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Tuesday, January 14, 2020

Hungarian Conquerors were rich in Y-haplogroup N (Fóthi et al. 2020)


Open access at Archaeological and Anthropological Sciences at this LINK. Below is the paper abstract. Emphasis is mine:

According to historical sources, ancient Hungarians were made up of seven allied tribes and the fragmented tribes that split off from the Khazars, and they arrived from the Eastern European steppes to conquer the Carpathian Basin at the end of the ninth century AD. Differentiating between the tribes is not possible based on archaeology or history, because the Hungarian Conqueror artifacts show uniformity in attire, weaponry, and warcraft. We used Y-STR and SNP analyses on male Hungarian Conqueror remains to determine the genetic source, composition of tribes, and kin of ancient Hungarians. The 19 male individuals paternally belong to 16 independent haplotypes and 7 haplogroups (C2, G2a, I2, J1, N3a, R1a, and R1b). The presence of the N3a haplogroup is interesting because it rarely appears among modern Hungarians (unlike in other Finno-Ugric-speaking peoples) but was found in 37.5% of the Hungarian Conquerors. This suggests that a part of the ancient Hungarians was of Ugric descent and that a significant portion spoke Hungarian. We compared our results with public databases and discovered that the Hungarian Conquerors originated from three distant territories of the Eurasian steppes, where different ethnicities joined them: Lake Baikal-Altai Mountains (Huns/Turkic peoples), Western Siberia-Southern Urals (Finno-Ugric peoples), and the Black Sea-Northern Caucasus (Caucasian and Eastern European peoples). As such, the ancient Hungarians conquered their homeland as an alliance of tribes, and they were the genetic relatives of Asiatic Huns, Finno-Ugric peoples, Caucasian peoples, and Slavs from the Eastern European steppes.


Fóthi, E., Gonzalez, A., Fehér, T. et al., Genetic analysis of male Hungarian Conquerors: European and Asian paternal lineages of the conquering Hungarian tribes, Archaeol Anthropol Sci (2020) 12: 31. https://doi.org/10.1007/s12520-019-00996-0

See also...

On the association between Uralic expansions and Y-haplogroup N

More on the association between Uralic expansions and Y-haplogroup N

Big deal of 2019: ancient DNA confirms the link between Y-haplogroup N and Uralic expansions

125 comments:

Davidski said...

Finally, 2020 begins at Eurogenes!

Will this be the biggest year to date? I think so.

Arza said...

I know so.

It will be devastating to many archaeologists and historians.

Richard Rocca said...

FYI, one of the authors, Tibor Feher is one of the R-U152 project admins.

Archi said...

My tribe predictions

7 N-TAT : Magyars
2 R1a-Z93, C2 : Turks (Kumans, Bulgarians?)
1 R1b- Z2106 : Turks - Bashkirians
4 G2a : Khazars - Kavarians
3 I2-L621 : Central Europeans - Germanic (Gepidian) or Slavic (KE are placed just on border of Slovakia).

Only two of the seven tribes were Magyaric, the rest were Turkic: Kuman and Kavar.

rozenfag said...

It's confusing, there are already several papers with similar titles about Hungarian conquerors, weirdly none of them has proper analysis of genome-wide data.

TLT said...

G2a: Revenge of the farmers?

Ryan said...

C2 seems more Mongol than Turkic. I'd put Q for Turks.

rozenfag said...

@Ryan C2 has many different branches that separated tens of thousands years ago. Some of them are specific to Mongolic people, some(like https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-F1756/) to Turkic.

Vladimir said...

There is an extremely short supply of samples from Russia, from the supposed places where migration began. But it is already clear that the Avars are N-L1026 Y6058 Y16323. Magyars are N-L1026 Z1936 Y13850. And the I2S could have been local leaders who switched sides, which was the order of the day.

Huck Finn said...

Those two N3a2 individuals may very well have been Huns, not N3a4 Magyars.

Vladimir said...

And G2a is probably IAZYGES, bordering on Roman Pannonia and Dacia.

V. I. Illich-Svitych : "Adzigi, this is the exact self-name of the Adyghe tribes, the yazygi of ancient authors were an Adyghe tribe that broke away from the compact Adyghe massif in the Kuban and was involved in the Sarmatian migration»


Johan Thunmann : "these Circassians call themselves Adige. The Greeks and Italians call them cichs, the Russians call them yases. They were also known under the name AC. Even now, the inhabitants of Taman and other Islands are known to the Russians as YASA..."


One of the founders of the North Iranian ethnic attribution of the Scythians and Sarmatians, M. I. Rostovtsev, considered the yazigs not a Sarmatian, but a Meotian-adygian tribe.

Aram said...

Those G2 were already found in Saltovo Mayaki culture in Damgaard et al. It could mean that early Magyars were present in SM culture.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltovo-Mayaki

The J1 is also from a Caucasian branch

Archi said...

@Aram @Vladimir

I remind you once again that the Khazars Qavars were the largest documented tribe of conquerors. The main composition of the Horde was the Türks: Onogurs (> Ungare), Kumans, Qavars.
Yazyges (Sarmates) were there until the 5th century AD between the Tisza and the Danube that had nothing to do with the Caucasus, but they completely disappeared in 5 century AD and it was unrealistic for them to assume G2. This is 10 century AD.

Suevi said...

Archaeological skeletal remains represent valuable source of information in context of determining haplogroups. Y STR ancient DNA (aDNA) analysis is often used for identification, disputable male kinship testing and monitoring migration patterns. The most common Y haplogroup among recent males in Bosnia and Herzegovina is I haplogroup (50%) with I-P3 subhaplogroup. Main goals of this study were successful isolation of aDNA from skeletal remains found at two archaeological sites (Divičani and Kopošići) and prediction of Y haplogroups for obtained Y STR haplotypes. DNA was isolated from teeth and bones samples using an optimized phenol/chloroform DNA extraction procedure, preceding decalcification with EDTA. Quantification of samples was performed with a Quantifiler Duo quantification kit for determining the exact concentration of DNA and potential presence of the inhibitors. PowerPlex® Y23 System was used for amplification of 23 Y STR loci and analysis was performed on ABI PRISM 310 Genetic Analyzer. Analysis of the generated haplotypes and prediction of the haplogroups was done using YHRD database, Y-DNA Haplogroup Predictor – NEVGEN and Athey: Haplogroup predictor – HAPEST. Partial DNA profiles were obtained for all samples. Comparison of given Y DNA profiles concluded that four persons were in a kinship relations by a paternal line. Subsequent analysis showed that all samples from Kopošići and Divičani sites belong to haplogroup I2a and subhaplogroup I2a1b3 except one case from Kopošići which belongs to haplogroup R1a. Prediction results from both online software’s used in this study were in concordance, however predictor NEVGEN calculates subgroups of haplogroup I2a. These preliminary results indicate that genetic structure of male population in medieval B&H is similar to the recent one. Our results also showed that both of these software’s can be used for predicting haplogroups, however HAPEST is the recommended one.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/336313137_PREDICTION_OF_Y_HAPLOGROUP_IN_ANALYSIS_OF_HUMAN_SKELETAL_REMAINS_FROM_ARCHAEOLOGICAL_SITES_IN_BOSNIA_AND_HERZEGOVINA

Sofia Aurora said...

A new month, a new year and a new decade!!!

I wish for everybody all the best. Not only in the Indoeuropean studies but also in physical and genetic anthropology and paleoanthropology!

Sofia Aurora said...

There is also a similar article in biorxiv folks:


https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2019.12.15.876912v1

Andrzejewski said...

@Archi “4 G2a : Khazars - Kavarians”

Does that explain why 5% of Ashkenazi Jews have G2a?

