pakistan_Katelai_IA
Distance: 1.1424% / 0.01142447
44.0 Turkmenistan_Gonur_BA_1
41.6 Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
14.4 seima_turbino
Target: Pakistan_Katelai_IA
Distance: 0.7898% / 0.00789798
45.6 Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
36.2 Turkmenistan_Gonur_BA_1
12.6 Kazakhstan_MLBA_Dali
5.6 seima_turbino
Target: Pakistan_Katelai_IA
Distance: 0.9942% / 0.00994206
64.4 Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
25.4 Armenia_LBA
10.2 seima_turbino
@Simon
J2b doesn't look like a Sredny Stog lineage to me, nor even a typical Yamnaya lineage.
It seems to have been absorbed by post-Sredny Stog populations via contacts with various Caucasus-related groups.
@Assuwatama
Yes, these are the average values from David's list Global25_PCA_pop_averages_scaled. In the screenshot, each Katelai sample is shown separately for a better model of sources for the average of Katelai.
There are no strange reasons; if a population has been isolated since it originated from a mix, for example, of two ancestral populations, then the best model should be the average coordinates of all the points of the resulting population. I am not particularly familiar with the theory of this, but I think that is how it works.
Can someone check out this model on qpAdm
Pakistan_Katelai_IA with SiS_ba2 Armenia_LBA and Dali_mlba...
Traditional model with BMAC is giving 57% PC1 variance while switching it with Armenia_LBA is giving PC1 85% variance
@Davidski
“@Simon
J2b doesn't look like a Sredny Stog lineage to me, nor even a typical Yamnaya lineage.
It seems to have been absorbed by post-Sredny Stog populations via contacts with various Caucasus-related groups”.
Of course this is the natural conclusion by looking at the data at our disposal, but you aren’t an ingenue or a “levantinist-kurganist-levantist”, but perhaps a “kurganist-levantinist-kurganist”. Why don’t to think that hg J2b was in the Alps, as hg R1b1 and of course hg I2a, and migrated eastward like R-L23-Z2103 and I-M223 etc? The data at our disposal may permit also this hypothesis and the oldest presence in Sardinia, in Italy, the Balkans and Northern Europe could permit that,.
ISE01; Italy_Neolithic; J2a2-PF5008>L581>Z37823>PF5000 (xY29677,PF5016)
This J2a-PF5000* by Pribislav is upstream even ERS2364940 that is J-Y29677*, that is a downstream samples separated 9700 ybp and 28 SNPs only 500 years (from 10200 to 9700 ybp)? Ahhhh
Need the help of experts to vet these findings...
https://ibb.co/d6SVTBN
https://ibb.co/7bqLNhw
https://ibb.co/TMVNqHt
https://ibb.co/HByr4xQ
@Gio
Brother, J2b-L283 most likely from the Balkans or Anatolia
@Arsen
“@Gio
Brother, J2b-L283 most likely from the Balkans or Anatolia”
It is what pretty much all the people thinks, above all who is from the Balkans (but what have they to do with people of thousands of years ago? Not more than me from Italy) or the Caucasus like you, but I have been studying this matter from so many years and I know that nothing is discounted. You may see that more and more aDNA is tested, and more and more Italy and the Alps get the oldest samples. About hgs R1b1 (Villabruna 14000 ybp) and I-M223 (and even before Tagliente2) that is demonstrated. Let’s wait for other tests. I said many years ago that the Harvardians got the oldest Italian bones of the University of Pisa (Prof Francesco Mallegni) in exchange of the Harvardian-like lab in Florence, and very like this last finding from Apulia is due to them, the first man even though, probably, they had the permission only to test the mt….
Regarding the J2b L283 sample from Crihana Veche, Moldova (Movila Gologan Kurgan):
-Robust Proto Europoid
-Extremely pronounced muscle insertions
-At least 1.81m tall, one of the largest Yamnaya skeletons to date
-Modeled as Core Yamnaya 84%, Tell Yunatsite 16% (more likely Trypillian)
-Sits on the Dnipro Cline and Caucasus Lower Volga Cline
-Typical Yamnaya burial with atypical inventory, an arrowhead.
