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Tuesday, November 9, 2021

Crazy stuff


I'm hoping that 2022 is the year when this problem is finally straightened out. Over to you David Reich, Nick Patterson, Iosif Lazaridis, David Anthony, Wolfgang Haak, Johannes Krause and colleagues.
See also...

An early Iranian, obviously

The Hajji Firuz fiasco

A Mycenaean and an Iron Age Iranian walk into a bar...

550 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 400 of 550   Newer›   Newest»
Alkabir said...

@Davidski
"Based on what I've seen, Y-DNA G and J will be important in ancient Mesopotamia."

Sorry for going off topic, but do you know where and when will these samples from Mesopotamia be from? Upper or Lower Mesopotamia? Bronze age or Iron age?

SKRiBHa said...

@East Pole, @Andrzejewski, @Ambron, @Arza

https://youtu.be/G7IkJJsMy5w
Homo sapiens w Europie - historia zapisana w DNA
253 views Streamed live on Nov 9, 2021
Muzeum Ewolucji

Prof. Marek Figlerowicz od 10 minuty opisuje współczesną naukę i rzeczywistość przez nią tworzoną. To wszystko na temat, co wielu jest nie w smak.

Nie piszę tego po angielsku, bo i tak nikt tu nie odpowiada na żadne moje pytanie, więc nie będę się wysilał dla tych, którzy i tak rozumieją nic... :-)

vAsiSTha said...

@a

"But Rig Veda mentions them more than the cow
The oldest, the Rig Veda, itself attests to the cultic importance of horses to ancient Indian culture."

There are 2 reasons as to why some animal/technology could be praised. 1) abundance of it 2) lack of it but craving for its abundance.

There is nothing more important to the vedic culture than the fire altar. this is just basic childhood knowledge to any brahmin. the vedic culture is chiefly the culture of daily fire worship. horse, cattle etc is all secondary. Indra & AgnI - find out the frequency of these in RV.

Andrzejewski said...

@wise dragon “ The thing is that Reich noted that these Copper Age Israelites were a genetic dead end”

So according to you and Reich, are Ashkenazi Jews descendants of Khazarian mixed with Slavs rather than Levantine Israelites intermarried with Italians?

Matt said...

@Rob: "Are you suggesting earlier Yamnaya - Afanasievo, alternative trans-Caucasian routes &/or later nomads as co-contributors ?"
No; I probably shouldn't have said anything, just noting a weird behaviour in G25 where when it came to my very rough attempt at modelling South Asians, Progress+GAC separately gave very different patterns than Sintashta (even though roughly Sintashta should approximately be like Progress+GAC in the grand scheme of things, and in theory the sole contributor of Progress like ancestry to South Asia). I don't really have any notion about why this should be, or what it would mean (if anything).

@a: Why wouldn't it be?

I don't really have any reason to think it wouldn't be based on the preview, just noting that lots of claims are made for Iran_N / CHG like ancestry found in relatively early samples to not *really* be Iran_N/CHG. Although the Old Kingdom is not that early... (Predynastic, now that would be an interesting period to have sampled).

Matt said...

New El Argar paper just dropped - https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abi7038 - "Genomic transformation and social organization during the Copper Age–Bronze Age transition in southern Iberia"

Gedrosian said...

@ Davidski
Do you think most remains of the Ganj Dareh what is known as the Iran_N are genetically originated in Gedrosia not Persia? the same applied for Hotu (I1293), Tepe Abdul Hosein_N (AH1/AH2/AH4) and Wezmeh_N (WC1) remains! Because they are related closely to the Modern Gedrosian clusters (Makrani/Brahui/Baloch) which clearly distinguished from the Modern Persian clusters as it’s confirmed by the neighbouring tree (Produced by the PAST program). As this fact will shift the migration path for some of the ancient remains in the Iranian Plateau!

a said...

vAsiSTha said...
@a

"But Rig Veda mentions them more than the cow
The oldest, the Rig Veda, itself attests to the cultic importance of horses to ancient Indian culture."

There are 2 reasons as to why some animal/technology could be praised. 1) abundance of it 2) lack of it but craving for its abundance.

There is nothing more important to the vedic culture than the fire altar. this is just basic childhood knowledge to any brahmin. the vedic culture is chiefly the culture of daily fire worship. horse, cattle etc is all secondary. Indra & AgnI - find out the frequency of these in RV.

There are not many areas/regions you have either/or DOM2 horse/cow/ram-4 wheel wagon/2 wheel chariot burials. Fire played an important role in Sintashta homes-metalurgy.
As for -

Agni&Indra
Agni is the Hindu god of fire and the twin brother of Indra, the King of the Gods.He is regarded as the friend and protector of humanity, in particular, he safeguards the home. While Indra-lightning, thunder, storms, rains, river flows and war.

*h₁n̥gʷnís, other reflexes of which include Latin ignis (the root of English ignite), Sclavonian ogni; Russian огонь (ogon'), Polish "ogień", Slovenian "ogenj", Serbian oganj, and Lithuanian ugnis, all meaning "fire".

Not far from Utyevka R1a chariot burial you have another Kurgan with R1b and Dom2 (Sosnovka and Turganik)horses and even another kurgan with Indra's potential Vajra (cudgel) like weapon burial-Kurgan 4 at Kutuluk. The kurgan, about 69 feet in diameter, has been radiocarbon dated to 2500-2300 B.C.
I0444
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433/F11.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

Oh, Indra, getting your support
Let us take cudgels,
Like...vajra,
And will gain a victory over all the rivals

Chariot burial/Horse
Settlements-Sinashta/Potapovka-I0426-R1a
earliest apparent chariot rider we have - "The Utyevka VI cemetery

Wise dragon said...


@Andrzejewski


"So according to you and Reich, are Ashkenazi Jews descendants of Khazarian mixed with Slavs rather than Levantine Israelites intermarried with Italians?"


I don't think so. Fully Ashkenazi Jews usually score 40% to 60% Middle Eastern with the rest being Southern and Eastern European. For instance, Ashkenazi Jews from Russia have more Eastern European- like admixture than Jewish folks from Germany, in fact, 10%- 15% Eastern European.

ambron said...

Skribha, dyskutowaliśmy o tym kilka dni temu na moim forum. Wprawdzie Figlerowicz się krygował, że nie będzie odpowiadał na pytania o wyniki Symfonii, to jednak sypnął się w dwóch miejscach:

1) przy slajdzie pokazującym napływ stepowców do Polski, Figlerowicz mówi, że to po nich odziedziczyli Polacy miłość do koni;

2) w odpowiedzi na ostatnie pytanie Figlerowicz mówi, że w okresie rzymskim i ludność ze wschodniej Polski, i ta spod Poznania, wykazywała zakres zmienności genetycznej całej Europy.

Pierwsza wypowiedź sugerowałaby, iż Figlerowicz ma przekonanie, że Polacy są autochtonami swej ziemi od czasów CWC. Natomiast z drugiej wypowiedzi, nawet jeżeli Figlerowicz ten zakres przerysował, możemy wywnioskować, że będą tam m.in. genomy słowiańskie.

Ryan said...

@Andre - "So according to you and Reich, are Ashkenazi Jews descendants of Khazarian mixed with Slavs rather than Levantine Israelites intermarried with Italians?"

What? Israel didn't exist until the Iron Age. The Copper Age has nothing to do with Jewish ethnogenesis.

Romulus said...

Crazy that 100% of the Iberian R1b is DF27

Andrzejewski said...

@Skribha @ambron “ Pierwsza wypowiedź sugerowałaby, iż Figlerowicz ma przekonanie, że Polacy są autochtonami swej ziemi od czasów CWC. Natomiast z drugiej wypowiedzi, nawet jeżeli Figlerowicz ten zakres przerysował, możemy wywnioskować, że będą tam m.in. genomy słowiańskie.”

Germanic admixture in Western Slavs shows up since early Middle Ages, up to a rate of 20%-30%. We are not completely unchanged since the time of CWC.

ambron said...

