This quote, from a new paper at Nature, High-resolution genomic history of early medieval Europe by Speidel et al., is the most idiotic take on the ancestry of present-day Hungarians that I've ever read.
Present-day populations of Hungary do not appear to derive detectable ancestry from early medieval individuals from Longobard contexts, and are instead more similar to Scythian-related ancestry sources (Extended Data Fig. 6), consistent with the later impact of Avars, Magyars and other eastern groups.
In fact, present-day Hungarians are overwhelmingly derived from West Slavic and German peasants, showing only minor ancestry from early Magyars (or rather Hungarian Conquerors). So in terms of genetic ancestry they're basically typical East Central Europeans.
Scythians and Avars don't even deserve a mention in this context.
The reason that Speidel et al. found present-day Hungarians to be broadly similar to Scythians is because they used so called Hungarian Scythians in their analysis.
It's important to understand that these Hungarian Scythians are genetically fairly typical Central Europeans for their time, and, by and large, don't show any significant genetic relationship to Asian Scythians, Avars or early Magyars. So they're mostly either just acculturated Scythians or wrongly classified as Scythians by archeologists.
That is, the broad similarity that Speidel et al. found between present-day Hungarians and Hungarian Scythians derives from the fact that both of these populations are genetically Central Europeans, rather than the ridiculously false idea that they show strong genetic links to Avars, Hungarian Conquerors and other eastern groups.
Here's a Principal Component Analysis (PCA) of West Eurasian genetic variation, courtesy of the excellent Vahaduo:Global25 Views, that perfectly illustrates my point.
I emailed two of the authors of this paper, Leo Speidel and Pontus Skoglund, when they posted the preprint of the paper at bioRxiv to cordially discuss this issue (see here). But they totally ignored me.
Citation...
Speidel et al., High-resolution genomic history of early medieval Europe, Published online: 1 January 2025, https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-024-08275-2
293 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 293 of 293@ Arsen- ok then. Good to see Putin turned your internet back on so you can update your intel
@Rob
Agree since a long time - but the late Urnfield phenomenon (spite not IE at first) involved a lot of diverse cultures among whom IE Celts, Italics, proto-Germanics, Etruscans, Illyrians and so on... the moves of people observed at those times seem linked to demographic increase of population, at least in some places, possible new religious believings and maybe ambitions doped by new weapons?
Haha... That was funny...
@ Mr Funk
Theoretically, If you had to choose, would you rather Dagestan be part of Russia, Kazakhstan, Turkey or Iran?
@Tom
Poland
@ Arsen/ Mr Funk
IMO you look more like Mr Bean than a Yamnaya warrior
@ Moesan
''he late Urnfield phenomenon (spite not IE at first) involved a lot of diverse cultures among whom IE Celts, Italics, proto-Germanics, Etruscans, Illyrians and so on... the moves of people observed at those times seem linked to demographic increase of population, at least in some places, possible new religious believings and maybe ambitions doped by new weapons?''
Yes, a mix of migration and cultural adoption. So the question is can we detect the movement of the origincal, core Urnfield folk
@CordedSlav
The Russo-Ukraine war is off topic here.
@ Davidski
Maybe you should share that advice with Mr Funk, who seems to consistently post his Twitter updates.
@Rob
anything is possible
snow-covered Elbrus against a clear sky
https://youtube.com/shorts/ZxUJyNUNsDU
Avar from the Kotias branch J2-SK1313
https://t.me/avardna/1218?single
Dumbass Americans are about to learn how tariffs work.
FAFO
Viking Raids in the Caspian Sea
https://x.com/Varangian_Tagma/status/1884979381317353538
I asked deepseak to clarify the meaning of Davidsky's last comment about Americans, and this is what he came up with:
**Interpretation in the Context of Global Events:**
1. **Criticism of U.S. Trade Policy:**
The comment targets recent U.S. decisions to impose tariffs, which critics argue could backfire. For example, aggressive tariff hikes on imports (e.g., Chinese goods, EU products) might trigger retaliatory measures from other nations, harming U.S. exporters and consumers. This reflects broader debates about protectionism versus free trade.
2. **Meaning of FAFO:**
The acronym "FAFO" ("Fuck Around and Find Out") implies that reckless or unilateral actions will lead to unintended consequences. Here, it suggests that the U.S. is "fucking around" with tariffs and will soon "find out" how damaging such policies can be—economically or geopolitically.
3. **Global Trends and Reactions:**
The remark aligns with growing frustration over escalating trade conflicts. Examples include:
- U.S.-China trade wars and semiconductor restrictions.
- Tensions with the EU over subsidies (e.g., the Inflation Reduction Act).
- Sanctions on Russia and their ripple effects on global markets.
Critics argue such policies disrupt supply chains, fuel inflation, and isolate the U.S. diplomatically.