Slumbery said...

In this late context it is meaningless to talk about revenge of the farmers. Can't check here from my phone, but I remember G2a among Alans. That could be more relevant. Plus as late as 900 AD there is no reason why any population on the steppe would not have at least some.

Archi said...


There were no Alans in this Horde, there were Qavars (Kabars). The Alans at that time were subjects of the Khazars, the Qavars were a Khazar tribe who rebelled against the Khazars. How the Qavars and Alans correlate is unknown.

Archi said...


It is possible that the ethnonym of Kabara and the North Caucasian toponym of Kabarda, which became the name of the Adygs recently, are related.

AWood said...

@Suevi

That's medieval DNA, but they call it "ancient". Whatever floats their boat I guess. I2-L621 could be ancient in the Balkans but the *real* ancient DNA doesn't support it, and the rapid expansion comes from branches which are too young. The most logical answer in my view is that I2-L621 were hunter-gatherers absorbed by eastern Corded Ware around the Belarus area and spread SW with Slavic speakers.

@Archi

Fat chance that I2-L621 is from Germany, like very fat, obese like chance.

Vladimir said...

My opinion. I2-L621 is the Adriatic (Illyrian Veneti), a very small part of which did not remain in Rome-occupied Venice and went along the amber road to the Vistula where it met the Balto-Slavs of the Polish culture Kultura grobów (pod)kloszowych and mixed with its carriers gave birth to the Slavs themselves. Hence the German name of the Slavs - wends. Apparently Russian Nestor, when writing his work on the history of the Slavs, retold the Veneti legend about their Exodus from Norik under the influence of the Romans. But by 1200 ad, it seems that these ethnic groups were so mixed that the Veneti legend was perceived as Slavic. The Russian archaeologist Sedov wrote that the Polish Kultura grobów (pod)kloszowych assimilated a tribe of Celts, but apparently it was not the Celts, but the Adriatic Veneti, who at that time passed the bottleneck and expanded in Eastern Europe along with the Slavs. According to academician Sedov, it is with Kultura grobów (pod)kloszowych that it is possible to identify elements of continuity in development up to the authentic Slavic antiquities of the second half of the first Millennium ad.

Reto said...

The G2a from this paper would be G2a1-FGC7535 (same as that Avar leader PSZ/1 -  https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53105-5), which nowadays peaks in Ossetia and Georgia, and G2a2b2a1a1a1b-L1266 - under G-U1 -, which nowadays peaks in Circassia.

@Andrzejewski
Afaik almost all G-M201 Ashkenazi belong to G2b1-M377. 

Vladimir said...

«The G2a from this paper would be G2a1-FGC7535 (same as that Avar leader PSZ/1 - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53105-5)». This confirms my hypothesis that G2a is IAZYGES, Not Turks or Khazars.

Archi said...

@Vladimir
«The G2a from this paper would be G2a1-FGC7535 (same as that Avar leader PSZ/1 - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53105-5)». This confirms my hypothesis that G2a is IAZYGES, Not Turks or Khazars.

It hypothesis absolutely does not confirm your hypothesis, more than nothing.

Samuel Andrews said...

Btw, about Y chromsomes. G2a lose popularity before R1a/R1b IE arrived. At least in Western & Central Europe, by the late Neolithic most farmers had yhg I2a. Then shortly afterwards R1a/R1b arrived.

Andrzejewski said...

@Samuel Andrews “Btw, about Y chromsomes. G2a lose popularity before R1a/R1b IE arrived. At least in Western & Central Europe, by the late Neolithic most farmers had yhg I2a. Then shortly afterwards R1a/R1b arrived.”

The resurgence of the WHG at the expense of the EEF?

Rob said...

I2a1b could be Carpian
The interesting thing is that these “Magyar converts” was that, at least in the other study from Koros site; had the most elaborate chiefly burial
It was ‘eastern’ Y4460; cf S17250 more common in Serbs, Croats, Romanians

Ariel said...

David

How do you feel about all the people appropriating your work?

Skordo said...

What century in medieval Europe was this study in B&H?

EastPole said...

@Arza

“I know so.

It will be devastating to many archaeologists and historians.”

I am not so sure. Archeology and genetics will lead to a lot of empty talking and Kossinism.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EOVb1QaU8AAM2D8.jpg:large

https://twitter.com/AlMittnik

What we need is to correlate genes with languages and religions not only with pots to get some ethnic history explained, but westerners like Matt or Samuel are not ready for it yet.
The reason why there are so many similarities between Indian and Greek religions and philosophies is not because Indian philosophers and religious leaders traveled to Greece or Greek to India.

https://www.brownpundits.com/2020/01/10/social-justice-as-white-self-regard-and-self-obsession/

Indian scholars and Western Scholars are both wrong.
Similarities came from the same source from which came similarities in religious terminology between Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic languages and it is now best explained by Narasimhan et al 2019 paper:

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/365/6457/eaat7487

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/365/6457/eaat7487/F1.large.jpg

Davidski said...

@Ariel

How do you feel about all the people appropriating your work?

Are you referring to any specific examples?

Onur Dincer said...

@rozenfag

It's confusing, there are already several papers with similar titles about Hungarian conquerors, weirdly none of them has proper analysis of genome-wide data.

Yet there are no ancient DNA papers about Turkic conquerors of Anatolia or elsewhere despite a far more extensive proportion of the world being conquered by Turkic groups and the existence of many more Turkic migrations in world history. The existent papers involving Turkic ancient DNA never focus on the conquering period of a given Turkic group for a given region except the ones included in the Hungarian ancient DNA papers. Hungarian geneticists are way ahead in exploring through ancient DNA studies how their territory acquired its current dominant language, and it is the geneticists of the countries who do not do that or do it much less sufficiently who should be ashamed, not Hungarian geneticists. Though I agree with you that Hungarian geneticists should focus more on autosomal DNA in those studies, which, I guess, they will soon do from the indications in the current studies.

Critias said...

Because R1a is the revenge of the Scyths ?

Matt said...

@EastPole, in 2020, I'm going to absolutely try to avoid getting into any more discussions with you about your neopagan philosophical pseudo-history thing, as long as it doesn't distort the actual genetics. It doesn't seem like it will get any traction in academia and that there is really any value to discussing it with you.

Suevi said...

Warriors buried in these elite burials belonged to 2x R1a-L1029 and 2x R1b-U106.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnaukawpolsce.pap.pl%2Faktualnosci%2Fnews%252C80305%252Cnaukowcy-czterej-wojownicy-pochowani-w-xi-w-w-grobowcach-na-pomorzu

Suevi said...

Just a reminder, a Polish-like "Viking" (VK139) with R1a-L1029 buried in Funen, Denmark.

https://i.imgur.com/rKHUhKJ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zNDYMnW.jpg

Aram said...

Archi

I don't care much who documented what. Even today the media don't tells the whole story yet alone in past.
I am seeing typical Caucasian haplotypes in this horde. And judging by the data we have they entered steppe after Huns but before Avares/Hungarians. Did they became Turk? Maybe yes maybe not. But it is not important ( and in reality unverifiable without autosomes ) what is important that this haplotypes in most likeliehood were introduced there by Alanes.
And maybe some other Caucasian tribes.

Aram said...

Well we have a medieval Kipchak who had a G2-U1. So it seems some were Turkicised. But the G2a1 from Saltovo was autosomally very Caucasian. Thus impossible to be a Turk. For that Avare having G2a1 . I don't know his autosomes.

EastPole said...

@Matt
“@EastPole, in 2020, I'm going to absolutely try to avoid getting into any more discussions with you about your neopagan philosophical pseudo-history thing, as long as it doesn't distort the actual genetics. It doesn't seem like it will get any traction in academia and that there is really any value to discussing it with you.”