Andrzejewski, this admixture appears much earlier - at least already in the Roman period:

https://slawomirambroziak.pl/forum/index.php?topic=5111.msg84490#msg84490

The same results from Ralph's study, where Poles share half of their Iron Age ancestors with the Scandinavians.

EastPole said...

@Andrzejewski

“We are not completely unchanged since the time of CWC.”

Słowianie to mieszanina CWC i EEF-HG populations with Balto-Slavic drift from around Carpatian mountains. When we get Nitra genomes you will understand:

https://postimg.cc/64y9tHdK

SKRiBHa said...

@ambron
Figlerowicz poza stwierdzeniem oczywistej oczywistości o manipulacji narracji historycznej i naukowej, stwierdził kilka bardzo dziwnych rzeczy, np. 01:01:05 Yamna / Yamnaya = Armenia i Iran, itp.

Opisałem dokładniej to, co powiedział u siebie tu:

https://skrbh.wordpress.com/2021/11/11/300-definicje-powstawania-jezykow-pie-i-post-pie-wg-skribha/comment-page-1/#comment-78508

i w następnym komentarzu.

Figlerowicz dużo i długo pływa po wierzchu (jak i z Piastami), ale to co powiedział na koniec, w dyskusji, no to już jest typowa nowomowa, patrz: Wszyscy jesteśmy podobni. Nie ma ras, ponieważ „rasa” to 25% różnic w genomie, a nie 3%…

To samo twierdzi Reich, Harvard, Max Planck Institute, itd. Figlerowicz na jakiejś podstawie stwierdza, że „rasa” to zmienność genetyczna na poziomie 25%. Ciekawe, że:

„Międzynarodowy zespół naukowców dokonał sekwencjonowania kodu genetycznego szympansa, naszego najbliższego żyjącego kuzyna, oraz porównał go z genomem człowieka. Porównanie wskazuje, że sekwencja DNA obu gatunków jest w 99 procentach identyczna”…

Logicznie wynika z tego, że szympans i człowiek to jedna rasa… :-)

Davidski ma gdzieś Figlerowicza i to co on twierdzi, ale to jest wyraźny znak, skąd wieje wiatr i woda płynie… Wygląda na to, że Davidski chce jakoś swoimi „uroczymi” komentarzami sam zatrzymać to internacjonalistyczne ormiańsko-irańskie tsunami. Życzę mu powodzenia, ale jakoś tego nie widzę...

Nie wiem, czy do Davidskiego to już dotarło, że stoi on obecnie przed punktem zwrotnym, jak kiedyś Dienekes i Carlos. Przewiduję, że wkrótce będzie musiał złożyć samokrytykę i odszczekać swoje logiczne twierdzenia, patrz Yamnaya =/= Armienia / Iran. Już jego koledzy po fachu mu to wyjaśnią lepiej niż ktokolwiek...

No chyba, że będzie miał wielkie jaja i jakoś kiedyś udowodni, że wszyscy inni j.w. mylą się…

Ja stawiam, że sądząc po jego dotychczasowym zachowaniu, w najlepszym wypadku czeka go niestety los tych dwóch, czyli ostracyzm i zapomnienie… No chyba, że wkrótce złoży tu samokrytykę i pokocha krętactwa, Armenię i Iran… hehehe

…..

Davidski, wyjaśniam, że nie życzę Ci tego chłopie. Życzę Ci zwycięstwa, ale wlazłeś między sierpy, młoty i kowadła i masz wyraźnie gdzieś tych, którzy myślą podobnie jak Ty i stoją po Twojej stronie... Tak, czy srak, będzie "zabawnie"...

StP said...

Wise dragon said...
„I don't think so. Fully Ashkenazi Jews usually score 40% to 60% Middle Eastern with the rest being Southern and Eastern European. For instance, Ashkenazi Jews from Russia have more Eastern European- like admixture than Jewish folks from Germany, in fact, 10%- 15% Eastern European”.

Eastern European origin of the Proto-Levites (Palestine)
R1a-Z93 Sub-Carpathia Glavanesti-Iasi > Fatjanovo (Russia) … > F1345
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-F1345/

Uzbekistan(?) Kumar V. et al. 2021, Genetic Continuity of Bronze Age Ancestry with Increased Steppe-Related Ancestry in Late Iron Age Uzbekistan
Abstract
While Uzbekistan and Central Asia are known for the well-studied Bronze Age civilization of Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC), the lesser-known Iron Age was also a dynamic period that resulted in increased interaction and admixture among different cultures from this region. To broaden our understanding of events which impacted the demography and population structure of this region, we generated 27 genome-wide SNP capture datasets of Late Iron Age individuals around the Historical Kushan time period (∼2100-1500 BP) from three sites in South Uzbekistan. Overall, Bronze Age ancestry persists into the Iron Age in Uzbekistan, with no major replacements of populations with Steppe-related ancestry. However, these individuals suggest diverse ancestries related to Iranian farmers, Anatolian farmers and Steppe herders, with a small amount of West European Hunter Gatherer, East Asian and South Asian Hunter Gatherer ancestry as well. Genetic affinity towards the Late Bronze Age Steppe herders and a higher Steppe-related ancestry than that found in BMAC populations suggest an increased mobility and interaction of individuals from Northern Steppe in a Southward direction. In addition, a decrease of Iranian farmers and an increase of Anatolian farmer-like ancestry in Uzbekistan Iron Age individuals were observed compared to the BMAC populations from Uzbekistan. Thus, despite continuity from the Bronze Age, increased admixture played a major role in the shift from the Bronze to the Iron Age in southern Uzbekistan. This mixed ancestry is also observed in other parts of the Steppe and Central Asia, suggesting more widespread admixture among local populations.

>CTS6 Palestine > Levi > Levites > Europe
D. Behar et al. 2017, The genetic variation in the R1a clade among the Ashkenazi Levites’ Y chromosome
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5668307/

EastPole said...

@SKRiBHa

Figlerowicz doesn’t have a clue what he is talking about. It is a waste of time listening to him.

Here Volker Heyd says clearly that the origin of CWC is not from Yamnaya:


https://youtu.be/VQG0kznIfeA?t=602

Davidski said...

I can't watch that right now.

What does Heyd say exactly?

EastPole said...

@Davidski

He says that Yamnaya is not responsible for the transmission of steppe ancestry outside steppe. CWC is responsible and CWC is not descended from Yamnaya but comes from the forest steppe.

Rob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Romulus said...

There is some I2a-M26(L160) in these Neolithic Iberians. It has been found in Neolithic Iberians from Portugal as well. There is quite a bit of this subclade in modern Iberia, in certain places 10%. It even shows up as 5% of Basque Y-Chromosomes. I don't believe this 100% Y-chromosome replacement figure, it's probably more like 90% and we are just seeing a bias in the samples. The idea of a 100% replacement doesn't mesh with modern data. Outside Sardinia there is more M26 in Iberia than anywhere else, it isn't descendant of Sardinian M26 either. It would be extremely unlikely that modern Iberian M26 is somehow Sardinian derived.

Romulus said...

@Genos
did you see the pigmentation data in the Iberian paper?: https://i.imgur.com/00EN1XZ.png

Big disappointment by this Iberian paper was failing to look into Rhesus factor related SNPs as Rhesus negativity peaks in Basques. Did it come from Bell Beakers or CA Iberians? Probably CA Iberians. Is it related to Magdalenian ancestry? Would have been great to sort that out.

Andrzejewski said...

@Romulus “ Probably CA Iberians. Is it related to Magdalenian ancestry?”

Magdalenian as in El Miron or La Brana? I think the latter is of Villabruna cluster but the former is Magdalenian. Poles have a tad of Magdalenian in them as well.

Rob said...

El Miron and Brana both have both VB & Goyet-related ancestry, just in slightly different proportions

Genos Historia said...

@Simon,

Rhesus factor sounds like a curse not an adaption. Why do Basque have it? You can ask Davidski and Arza sometime to test for Rhesus factor SNPs. Maybe we can see blood type of all prehistoric pops. There might be interesting trends.