4. **Tone and Sarcasm:**
The use of "dumbass" conveys disdain for U.S. policymakers perceived as overconfident or short-sighted. The sarcasm underscores a belief that the U.S. is ignoring historical lessons (e.g., the 2018-2019 tariff wars) and repeating mistakes.
---
**Conclusion:**
The comment blends criticism, mockery, and a warning. It reflects a view that unilateral U.S. trade actions—while politically popular domestically—risk alienating allies, provoking adversaries, and ultimately harming American interests. The phrase "learn how tariffs work" hints at a coming reckoning, where the U.S. might face economic blowback or diminished global influence.
@Mr Funk
But neither deepseek, the long better than what Americans were able to do, uderstands all. The question of the fentanyl should remember to the English Crown, the Yankees and their owners the Opium Wars and that history sooner or later sends the bill to pay.
When I spoke about the link of Uralic languages and IE I referred to something older than these links, which are very old too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz4jDTQc8Ik
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPaJJEI2yeA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abFQOlYVmko
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCVnvrr4-s4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfZGVjSvHZA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVACMUqBMpk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pGtEeEwYvA
@Gio What did you say about a Uralic-IE link? As for those videos, the first set from KELang are all right, but sometimes regurgitate obsolete research (e.g. loans like *porc'as from PIE when they have to be derived from Iranian or Balto-Slavic - see Holopainen 2019) or reconstructions (e.g. *tuxli, which is from Janhunen 1981; his theory of preconsonantal *x was already disproven in Aikio 2012). It's clear that the creator of those videos merely compiled floating excerpts from sources like Wiktionary. The second set from ILoveLanguages!, well we should all know by now their work is extremely unreliable; and to use Schleicher's Fable ("The Sheep and the Horse") for "Early Proto-Uralic", which was spoken by hunter-gatherers who didn't even have words for 'sheep' or 'horse' (see e.g. Aikio 2022), would be comical if it weren't so misleading to a general audience that wants to believe in deep theories like Indo-Uralic without ever reading a single publication. Apparently, that Proto-Uralic fable originates from a Youtuber named ABAlphaBeta, who either found it elsewhere or just made it up in bad faith: *kewe (UEW) does not mean 'sheep' in any Uralic language, and *lugV 'horse' is only found in the Ugric branch. Unfortunately, many proponents of Indo-Uralic like to push the "truth" as far as they can to serve their own wishes. If you'd like to read intelligent publications with a position on Indo-Uralic, some examples in support of the theory include Kallio 2018, Kassian & Zhivlov & Starostin 2015, and Hyllested 2004; and some against the theory include Grünthal et al. 2022, Holopainen 2020, and Ringe 2015.
@ Gio
Catholics & Orthodox shold stick together against the war-mongering rainbow- alphabet coalition, who seem to have purchased most EU politicians.
I think NATo and the EU will collapse in the next couple of years. Hopefully Europe re-invents itself, turns back to its roots, and does the needful
@Rob
"@ Gio
Catholics & Orthodox shold stick together against the war-mongering rainbow- alphabet coalition, who seem to have purchased most EU politicians.
I think NATo and the EU will collapse in the next couple of years. Hopefully Europe re-invents itself, turns back to its roots, and does the needful"
If you have carefully been reading part of my posts you should know that I am not a believer (I have been studying these arguments for all my life, at least from when i was 13 and read the "Lineamenti di storia delle religioni" of Ambrogio Donini) and all the faiths are whorf nothing to me. I dislike also who is for a Y marker against the others: not only R1b against R1a, which is absurd being them the sons of R1, but also hgs I, or J. I sopposed that probably they were linked in Europe in the Palaeolithic and I supposed that J2b expanded from central or Baltic Europe more than the Caucasus, and nothing against the Caucasus of course. I consider enemies, deadly enemies, who is against our identity, both in the body and in the mind, and of course I don't consider the Russians as enemies but of the same world… and my Y is probably "Russian" more than Italic, if not probably in older times.
@Finngreek
you are a professional linguist (perhaps of old knowledge), I am only an amateur, and I thank you for your suggestions. I convinced me that IE and Uralic were linked in the Palaeolithic when I was a "teen" and had my first grammar of Hungarian Language at hands. The conjugation of the verb convinced me, as Alfredo Trombetti linked Basque and Caucasian languages just through the conjugation of the verb. By looking Yesterday evening at a close link, I discovered the paper of our friend Davidski (who probably gets too many nicknames) that I didn't know and I'll study that with great pleasure, also because I have been studying these arguments for al my life (I know also Arbereshe Language) and writing about that and don't forget that Albanian Language has 40% of Latin words.
@Gio That's all fine, I just wanted to make sure you weren't misled by those resources. I am formally agnostic about Indo-Uralic; but there is a major quality control problem with Indo-Uralic research (It's not just a Carlos Quiles problem: There are many authors desperate to make Indo-Uralic seem true without proper evidence: Even professional linguists). Maybe Indo-Uralic is true, maybe it isn't - I lean towards "no", but I'm open to new research.