Per the preprint, Core Yamnaya forms somewhere between the Dnipro and Don Rivers around 4000 BCE and expansion around a half millennium later, approximately 3500 BCE. Preprint estimates 3642 BCE, J2b L283 mirrors this with 8 branches expanding during the Eneolithic forming at 3600/3500 BC, with many more between 3100/3000 BCE.
A slam dunk case for a Sredny Stog (Late SS between the Dnipro/Don Rivers) with western Core Yamnaya into the Balkans around 3000 BCE.
J2b L283 so far found amongst:
-Yamnaya
-Mycenaeans
-Cetina Culture
-Maros Culture (western Yamnaya derived)
-Illyrians
-Daunians
-Picenes
-La Tene Culture
-Western Hallstatt
-Etruscans
-Nuragic Sardinians
Where hasn’t J2b L283 been found?
-Anywhere in peninsular Europe during the Neolithic. Not in Varna, Karanovo, Gumelnitsa, Lengyel, Sopot, Cucuteni, Trypillian, Tiszapolgar, Bodrogkeresztur, Globular Amphora, or any other Neolithic group there.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/j-l283/
@Gio 🤌
@Simon and Davidski
'Well it seems this isn’t too uncommon, at least based on the results posted on the Polish 23andme page over on Genarchivist'
Genearchivist are known crackpots. Additionally, not to add onto Davidski's point directly, but 23%+&me reddit results are not a good sample for population genetics, fine-scale or not. The results are dealing with noise level instances at no more than 1%, this is not reliable data and as Davidski already mentioned twice, the Ashkenazi population has an extremely dominant effect on any sort of haplotype analysis which can cause issues like this. This is not data any sane person would use to make a broad claim on ancestry.
Again, not to add to Davidski directly again but he rightly put and as I have mentioned in an early response, Ashkenazi populations mostly, if not entirely lived in urban areas where trade and economy were possible occupations. Records support this and they support the low levels of inter-marriage which also occurred in urban areas mostly (and quite late in history all considered).
The last real issue is that Jews were still a minority population. They naturally had little to no genetic impact on their host populations. The Afrikaans of Southern Africa are a good example of this sort of effect.
Regardless, the fact no major study has ever mentioned even minor Ashkenazic ancestry in Poles, whether it be autosomal or haplogroups is quite telling. The past was far more tribal and bigoted, like it or not.
the Y-haplo de Villabruna seems an exception in the cluster he was included in (majority of Y-I2a?) and Villabruna shew some EHG input if I read well. 14000 BP is after the late heating shoot and then people were more and more rowming allover Europe (great increase in populations size); so no need of a glacial refuge in Italy for the people of the time. BTW even at the LGM very maximum, people were settled as far north as Belgium, even if sometimes, in the most northern places, we can suppose it was only during summer. Until more new data I keep on thinking Y-R1b V88 ancestors (upstream) and cousins appeared there coming from East.
Noble Goth wrote "Regardless, the fact no major study has ever mentioned even minor Ashkenazic ancestry in Poles, whether it be autosomal or haplogroups is quite telling." Sure they did. The 2013 study "The History of Slavs Inferred from Complete Mitochondrial Genome Sequences" found the Ashkenazi-specific haplogroup L2a1l2a in an ethnic Pole, the 2007 study "Complex interactions of the Eastern and Western Slavic populations with other European groups as revealed by mitochondrial DNA analysis" found the commonly Ashkenazic haplogroup K1a1b1a in ethnic Poles, and my 2022 study "The Maternal Genetic Lineages of Ashkenazic Jews" found the commonly Ashkenazic haplogroup K1a9 in an ethnic Pole. Autosomally, the 2009 study "Admixture between Ashkenazi Jews and Central Europeans" concluded that "1.8% of Polish [HLA] haplotypes [on chromosome 6] may be of Ashkenazi origin".
In evaluating the potential Ashkenazic ancestry of a Polish person who matches Jews, I often take into account Davidski's Eurogenes K36 calculator's results. If the Pole scores 0% in all West Asian elements (Arabian, Armenian, East Mediterranean, Near Eastern, and West Caucasian), then we can usually rule out them having had a common Ashkenazic ancestor and instead assume that their common ancestor was a Pole. But some Poles do show one or more of those elements and some of those people are not part-Armenian ethnically but 1 or 2 percent Ashkenazic. The Polish GEDmatch tester I mentioned above who has 5 Jewish (Ashkenazic and Sephardic) segments scores 1.34% Armenian and 0.47% West Caucasian in Eurogenes K36.