It is OK, I respect your choice and will try not to say more about what I suspect really could have happened.
But notice however that all major theories are pseudo-history thing now, cannot be proven or disproven. Short review:

1. Indo-Uralic Eastern Europe. On the steppe north of Caucasus R1b Indo-Hittite emerges. Indo-Hittites move west and south to Anatolia and to Central Eastern Europe where they indo-Europeize some R1a Indo-Uralic Sredny Stog II tribes from which North Western Indo-European and Indo-Slavonic languages and Corded Ware culture emerged.
2. Indo-Uralic Eastern Europe. On the steppe north of Caucasus R1b Indo-Hittite emerge. Indo-Hittites move west and south to Anatolia and to Western Europe where R1b North Western Indo-European language emerges in Bell Beaker culture which moves east and indo-Europeizes R1a Indo-Uralic Corded Ware culture from which Balto-Slavic emerges.
3. My theory which I am not going to explain as promised.

Theories 1. and 2. are pseudo-scientific because one cannot prove or disprove them as there is no evidence in genetics, linguistics and religion. Assuming however that very advanced religion originated among primitive pastoralist cultures north of Caucasus and then degenerated as it spread to India, Greece and Eastern-Central Europe does not look very convincing to me. I think it is more likely that its origin took place at the interaction of R1a Sredny Stog II pastoralists and advanced Neolithic Cultures of Central-Eastern Europe like Tripolye culture. There is plenty of evidence for it but I am not going to explain it as promised.
Anyway, good luck, after 200 years of searching for PIE homeland I hope you will find one in next 200 years. Probably your people will be more interested in the history of Islam than PIE by that time, so it is not so important.

Archi said...

@Arame

What does the steppe have to do with it? G2a is it not only Alans what you are all obsessed with Alans? The Alans probably had very little G2a in the steppe, it is a lot of modern Ossetians in the mountain, but they have a very mediated attitude to the steppe Alans, learn them a story. The myth that Alans is G2a is just a myth. There is nothing to look for keys under the lamp. I trust the docs, and not some myth that since G2a means Alans, it’s not known where it came from. Khazaria is just the North Caucasus, which means G2a. The Hungarians and Greeks in Europe also knew Alans very well, since they are not mentioned by any documents, it means they not happened - this is a fact, but they are called Khazars (North Caucasus included), it means Khazars were - I trust the documents.

Archi said...

@EastPole

Very funny, you came up with two of your personal pseudoscientific theories of R1b and you dispute them yourself. Yes, these are your personal pseudo-scientific theories that are erroneous and have never been expressed by anyone other than you personally. And the third your one expresses by Tripolye, also pseudo-scientific.

A great way, at first to make deliberately erroneous assumptions by passing it off as the opinion of opponents, and then joyfully challenge them.


EastPole said...

@Archi
Could you please present your theory, and show that is not pseudo-scientific.

Leron said...

Too much emphasis is put on “elite dominance” over the common population and discarding them as non-contributing. 95% of Europeans wouldn’t be classified as Indo-Europeans going by this logic since their direct ancestors were not the original IE speaking tribe. Once the former elite die off there’s always new blood that takes then mantle.

Andrzejewski said...

@Leron “95% of Europeans wouldn’t be classified as Indo-Europeans going by this logic since their direct ancestors were not the original IE speaking tribe.”

??????

Every European has at least 35% - 45% Indo-European in them, and the rate is even higher for Eastern and Northern Europeans. Even our Basque colleague here (Gaska) is descendant of Bell Beakers

Andrzejewski said...

@EastPole “Could you please present your theory, and show that is not pseudo-scientific.”

I’d rather you post *yours* instead of worrying of what other people might think of it. To me the abstract thereof (Steppe + CT interaction) sounds very intriguing

Ryan said...

@Andrzejewski - I wouldn't assume that Bell Beakers were Indo-European or monolingual for that matter. That's very much an open question. (Their high steppe ancestry is not).

dsjm1 said...

As you say 2020 looks like a watershed year. For my group it will be expecting reliable finds and evidence on the progression of L51 - and L151 and thus the big family (P312, U106, S1194 & A8053).

My research (bolstered greatly by your blogging and PCA data) - paints a picture of L51 emerging near Z2103 between Kazan and Samara. With Z2103 forming the core of later Yamnaya and heading from Samara to many places incl Carpathian Basin. And L51 likely being found in Volosovo - Fatyanovo - Cordedware - etc:. Our educated guess is they mostly used the Volga as their pathway west then onto the East and South Baltic coasts. We think the big family emerged around the Sth Baltic with P312 heading across to Netherlands and also down to Bohemia . U106 expanding out from the base of Jutland into Jutland Frisia Denmark and Sweden (maybe starting in East Baltic) and S1194 / A8053 being around the Sth Baltic or some Scandinavian Islands.

So will any of this pan out ? - Only time will tell.

Archi said...

@dsjm1 "And L51 likely being found in Volosovo - Fatyanovo - Cordedware"

Volosovo and Fatyanovo/Cordedware have nothing to do with each other, so it's impossible to there and there. Volosovo is not related to Fatyanovo at all.

Andrzejewski said...

@Archi “Volosovo and Fatyanovo/Cordedware have nothing to do with each other, so it's impossible to there and there. Volosovo is not related to Fatyanovo at all.“

Exactly! Volosovo is the pre-IE pre-Uralic substrate which was eliminated by Poltava or Sintashta

Archi said...

@Andrzejewski "Volosovo is the pre-IE pre-Uralic substrate which was eliminated by Poltava or Sintashta"

Volosovo disappeared before Fatyanovo. The rest of the cultures have nothing to do with it. It did not live in the territory of the cultures you named.

Davidski said...

@All

Lots of off topic crap removed.

If anyone starts yapping again about Indo-Europeans and skin color you're banned.

Gaska said...

A friend has told me, that they are looking carefully at KH150190 from Niedertiefenbach (Late Neolithic)because he has several calls on R1b1a/2- Maybe that's why they haven't published the supplementary information yet-Let's see what decision they make regarding the investigation Someone could suffer a stroke

SNPs-CTS11468/FGC49

Richard Rocca said...

KH150190 belongs to haplogroup I2a2a1a as per ArmandoR1b:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19258-The-Wartberg-culture-paper-(Immel-et-al-2019)-Y-chromosomes&p=638741&viewfull=1#post638741

Gaska said...

Really? I don't know who Armando r1b is, but if he works for anthrogenica I suppose he will do everything possible to prove that the sample is not R1b- In any case, if you have not done so yet, you should ask Immel why they have not published the supplementary information-Let's see what the Germans say because maybe you get a surprise- Being a Kurganist is becoming a risk profession, you already have ATp3, Vk531, Brunn1, and now Niedertiefenbach-We are closer than you would like

There are other doubtful samples on that paper and and my friend says that not all are I

Rob said...

I2a2/I2a2a1a quite prevalent in British Neolithic

Hodo Scariti said...

@ Gaska

I checked on Yfull the SNPs Romilius (not an expert, as he states) found through analyis of the BAM file... the R1b1a2 SNPs are deprecated because not valuable/effective: they appears in no less than 30 other different haplogroups. Also note that he uses the oldest version of the BAM Analysis kit.
That sample is I2a for sure, as he has got many calls on I level and only garbage SNPs on R1b1a2 level.

Hodo Scariti said...

@ Gaska

That's really interesting your biased way to quote what other people wrote: I read on Anthrogenica the post about the R1b1a2 calls for that sample. Romilius himself said it has some calls... not "several" as you say. And the post with all the haplogroups as per ISOGG records very few calls about R1b.