😨
@ FinnGreek
How would you personally explain some apparently “fundamental” lexical similarities between IE and Uralic ? (IIRC body parts , some family nouns, etc)
I asked chat gpity what she knows about Davidski, this is what she got
David Veselovsky, known by the pseudonyms Davidski and Polako, is the creator of the genetic calculator Eurogenes K36, developed in 2012–2013. This tool is designed for genome analysis, helping to determine the contribution of various ancient and modern populations to an individual's genetic makeup.
Eurogenes K36 classifies genetic samples into 36 population clusters, allowing users to identify their ancestral components. The calculator is available on GedMatch, where users can upload their genetic data to receive insights into their genetic origins.
Results from Eurogenes K36 are widely used in genetic research and personal ancestry analysis. For example, companies like Genotek utilize this tool to interpret the ethnic composition of their clients.
David Veselovsky has significantly contributed to the field of genetic ancestry analysis, providing researchers and enthusiasts with powerful tools to explore their genetic heritage.
@Rob can you try running Krivyansky as Aruchlo_LN_2/Caucasus_Eneolithic + Ekaterinovka + GK_Meso/Ukraine_N?
@Davidski
Rob wrote: "Catholics & Orthodox shold stick together against the war-mongering rainbow- alphabet coalition, who seem to have purchased most EU politicians.
I think NATo and the EU will collapse in the next couple of years. Hopefully Europe re-invents itself, turns back to its roots, and does the needful"
That's clearly referring to the Russo-Ukraine war! I thought that was off-topic here.
An investigation into the Early Bronze Age cemetery of Başur Höyük
"On the upper reaches of the Tigris and Euphrates, archaeologists encounter evidence that challenges conventional understandings of early state formation as a transition from ‘small-scale, egalitarian’ to ‘large- scale, stratified’ societies. One such location is the Early Bronze Age cemetery of Başur Höyük, which presents evidence of grand funerary rituals—including ‘retainer burials’ and spectacular deposits of metallic wealth—in an otherwise small-scale, egalitarian setting. A further, puzzling feature of this cemetery is the preponderance of teenagers in the richest tombs. Here we describe the combined results of archaeological and anthropological analysis at Başur Höyük, including ancient DNA, and consider the challenges they pose to traditional accounts of early state formation."
I guess we'll get another chance to see Lazaridis' "Hittites".
@Rob It's hard for me to comment on that without providing a specific resource, because that would allow us to factor in the quality of data and reputation of the author. What I will say to you, as I have already said in discussions with professional Uralicists, is that after many decades of research into Indo-Uralic by both mainstream linguists and hobbyists, there has been no agreement on a phonological paradigm by even those circles who promote the idea in their own research. Without a functional paradigm, Indo-Uralic can not be a proper theory. There may be similar-looking terms for family members, personal verb endings etc. across the "Eurasiatic/Nostratic" scenes that are considered for genetic relations, but that is a deeper-level matter than an exclusive IU theory. Nobody should be convinced that IU is real until its proponents have agreed upon how to reconstruct it. The only decent example I've seen of someone at least try to reconstruct PIU was in the aforementioned Hyllested, Adam 2004; but that research (or anyone's version of PIU) has not been relied upon since then by any mainstream proponents of IU. Instead, we have dozens of enthusiasts starting from scratch, trying to be the one who "cracks the code" and gets the glory - yet nobody has gotten it, despite the cult-like fixation many have on wanting IU to be true. We determined that Indo-European and Uralic were language families by reconstructing their ancestors. Although certain linguists have their own versions of how to properly reconstruct those lemmas via critical phonological review, we ultimately rely upon the same data. There is currently no equivalent standard for IU research - and it's not for lack of trying. The state of IU research can not be furthered until its proponents rely on the comparative method to reconstruct PIU. It's 2025 now, and we are still waiting.
@ Anon
I have it on another desktop, will post in a week
@ SimonW
Whoops my bad. But at least you, Kamala and Klaus Schwab can take refuge in Swiss Alps lair
@All
You can now get the G25 coords via this link.
https://g25requests.app/
@Davidski.
Great job 👍
@ FinnGreek
Thanks for your viewpoint.
@ EthanR
Well all data is good data. ;)
I took this from the telegram channel:
Academician Kh.A. Amirkhanov is a leading specialist in the field of prehistoric archaeology of the Caucasus.
The archaeologist noted that two paths of Neolithization can be identified in the Eastern Caucasus: classical and alternative.
1️⃣ **Classical Path**: This path is characterized by a comprehensive transformation of all aspects of life, including domestic, economic, and production spheres. In the Eastern Caucasus, it is represented by two variants: the **conversive (Shulaveri-Shomutepe)** and the **heterogeneous (Chokh)** variants.