@Kevin Brook
Maybe I worded myself incorrectly, but no major study has shown widespread Ashkenazic ancestry in Poles, that's the point. MtDNA L is extremely uncommon in Poland in general and (to my memory) doesn't even make up 0.5 if the paternal lineages in Poland. The maternal pool of Poland has had little shift since the Iron age.
Additionally, using a 2009 study is dubious. Studies from so long ago are known for errors or various misunderstandings and then isn't limited to Polish genetics either. Davidski has already made a comment on this blog-post in regards to the issues in separating Ashkenazic and Polish haplotypes - using a study from 15 years ago just seems to be grasping, especially when we know the issues that can be caused in regards to haplotype analysis with Slavs and Ashkenazis.
The only real issue with K36 is again, it's a sweeping statement. Some Poles do have Ashkenazic ancestry, that isn't out the question. The issue is most do not. We have a good record date of when Jewish and Gentile marriages began to occur and much of the time any sort of test or analysis is able to show that. I've played around with G25 and you have sparked an interest in regards to how you fiddled with K36 to test a few more options, but regardless, out of the samples provided on the Eurogenes blog for Poles, about 2 show clear Ashkenazic ancestry using the Natufian component as a defining reference, and 1-2 others if my memory recalls correct that show possible Ashkenazic ancestry. Regardless, I'll do some more digging in regards to it and play around with it when I have some time too.
Cheers for some insight. I clearly need to re-work my wording to be more suited for others to understand my points. I'll give your paper a read as well given how recent it is.
It's not controversial for an ethnic Pole to actually have 0.8% Ashkenazi ancestry that shows up consistently in different tests.
But that HLA study is controversial. HLA genes don't provide useful data for admixture because they're affected by selection.
It seems that Pribislav didn’t check the 17000 years ago sample from Apulia we spoke above about. He has been our Italian-Iberian who made that:
As per the BAM file (a whopping 70+ Gigabyte file) was I2a1a1 I-CTS595*(xCTS2879,S19554). He had roughly half of the I2a1a1a SNPs as positive and the other half negative.
I-M26 is at the same level as I-L158 as per YFull and I listed all the I-L158 calls in my prior post. Either way, below is the list of all the Derived and Ancestral calls ("State" column).
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1...ue&sd=true
This time Pribislav won’t be able to say that people of Apulia did come from the Balkans, we have Tagliente 2, this person all of 17000 years ago, and the 40% of Sardinians and probably they spoke the Caucasian languages of the Alps (Old Sardinian and Basque now), thus his old ancestor were “Italians”, “Palaeolithic Italians”.
@ Moesan
''the Y-haplo de Villabruna seems an exception in the cluster he was included in (majority of Y-I2a?) and Villabruna shew some EHG input if I read well. 14000 BP is after the late heating shoot and then people were more and more rowming allover Europe (great increase in populations size); so no need of a glacial refuge in Italy for the people of the time''
Agree. I think Villabruna cluster is an unfortunate name, as VB is late Epigravettian and already has some EHG , and the obviously distinctive Y-hg
'Tagliente' cluster would be a better name, with the understanding Italy is not the source of this population
@ Gio
'This time Pribislav won’t be able to say that people of Apulia did come from the Balkans, we have Tagliente 2, this person all of 17000 years ago, and the 40% of Sardinians and probably they spoke the Caucasian languages of the Alps (Old Sardinian and Basque now), thus his old ancestor were “Italians”, “Palaeolithic Italians”''
Slavic-related I2a-CTS10228 is different to I2a-M26.
The presence of I2a in post-Ice Age italy imples large migration into the peninsula after the LGM
@ Davidski
''J2b doesn't look like a Sredny Stog lineage to me, nor even a typical Yamnaya lineage.