The phenotype results don't make total sense to me. I'd like to see another analysis. For example, it is not possible for 100% of 44 Bronze age samples to have brown yes, when their Beaker ancestors in northern Europe had 55% blue eyes.

ambron said...

Skribha, nie oceniam prelekcji Figlerowicza w aż tak szerokim kontekście. Interesuje mnie głównie Polska przełomu antyku i średniowiecza. Oczywiście wiemy, że chodzi o odpowiedź na stare pytanie - czy Polacy są autochtonami polskiej ziemi, czy przybyli tu we wczesnym średniowieczu z Podnieprza? I chociaż mamy już badania archegenetyczne (antropometryczne i molekularne), wskazujące jednoznacznie na ciągłość biologiczną polskiej populacji pomiędzy okresem rzymskim a średniowieczem (Piontek, Dąbrowski, Juras, Lewandowska, Witas, Stolarek, Lorkiewicz), to jednak nadal czekamy na badanie zespołu Figlerowicza, które ma niejako postawić kropkę nad i.

A na tę chwilę wszystkie wypowiedzi Figlerowicza, również ta wcześniejsza o miejscowej ludności, która jest w przewadze i która się zasadniczo nie zmienia, świadczą o tym, że również w badaniach zespołu Figlerowicza pojawi się ciągłość biologiczna populacji polskiej.

Tak więc Polacy są autochtonami swojej ziemi przynajmniej od czasu CWC, a nie średniowiecznymi przybyszami z Podnieprza, którzy się rozmnożyli na pustce osadniczej, powstałej po rzekomej wyprowadzce wszystkich wcześniejszych mieszkańców ziem polskich. I to jest w tym wszystkim najważniejsze!

vAsiSTha said...

Scratching my head! - Criticism of Narsimhan VM et al 2019 - Pt 1

have a read. thanks

Matt said...

Re; Rhesus factor, Iain Mathieson did a blog post on it and it seems to have been a Steppe thing in the past - http://mathii.github.io/2017/09/21/blood-groups-in-ancient-europe. Though natural selection since appears to have changed this (as it has so much). Why it would have risen to higher frequency on the Steppe, I don't know. One possibility is that the EHG just had a very high frequency of the variant and since the formation of the Steppe gene pool (whenever this happend), there has been slow selected against Rh-. (In that scenario, the Basque might have it at a high share for random drift reasons? I don't know if this works)

Re; pigmentation SNPs, comparing these to the 2018 Britain Beaker paper - https://imgur.com/a/9PzMGJz. Kind of looks like the only really interesting consistent thing is a shift in SLC45A2 during these transitions in both places was a rise in derived SLC45A2. In Britain the Neolithics had at around 25%, then Beakers-CA-BA (who probably had relatively little contribution from Neolithics), at around 66%, while in Iberia goes from to 14% to 40%. OCA2 is inconsistent beween Iberia and Britain (rise only in the latter).

Matt said...

On the El Argar paper, one thing I noted in a comment on GNXP which I do find interesting about the El Argar paper is that the y-dna replacement is really strong, but they get nothing in terms of the X:A ratio.

"To assess a potential sex bias in the steppe-related ancestry contribution as postulated previously, we applied distal and proximal qpAdm models (text S8) to the X chromosome and autosomes (Fig. 6B and table S2.22). As males contribute, on average, only one-third of the X chromosomes to the next generation, a lower proportion of any ancestral component on the X chromosome than on the autosomes would thus be indicative of male bias concerning the respective component. In turn, if the ancestral component is statistically higher on the X chromosome, this indicates a female bias. On the basis of this rationale, we do not observe significant male bias in steppe-related ancestry using either distal or proximal sources (Fig. 6B and table S2.22). The fact that the male bias is not detectable could be indicative of an already balanced ancestral component in both sexes, as is reflected in the work of Mittnik et al., where the male bias in the steppe component is only detected in Corded Ware, but no longer in Bell Beaker or BA populations."

This is about the most skewed replacement of y dna I could think of, but nothing going on that's detectable with the X:A.

Other papers where we have:

- No signal of sex bias in the Bronze Age: Italy: https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(21)00535-2 - "Contrary to what has been previously reported for other Chalcolithic to BA transitions in Europe,we also noted through outgroup ƒ3 tests in form f3(Italian_CA/Italian_EBA_BA, ancient; Mbuti.DG) (Data S2K) that populations associated with Steppe-related ancestry did not leave a male-biased signature in Italy, which, if at all, can instead be seen through the contribution of pre-existing N groups (Figure S5)."

- Disappearing signal of sex bias on X:A after the CWC and during the Bronze Age: Estonia: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982219304245 - "We also tested for sex biases by comparing outgroup f3 statistics calculated on autosomal (A) and X chromosomal (X) data. The high X-to-A ratio of European-early-farmer-related ancestry observed in Estonian CWC decreases over time and disappears by the Middle Ages (Figures S2C–S2F; Data S1)."
Germany: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aax6219 - Using the qpAdm/qpWave framework we modeled the populations of the different time periods in the Lech valley as a three-way mixtures of WHG, Anatolian farmers and Steppe pastoralists, confirming a gradual increase of Neolithic farmer-like ancestry, and revealing in CWC individuals a significantly higher proportion of steppe-related ancestry on the autosomes when compared to the X-chromosome ... In contrast, the later Lech valley groups carry no significant sex bias

These are in two cases quite large sample transects (Lech Valley, Italy).

Matt said...

So why do Europeans later/after the CWC not seem ot have what seems to be a fairly characteristic CWC pattern of having more of their X chromsomes descend from EEF than their autosome, and despite the Y chromosome replacement?

The only ways I can solve are:

A) Either Europeans do not descend as much from these CWC populations as we might think but have some descent too from some currently unknown populations with less male bias or reversed male bias, without disturbing the Y dna pattern, or

B) after admixing with Europe farmers, their sons tended to admix with women from the CWC culture with more steppe ancestry than they had more commonly on average than the reverse, which would reverse the X:A sex bias without flipping the Y chromsome bias. Maybe this happened because, after the early Bell Beaker horizons got established as a new patrilocal system, men from the steppe rich cultures became less able to migrate than females. (In this scenario you might have something like a *very* EEF group of early Beakers with completely steppe Y chromosome but a low of level of steppe ancestry getting established somewhere, then accepting women only from a steppe rich CWC group? If this happened very quickly in some region with few settlements and visible graves, we wouldn't be able to find evidence of it.).

But there is no real evidence for this yet and I don't know if either mathematically works. So I wonder if these are the only viable ways to explain this problem. Does anyone else have any other ideas about how to solve this problem?

Tom said...

@ Romulus @ Matt

"https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abi7038"

Wow, CA Iberians had more red hair and blue eyes than Iberian BA. Haplogroups I2, G2a, H2. Where does E1b come into this? Did it arrive with beakers?

Wee e said...

@Tom
I’m gonna be a bit pedantic, even though I know less about genetics than anyone who has ever posted here.
Having the red-hair gene ≠ “having red hair”.

Present day Spaniards actually carry a significant amount of red-hair genes but you don’t see a lot of redheads compared to Ireland, Scotland & Netherlands.
1. Because it’s recessive
2. Even when expressed, the pigment of red hairs is often invisible amongst the black.

In Scotland many with dark hair also carry red-headed genes. It’s really common to have very dark head hair but gingery sideburns & face hair. A bit of a shock to the guy himself, often. I don’t know whether that’s the case in Spain.

SKRiBHa said...

@ambron
Skribha, nie oceniam prelekcji Figlerowicza w aż tak szerokim kontekście. (…)

Zauważyłem to. Puściłem tu ten film, ze względu na oczywiste pomyłki i typowe niedopowiedzenia, uproszczenia i manipulacje Figlerowicza, np. co do tzw. domieszek autosomalnych i związanych z tym zagadnień, patrz np. rzekome pochodzenia Yamna / Yamnaya od CHG, rzekomo z Armenii / Iranu, itp.