Gaska said...

@Lars

Romilius is the person who is analyzing those Bam Files in anthrogenica? How funny, yeah he is a great expert. You should reread what Immel published about Niedertiefenbach and you will understand what I am saying. There are many doubts regarding two or three samples and we have to wait to see what Immel and his colleagues think. And I repeat not all are I2-I do not believe that European scholars agree to leave the future of European genetic research in the hands of supposed anthrogenica experts-



Andrzejewski said...

I can’t wrap my head around the fact that Ugric people were only 3/8 of the composition yet they managed to impose their language on not only their fellow conquerors but also on their ruled upon conquered population of Slavs and Avars.

It is even more perplexing in light of the fact that they found cemeteries with the Star of David on the tombs, most likely belonging to refugees from the Khazars empire (Kavars, etc) - which were Turkic and not Ugric, and especially the fact that the first “Magyar” kings of Hungary bore Turkic names - from Arpad to “Kalman” in the 1200s.

Rob said...

@ Andrze

''I can’t wrap my head around the fact that Ugric people were only 3/8 of the composition yet they managed to impose their language on not only their fellow conquerors but also on their ruled upon conquered population of Slavs and Avars.''

Many of the 'European' lineages were themselves elite. So im not sure exactly what happened; but it seems that proto-Hungarians were not exclusively N1c; but fom the outset had R1b, R1a, i2, etc. Why the confederacy chose Uralic, as opposed to a different language, requires sociolinguistic thoughts, not just genetic percentages

Onur Dincer said...

@Rob

Many of the 'European' lineages were themselves elite. So im not sure exactly what happened; but it seems that proto-Hungarians were not exclusively N1c; but fom the outset had R1b, R1a, i2, etc. Why the confederacy chose Uralic, as opposed to a different language, requires sociolinguistic thoughts, not just genetic percentages

Today Hungarians have R1a-Z93 less than 1% and N and C2 well below 1%. So unless there was a selection against people with those haplogroups (which is extremely unlikely), the only explanation is that either the Hungarian conquerors never made a big genetic impact in what is now Hungary or they or their descendants were almost totally wiped out or replaced sometime after the conquest (not necessarily soon after). Both scenarios require a very high level of elite dominance (assimilation of the locals by the ruling elite) one way or another.

Andrzejewski said...

@Onur Dincer “Today Hungarians have R1a-Z93 less than 1% and N and C2 well below 1%. So unless there was a selection against people with those haplogroups (which is extremely unlikely), the only explanation is that either the Hungarian conquerors never made a big genetic impact in what is now Hungary or they or their descendants were almost totally wiped out or replaced sometime after the conquest (not necessarily soon after). Both scenarios require a very high level of elite dominance (assimilation of the locals by the ruling elite) one way or another.”

Hungarians bled out on the battlefield against the invading Ottoman Turks in 1563 but I don’t think that’s the reason. Maybe it has more to do with the Kumans and Pechenegs in the 1300 with their R1a ydna?

Also, being part of the Austro-Hungarian empire under Kaiser Franz Josef didn’t help N1c people

Rob said...

@ Onur

You and Andrze are in fact talking about 2 different phenomena

Andrze was stating that only ''3/8 Uralic'' [presumably referring to N1c lineages]. So my reply to remind him tat all the other lineages of the proto-Hungarians (G2 j, R1ab-u106, R1a-Z93, I2a1b) were also found in elite contexts, and were thus not merely subordinates.

What youre referring to is the subsequent political & demographic history of the Medieval State of Hungary
The very high rate of elite conquest, until presented with data, seems to be your speculation

Davidski said...

Hungary was almost totally depopulated during Tatar raids, and it's likely that the most decimated classes were the elites and warriors, because they had to fight the Tatars first.

That's probably why there's so little early Hungarian ancestry in Hungarians today.

Once some stability returned to the Carpathian Basin, it was largely repopulated by Germans and Slavs from nearby regions, like Bavaria and Slovakia.

Onur Dincer said...

@Andrzejewski

Hungarians bled out on the battlefield against the invading Ottoman Turks in 1563 but I don’t think that’s the reason. Maybe it has more to do with the Kumans and Pechenegs in the 1300 with their R1a ydna?

If anything, Kumans and Pechenegs should increase the East Eurasian haplogroups and R1a-Z93, not diminish them. But if they or Ottomans did a massacre in Hungary, then it is possible that the emptied lands were filled by the Slavic and German neighbors, which again would entail a very high level of elite dominance for their switch to the Hungarian language.

Also, being part of the Austro-Hungarian empire under Kaiser Franz Josef didn’t help N1c people

But did Austrians make a massacre in Hungary? I know of no such event. If you know, please point me to that.

Anyway, one way or another, a very high level of elite dominance is inevitable to explain the current situation in Hungary.

Andrzejewski said...

@Rob “Many of the 'European' lineages were themselves elite.“

Well, the lingua francs of the Panonian Avar empire was Slavic. So I don’t know what prestige being a Magyar carried, and don’t forget that they were Pagan so being frowned upon the Christian conquered population.

Bear in mind that the Germanic Franks were a strong ruling minority but today’s French outside of Alsace Lorraine speak Romance French and not German. And a much more relevant example to the Hungarian discussion- in Bulgaria Khan Krum ruled over a majority Slavic population; Bulgars were maybe 1% of the population whereas the native Thracians or whatever were largely annihilated by the Justinian Plague by 536. So Slavic filled the void. Lo and behold- by the time king Boris converted to Christianity, there was nothing left of the ruling Bulgars in Bulgarian society, not even one word in the language.

Rob said...

@ Onur

''Anyway, one way or another, a very high level of elite dominance is inevitable to explain the current situation in Hungary.''

In fact, as per Davidski, it was a kinda 'conquest' by common folk (with their subsequent assimilation into Hungarian due to its position prestige lect within the political borders of the country)

@ Andrze

Maybe proto-Hungarians were just good warriors, who attracted people to their ranks, but were based on a meritocracy system

Andrzejewski said...

@Onur “If anything, Kumans and Pechenegs should increase the East Eurasian haplogroups and R1a-Z93, not diminish them. But if they or Ottomans did a massacre in Hungary, then it is possible that the emptied lands were filled by the Slavic and German neighbors, which again would entail a very high level of elite dominance for their switch to the Hungarian language. ”

Yes, R1a not N1c. I said that their invasion increased R1a not diminished it. What it diminished was N1c. This is why I don’t know why Ugric became the language of today’s Hungary.

Regarding Austrian, Hungarian language almost died out by the dominance of German, and there was an extensive intermixing with Slavs and German-Austrians.

Andrzejewski said...

@Rob “Maybe proto-Hungarians were just good warriors, who attracted people to their ranks, but were based on a meritocracy system”

Idk about that: the Turkic names of Magyar kings from Arpad on suggests that it may have been the Kavars and other refugee breakaways from the Khazar kingdom who had the upper hand.

Andrzejewski said...

It was also speculated that only 20% of current Hungarian vocabulary stems from Uralic sources: about 10% is Turkic, close to 40% is Indo-European and the rest 30% is unidentified. It was further claimed by some linguists, both Hungarians and non-Hungarian that that 30% is Yenisseyan in origin and came with either the Q1a Huns, Xiungnu or Avars.

Onur Dincer said...

@Rob

You and Andrze are in fact talking about 2 different phenomena

Andrze was stating that only ''3/8 Uralic'' [presumably referring to N1c lineages]. So my reply to remind him tat all the other lineages of the proto-Hungarians (G2 j, R1ab-u106, R1a-Z93, I2a1b) were also found in elite contexts, and were thus not merely subordinates.