It seems to have been absorbed by post-Sredny Stog populations via contacts with various Caucasus-related groups.''
in their haste to prove J2b2 is a 'typical Yamnaya lineage'', some internet genealogists for some reason omit the fact that J2b2 appears with the Majkop-related Zhivotolovka Volchansk context
@Rob
"@ Gio
'This time Pribislav won’t be able to say that people of Apulia did come from the Balkans, we have Tagliente 2, this person all of 17000 years ago, and the 40% of Sardinians and probably they spoke the Caucasian languages of the Alps (Old Sardinian and Basque now), thus his old ancestor were “Italians”, “Palaeolithic Italians”''
Slavic-related I2a-CTS10228 is different to I2a-M26.
The presence of I2a in post-Ice Age Italy imples large migration into the peninsula after the LGM"
Rob, I have to search when you begin to write about this matter. When I began, all people thought that there was no refuge in Italy, that all came "Ex Oriente lux", some people translated Etruscan and Italian through Albanian (that has 40% of Latin words) etc. I remember that I-M223* expanded from Mesolithic Italy and it is the ancestor of all the eastern hg I. Let's wait for other tests. I explained in my posts why Harvard doesn't do that, but my posts weren't published.
Possibly interesting for you y-chromosome heads:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.07.05.602100v1.full.pdf -
"Resolving the source of branch length variation in the Y chromosome phylogeny"
"Abstract - Genetic variation in the non-recombining part of the human Y chromosome has provided important insight into the paternal history of human populations. However, a significant and yet unexplained branch length variation of Y chromosome lineages has been observed, notably amongst those that are highly diverged from the human reference Y chromosome.
Understanding the origin of this variation, which has previously been attributed to changes in generation time, mutation rate, or efficacy of selection, is important for accurately reconstructing human evolutionary and demographic history.
Here, we analyze Y chromosomes from present-day and ancient modern humans, as well as Neandertals, and show that branch length variation amongst human Y chromosomes cannot solely be explained by differences in demographic or biological processes.
Instead, reference bias results in mutations being missed on Y chromosomes that are highly diverged from the reference used for alignment.
We show that masking fast-evolving, highly divergent regions of the human Y chromosome mitigates the effect of this bias and enables more accurate determination of branch lengths in the Y chromosome phylogeny.
Finally, we show that this approach allows us to estimate the age of ancient samples from Y chromosome sequence data and provide updated TMRCA estimates using the portion of the Y chromosome where the effect of reference bias is minimised."
@Gio
Personally i don't think there were no refuge in Italy. It would be ridiculous thinking like that. My thoughts is that all the people rowming around Italy after the LGM may not be put in the "refuge" sack. It has been a time every people and every Y-haplo (and every language) was coming from the Near-East or south the Caucasus, I would not believe now that every people and every Y-haplo came from an Italian refuge. Every case deserve data and good interpretation.
@Moesan
It is worth noting that Italy is a good candidate for refuge of peoples during the Ice Age, the Alps protect the Italian Peninsula from cold air masses from the north even in the coldest times of the year, as well as the fact that it is surrounded by the Mediterranean Sea on all sides, softens and moisturizes the climate this peninsula, so it is likely that there was a high population density there during the last ice age, the same applies to Georgia, it is also covered from the north by the Caucasus ridge, which prevents the penetration of cold air masses from the north, and even in the coldest times the temperature it rarely drops below zero, this applies to the entire Black Sea coast, on the southern slopes of the Caucasus ridge
@Moesan
@Gio
Personally i don't think there were no refuge in Italy. It would be ridiculous thinking like that. My thoughts is that all the people rowming around Italy after the LGM may not be put in the "refuge" sack. It has been a time every people and every Y-haplo (and every language) was coming from the Near-East or south the Caucasus, I would not believe now that every people and every Y-haplo came from an Italian refuge. Every case deserve data and good interpretation.
This is just the prejudice of the "Ex Oriente lux", shared by the Harvardians for religious prejudices, sponsored and pour cause by the FTDNA, and just for the last facts (wars I do mean) the same FTDNA is abandoning if they say: "It very much looks like an out of Italy near the end of the Ice Age, showing first in France shortly after the great Ice Melt", and I can not say more because Davidski wouldn't publish that. Yours is the same line of the "Southern Arc" theory, but my hg, R1b1 etc, did come from Southern East Asia and Siberia before arriving in the Alpine zone, and our Language, probably due to the brother group R1a remained easternmost, came from the Siberian corridor. No old R1b has been found in Anatolia, Middle East, Iran.