2️⃣ **Alternative Path**: This path did not lead to significant sociocultural changes in the region under consideration. It was mainly limited to the improvement of hunting equipment and better adaptation to the relatively scarce resources of the area it spread to. In the Eastern Caucasus, this path is realized in the **Gobustan Neolithic culture**.
For Neolithization, Academician Kh.A. Amirkhanov proposed the following terms: conversive, evolutionary, and heterogeneous.
1️⃣ **Conversive**: Characterized by total cultural replacement or a fundamental change in the cultural complex (Shulaveri-Shomutepe variant).
2️⃣ **Evolutionary**: Involves gradual changes through an evolutionary path, mainly based on local cultural foundations (Gobustan variant).
3️⃣ **Heterogeneous**: Involves the formation of a Neolithic-type complex with the participation of various components rooted in a diverse cultural substrate. This type of Neolithization in the Eastern Caucasus is demonstrated by the **Chokh archaeological culture**.
**Conversive (Shulaveri-Shomutepe) Variant of Neolithization in the Eastern Caucasus**:
The conceptual approach to solving the problem of the origins of the main Neolithic culture of the Eastern Transcaucasia (Shulaveri-Shomutepe culture) among many researchers boils down mainly to two postulates:
- The roots of this culture go back to the local base (Kura Lowland, Armenian Highlands).
- The formation of the Neolithic had a linear development here, regardless of which specific local part of the Eastern Caucasus it was realized in.
**Evolutionary (Gobustan) Variant of Neolithization in the Eastern Caucasus**:
This variant is represented by materials from Gobustan. Changes associated with the transition from the Mesolithic to the Neolithic are limited here to typological and technological modifications of stone tools. They are not accompanied by the emergence of fundamental innovations such as the appearance of permanent settlements, domestication of agricultural animals, and cultivation of plants.
**Heterogeneous (Chokh) Variant of Neolithization**:
Clearly represented in the Chokh archaeological culture, this variant demonstrates the possibility of a more complex path of forming a Neolithic complex in a region like the one under consideration.
This model of Neolithization is characterized by the external borrowing of fundamentally significant technological innovations that change the cultural status but do not completely erase elements of typological specificity stemming from the indigenous local Mesolithic substrate.
Additionally, all this is combined with the emergence of cultural and economic inventory characteristic of the classical Neolithic with a producing economy.
Among the most important findings representing the cultural innovations of Chokh's Neolithic are undoubtedly archaeozoological and archaeobotanical remains.
East Germans show great affinity with Celts and Germanics (60-70%) even with a modern Polish-like source as "pure" Slavs, not need to use crappy Latvian proxy. The Early Slavs in Poland will generally resemble Belarussians/West Ukrainians the most, possibly with some outliers touching South Slavs (possibly mixed with Dacians near the border of Ukraine) and definitely there will be Latvians and Lithuanian outliers. The Y-DNA of the Slavs always point to Ukraine/Belorussia/South Poland. And given the territory size those people were definitely more numerous.
Nearly complete replacement could happen happen. One can see this in a region like Sicily, where the native IA population was strikingly different from mainland Italics (and the other migrants from Near East). This is, of course, different as the difference between Celts, Slavs and Germanics are not so pronounced.
You cant have proto-Slavic without I2a-CTS10228. I doubt this lineage will be found in Belarus. Maybe it will, but i'd bet west Ukraine, north Moldova, Bukovina, etc. Indeed, L621 is found in Bronze Age east Romania.
Maybe the Lion's share of G-W anestry is Belarus-IA like, but that isnt synonmymous with proto-Slavic expansion.
Donny
Western Ukrainians are genetically West Slavs. Belarusians and northeastern Poles are a mix of West Slavs and Iron Age Balts. In Poland there was no population exchange in the Middle Ages. In medieval Poland there was Slavicization of Balts. Therefore the Poland MA population has a range of genetic variation from Germans to Latvians. This is also visible in Speidel's models, where Poland MA is Slovakia IA plus Lithuania IA.
@ambron
Genetic structure of Slavic countries is much more complex and multidimensional than a simple division on West Slavs and East Slavs.
This image is self-explanatory.
https://i.imgur.com/JA25ttE.png
I am looking at this new Iranian Y DNA, the Achaemenids are all J2b. Hmmmmm.
Evaluating other possible source populations, we demonstrate through f4-statistics in the form of f4(CHG, Test, Samara_EBA_Yamnaya, Mbuti.DG) and qpAdm models, that the BA Steppe affinities is only apparent due to shared CHG-related ancestries, which were previously defined in the BA Steppe communities (represented in our dataset with Samara_EBA_Yamnaya, Supplementary tables S11,13). The AHG-type ancestry detected in ADMIXTURE persists into the historical period. Moreover, in some deep ancestry qpAdm models of the historical individuals, the AHG (Onge) component reaches detectable thresholds.