What youre referring to is the subsequent political & demographic history of the Medieval State of Hungary
The very high rate of elite conquest, until presented with data, seems to be your speculation

In fact, as per Davidski, it was a kinda 'conquest' by common folk (with their subsequent assimilation into Hungarian due to its position prestige lect within the political borders of the country)


I actually do not make a choice between the scenario of a demographic migration of the Hungarian conquerors and the scenario of a small elite conquest by them, will wait for more ancient DNA results from Hungary to make a choice. But my point about the the inevitability of the quite high level of the elite dominance in Hungary stands. If it happened the way Davidski surmised, it can better explain its very high level as during the post-Mongol era the Kingdom of Hungary had reached a level of sophistication high enough to assimilate large masses.

Onur Dincer said...

@Andrzejewski

Yes, R1a not N1c. I said that their invasion increased R1a not diminished it. What it diminished was N1c. This is why I don’t know why Ugric became the language of today’s Hungary.

But those Turkic groups were high in R1a-Z93, specifically in its Z2124 branch as found in the Hungarian conquerors. But modern Hungarians have less than 1% R1a-Z93, their R1a is almost totally Slavic R1a-Z283.

Regarding Austrian, Hungarian language almost died out by the dominance of German, and there was an extensive intermixing with Slavs and German-Austrians.

Interesting. Can you point me to some articles about that? No problem if you do not have one at hand, I can research it myself.

Onur Dincer said...

@Rob

Nothing you have stated stands, because it has no legs, no facts.

Then how come modern Hungarians speak Hungarian with very little genetic connection to the Hungarian conquerors?

Onur Dincer said...

@Andrzejewski

It was also speculated that only 20% of current Hungarian vocabulary stems from Uralic sources: about 10% is Turkic, close to 40% is Indo-European and the rest 30% is unidentified. It was further claimed by some linguists, both Hungarians and non-Hungarian that that 30% is Yenisseyan in origin and came with either the Q1a Huns, Xiungnu or Avars.

The previous ancient DNA studies had found some Q too among the Hungarian conquerors.

Onur Dincer said...

@Andrzejewski

Idk about that: the Turkic names of Magyar kings from Arpad on suggests that it may have been the Kavars and other refugee breakaways from the Khazar kingdom who had the upper hand.

Turkic groups were surely among the Hungarian conquerors, Kabars (Kavars) one example.

Onur Dincer said...

@Andrzejewski

Bear in mind that the Germanic Franks were a strong ruling minority but today’s French outside of Alsace Lorraine speak Romance French and not German. And a much more relevant example to the Hungarian discussion- in Bulgaria Khan Krum ruled over a majority Slavic population; Bulgars were maybe 1% of the population whereas the native Thracians or whatever were largely annihilated by the Justinian Plague by 536. So Slavic filled the void. Lo and behold- by the time king Boris converted to Christianity, there was nothing left of the ruling Bulgars in Bulgarian society, not even one word in the language.

The impact of the Justinian plague is exaggerated. There were much more important factors involved in the Slavicization of the Balkans.

Andrzejewski said...

@Onur “The impact of the Justinian plague is exaggerated. There were much more important factors involved in the Slavicization of the Balkans.”

Examples and sources?

Onur Dincer said...

@Andrzejewski

Examples and sources?

You can begin by reading this paper:

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/51/25546


Rob said...

@ Onur
''Then how come modern Hungarians speak Hungarian with very little genetic connection to the Hungarian conquerors?''

Because it has just been explained ('elite attrition'', followed 'commoner migration & acculturation'- if we really want to term it). It was not 'super -duper elite conquest'', or whatever non-descript & irrelevant terms you wish to evoke. So next time you interject, make sure you actually know what you're talking about and are following the line of conversation

Onur Dincer said...

@Rob

Because it has just been explained ('elite attrition'', followed 'commoner migration & acculturation'- if we really want to term it). It was not 'super -duper elite conquest'', or whatever non-descript & irrelevant terms you wish to evoke. So next time you interject, make sure you actually know what you're talking about and are following the line of conversation

I had to be more precise and use the word "commoner" rather than "local" as the the bulk of the assimilated commoners were not necessarily the ones living in the conquered territories and might rather have arrived later from the neighboring regions. So the elite dominance I have in mind is a broad term, not necessarily involving the large-scale assimilation of the conquered people(s) and involves the assimilation (or acculturation to use your term) of peoples of the neighboring lands as well following their later migrations to the conquered territories.

Rob said...

@ Onur

Yes you're not wrong. But , to impress again, I was making a different point with Andrze - and that's the original diversity of lineages in proto-Hungarians. The character is something more in the line of elite recruitement or Traditionskern

That these lineages were then lost has been known for a long time (because, as we know, modern Hungarians resemble their C.E. neighbours, but Slumberry had mentioned the possibl reason already several threads back.


One last aspect is what happened in the Carpathian basin itself, as they arrived. There is the possilbe role of elite conquest here, but until we actually know the demography of the region on the eve of their arrival, then its speculation. Indeed, after the fall of the Avar Empire 100 years earlier, it would not be surprising if some areas were simply deserted.

Onur Dincer said...

@Rob

Indeed. Until more ancient DNA comes from Hungary, including many commoners and especially from the periods before and after the conquest period, we will not be able to track the process in Hungary with a high degree of certainty. Davidski's and Slumbery's theories are appealing to me as well, they deserve to be tested in the future ancient DNA studies (but this time with autosomal DNA too please!).

Ric Hern said...

What I have learned from all this is that Elite dominance is not always accompanied by Linguistic change. In some situations people might have taken up the Elites Language as a second language. Economic benefits must really reach everyone in a country before total language change becomes an option or the most sensible thing to do.

Richard Rocca said...

@Gaska - The third time in the past months, I provide a simple sentence with data and you provide some paranoid nonsense about conspiracies. You should sticks to the facts. If you must know, below are the calls. The sample is 100% I2a2:

I2-PF3651
I2a2-PF3893
I2a2-S6631
I2a2a-PF6915
I2a2a1a-FGC18616
I2a2a1a-S22470

Gaska said...

@Rocca

You and your friends have lost credibility a long time ago, that is, your opinion is irrelevant because you only generate distrust. Surely you are able to find R1b-L51 on Mars but unable to find it in Germany. I prefer to wait for the results to be published and then comment on that

We noted 28 different mitochondrial DNA and 9 Y chromosome haplotypes (9 of 25 males carried the same haplotype)- Niedertiefenbach plots near Blatterhole, Iberian BBs, Iberia chalcolithic Iberia MN, Baalberge MN and Globular Amphora-

When you want, we can discuss sample by sample, I suppose you will be interested in knowing the opinion of the geneticists who have published the work

It's funny to see how the conspirators accuse others of paranoids. You are transforming into Niccoló Machiavelli

Hodo Scariti said...

@ Gaska

The haplogroups are indeed more or less 9 for the males: mant times, with small BAM files, academics don't go very deep with subclades, because it is safer to stop before. So, some samples would be labelled as I*, CT, I2*, I2a*, I2a1* and so on. To those you have to add the samples better covered and labelled with deep subclades. It doesn't take a genius to understand that you can.reach easily 9 different haplotype even with few samples. As for the Supplementary tables, they only forgot to add them. It's normal and it can happen: nothing to be worried about. The thing about which everyone may be worried about is your tendence to see complots everywhere... I suggest you to read your post and reflect about what you wrote. You deliberately ignore what people write and you willingly quote other users falsely and misunderstanding them. I think you have to solve your hypocrisy before approaching other people.

Gaska said...