@Gio
you wrote: "Yours is the same line of the "Southern Arc" theory"
Absokutely not. I don't see how. I just say I'm doubtful about theories tending to localize a lot of diverses lignages and cultures in a same peculiar region. These kind of "wombs" of Humanity here ad there according to diverse believings or agendas. I rather agree with you Y-R1b had not dwelled in Near-East surroundings, Anatolia or Iran until relatively recent times ( Chalco or just before?).
@Moesan
"@Gio
you wrote: "Yours is the same line of the "Southern Arc" theory"
Absokutely not. I don't see how. I just say I'm doubtful about theories tending to localize a lot of diverses lignages and cultures in a same peculiar region. These kind of "wombs" of Humanity here ad there according to diverse believings or agendas. I rather agree with you Y-R1b had not dwelled in Near-East surroundings, Anatolia or Iran until relatively recent times ( Chalco or just before?)"
I appreciate your admission about R1b, but it was easy to do that after all the aDNA tested and the millions that who own the finance of the Western World spent for testing Anatolia and Middle East. It was more difficult 20 Years ago when Underhill and his sponsors wrote the papers about R1a in Iran, but my theory is wide and you don't know all of that, because you don't know all what I wrote and published in all my life, the first the poems when I was 17, in 1965.
@ Arsen
“ It is worth noting that Italy is a good candidate for refuge of peoples during the Ice Age, the Alps protect the Italian Peninsula from cold air masses from the north even in the coldest times of the year”
That doesn’t change the fact that we have clear genetic evidence of population change in Italy before & after the ice age
@ Gio
“ Rob, I have to search when you begin to write about this matter”
About Italy in the ice age specifically ? :)
@Rob
"@ Gio
“Rob, I have to search when you begin to write about this matter”
About Italy in the ice age specifically ? :)
If you are who I thought you were, you are much younger than me, and, as I said in the answer to Moesan below, I have been writing about these arguments from 60 years, not only about genetics of course, but about all the rest, that I think influences also genetics, even though many would prefer to keep them separated.
@Gio
May I ask you your age?
@Arsen
"@Gio
May I ask you your age?"
Of course, all my data is public, and all my DNA tests. I was born on 5 March 1948.
AHAHAH, IF 17000 YEARS AREN’T ENOUGH
(Yesterday, 10:39 PM)CowboyHG Wrote:I think the persisting puzzle of WHG is the nature of 'West Asian' admixture.
From what I've seen Pinarbasi, Kotias_UP and Dzudzuana all appear as valid sources (Tagliente, ST, etc don;t really require additional ANE).
But the difficulty lies in characterizing the nature of the west Asian signal, due to the lack of a clear archaeological or uniparental 'trail' for migration into Europe from Anatolia or the Caucasus c. 20,000 bp
There's a few different possibilities. Each generating it's own set of consequences.
1) Georgia_UP > WHG
Consequence: WHG > Pinarbasi, unaccounted for affinity between WHG and IBM.
Italy_Tagliente_HG
Gravettian_Italy 0.455511 0.0335358 13.5829
Gravettian_France_Fournol 0.102969 0.0291348 3.53423
AG3 0.100565 0.0222039 4.52915
Dzudzuana 0.340955 0.0299383 11.3886
Tail: 0.20
right = c('Congo_Mbuti.DG', 'ZlatyKun.SG', 'Ust_Ishim.DG', 'BachoKiro_IUP', 'China_UP', 'Andaman_100BP.SG', 'RUS_Primorsky_DevilsCave_N.SG', 'Kostenki14', 'Sunghir.SG', 'Muierii1', 'Gravettian_KremsVestonice', 'GoyetQ116_1', 'BachoKiro_BK1653', 'Yana_UP.SG', 'MA1.SG', 'Peru_RioUncallane_1800BP.SG', 'Kotias_UP.SG', 'Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG')
allsnps=TRUE
2) Pinarbasi > WHG
Consequence: Unaccounted for affinity between WHG and Georgia_UP
Italy_Tagliente_HG
Gravettian_Italy 0.470362 0.0311741 15.0882
Gravettian_France_Fournol 0.108964 0.0260019 4.19063
AG3 0.0841425 0.0204118 4.12224
Anatolia_Boncuklu_N 0.336531 0.0260073 12.9399
Tail: 0.21
right = c('Congo_Mbuti.DG', 'ZlatyKun.SG', 'Ust_Ishim.DG', 'BachoKiro_IUP', 'China_UP', 'Andaman_100BP.SG', 'RUS_Primorsky_DevilsCave_N.SG', 'Kostenki14', 'Sunghir.SG', 'Muierii1', 'Gravettian_KremsVestonice', 'GoyetQ116_1', 'BachoKiro_BK1653', 'Yana_UP.SG', 'MA1.SG', 'Peru_RioUncallane_1800BP.SG', 'Anatolia_Epipaleolithic', 'Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG', 'Taforalt')
allsnps=TRUE
3) 'CWE' > WHG & Near-East
Consequence: Georgia_UP and Pinarbasi have different streams of Basal ancestry. Taforalt = CWE + ANA. WHG = CWE + Gravettian + ANE
It dates back to approximately three thousand years ago and the ancestor who carried the pathogenetic variant responsible for hereditary breast cancer was from Garfagnana or Versilia. This is what emerged from the study coordinated by Maria Adelaide Caligo, director of the Molecular Genetics section of the Aoup, according to which the presence of this variant would determine a particularly high percentage of developing breast cancer (between 45 and 79%) and ovarian cancer (between 39 and 48%).