Davidski, EastPole i niektórzy inni punktują to od dawna, ale jak widać logiczne argumenty nie docierają to do zbyt wielu, co niestety jest typowe. Masy ślepo podąża za tym, co wymyślają „naukowe autorytety”. Tyle że nikt z nich jakoś nie pamięta, że 7500 lat temu np. tzw. Morza Czarnego nie było, a było za to dużo mniejsze jezioro Czarne, patrz „Black Sea deluge hypothesis”, itp. i CHG mogło sobie buszować koło tego jeziora, a nie w delcie Wołgi, jak to wymyślił ostatnio Anthony…

Mam nadzieję, że Davidski jednak napisze swoją wersję jak to z Yamna / Yamnaya i CHG było i zakończy te fantazje ormiańsko-irańskie. Nie można już tego bredzenia ani czytać, ani słuchać.

(…) Interesuje mnie głównie Polska przełomu antyku i średniowiecza. Oczywiście wiemy, że chodzi o odpowiedź na stare pytanie - czy Polacy są autochtonami polskiej ziemi, czy przybyli tu we wczesnym średniowieczu z Podnieprza? (…)

Jeśli ktoś jeszcze powyższego do tej pory nie był w stanie zrozumieć, no cóż, czarny złamany krzyż mu na drogę… Taplanie się w „logice” allo-allo jest zadaniem odpowiednim dla mendrcóf z UJ itp,.. i przedszkolaków. :-)

Wybacz, ale udowadnianie, że nie jest się wielbłądem i w kółko wywarzanie dawno szeroko otwartych drzwi jest nudne od bardzo dawna i nie interesuje mnie to zupełnie.

Andrzejewski said...

@Tom @Romulus @Matt “ Wow, CA Iberians had more red hair and blue eyes than Iberian BA. Haplogroups I2, G2a, H2. Where does E1b come into this? Did it arrive with beakers?”

Not surprising in a bit: the Pequi’in (representative of the PPNB population of Israel (pre-CHG/Iran_Chl, “Abrahamic” admixture) had Hap T, blue eyes and red hair, per Lazaridis 2018. Likewise, @Genos Historia (posting as “Samuel Andrews”) in a guest blog post here as far back as 2018 speculated that the PIE/CWC were originally swarthy, prior to admixing with farmer-rich neighbors to their west (GAC and TRB). Most Globular Amphora samples found so far depicted a very light skinned and red headed population,( until at least the finding of the mass graves in Katowice 2800BC with a more dark pigmented clan). Moreover, a 5,000 year old CA reconstruction of a Briton had red hair and blue eyes looking like a modern AngloSaxon. Therefore the discovery about the CA Iberians just seals the deal in this regard.

It is odd that Anatolian farmers, with their cline with Natufians and Levant and distant affinity to putative Semitic-like groups had fair pigmentation, but like Andrews/Genos claimed years ago - it may have been the Barcins, and not the Steppe migrants and ancestors- who had the natural selection win on blondism, despite assumptions by Thule Society and Indo-Europeanists since 1920 onward.

Amanda S said...

This lecture about the Hittite language https://youtu.be/Pe4jnBdVxjw led me to the view that the Anatolian languages were sister rather than daughter languages of Proto Indo-European and that the common parent language must have come from the Caucasus region. I don’t see where the Iranian plateau comes into this.

Grant said...

The Mitanni, according to the scholarly consensus, migrated directly to SW Asia from the Indo-Aryan urheimat in Central Asia. They were never in India.

https://scroll.in/article/737715/fact-check-india-wasnt-the-first-place-sanskrit-was-recorded-it-was-syria?fbclid=IwAR1vLN2rkFIhfv409CdE1YixE2b4XEikI2Glyzz7enLzSwlOxkn57osGNY8

Tigran said...

So what was the situation like in the Paleoloithic in West Asia? Were there unmixed IUP, basal eurasians and west eurasians roaming around? And later on what the was the boundary between West Eurasians and Onge type people?

Romulus said...

@Matt

The Rhesus factor could explain it, because RH - only appears when the individual is Homozygote for the RH - allele. Heterozygotes are RH+.

Homozygote RH Negative Beaker man + Homozygote RH Positive farmer woman = Lots of Heterozygote RH Positive Children, boys and girls. No issues.

Homozygote RH Positive Farmer Man + Homozygote RH Negative Beaker woman = 1 child , or relatively very few, or none. Mother's immune system attacks and kills child, miscarriage.

Beaker women are still having lots of offspring with RH - men, as many as farmer women, so no bias on the X. The compound interest effect over time of RH + Farmer men being unable to reproduce with RH - women leads to a sharp decline in farmer Y-Chr as when the two groups mix. After the 4.2 kya event the peninsula is repopulated by a small founder population (suggested by the paper as dense clustering of these individuals) devoid of farmer Y-Chr but unbiased on the X.

Genos Historia said...

@Andrze,

But, my views have changed since the.

Because the Globular Amphora mass burial published after 2018 had all black hair & brown eyes, typical Neolithic farmers. This basically defeated my theory.

There's yet to be proof of a real blondism in a farmer population in northern Europe. At the very least we know not all of them were very blonde, as Funnel Beaker DNA in Germany & GAC in Poland are brunnette. If it did exist it existed in pockets.

I'm open minded. But ancient DNA is yet to say where the root of blondism in Europe comes from. The low frequency of blue eyes in Kurgans, does indicate they aren't the source of blondism, as blue eyes are the main predictor for blondism.

Genos Historia said...

@Andrze,

Then again, the natural inclination is to say blondism is from indigenous Europeans not om Near Eastern farmers.

Because, it seems blond hair doesn't exist outside of Europe at all. I've never seen a picture of a truly blonde person say in the Middle East. Or anywhere outside Europe.

So my "heart" says it comes from European hunter gatherers, who transmitted it to Kurgans.

A middle east origin would be too politically correct to be true. :)

I'd be kind of angry at ancient DNA if that turned out to be the case. Ancient DNA has already given too many surprises that make no sense.

Andrzejewski said...

Does the Balto-Slavic drift have something to do with an extra Hungary BA/Tollensee Valley WHG-rich populations?

vAsiSTha said...

"The Mitanni, according to the scholarly consensus, migrated directly to SW Asia from the Indo-Aryan urheimat in Central Asia. They were never in India.
"

There is a big migration of zebu cows, and elephants into syria/middle east starting 2000bce for domestication and breeding. Suffice it to say that elephants aren't found in central asia.

Canan Çakırlar & Salima Ikram (2016) ‘When elephants battle,
the grass suffers.’ Power, ivory and the Syrian elephant, Levant, 48:2, 167-183, DOI:
10.1080/00758914.2016.1198068
To link to this article: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/00758914.2016.1198068

Genos Historia said...

I'm a redhead so trust me I keep close watch of who all the red hair carriers in ancient DNA are ;).

I believe the red hair calls for ancient Spain are a mistake. It is existing news so I'm disappointed to say it is probably false.

I'm basing this on already published ancient DNA. Close to 100 West European Neolithic individuals and only two have red hair mutations. No redheads. It is unlikely one sample set from Spain would show multiple actual redheads.

The MC1R SNPs associated with red hair often get false positives. This is probably what is happening with these samples from Spain. Trust me, it annoys me because many ancient samples which I thought were carriers turned out to not be carries.

The oldest verified redhead, is Bell Beaker Hungary I2787, who was 75% Kurgan. R1b Z2103.

The next oldest come from late Bronze age Germany and Latvia. Both R1a M417>Z280.

Carries of red hair SNPs come from every era: Mesolithic, Neolithic, onwards. But they are extremely, extremely rare.

The frequency goes up with the Corded Ware derived Indo Europeans across northern Europe. Several carries are known from Bell Beaker, Sintashta, Unetice.

Once again because Corded Ware was mixed, we just have no way of knowing where the phenotype traits that existed in them ultimately originated in.