Have you analyzed the BAm Files for anthrogenica? Of course there are 9 haplotypes but you don't seem to understand what I am saying. There are 2/3 very doubtful cases with calls in R1b (they have probably been previously qualified as CT)- That has already happened other times as in ATP3, for that reason you have to investigate the calls well to verify that they are exclusive of a certain marker and to be able to discard other options (pollution, deamination, women bam files)

Biased people can say that ATP3 sample is garbage and yet they are able to say that Quedlingurg is Df27 without having found a single snp downstream that marker- That is what I call hypocrisy-

I am surprised that those prestigious researchers have forgotten publish the supplementary information of an important work. I know other publications about that same site with data from some individuals (dating, diseases, mit haps) that have been previously published so all we have to do is wait.

I know exactly what I write, why I write it, and what I mean when I write it, and of course I deliberately ignore what certain people (like you) write, especially if they work for anthrogenica-


Archi said...

@Davidski "Hungary was almost totally depopulated during Tatar raids"

What kind of Tatar raids? What are you talking about? There were no Tatar raids on Hungary.

Slumbery said...

@Archi

There were no Tatar raids on Hungary.

You have an astonishing combination of confidence and ignorance. There were a lot of Tatar raids in Hungary.

1. One big one in 1241-42 that basically erased some regions of the country. It was a part of the big Mongol advance, but the warriors were actually mostly Tatars.

2. During the Ottoman wars, for about 150 years, Hungary was repeatedly raided by Tatars. There were many big raids and pretty much dozens of smaller ones.
Fun fact: At some point it was considered that a bishop should be sent to the Crimea, because there was so many Catholic Hungarian slave there.
And that was just a tip of the iceberg. The repeated Tatar raids were the main reason why much of Hungary was strongly depopulated at the time. In some regions there was a 80%-90% population loss and especially the village network disappeared.
The Tatars were technically called in by Ottomans as allies, but the Ottoman authorities exercised little control over them, so they indiscriminately raided any vulnerable settlement regardless if they were under Ottoman rule or enemy control. The Ottoman administration only protected bigger places where they were actually present personally.

Slumbery said...

@ Andrzejewski

It was also speculated that only 20% of current Hungarian vocabulary stems from Uralic sources: about 10% is Turkic, close to 40% is Indo-European and the rest 30% is unidentified. It was further claimed by some linguists, both Hungarians and non-Hungarian that that 30% is Yenisseyan in origin and came with either the Q1a Huns, Xiungnu or Avars.

I'd really appreciate if you came up with a source for your repeated claim about this Yeniseian vocabulary in Hungarian. I read about the sources of Hungarian vocabulary in Hungarian and I visit on-line forums were actual Hungarian academic linguist discuss topics like this and I never heard about this Yeniseian connection, not even as a theory to be debunked. At most it is a fringe theory advocated by a few loons.

Also it is pointless to compare percentages of the vocabulary without knowing what they mean, how often they are used and when they got into Hungarian based on the changes they went through. Words with Uralic and Ugric roots/origins are easily the wast majority of Hungarian words by usage frequency and dominate the core vocabulary.

Richard Rocca said...

@Gaska, I've explained itmany times to you, but your biased mind can't seem to remember. Almost 100% of ancient DNA samples have some positive call for R1b. It is due to damage. But when a sample like this has a whole trail of SNPs leading up to I2a2, then it is obvious what its clasification is. This sample also has many negative calls for upstream of SNP. Now stop being a dickhead and stick to the facts and not your paranoid disillusion.

Archi said...

@Slumbery
You have an amazing ability to distort everything because of ignorance.

1. This is a Mongol invasion in one(!) year. It had a negligible effect on Hungary compared to other countries. There can be no question of any extermination of the population. How insignificant the effect was can be judged by the fact that a year later the Hungarian troops captured three areas of Austria!
The greater effect produced the plague.

2. These are the Ottomans. The Crimean Khanate was part of the Ottoman Empire. No exaggeration, Hungary fought with the Ottomans, and the Crimean Tatars were only support troops, in most cases only the Ottomans fought. And in general, the war mainly went to Transylvania, far from the main Hungary. Tatars generally participated precisely in raids to Transylvania. It is far from the main Hungary. The war with the Ottomans began in 1526, by that time population of Hungary was clearly the same as it is now.

Slumbery said...

@Andrzejewski + Rob

There is no reason to assume that the frequency of N1c among the conquerors is a good indicator of the mixing ratio within the confederation. I see no a priory reason why would anybody assume that an early Medieval Uralic speaking group must be 100% N1c. Even if the PU speakers were all N1c 4000 years ago (I doubt it) there had to be a lot of mixing in the next 2000+ years.

Conversely, just because a 900 AD Hungarian had N1c, he could have been Turkic speaker at the time.

We know pretty much nothing about the sociolinguistic situation among 10th century Hungarians. There are simply no sources. There are strong indications that they could be bilingual (Turkic-Ugric), but there are only speculations about why the Ugric language won out (by and large). One possibility that the devastating defeats from the hands of the Germans around the mid 10th century hit the Turkic elite more and that caused a shift, a monopolization of power by the Ugric part of the confederation with the collapse of the Turkic elite. But this is only a speculation, we simply do not know.


Andrzejewski

and especially the fact that the first “Magyar” kings of Hungary bore Turkic names - from Arpad to “Kalman” in the 1200s.

The name Árpád has a Turkic root, but with an FU suffix. Grammatical elements like that suffix are less frequently borrowed that words, so while the root word had Turkic origin, the name itself probably formed in Ugric speaking environment after the root word (árpa = barley) was already borrowed.

That is not to say that there was no a huge Turkic influence, the point is, just because a name is based on a Turkic root word, it does not follow that it itself is Turkic, let alone that the person with the name had Turkic as a first language.

Gaska said...

@Rocca

You are a genius, you are able to swear that Quedlinburg I0806 is Df27, without having discovered a single snp downstream that marker- Why? Do you have any reason to do so? Has anyone in the international scientific community accepted that discovery? - Do you think everyone is dumb? Do you still believe that this sample is Df27?Can you deny the massive founder effect of df27 in Iberia? Do you still believe the Df27 in Sicily come from France?
You are really interested in knowing the truth about the origin of R1b-P312?-I am going to tell you the truth so that everyone can read it.

1-I0806-QUedlinburg is only ZZ11*, ancestral to Df27 and U152-Nothing more
2-The oldest confirmed Df27 in Europe is in Sicily and can only be modeled with the Iberian BBs ergo it seems clear what is its origin

Why you can't accept that ATP3 is R1b-M269 despite having a whole trail of SNPs leading up to that marker?That is, you only accept what interests you to demonstrate your fairy tales. You can convince many people but for me your credibility is equal to zero-I'm glad Kurganists takes your garbage seriously

Regarding Niedertiefenbach, I recommend you talk to the researchers,

Slumbery said...

@Archi

@Archi

Please stop embarrassing yourself. It is perfectly natural if somebody who is not Hungarian knows little about the history of the country. What is not natural that you try to educate others on topics you have little knowledge of.


This is a Mongol invasion in one(!) year. It had a negligible effect on Hungary compared to other countries.

Well, two years and it is plenty enough to cause huge damage, they engulfed the entire country. The lasting effect was probably less than in Russia (duh...), but the immediate impact was big.
Also a significant part of the nobility was wiped out in the decisive battle at Muhi.

At the time the main Mongol/Tatar army attacked Hungary and their auxiliary army attacked Poland and at some point a dispatch from the auxiliary army attached (unsuccessfully) Bohemia. Then the khan also ordered the auxiliary army from Poland to Hungary. It was not just some raid, they were making a grab for the territory and the only reason they had not finished because the khan got news of the dead of the great khan at home and hurried back (too late).