----
We demonstrated a strong Iranian Neolithic and CHG substrate in the historical-period samples from northern Iran, where these genetic components persisted in the pre- Medieval era. We confirmed the continuity from the Chalcolithic-Bronze Age into this period in northeastern Iran, despite this area hosting part of the Silk Road, which facilitated extensive human movement. Bronze Age Steppe ancestry remained relatively minor during the historical period in northern Iran. Instead, the historic period population of the northern Iranian Plateau exhibited strong genetic affinities with the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age communities of Turkmenistan, and northeastern-eastern Iran, forming homogeneous groups in our analyses as a part of the described east-west cline. As only one Iron Age genome is available from Turkmenistan, and there are none from the northeastern Iranian Plateau, further sampling is necessary to investigate the dynamics of this era, particularly to determine whether contacts between the two regions were sustained or disrupted after the Bronze Age.
No R1 and only insignificant Steppe ancestry among the earliest Iranians. Reminds me of the Greeks. Hmmmmmmm.
@Romul
Wezmeh has an additional small onge admix relative to ganjdareh?
If these "Achaemenids" are Mazandarani profile then they do have Steppe admixture but as usual the authors might have produced crappy models. I already see OITards wilding about this paper on X. Not sure how many years the data release is gonna take
Could we get coords for the Takarkori sample?
https://ufile.io/j2wh0t12
TKH:TKH001,-0.455292,0.076165,-0.006411,-0.023579,0.00954,-0.015618,-0.059458,0.034845,0.076492,-0.022597,-0.005034,0.002098,0.01888,-0.025873,0.033116,-0.025855,0.009909,-0.029138,-0.037709,0.006503,-0.013726,-0.046493,0.027361,-0.002651,0.00491
TKH:TKH001_tr.SG.TW,-0.458707,0.076165,-0.002263,-0.028101,0.01231,-0.017291,-0.057578,0.034152,0.07506,-0.017859,-0.001786,0.006145,0.021556,-0.027525,0.03203,-0.02201,0.012126,-0.032179,-0.041229,0.003502,-0.014724,-0.043526,0.026991,-0.005181,0.002754
TKH:TKH001_tr_all,-0.455292,0.078196,-0.003771,-0.026486,0.010463,-0.018965,-0.058518,0.032537,0.077719,-0.019864,-0.001786,0.003897,0.020664,-0.025598,0.033387,-0.023734,0.010561,-0.032559,-0.036452,0.007504,-0.0141,-0.045504,0.029703,-0.006868,0.010179
TKH:TKH001,-0.04,0.0075,-0.0017,-0.0073,0.0031,-0.0056,-0.0253,0.0151,0.0374,-0.0124,-0.0031,0.0014,0.0127,-0.0188,0.0244,-0.0195,0.0076,-0.023,-0.03,0.0052,-0.011,-0.0376,0.0222,-0.0022,0.0041
TKH:TKH001_tr.SG.TW,-0.0403,0.0075,-0.0006,-0.0087,0.004,-0.0062,-0.0245,0.0148,0.0367,-0.0098,-0.0011,0.0041,0.0145,-0.02,0.0236,-0.0166,0.0093,-0.0254,-0.0328,0.0028,-0.0118,-0.0352,0.0219,-0.0043,0.0023
TKH:TKH001_tr_all,-0.04,0.0077,-0.001,-0.0082,0.0034,-0.0068,-0.0249,0.0141,0.038,-0.0109,-0.0011,0.0026,0.0139,-0.0186,0.0246,-0.0179,0.0081,-0.0257,-0.029,0.006,-0.0113,-0.0368,0.0241,-0.0057,0.0085
this guy from GA under the nickname RCO has always claimed that his line J1-FGC6035 comes from Iran, and after a recent publication when, among others, J1-FGC6064 were found in Iran, he put forward a theory of how it penetrated Iran, and it is connected with the Alanian expansion
https://genarchivist.net/showthread.php?tid=1424&pid=45855#pid45855
that is, "how I got into Portugal" sorry
New paper released today, 80% CLV ancestry was received by Yamnaya people! Origin of Indo-Europeans could be from CLV.
https://hms.harvard.edu/news/ancient-dna-study-identifies-originators-indo-european-language-family
"Through this new study, scientists were able to prove that 80 percent of the Yamnaya population, who is credited with the spread of Indo-European languages and the genetic makeup of modern humanity, actually are descendants of the CLV population. Furthermore, ancient DNA suggests that 80 percent of Yamnaya ancestry can be connected back to this newly-described group."
https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/ancient-dna-unlocks-missing-link-in-the-origin-story-of-indo-european
@Mr Funk
RCO is an unironic communist and a clown
@Anon_BGP the oldest carbon dated sample was estimated to be ~295 BC. Several are dated with archaeological methods to be 355-280 BC but I this would assume a mean date of being born after the end of the Achaemenid Empire. There are no real Achaemenid samples in this study. What about the models do you consider crappy? I noticed in the supplementary material, they didn't use any Indo-Iranian population for distal qpAdm. No Sintashta, not even CWC. They do use Turkmenistan_IA and Uzbekistan_IA but only in the proximal qpAdm, and it has some successful fits but much less than single-population pre-IE Iran/Turan.