It depends on whether this variant indicates only local spread or whether it indicates its origin. In this case it could be proof of what I wrote about the origin of the Ashkenazi Jews not only from Imperial Rome but specifically from our Garfagnana-Versilia area, already detected for other mutations present in Ashkenazi Jews such as at least two other genetic diseases that I have once indicated.
@Gio
wow. you are not much older than my late grandfather, and he couldn’t even use the TV remote control properly, let alone a computer or a telephone, respect!
@Davidski
Seeing that this Altoatesino/Tyrolean guy in Genarchivist uses your calculator, can you say your opinion about what he says?
https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?tid=980&pid=25728#pid25728
"Yes Basques are more WHG shifted than Spanish, Portuguese, Italians, Greeks etc but they have about half as much as Balts and Slavs who descend from the WHG resurgence in central/east Europe, especially Slavs. Basques have 1-2% WHG yDNA i2, their WHG ancestry is almost entirely from females. They have much more ANF autosomal and even yDNA".
Of course I have nothing against Austria. My daughter is now studying in Vienna and speaks perfectly German language and she feels very well up there, and, have I being against the war against Ussr in 1941, I think that the Alto Adige solution was good as would have been good also towards Slavs if History would have gone else and it would have been good also for other European lands, but his reasoning seems to me almost ideological. The WHG of Basque would have been pretty much due to females, but the Palaeolithic I2a-M26 is at 40% in Sardinia, and Sardinia is considered for the most part of EEF origin. My thoughts are that Basque and Old Sardinian spoke a Caucasian language of the Alpine region and it was the language of hg I2a (and I think also of hg R1b1 from east, i.e. Villabruna).
@Arsen
"@Gio
wow. you are not much older than my late grandfather, and he couldn’t even use the TV remote control properly, let alone a computer or a telephone, respect!"
I have no doubt that when you get your grandfather's age, you'll be able to use all these tools and the next to come, and don't forget that I am nothing respect these people much older than me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1wUNBxCsxc
but his best interpretation is this (hear his only):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V49yx8Ye38A
A little personal note. Menahem Pressler, an Ashkenazi, is the picture of the first cousin of my grandfather Alberto Tognoni (1892-1974), i.e. Orlando Tognoni, and Orlando Tognoni Jans is my grandson. I see in these faces the Siberian origin that I think is also of our Y's.