How insignificant the effect was can be judged by the fact that a year later the Hungarian troops captured three areas of Austria!

Austria was not the country it became later and the three areas you speak of were three counties of the kingdom that were snatched by the duke during the Mongol invasion. All this proves that they still had enough strength to defend against vultures like the duke, but the loss was still significant.

The exact extent of population loss is difficult to size up, but we know that a systematic colonization was deemed necessary by king.

And in general, the war mainly went to Transylvania, far from the main Hungary

This is a point were you are dead wrong up to the point of being clueless. Actually the main front of the war was mostly Hungary proper and Transylvania got it _relatively_ easy until the second half of the 17th century when it was also pretty brutally razed in a war specifically aimed at it.
In the west there were multiple lasting wars between the Ottomans and the Habsburg, the biggest one lasted 15 years continuously. And then the Ottomans made multiple campaigns to capture Vienna. Each time, the Tatars were there.

Archi said...

@Slumbery "We know pretty much nothing about the sociolinguistic situation among 10th century Hungarians"

Just because you don’t know doesn’t mean that no one knows. You embarrass yourself by writing in topics you don't know.

Just the structure of the Hungarian army of 9-10 centuries is known. It consisted of two Magyar tribes that made up 7 Magyar clans (Hetumogier) and 7 Kuman tribes, these are tribes of the Turks: Bashkir-Kumans, Khazar-Kabars and Bulgar-Onogurs.
It was the Turks who conducted the campaigns of conquest, it was they who ruled, the head of the Hungarians was Turk Kursan, historical sources know only him, they do not know any Arpad. Arpad is known precisely by the clan legends of the Magyars. Kursan ruled on campaigns, and Arpad in occupied places, the Hungarians had dual power on the Khazar model. Kursan died in the campaign, and only Magyarin Arpad remained in the rulers, who handed over the rule to his son with the Turkic name Sultan. Exactly that the majority of Turks died in campaigns, especially when they began to pursue failures from the year 930. The Magyars, on the other hand, sat on the ground, military campaigns had less impact on their population, and because of this their language spread, especially because the Magyars covered the country with royal courts thanks to the matrimonial ties in which they spoke Magyars. Thanks to the Türks, the country began to be called Hungary < Onogurs in the West and Turki in Greece.

"Also a significant part of the nobility was wiped out in the decisive battle at Muhi."

Nobility died in all battles at all times!

Don't twitch it, I wrote about the war involving the Tartars, it's clear from the next sentence that you ignored.

Richard Rocca said...

Gaska - So the guy that doesn't have the technical skill to even open up a BAM file and is claiming that KH150190 with dozens of negative upstream R1b calls is R1b is calling me a genious? And questioning a guy who spent hundreds of hours analyzing BAMs and had a peer reviewed paper? LOL. But now the truth is out, you are butt-hurt because your own DF27 was found in a German Bell Beaker sample. You are a biased utlra-nationalist troll of the highest order.

Slumbery said...

@Archi

Just because you don’t know doesn’t mean that no one knows. You embarrass yourself by writing in topics you don't know.

I actually paraphrased a Hungarian academic historical linguist here and did not specifically talked about my knowledge. Of course you know better, because you are infallible.
The problem with you that you know so little of the topic that you don't even understand how much is the "facts" you are stating are merely speculations. Speculations can be right, but they should not be mistaken to solid data.

BTW, we have historical source for Árpád, he is mentioned by name in the De administrando imperio (DAI) and that is as early of a source you can get, we have no earlier source for Kursan either.

As for the Tatar part: you keep shifting the goalpost. Your original claim was that there were no Tatar raids in Hungary. Then tried to belittle them (while pretending you had not said that there were not any) Now, after multiple golapost-shifts, your are trying to address a small side remark as an important point. And it is not like you did not repeat things I already said, all the while pretending that you are making a counter-point. You are arguing in a really fallacious way.

Archi said...

@Slumbery

You cringe forever. It was written there that it was precisely because of the Tatars that the Hungarian nobility died out, but this is not so, so you will deceive. You wrote that there were many Tatar raids, and this is pure deception. All Tatar raids were within the framework of the Ottoman Wars and almost exclusively on Transylvania, they were part of the Ottoman army. That is, it was not exactly the Tatar raids, it was the campaigns of the Ottoman army. Therefore, your insinuations that the Tatars influenced the gene pool of the Hungarians are simply ridiculous. You simply try to bulge out the role of the Tatars in the ethnogenesis of the Hungarians with your false fabrications and therefore twist.

Archi said...

@@Slumbery

In general, it’s just ridiculous to call Tatar raids as part of other armies, then the Battle of Grunwald was also a Tatar raid, the Tatars raided the Teutonic Order. Hahaha

It is not necessary to exaggerate the role of the Tatars in the Ottoman wars in Hungary, it was insignificant and strictly subordinate, but if you wrote that it was the Ottomans that seriously influenced the Hungarians, then this would be worthy of consideration.

Gaska said...

@Rocca

Yeah, you are a magical genius and thanks to your magic wand you are able to interpret a Bam File in a prodigious way, and then a German ZZ11 becomes Df27 and an M269 in a garbage sample-Thank God you're not the only person I know who has time and ability to analyze an ancient genome and all the people I've talked have confirmed to me that you are very, very, very wrong

Of course, in order to develop these magical abilities, you need nobody to oppose you, and therefore you only surround yourself with obedient sheep-You should apply your superior intelligence and your ability to analyze bam files to tell the truth, because sooner or later everyone will understand that your magic is a lie

You know that I0806 is not DF27 and never will be, and even if it was it would have its origin in Iberia just like the Sicilian samples-The day you are able to recognize this truth you will earn my respect, in the meantime I can only think that you look like pinocchio

Respect is not earned by publishing a paper is earned by telling the truth even if your bosses and your friends don't like it

Huck Finn said...

@ Slumbery: Many thanks for your valuable comments. I don't know if you have noticed but it's kind of sad that internet in many cases mostly unite people lacking any basic information of the issues they're referring to, with people having obvious mental issues. But, as said, thanks for trying anyway.

Archi said...

@Huck Finn

He's just stating categorically without knowing the subject. Kursan is mentioned in synchronous Western annals, which were written directly, in general, only known about him from them. And Arpad only as the founder of the family much later than his life, the first time he is mentioned almost 50 years after his life precisely to justify the right of Hungarian kings to the throne.


Hodo Scariti said...

@ Gaska

You can ignore whatever you want. The fact is that if you don't believe to other's analysis, then do that by yourself and tell us what do you discover.

I don't work for Anthrogenica... I'm not even logged in that site, but I read sometimes topics, because I find very useful their section Ancient Dna - New papers.

I don't know what's your game, but you haven't got the basic to understand BAM analysis, and your words speak for themselves. As Rocca said, it's true that in almost 100% ancient samples there are R1b calls. I analyzed some BAM files surely labelled as a certain haplogroup and I found few calls on M269 level. It's normal. But I remember you were the guy who didn't even know that in a female sample you can find calls on Y chromosome. That's the really basic knowledge... and you haven't got a single inch of knowledge in the field. I suggest you to try to understand what to analyze a BAM file means. Try to do it for yourself. I tried... and believe me: you will find that things aren't black and white and conspiracy driven as you want to make us believe.

Richard Rocca said...

@Gaska - Here you go biased troll, the positive read for DF27 in I0806. The BAM file is public, so ANYONE can access it and see for themselves. Can you please provide a screenshot where it isn't DF27?

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/I0806_BAM_DF27.jpg

Rob said...