Whether in farmers or in Kurgans. It is extremely frustrating to be honest. I'm hoping someone gets heap loads of Kurgan, Neolithic northern ancient DNA soon so we can resolve the mystery.

Genos Historia said...

@Wee e,

Since you're British I'll mention.

A lot of selection occurred insitu in Britain for red hair. We have lots of ancient DNA from Beaker colonist, their Bronze age descendants, and they have 10-fold lower frequency of red hair SNPs as do modern British.

It is a good example of natural selection at work. Really serious natural selection. 10x increase is a lot. The Bronze age shed its favor on those like me.

Rob said...

@ Amanda S

Goedegebuure is cool, but unfortunately she is completely wrong about Hittites from Kura Araxes. It is impossible for KA to be proto-Anatolian

Dospaises said...

Heyd states the obvious based on results of the remains, in the YT video mentioned earlier, which is that CWC and Yamnaya are "cousins". We knew that. If they are "cousins" they then have a common origin in a "grandfather" or "grandparents". What I want to know is where did that "grandfather" live and where did the "grandfather" of the "grandfather" live. Video is at https://youtu.be/VQG0kznIfeA

Dospaises said...


24:35
all this new evidence about events 5000
24:38
years ago
24:39
and particularly the the role of dna in
24:42
it came from two nature papers published
24:45
in 2015
24:46
now six years later i can tell you a lot
24:49
of their results are actually very
24:52
questionable
24:53
and and they may not may not stand
24:56
anymore
24:57
and but this is again is the nature of
24:59
research and what i'm publishing now may
25:02
already be obsolete in a few couple of
25:04
years because we find new graves we
25:06
apply new new new kind of analysis new
25:09
methods dna is constantly publishing
25:13
hundreds if not thousands of new dna
25:16
screenings every year
25:18
and the picture is constantly changing

ambron said...

Skribha, mnie z kolei nie zajmuje aż tak bardzo poszukiwanie odpowiedzi na pytanie o kolebkę indoeuropejską. Bo czy ona leżała w Azji Środkowej, w stepach pontyjsko-kaspijskich czy w strefie leśno-stepowej, to są to na tyle odległe dzieje, że nie mają wpływu na poczucie tożsamości współczesnej
Europy.

Zdecydowanie mają natomiast taki wpływ teorie kossinnowsko-godłowskie, szeroko i agresywnie promowane w czasach swojej świetności przez ich twórców i popleczników. Oczywiście każdy, kto ma rozeznanie w aktualnym stanie badań z dyscyplin pomocniczych historii, takich jak językoznawstwo, archeologia, palinologia, antropologia fizyczna i genetyka, ten dobrze wie, że Polacy są autochtonami polskiej ziemi a nie średniowiecznymi migrantami z Podnieprza.

Jak jednak widzimy po dyskusjach chociażby właśnie u Dawida czy na AG, w zbiorowej świadomości dnieprzańskie fantazje allochtonistów zdążyły się mocno utrwalić i silnie ugruntować. Tak więc wielu ludzi jest wciąż przekonanych, że Polacy przybyli do Polski w średniowieczu z Podnieprza i zasiedlili tutejszą pustkę osadniczą, powstałą na skutek emigracji wcześniejszej ludności.

Kiedy więc tylko mam okazję, staram się prostować te głęboko zakorzenione poglądy, prezentując aktualny stan badań multidyscyplinarnych. I jak widzę, odnosi to skutek! Dlatego tak właśnie postrzegam sens prowadzenia dyskusji wokół tych zagadnień, czyli jako element edukacyjny.

Andrzejewski said...

@Genos Historia “ Then again, the natural inclination is to say blondism is from indigenous Europeans not om Near Eastern farmers.

Because, it seems blond hair doesn't exist outside of Europe at all. I've never seen a picture of a truly blonde person say in the Middle East. Or anywhere outside Europe.

So my "heart" says it comes from European hunter gatherers, who transmitted it to Kurgans.

A middle east origin would be too politically correct to be true. :)”

It’s hard to claim that it comes from WHG because Villabruna scores 10%-15% and even in Lithuanian or Finns it doesn’t exceed 30%. Most WHG samples do have blue eyes but also darkish skin tones and brown to black hair. Just look at the Erteboelle dna in Denmark. Our ancestors don’t have much WHG in them either, only up to 18% Neolithic farmer the most (Late Yamnaya, Sredny age early CWC). Our IE ancestors didn’t have blue eyes or red hair although they did have a fair skin.

Besides, the British Neolithic reconstruction looks pretty much like a modern Englishman from Cambridge, even though he had close to zilch WHG.

We found samples of Levant/Anatolian Pequi’in pop with blue eyes and perhaps even red/blond hair, per Lazaridis 2018.

Lastly, Sardinians, who are overwhelmingly of Barcin derivation, have some with blond hair and even blue or green eyes, although they are in the minority.

There were biblical characters like King David who were described as having red hair, and so was Jesus. So the ruffian dna phenotype sort of survived in pockets of the ancient Middle East.

Even today, there are many Andronovo descendants in Iran, Central Asia, Xinjiang, Syria and Yazidi Kurds who have blond hair and blue eyes. They weren’t from indigenous middle eastern pops but Andronovo brought it there.

My guess is that the Jebusites were Mittani migrants with an Indo-Aryan elite, and king Arawna had an IE name.

What probably happened was that the Neolithic Middle East, being a Levant/Natufian/Anatolian amalgam had lots of people who had mutation for blondism (30% in Barcin genes), but a later wave of Iran_Chl, BMAC and/or Kura-Araxes or CHG made them brunette.

Andrzejewski said...

@Genos Historia I disagree with the author’s conclusions, it’s definitely owing to Andronovo but here are blond Yazidi Kurds:

https://www.quora.com/How-come-some-Yazidis-have-light-eyes-and-light-hair

Andrzejewski said...

@Genos “ There's yet to be proof of a real blondism in a farmer population in northern Europe. At the very least we know not all of them were very blonde, as Funnel Beaker DNA in Germany & GAC in Poland are brunnette.”

I believe they found lots of Funnel samples with blondism and light skin. Also, the 5,000 “Englishman”.

If we claim that all “White” people living today are roughly the admixture of 2 pops, ie CWC/SGC/BBC with GAC (or if you will - one population from North of Black Sea - our Kurgan ancestors, and one from its south shores - Barcin, 70% of GAC), then maybe the typical European phenotype arose after the BA, due to genetic drift, founder effect and natural selection?

Although Narva HG were blond, I can’t imagine then passing this trait to modern Europeans, nor can I envision the Tripolyans doing the same, because the ratio of either Narva or Tripolye dna in modern Europeans is almost non-existent.

The only plausible explanation left to be is that there are many yet to be discovered samples “hiding” in the PC carrying blondism.

Matt said...

@Romulus, that an interesting idea and I can kind of see where you're coming from. It seems like an idea worth testing. I think it seems like it might help explain reproductive sex bias, and it could explain some absence of X:A bias along with y chromosome bias (if its effectively like an initial incompatibility that reduces in effect after the first generation).

Would probably need some models to work out, but I think one thing would be you'd see quite a strong selection and very fast on Rh factor in some direction during that time if that's so?

So that might be consistent with selection in the Basque group moving towards a RH- population, as women in the group would have more children? I think Mathieson's review also pointed to a higher RH- in Bronze Age Europeans than expected from Steppe+EEF average, which has since declined due to negative selection.

Just as a quick thing, without even considering factors like that, I quickly made a toy model of what I mentioned in the previous comments, a scenario where we have a few generations of male biased steppe admixture followed a one reverse admixture generation: https://imgur.com/a/pfanaGM

I think it shows that, although the X:A is encoding the history in a less binary way than the uniparental markers, there is still a latest generation bias, and it's not too hard easy to find situations that nullify or reverse even multiple generations of male bias with the last generation.
That's even possible if both sides of the ancestry tree have a steppe male bias, as long it's not too huge in the females from the latest generation. If once the initial steppe related expansion took hold in SW Europe, they continued to bring in women from Central Europe with less of a male steppe bias than they had, then the X:A ratio could even out. The same is true for Central Europe relative to the steppes.