I just saw a post from Razib Khan on twitter claiming that the FST distance between Irish and Basques is higher (9) than it is between Irish and Sicilians (6). How can this be possible when Sicilians are Southeast Europeans with as much as 50% Near Eastern admixture, whilst Basques are West Europeans with many ancestry parallels to the Irish? On G25, Basques and Irish have a distance of 0.06-0.07, whilst Sicilians and Irish are double that at 0.12 - 0.13. Could someone explain this to me?
@Agelmund
Demographic factors and genetic drift can skew Fst distances, so that they can be unusually high even between closely related groups. On the other hand, genetic drift and inbreeding don't effect genetic ancestry proportions.
Basques have been relatively isolated since the Iron Age, and probably have a lower effective population size than the Irish and Sicilians, so their Fst distance to most populations is going to be skewed.
I wonder what kind of policy the new Trump administration has, to expose themselves and their past "sins", and also to isolate themselves from the rest of the world.
But Davidski wrote about this
I am amazed at his foresight
@iosif_lazaridis
CLV people crossed the Caucasus (in sites labeled in bold) via Armenia, north Mesopotamia, and eastern Anatolia before reaching Central Anatolia and becoming the ancestors of people with mostly Mesopotamian but ~10% CLV ancestry that may have spoken Anatolian languages. 6
https://x.com/iosif_lazaridis/status/1887184418076565689
The Takarkori is extremely interesting. Looks to be a three-way blend of Iberomaurusian, West African, and East African, with a basal *N mtdna. Could it be that most of what we call today Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan ancestry really is a product of the Green Sahara contraction during the Holocene?
“This Indo–European story has been mystery for 200 years, and now step by step, we are coming closer to the solution”
Millennia-old genomes suggest Indo–European tongues spread from the Caucasus mountain region
https://doi.org/10.1038/d41586-025-00382-y
Genetic and geographical origins of Eurasia’s influential Yamna culture
https://doi.org/10.1038/d41586-025-00089-0
I noticed the image from this article. The area shaded as the Pontic-Caspian steppe extends deep into the mountains of NEC at its southernmost point.
I think this was the southernmost pole for all steppe groups, both geographically and genetically.
https://media.nature.com/lw767/magazine-assets/d41586-025-00089-0/d41586-025-00089-0_50602192.png
@Mr Funk
All the research of these buffoons may be semplified by this sample:
I2529_enhanced I2529 YABA4 (Yabalkovo, burial 4E) petrous not used in whole-genome analysis - published in this paper because of thematic relevance but not included in whole genome population genetic analysis More data from an individual with genome-wide ancient DNA data first reported in MathiesonNature2018 powder/extract first reported in MathiesonNature2018 Direct: IntCal20 7610 36 5723-5571 calBCE (6750±40 BP, Poz-81117) .. Bulgaria_N Yabalkovo (province Haskovo, municipality Dimitrovgrad) Bulgaria 42,077 25,451 1240k,Twist1.4M 6 0 3,089770988 868886 M n/a (no relatives detected) .. .. 358,508 T1a I-M436 I2a1b [0.98,0.995] 0,214 0,399 [0.006,0.012] [0.009,0.014] ds.half,ds.half,ds.half,ds.half,ds.half,ds.half S2529.E1.L1,S2529.E1.L2,S2529.E1.L3,S2529.E1.L4,S2529.E2.L1,S7017.E1.L1 [adding Twist capture data to previously reported 1240k data on the same library] S2529.E1.L1,S2529.E1.L2,S2529.E1.L3,S2529.E1.L4,S2529.E2.L1,S7017.E1.L1 PASS ANGSD=[0.006,0.012], hapConX=[0.009,0.014]
what they found in Bulgaria was many thousands of years before westward: R11 ITA 11858 ybp and SRB 8070 ybp and so on...
@Gio
Got it, I hear you. I2 was present in the Epipaleolithic of Italy, and no one denies that.
@Mr Funk
"@Gio
Got it, I hear you. I2 was present in the Epipaleolithic of Italy, and no one denies that".
Not only I2-M223, but also R1b1 Villabruna 14000 years ago, and I think possibly also hg J. I never denied that the oldest so far is Satsurblia, Caucasus, 13000 Years ago and it from up there expanded, not from the Levant. Look at the paper what they found in Israel. I have nothing against you, in fact I wrote timeo Danaos Iudeosque et dona ferentes.
@Gio
Yes, and R1b was also found there, possibly J as well. But this J, if it was present, is not ancestral to Caucasian/Iranian/EHG lineages.
@ Funk
"@Gio
Yes, and R1b was also found there, possibly J as well. But this J, if it was present, is not ancestral to Caucasian/Iranian/EHG lineages".