@ Gaska
If the official paper disproves Rocca & co, then you’re right. But you haven’t shown anything to the contrary
But I2a2a1a makes sense - with Michelsberg being the link between British Neolithic & Wartberg gallery graves

Rob said...

@ Slumberry

“ There is no reason to assume that the frequency of N1c among the conquerors is a good indicator of the mixing ratio within the confederation. I see no a priory reason why would anybody assume that an early Medieval Uralic speaking group must be 100% N1c. Even if the PU speakers were all N1c 4000 years ago (I doubt it) there had to be a lot of mixing in the next 2000+ year”

Yep that’s true.
Which is why I outlined : “ Why the confederacy chose Uralic, as opposed to a different language, requires sociolinguistic thoughts, not just genetic percentages”

But it’s good to see youve echoed my view

Arza said...

@ EastPole
What we need is to correlate genes with languages and religions not only with pots to get some ethnic history explained

Sometimes the "pots" may provide a proof that not only material goods were being actively exchanged between different groups, but also the ideas related to religion.

E.g. check page 30 (in PDF, 69 in text):
http://cejsh.icm.edu.pl/cejsh/element/bwmeta1.element.desklight-c922969a-4348-4c27-8ca8-68e14c533744/c/Przybyla_RANS_8.pdf

Links showed in this map can explain all of the similarities between religions of Greeks and Slavs.

Another example:
http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2019/05/northern-etruscans.html

Interestingly in the later Wielbark culture and in Etruscans Y-DNA I1 was found.

Romulus said...

I have heard several times about this mythical I1 in Etruscans, what study is that coming from? AFAIK so far we only have one J2b from the Etruscans.

Arza said...

@ Romulus
what study is that coming from?
Upcoming one, obviously.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16487-The-Italian-Peninsula-through-Ancient-DNA&p=594571&viewfull=1#post594571

Arza said...

@ Rob
@ Gaska
If the official paper disproves Rocca & co, then you’re right.


R-M269 appears in the East as suddenly as in the West and it seems that there is no R-M269 in the East before Afanasievo/Yamnaya.

In Central and Western Europe R-M269 is highly correlated with the steppe ancestry, but at the same time the levels of it are moderate.

R-M269 is divided into Eastern and Western branches and the only place where both divisions overlap in large quantities are the Balkans and Central Europe.

Doesn't all of this point to the diversification of R-M269 somewhere in the contact zone between the western steppe and EEF cultures?

I2181_published I2181 MathiesonNature2018 6453 4550-4455 calBCE (5680±30 BP, Beta-432803) Bulgaria_Late_C1_published Smyadovo M HV15 R

If you'll look into the genotyped data you will find out that it has a positive call for CTS9018, but a negative one for SK2080, which means that it's P297(xM478).

So it doesn't leave too many options: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P297/

BTW it's not a wrongly dated Yamnaya as it's negative for CTS1078 (R-Z2103).

Rob said...

Im just referring to the I-calls in Wartberg. I don't expect R1b-M269 there

Arza said...

@ Rob
It's negative for:

R1a~:F886
R1a~:CTS3877
R1a~:FGC32438
R1a~:CTS11734
R1a1a~:F989
R1a1a~:CTS1619
R1a1a1b:PF6158

so the answer is yes.

Vladimir said...

@Arza
What is the archaeological context of this I2181? Hamangia?

Arza said...

@ Vladimir
I have no idea. That's rather a question to Rob.

Ric Hern said...

@ Arza

We have to wait and see if the Forest Steppe/Northern Russia doesn't show the same signs of overlapping...

Rob said...

Good to know

Vladimir said...

There are not many options. Or Hamangia or Karanovo. And the R1b-M269 may be a precursor to the R1b-PF7562

Rob said...

@ Azra
So he has M269+ calls ?

What about I2430 ?

EastPole said...

@Arza

“Links showed in this map can explain all of the similarities between religions of Greeks and Slavs.”

So you think that Greeks could pick up elements of Slavic religion from Ottomány culture due to the contacts between Carpathian Basin and the North (Maszkowice}?

I used to think that it happened later due to Hyperborean migrations, Abarys-Pythagoras contacts etc.

It may be more complex set of influences. Notice that Iliad has similarities with Ramayana, but Homer is quite different from Rigveda. Rigveda has many similarities with Orphic and Slavic religion.

Arza said...

@ Rob
It's a very low coverage sample and this assignment - R-P297(xM478) - is based mostly on a set of negative calls. So no, I2181_published doesn't have a derived call for M269. But it's highly likely that the unpublished one has it. Otherwise we would be dealing with a completely new branch under P297 or with a split of M478 or M269 into two branches. Given the fact that this sample shows some level of the steppe admixture that is correlated with M269 it's pretty clear which option is the most probable.

I2430 is under R-V88.

@ Ric Hern
Definitely we should wait for new publications, just don't have high hopes.

Arza said...

@ EastPole
So you think that Greeks could pick up elements of Slavic religion from Ottomány culture due to the contacts between Carpathian Basin and the North (Maszkowice}?

Rather due to the contacts between Mycenaean Greece and the Carpathian Basin.

The best model in G25 for Balto-Slavs living north of Carpathians is Baltic BA + CWC + Baden. If you'll add Cypriots as a proxy for pre-Slavic Greeks you'll be able to model everyone from Estonia to Crete. Add Levanluhta and you have a model working from Crete to Karelia.

The only question is whether Baltic BA was Balto-Slavic or just Baltic. In the second variant that CWC + Baden Carpathian population (initially without the "Balto-Slavic drift") was (Pre-)Proto-Slavic. On maybe even Thraco-Slavic since in such case it would be obvious that Balto-Slavic is just a sprachbund and a result of 2500 years of mixing and living side by side.

Will Mittnik be our lucky researcher once again? Hopefully so.

Rob said...

@ Arza
Thanks for that !

Onur Dincer said...

In case you missed it, here is a new ancient DNA study on the elite Avars from what is now Hungary dated to 100 or more years after the arrival of Avars there (26 tested individuals in total, most of them male):

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-57378-8

Abstract
After 568 AD the Avars settled in the Carpathian Basin and founded the Avar Qaganate that was an important power in Central Europe until the 9th century. Part of the Avar society was probably of Asian origin; however, the localisation of their homeland is hampered by the scarcity of historical and archaeological data. Here, we study mitogenome and Y chromosomal variability of twenty-six individuals, a number of them representing a well-characterised elite group buried at the centre of the Carpathian Basin more than a century after the Avar conquest. The studied group has maternal and paternal genetic affinities to several ancient and modern East-Central Asian populations. The majority of the mitochondrial DNA variability represents Asian haplogroups (C, D, F, M, R, Y and Z). The Y-STR variability of the analysed elite males belongs only to five lineages, three N-Tat with mostly Asian parallels and two Q haplotypes. The homogeneity of the Y chromosomes reveals paternal kinship as a cohesive force in the organisation of the Avar elite strata on both social and territorial level. Our results indicate that the Avar elite arrived in the Carpathian Basin as a group of families, and remained mostly endogamous for several generations after the conquest.


Despite that relatively late date, all the tested Y-DNA haplogroups are East Eurasian (N-Tat and Q1) and about 70% of the tested mtDNA haplogroups are East Eurasian. The haplogroups, and especially the mtDNA haplogroups, show the closest connection to the Late Iron Age and medieval Central Asian steppe and Mongol steppe populations among the extant ancient DNA and Turkic and Mongolic peoples of Central Asia, Mongolia and South Siberia among modern populations. All of these results confirm the historical, linguistic (both of which come primarily from the Byzantine records), archaeological and physical anthropological data about them, all of which point to the Turkic, Mongolic or some other Altaic affiliation of Avars. Unfortunately no autosomes were tested in the study.