Dmytro said...

Re Ambron nov. 21 at 12:48 am

What do you think about the Ukrainians? Were they autochtons or allochtons in your view? I can read Polish so please respond in that language if you wish.

Simon_W said...

@ambron

We have yet to see a paper on Iron Age and early Medieval Polish DNA. A shame it takes so long to put it together! Personally I wouldn't have a problem if the Poles turned out to be autochthonous, I'd just be surprised. And I don't understand why it's so important to many Poles to be autochthonous. Many ethnic groups are not autochthonous, yet this doesn't make them feel bad.

Ric Hern said...

@ Romulus

Very interesting idea. I'm O Negative and my wife O Positive. No problem. But the other way around would have been very problematic. So I can see how this could have wiped out a very large chunk of Farmer Y-DNA.

SKRiBHa said...

@ambron
(…) Skribha, mnie z kolei nie zajmuje aż tak bardzo poszukiwanie odpowiedzi na pytanie o kolebkę indoeuropejską. Bo czy ona leżała w Azji Środkowej, w stepach pontyjsko-kaspijskich czy w strefie leśno-stepowej, to są to na tyle odległe dzieje, że nie mają wpływu na poczucie tożsamości współczesnej Europy. (…)

Dla mnie też nie ma to znaczenia, a szczególnie jeśli chodzi o powiązanie PIE i „tożsamości współczesnej Europy”. Problematyczne jest jednak dla mnie to, jak to i inne wynikające z tego zagadnienia są „badane”, patrz przekręcanie faktów zgodnie z tą, czy tamtą „właściwą narracją”.

Bomhard w 2019 napisał swoją teorię o rzekomym podkładzie językowym kartwelskim / CHG w PIE, tyle, że CHG to Post-ANE, a ANE to Post-Gravettians, nie zapominając o oddzielnych Epigravettians, jak R1b z Villabruna, czyli Europa > Bajkał > Skałakaz > Europa > Góral > Załtaj > Zimalaje, itp.

Nikt nie wie, kto od kogo co zapożyczał i nie potrafi tego udowodnić, ale i tak naukowcy wymyślają się niestworzone historyjki, patrz np. tzw. glottochronologia i datowanie języków, itp. Problemem jest powszechna wiara w nielogiczne brednie i brak chęci do porównywania faktów.

(…) Zdecydowanie mają natomiast taki wpływ teorie kossinnowsko-godłowskie, szeroko i agresywnie promowane w czasach swojej świetności przez ich twórców i popleczników. (...)
Jak jednak widzimy po dyskusjach chociażby właśnie u Dawida czy na AG, w zbiorowej świadomości dnieprzańskie fantazje allochtonistów zdążyły się mocno utrwalić i silnie ugruntować. (...)


Wyznawcy powyższego, których nie będę z litości wymieniał, nie są zdolni do samodzielnego myślenia, więc nie można ich przekonać logicznymi dowodami i faktami. Nie mają wiedzy i argumentów. Umieją tylko wskazać na filmiki o Słowianach jeżdżących na dinozaurach.

Jedno słowo zamyka całą dyskusję – CWC, a szczególnie Fatianovo (wschodnie CWC). O czym tu więcej gadać?

(…) Kiedy więc tylko mam okazję, staram się prostować te głęboko zakorzenione poglądy, prezentując aktualny stan badań multidyscyplinarnych. I jak widzę, odnosi to skutek! Dlatego tak właśnie postrzegam sens prowadzenia dyskusji wokół tych zagadnień, czyli jako element edukacyjny. (…)

Mam zupełnie inne spostrzeżenia. Beton pozostaje betonem, ponieważ ma w tym interes. Dowodów na to jest co niemiara, patrz powyżej i we wcześniejszych wpisach tu. Nikt z allo-allo nie zgodzi się na odrzucenia 19 wiecznych dogmatów, ponieważ zostaliby z ręką w przepełnionej pickelhaubie.

Sławku, życzę Ci jednak powodzenia, w zwalczaniu powyższego. Na koniec mam dla Ciebie i dla innych taką zagadkę:

Co było pierwsze dźwięczne S, czy wtórnie ubezdźwięcznione H, patrz ἕν, εἷς, ἕξ ἑπτά, ὀκτώ, ἑκατόν..? :-)

Genos Historia said...

@Andrze,

That Stone henge man reconstruction is not based on DNA. It was made before we had any ancient DNA from Neolithic Britain. Its pigmentation is the imagination of the creator.

Neolithic Britain was "dark" like the rest of Neolithic, in fact darker than Barcin farmers. Western farmers were darker than eastern farmers.

Andrzejewski said...

@ambron “ We have yet to see a paper on Iron Age and early Medieval Polish DNA. A shame it takes so long to put it together! Personally I wouldn't have a problem if the Poles turned out to be autochthonous, I'd just be surprised. And I don't understand why it's so important to many Poles to be autochthonous. Many ethnic groups are not autochthonous, yet this doesn't make them feel bad.”

Polish ARE largely autochthonous, if by that word you mean a post-CWC continuity. We do have 20%-30% Germanic, however, but 70%-80% in situ is quite impressive.

Andrzejewski said...

Reading on Wikipedia that Funnelbeaker were 40%-50% WHG, with Scandinavia scoring up to 50%, on top of the WHG-rich Hungary BA population and the references to Tollensee Valley warrior having a almost 60%-70% WHG, makes me wonder how come most Europeans don’t have higher ratios of WHG nowadays, with this proportion peaking in Estonians at 28%. Ukrainians have an equal ratio of farmer and hunter at 25% each while Steppe makes up half their ancestry.

What factors reduced WHG across the continent post-IA era?

Andrzejewski said...

@Genos Where is your video about CHG? I couldn’t find it on your channel.

ambron said...

Dmytro, Ukraińcy są oczywiście autochtonami. Tyle tylko, że wcześniej nie wszyscy byli Słowianami. Słowianami byli mieszkańcy południowo-zachodniej Ukrainy, którzy rozprzestrzeniając się w kierunkach północno-wschodnich, asymilowali miejscowy substrat demograficzny, przede wszystkim bałtycki.

ambron said...

Simon, in the case of Poles, their alleged allochtonism was turned into a tool of political struggle, legitimizing the recovery of lands lost by the Germans.

At the moment, even without the results of Figlerowicz's team, we already have a sufficient number of studies confirming the biological continuity of the Polish population and the continuity of settlement of Polish lands between the Roman period and the Middle Ages.

Wee e said...

@Andrzevski
Partly, maybe…
Natural selection for skin colour varies with latitude — a definite phenomenon above about latitude 45. Sun exposure actually varies massively east-west, (patchwork over quite small areas) depending cloud cover, which should not be overlooked.
But it is not all about sun exposure anyway.

The HG in WHG meant that their diet supplied plenty of vitamin D, calcium and iron. It isn’t only UV exposure that is important to vit D — dietary calcium is essential in processing it and forming healthy bones. Iron is poor in grain and even dairy diet compared with HG diet.

I don’t know about further afield, but in the British Isles, neolithic farmers, especially the early & middle neolithic population here, seem to have more or less abandoned marine foods and also ate less meat than you’d think. Their bones commonly show dietary deficiencies such as iron deficiency.

The C282Y mutation involved in hæmachromatosis (Scotland & Ireland both have high incidence) may have also have been selected for because it retains iron in the body. (The thinking being that it may help if your diet is iron-deficient, but backfires when you have a diet with plenty of iron.)

Wee e said...

@Andrewzky
Oh — and Estonians — were they not rather slower at becoming dependent on agriculture? That would mean they were able to adopt a more extensive farming package than initially held in other parts of Europe — more choice in northerly-adapted crops and with sheep, goats, pigs, cattle all available. It would be interesting to know if they integrated HG habits like fishing, instead of making a wholesale switch.