I have been writing about these arguments from 2007,and then I examined only the STRs of the uniparental markers (both Y and mt SNPs) and I found many links between the Alps and the Caucasus, also at the linguistic level, infact I spoke about "Caucasian languages" of he Alps (Basque and Sardinian), and also about R-V1636 I spoke a lot (YCAII=18-23 in the Alps and YCAII=23-23 in the Caucasus). We have now many other data and above all the aDNA, but I think that old links between the Alps and the Caucasus do remain. No doubt that hg J expanded from the Caucasus, even though you wondered when I said that probably J2b expanded from central Europe or the Baltic (or anyway it is very old up there too, and in Sardinia too). We'll see next.
@Carlos
There’s nothing “new” (or accurate) in the Harvard (Lazarides) paper
(correcting earlier comment)
@WSH
All models are more or less joke. Initially they pass all samples as BMAC, but introduce HajjiFiruz_IA into it later. There is no specification for right pops. They've run Mazandaranis as best fit for 3/4 clusters, so I'm guessing the profile isn't any different from them. And interesting to see UZB_IA but I don't see it as being the sample they have found in paper? Is it from another study?
Is G25 broken? Why isn't Baltic_BA giving good distance as Fatyanovo/Core CWC + Baltic_Meso?
Not only that, it seems Baltic_BA can't model as simple Yamnaya + GAC + Baltic_Meso either under .03 distance
Target: Latvia_BA
Distance: 9.2567% / 0.09256679
49.0 Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
32.4 Lithuania_EMN_Narva
18.6 Poland_GlobularAmphora
@Anon_BGP
Is G25 broken?
Nope, you're just really dumb.
Baltic_BA can't be part Baltic_Meso because its extra hunter-gatherer ancestry has a very specific Balto-Slavic-related genetic drift, meaning that it came from somewhere else.
This has been known for many years and discussed many times on this blog.
>very specific Balto-Slavic-related genetic drift, meaning that it came from somewhere else.
Where? And it's a G25 thing, on qpAdm Baltic_Meso/Narva works fine. Nothing dumb
@Anon_BGP
Is it because of genetic drift
@Mr Funk
Yes I think the "BSD" is maybe just BS isolation drift acting up instead of some super secret ultra drifted HG pop hiding in Pripyat. Davidski made G25 especially for the whole BSD thing so there is some anchoring fault, he could've kept the drift absent like Kalash and Nakh Dagestani drift is absent but he decided to keep it I think.
@Anon_BGP
qpAdm doesn't pick up fine scale drift because it's based on f4 stats.
Obviously, the earliest Corded Ware people in the East Baltic weren't Baltic speakers. There was a total population replacement there when Balto-Slavic populations started moving there during the Bronze Age.
You can see this in the Y-DNA as well.
@Davidski - yes I know about the complete population replacement and Baltic Battle Axe not being B-S. Hopefully Middle Dnieper Culture is sampled and PBS is found (Fatyanovo + BSD?)
@Anon_BGP
Are you Gabru?
@ Davidski
''Obviously, the earliest Corded Ware people in the East Baltic weren't Baltic speakers. There was a total population replacement there when Balto-Slavic populations started moving there during the Bronze Age.
You can see this in the Y-DNA as well.''
And there is a big settlement gap. The Baltic LBA date from 1300 BC onward. Early Baltic CW either went extinct or just kept moving north toward Estonia and then Sweden
This obviously has implications for the reconstruction of Baltic -region languages as a whole, wrt various loanword frameworks
@ Anon-BGP
MDC might be a nothing burger, it looks quite Catacomb related. It's not the sort of 'launching pad' you'd expect for a significantly EEF-endowed group like Fatyanovo
@ WSH
''RCO is an unironic communist and a clown''
Is Mr Funk any different ? Don't let his superficial sicophancy or the fact that he enjoys bashing on his RCO cousin fool you, he harbours the same chauvanisms, for ex pretending that Yamnaya is a fusion of Siberians and Dagestanis.
@Rob
I exchanged thousands of letters with RCO when probably none of you was thinking to these arguments. He is of course a Brazilian nationalist of Portuguese origin. Nothing strange. A right proud for this little part of the Roman Empire who got out of the oldest original land more than the same Roman Empire. A little fastidious with Italians, who are the second ethnic group after the Portuguese's, and he was in my mail list until a few time ago.
In the beginning he was glad that his Y wasn't Jewish, as Jews pretended, and he willing accepted an Iranian of Alan origin. Nothing strange. Always a friend of mine Ricardo...