Here is the reconstruction of the Caucasian hunter from the Satanay cave, and you know what? he doesn't look Caucasian
https://x.com/Sulkalmakh/status/1811382208516567518
Population genetic admixture and evolutionary history in the Shandong Peninsula inferred from integrative modern and ancient genomic resources
https://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12864-024-10514-9
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.07.21.599526v1 - Long shared haplotypes identify the Southern Urals as a primary source for the 10th century Hungarians
During the Hungarian Conquest in the 10th century CE, the early medieval Magyars, a group of mounted warriors from Eastern Europe, settled in the Carpathian Basin. They likely introduced the Hungarian language to this new settlement area, during an event documented by both written sources and archaeological evidence. Previous archaeogenetic research identified the newcomers as migrants from the Eurasian steppe. However, genome-wide ancient DNA from putative source populations has not been available to test alternative theories of their precise source. We generated genome-wide ancient DNA data for 131 individuals from candidate archaeological contexts in the Circum-Uralic region in present-day Russia. Our results tightly link the Magyars to people of the Early Medieval Karayakupovo archaeological horizon on both the European and Asian sides of the southern Urals. Our analyes show that ancestors of the people of the Karayakupovo archaeological horizon were established in the Southern Urals by the Iron Age and that their descendants persisted locally in the Volga-Kama region until at least the 14th century.
Here's another addition in my favor: this person, whom I previously mentioned in this blog when discussing thrombophilia, gave a new interview-podcast. He says that almost 40% of the mitochondrial DNA found in Dagestanis is also prevalent in Europe, and he states that it originally came from Dagestan, dating back to at least the Neolithic period. This DNA spread to Europeans through Indo-European herders. He cautiously speculates why Dagestani female haplogroups are found among Europeans, but there are no male J1 haplogroups. This person, without knowing the autosomes, comes to the same conclusion as I did: that Indo-European herders are the product of Dagestani women and EHG (Eastern Hunter-Gatherer) men (in simplified terms). He doesn't know about the Yamnaya culture and Indo-European herders, etc., but based purely on mtDNA, he made the same conclusion.
https://youtu.be/cMtSEbJ-9RU?si=Kji58PS9AnuP7GnT&t=1460
@Matt
We already did know that from a paper of many years ago that I remember having read.
J2b and J2 as a whole is obviously related to Caucasus or EEF. The fact that there is 1 Yamnaya sample is pretty meaningless. The two hunter gatherer groups of the steppe were R1b in the east and I2 in the west. There will be minimal spillover from the Caucasus from Maykop groups or proto-Maykop groups to the flat lands but they are not indigenous to the territory. Just like R1b is not indigenous to Africa or anywhere in the Middle East, but indeed it is found there in a minority and through historical Bronze Age migrations, and the known event into SSA for V88. The Ra-Ra men who obviously carry J2 or in some cases E-V13 are a little tedious as it's well established these were completely different people from the beginning.
Genomelink has released a report on Basque ancestry. It's ridiculous: "Genetic studies have shown that the Basques are one of the most ancient populations in Europe, with a lineage that predates the arrival of Indo-European-speaking peoples. The Basques are believed to be direct descendants of the early hunter-gatherers who inhabited Europe during the Paleolithic era, around 35,000 years ago. Their genetic profile has remained remarkably stable over millennia, suggesting a high degree of continuity and isolation from other populations." LOL, the old theory of Basques being a WHG population still thrives, at least among the authors of genomelink.
Did someone see that formation of R1a-L657 in Y-full tree site is now 2350 BCE? Or this new tool to solve Y chromosome phylogeny?
https://tinyurl.com/4hbka9kc
@Davidski
What are your thoughts concerning EAS003, the so called “West African” Anglo-Saxon era Briton certain media outlets have been parading around? This came out of that 2022 Anglo-Saxon archaeogenetics paper. I’m not conspiracy minded, but this whole thing seems convenient and off. It’s extraordinary a genome like this would be discovered out of all the skeletal remains from Anglo-Saxon Britain. I found further analysis from some Genarchivist posters that points to a more realistic model of North African Berber descent, which has some additional West African (apparently preferably Central African) and East African admixture baked in. So unsurprisingly, the media is misrepresenting these findings—if they’re legit that is—to justify certain political agendas. However, the skeletal remains have no direct carbon dating, which makes me inclined to be skeptical. That and they’re apparently withholding her for further analysis (her own paper?). The handling of this whole thing reeks regardless imo.
So, according to David Reich there is a study upcoming on Dutch historical genetics. From farmers to Bell Beakers. And according to him there was full replacement. And subsequently they migrated to the UK.
Why's the sample Czech_IA:I7953 now considered a IA sample? Is this correct? In the paper Nick Patterson et al. 2021 it was presented as a Chalcolithic sample, about 2450 BC. In G25 it's closest to the outlier from Viking age Scotland, followed by the early Medieval Baiuvari.
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