Wee e said...

“Rhesus factor sounds like a curse not an adaption. Why do Basque have it?”
@Genos historia

Are you sure you’re asking the right question here? I just mean in terms of logic. Maybe Basques are Basques BECAUSE they have it.

That is, the children of rh+ incomers and Basque women would tend to suffer more from newborn haemolytic disease. It still causes miscarriages and is still potentially serious for the mother too.

(A relative and also a colleague of mine both became very debilitated by it. One carried to term and was really significantly unwell, even in the late 20th C. The other (a decade ago) lost the pregnancy early, the ghostly-ghastly look and extreme morning sickness from a very early stage was why she knew she was pregnant before anything else.) Even moderate morning sickness would have been hazardous in those times. Haemolytic disease would have had a far higher death rate amongst foetuses and newborns.

So 1. Rh+ incomers with offspring with poor survival rates
2. Locals sussing this out, even if in a vague way. Noticing that a higher incidence of women going with those new guys gets terrible morning sickness, more of them have miscarriages and more babies born jaundiced /sickly. People are not unobservant. They very well may have realised that a group of incomer males tended to bring with them bad pregnancies.
3. Added to the more conventional reasons why Basques and their non IE language exists — vagaries of migration routes and possible ie/non-ie language barrier.

Carlos Aramayo said...

Today's great news, that I was waiting for, and precisely from Alalakh, Turkey. They found a tablet, dated 1400 BC, in Akkadian cuneiform, which may give clues to the relationship with the Indo-Aryan kingdom of Mitanni.

They also found a cylinder seal , from about 1250 B.C. with the name of a Hittite prince hitherto unknown.

https://tinyurl.com/kwhsv8c8

Andrzejewski said...

@Carlos Aramayo “ Today's great news, that I was waiting for, and precisely from Alalakh, Turkey. They found a tablet, dated 1400 BC, in Akkadian cuneiform, which may give clues to the relationship with the Indo-Aryan kingdom of Mitanni.”

Growing up, I was fascinated with Old Testament stories. Not from a religious background or perspective, just the history of these Iron Age characters, it reminded me of medieval kingdoms, wars etc. As a teen, I learned that certain biblical nations were Indo-European speakers. It has been an interest of me ever since, thinking that the Hittite spoke a language similar to English and whether we could have understood their speech sans a translator.

On the same vein, I was attempting to figure our if Goliath looked like us, Europeans/Euro-Americans, and so on.

So these findings can hold a special interest to me.

For years I was vacillating between assuming that the Philistines were Greek to being Anatolian speakers. Now it seems more likely they were an Eastern Med mix of IE maritime invaders.

Carlos Aramayo said...

@Andrzejewski

"...As a teen, I learned that certain biblical nations were Indo-European speakers. It has been an interest of me ever since, thinking that the Hittite spoke a language similar to English and whether we could have understood their speech sans a translator..."

Yes, many of our current way of thinking is influenced by what we saw when we were young. My first interest was India, as an "alternative" culture and spirituality to Western World. So, in recent years I was taking a look to Hittites and their relationship to Mitanni, an Indo-Aryan related kingdom.

The Hittites mentioned in the Bible are evidently from sources written from the eighth to sixth century BCE. A very interesting Hittite character is Uriah, who maybe lived around nineth century BCE, but whose name is mentioned in a more recent text. The Hittites, in their most successful period were much earlier, before Southern Levant's Iron Age, before 1200 BCE, and before the Bible was written.

The tablet recently found in Alalakh, dated to 1400 BCE, could give a clue of the beginnings of Mitanni kingdom in Northern Syria and Southern Turkey, and I hope it can serve to "verify" or even widen the list of the kings of Mitanni in the region.

Thanks for sharing your interest.

Cy Tolliver said...

Interesting discussion upthread regarding Rhesus factor and the implications for uniparental/X discordance. I really think in general natural selection on uniparentals and X ancestry is a criminally understudied topic in this whole field. Most explanations seem to revolve around social factors like elite dominance and whatnot but I'm sure biological processes are just as important and probably even moreso the further back we go in time (pre-Neolithic, when societies were much smaller and not as developed). Maciamo on Eupedia had a post years ago onabout the possible role various mutations on the Y played in contributing to the spread of certain haplogroups but I would really like to see someone else carry that thread further.

Wee e said...

@Andrzejeweski
“Because, it seems blond hair doesn't exist outside of Europe at all.”

It does in Melanesians and some Australian aboriginals. And no, not from European influence or sun bleaching.

Vanuatu and the Solomon islands seem to have a fair amount of blonds (with dark skin), it isn’t rare. Like with a lot of Europeans, it is more common/brighter in colour with some people when young: some grow darker brown hair with age, some don’t. It also seems to be a bit more frequent in females than males.

As far as I know it is not the same allele as is involved as with Europeans. It developed independently.
Sorry this is so vague. That’s the level of my knowledge.

Wee e said...

@Genis, re red hair.
I did not know it was still rare when people arrived in these islands. But I can well believe it.

Redheads seem to come in two varieties in Scotland and Ireland (and according to Dutch friends, also in Netherlands): people with reasonably normal skin (sometimes a lot of freckles, other times ruddy cheeks) who may or may not burn easily, and people with really really white winter skin that just has to get a glimpse of sun to go lobster and start peeling.

This kind of skin in the west of Scotland can stay this white in a poor summer, so white that your veins in your wrists and hands show blue easily, and there is no colour variation around the arm. Then we suddenly get a proper summer and you’re toast. If you manage it carefully, you can tan as dark as anyone. In practice you spend half an hour in the sun and end up a peeling lobster. This is no exaggeration.

You also see this type is in families (which comprise 30-40% of total population) where several individuals carry the red gene but not obviously, usually in very dark head-hair. They too have this mix of skin types but not usually with much freckles.

When you think about where a lot of Scottish and Irish ancestry came from (immediately rather than ultimately) such people would surely have been quickly selected out. Even in massively cloudy west of Scotland, we have a high rate of skin cancer. Put us on England’s south coast, let alone France or Iberia, in an age where people spent a lot of time outdoors, and you’d start seeing a massive Darwinian winnowing out.

The 45 latitude line does really seem to draw that line hard, between actual redheads and a population that carries the gene but has relatively few actual gingers — like Spain. Although sun exposure also annual sun hours (or rather, very persistent cloud cover) can vary a lot east-west over a few tens of miles in the British Isles.

It would be interesting to know if some of those northern tribes that went down into Spain in the late/post Roman period had more redheads than their descendants. Although it probably isn’t possible to know with all the population movement since.

Wee e said...

@ Genos in the context if dna, red hair etc — my passport is British but genetically I’m mostly a recent mix of famine-years Irish and Scottish west highland (Clearances). Which is basically I suppose the same gene pool.

Davidski said...

@Anyone

I haven't had a chance yet to look at the new Iberian paper. Are the genotypes available anywhere?

Alkabir said...

@Genos Historia
"The oldest verified redhead, is Bell Beaker Hungary I2787, who was 75% Kurgan. R1b Z2103."
There's another redhead, I1730 from Jordan EBA, who is roughly contemporary with I2787.

EastPole said...

New talks by Anthony, Mallory etc:

-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe6Q2fSaBZI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXYh99pYu7w

I have not listened to all of it because they seem to repeat old stories, and I am no longer interested in Western European or American theories. They have very limited knowledge about Eastern Europeans.
I agree that we should combine genetics, archeology, linguistics and comparative mythology to get a better theory of PIE, but we should focus more on Eastern Europeans not Western Europeans or Anatolians.
I am getting fantastic results just comparing Slavic, Vedic and Orphic mythologies. And it fits with genetics, archeology and linguistics quite well. I am waiting for Nitra paper for final proof.

Davidski said...

I've lost interest in anything David Anthony has to say.

Andrzejewski said...

@Davidski “ I've lost interest in anything David Anthony has to say”

That’s pretty much where I’m at right now

Cy Tolliver said...