@Rob
About the pretension of Jews that "de Oliveira" was a Sephardic surname (perhaps sometime by a religious point of view, but never by a genetic one), I exchanged and have been exchanging hundreds and hundreds of letters with the owner of this project and also with this "de Oliveira" in fb J2 page. I know very well what I am speaking about.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/grassoconaplogruppo-j2/activity-feed
@ Gio- His views on PIE are rather odd, but I find him funny. Nothing against Him. Hence , let them with out sin cast the first stone
@Rob
I am not scandalized that someone thinks that the hg J had something to do with the expansion of the IE languages. This isn't my position, but actually we don't know nothing certain, even though I hypothesized that R1b in the Alps adopted the Caucasian Alpine languages and the IE was due above all to the hg R1a remained in eastern Europe. Of course I think that IE derived from the language of the HG of the Siberian corridor but formed westward the Uralic group, and now I suppose central Europe more than the same Yamnaya, and hg J2b was up there I think with others...
Interesting concept about baltic counterclockwise movement of CW who could include I1 relicts
New insights of cultural cannibalism amongst Magdalenian groups at Maszycka Cave, Poland
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-86093-w
now it's clear why such coordinates are strange for them
Not to bully them too much, but this is kind of depressing to see ending up in the supplement of a peer-reviewed paper:
"Subineage J2b2* (J-M241) shows up at low diversity in the Balkans during the Neolithic. Its origins remain uncertain"
In reference to I-L699 in Trypillians:
"Three of Trypillian specimens in our study carried derivatives of the I2a1b Y haplogroup. Both Trypillian individuals from Moldova carried the I2a1b1a2a2a lineage and one specimen from Verteba Cave in Ukraine carried the I2a1b1a2b lineage. I2a1b is part of the Y lineage diversity of the European Mesolithic and Neolithic, but it is not found in post-Neolithic samples from Europe, except for the Orkney Islands of Scotland 186. It is possible that the group became
part of the European Neolithic ancestry as some of the European Mesolithic hunter-gatherers became integrated into the ANF-derived EEF communities"
"The Q1a2 lineage identified in an individual from Giurgiuleşti is rare among European Y chromosomal lineages. Its origins in Europe have been connected to Hunnic expansions"
"Another Usatove male from Mayaky carried the R1a lineage, has a widespread Eurasian distribution, but its initial diversification is thought to have started in Iran"
@ Gio
''I am not scandalized that someone thinks that the hg J had something to do with the expansion of the IE languages. ''
Y-hg J derived lineages represent a various strata of CHG-Iran admixture into the steppe.
But as for expanding IE lanugages, they didnt play much of a role. Well some J2b2 became indo-Europeanised in the Balkans via the Greco-Illyrian founding R1b-PF7562. That's about it.
@ Anon-BGP
''can you try running Krivyansky as Aruchlo_LN_2/Caucasus_Eneolithic + Ekaterinovka + GK_Meso/Ukraine_N?''
Which one, the Eneolithic 4300 BC one ?
Here are some visualizations of Fst between key steppe populations involved in PIA/PIE origins and diverse present-day West Eurasians genotyped on the Human Origins array.
First, the BPgroup (the Lower Volga end of the CLV cline).
https://x.com/iosif_lazaridis/status/1888745571969589635
This sample has low coverage. You have cannibalism in many cultures, in Unetice and Knowiz as well.
Late Glacial hunters in highlands: Evidence from Boga-Orun rockshelter, a new Epipalaeolithic site in the north-central Caucasus, Russia
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352409X25000410?via%3Dihub
Patrilineal family is associated with patriarchy but is not the same thing as patriarchy. That the durotigues had matrilineal families does not mean they were not patriarchal nor does it mean that other tribes of Britons had the same practices as them.
i1 were patrilocal - see NBA. Most r1b IA britons were patrilocal too
I think it is from WHG in NW Europe and survived in a rare TBK context. Won't accept the finnish theory until they find a single i1 in continental corded ware or EHG
@MikeO
Not much point discussing these things yet. My time is better spend actually working on the test.
Allow me this David, pleaseeeeeeeee
This is a message to the genarchvisit rednecks who pretend there are L51 and L151 in Yamnaya and who I know are keeping an eye on this blog. Ha Ha Ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha aha ahaha hahhaha hhahahhahhahaha .
I was right and the CWC has nothing to do with the steppes, get it you knuckleheads?
Sorry you have been wrong from the start, you are Trump apprentices thinking Americans are an empire. Another hahahahahhahhahhahahahahahhhahahahah
I thought that since the Americans want Greenland, and the Mexicans and the Danish are idiots, we, the Spaniards, are going to reclaim Florida, Louisiana, Tejas, Arizona, New Mexico, Oregon, Northern California, Nevada, Utah and all those territories that belonged to the Spanish Empire, including Napoli, Sicilia, Lombardia, French county, Belgium, the Netherlands, etc. etetetetc
Ok Australia is not ours, although the Torres Strait is also ours.
@Gaska
You are right, but after having got all those territories you have to give all to the Roman Empire and also your Spanish Language and the Basque one to Sardinia and the Alpine Refugium. Ahahahah
I think we Italians are better than Trumpius because no one has been thinking that, and in our Bible, the Aeneis of Vergilius, is said "anticam exquirite matrem" and the Promised Land is in the past and not in the future.
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