@David

You've mentioned on and off in the past you've been looking at creating a new tool to replace G25. Any update on that? Were you looking at sticking with something PCA-based like G25 or something totally different?

EastPole said...

Here at 1:21:06 Anthony starts talking about CWC. According to him steppe people went to Poland but didn’t take steppe horses, and didn’t take steppe dogs. They took local horsed and local dogs adjusted to North European environment:

https://youtu.be/pe6Q2fSaBZI?t=4866

According to Volker Heyd Yamnaya is not responsible for the transmission of steppe ancestry outside steppe. CWC is responsible and CWC is not descended from Yamnaya but comes from the forest steppe.

Some R1a CWC tribes from Poland then moved East, and formed Sintashta-Petrovka culture; some moved South to Carpathian Basin and formed Otomani-Füzesabony culture. Trzciniec-Komarów culture was formed by those who stayed in Poland. I think following Sintashta-Petrovka, Trzciniec-Komarów, Otomani-Füzesabony culture and later were closely related. When Sintashta got DOM2 steppe horses they were spread to Poland and Hungary, and from there to Greece and Scandinavia:

https://i.postimg.cc/sDZrbzPy/screenshot-135.png

https://www.academia.edu/50042820/Chariots_and_Horses_in_the_Carpathian_Lands_During_the_Bronze_Age

So this explains links between Slavic, Vedic and Orphic religions. And this root CWC religion from which Slavic, Vedic and Orphic religions originated was PIE religion. I don’t think we have any solid evidence for other PIE religions and I don’t think we know what the Yamnaya religion was.

Matt said...

Looks like there was an open Zoom lecture on upcoming paper by Ghalichi, two weeks ago - https://www.cepam.cnrs.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/ARWA-Caucasus-Lectures-1.pdf

Not two days after this post first published by Davidski. Shame that no-one went I guess. Hopefully out soon enough.

Matt said...

This is the ARWA's Youtube channel on their Caucasus lectures series - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLY1etG1YRYNLKjR_CLU-I5EoiDV22soIT

Maybe they will upload the Haak and Ghalichi lecture, though I doubt it given some of the past situations where researchers request no uploads.

Matt said...

I couldn't find any genotypes for the Iberian paper, hope someone can, but this poster might be interesting to people who are interested in Spain: https://www.academia.edu/61630332/Late_Roman_tombs_at_Sanxo_Llop_Gandia_Valencia_exogamy_and_kinship_in_a_particular_funerary_structure

"Late Roman tombs at Sanxo Llop (Gandia, Valencia): exogamy and kinship in a particular funerary structure" - "INTRODUCTION: Sanxo Llop is a necropolis from Late Antiquity excavated on the banks of river Serpis in Gandia (Fig. 1C). Among the burials, samples GOG34 and GOG35 appeared in a peculiar double sepulchre in a silo (Fig. 1A).The burial is radiocarbon dated to the 660-760AD period. Preservation of aDNA in both petrous bones was good (12-18%), and thegenomes were sequenced tocoverages of 0.26X and 0.36X respectively."

"Standard analyses like ADMIXTURE and PCA revealed that both individuals display a significant amount of North African genomic ancestry at a time predating the Islamic conquest.However uniparental markers did not hint in this direction. As it can be seen in the ADMIXTURE plot (Fig. 4), the father carries twice as much North African ancestry (around 10%) as the daughter (around 5%). This may be taken as an indication that the unknown mother did not contribute any North African ancestry to the daughter, which in turn suggests genetic heterogeneity in the post-Roman population of Mediterranean Iberia. This becomes obvious looking at the PCA because of the amount of other Roman individuals plotting in a no man’s land between Europeans and North Africans (Fig. 3). Furthermore, simulations allow for the possibility that the mother was of Italian or Sardinian descent."

Genos Historia said...

@Derbi_554

"There's another redhead, I1730 from Jordan EBA, who is roughly contemporary with I2787."

Unless Geneticker confirmed this, I wouldn't be confident of it.

False positive calls for redhair MC1R SNPs are common.

Genos Historia said...

Did geneticker do the analysis of I1730 from Jordan EBA,?

Anonymous said...

@Wee
Here in Brazil, we see many people who are mixed blacks and who have blonde/light brown hair. In general, when this happens, the person always has a lighter skin tone compared to the average mixed Brazilian. It gives me the impression that the same genes that affect hair also partially affect the skin.

Genos Historia said...

@Mary,

It is somewhat common for mixed Black (African), White people in USA to have light colored hair. I would describe it as grey colored. Steph Curry is an example.

Yes, it has been proven many times in DNA studies skin, hair, eye color genes are all interconnected.

The blue eye gene is one of the leading causes of light skin color. The light skin genes are needed to make blonde hair possible.

I know first hand in USA, European pigmentation genes interact differently with African ones than with "Brown" Asian & Ameridian genes.

It seems European pigmentation genes are dominate when mixed with African ones. Mixed African, European people usually have white skin. It is not uncommon for them to have "grey", blondish hair.

While, Brown Asian & Ameridian genes, seem to be dominate and put European descendant people back into their ancestral form. At least that what appears to be happening to me.

Andrzejewski said...

@Genos Historia “ While, Brown Asian & Ameridian genes, seem to be dominate and put European descendant people back into their ancestral form. At least that what appears to be happening to me.”

I didn’t know you were mixed race. You looked a Celto-Germanic Heinz 57 “white” Yamnaya-descendant American from what I saw in your vid narration.

Tom said...

@ Genos Historia

Of course you don't need blue eyes in order for blondism to occur. It just increases the likelihood of it, at least for west eurasians. Look at the dark skinned brown eyed melanesians for an example of blondism without blue eyes or light skin.

The phenotype predictions in the new spanish paper look legit. I can check some of them manually later. Some other ancient redheads spotted by genetiker include a romanian iron gates HG & one of the stora forvar scandinavian HG samples. Another is spiginas 2 from lithuanian CW. Pops like jordan EBA and Levant_ChL also had some redheads in their papers and they had rs1426654 in SLC24A5 fixed. Can you give some examples of papers with false positive predictions for red hair?

Andrzejewski said...

Happy TG @Genos.

Still waiting for that CHG vid ;)

Dranoel said...

@Ambron, @SKRiBHa

Some people may be misled by certain statements.
I believe that saying that Poles in Poland are indigenous is wrong, because it already indicates a given population and specific geographic boundaries in advance.

Secondly, everyone probably realizes that Poland is in a very specific place, at the meeting point of many cultures, influences and events. Maybe most of the people who live here are indeed from the old local population (that's why most are R1a), but we can't generalize everything.

In the Bronze Age, as well as the Iron Age, etc., Eastern and Western Poland was subject to different influences and was subject to different cultural units. Even if the territory of eastern Poland was part of the cradle of the Slavs, it does not mean that in the west it was the same. Even the Lusatian culture should not be treated as "one entity" because it was evidently made up of other groups in the west and east.

It was the area of ​​contact between the Germanic and Slavic cultures. As it happens at borders, everyone would like to "push" the truth to their advantage. Ancient writers already write about these divisions. They see here not only Germanans and Slavs, but also Sarmatians and Balts. This is the atmosphere we have here :)

After the period of migration, the territory of Poland was not deserted? Truth.
Currently, Poland is a Slavic country? Truth.
Does the medieval and Iron Age populations create continuity? Maybe yes.

BUT this does not prove that from the dawn of history the area from the Oder to the Bug was Slavic. Certainly some of the people who identified with the Germanic culture stayed in place, and with time adopted the Slavic culture. So part of today's Poland has become Slavic, and before that it was Germanic.

Over the centuries, especially in prehistory, eastern and western Poland were two different worlds. The same is true of northern and southern Poland.

Political and fanatic "research" such as those of Kossina and Kostrzewski often do more harm than good. But be careful not to start resembling them with your statements. Reading some of the statements, you can see that they represent strongly orthodox views. Nothing is ever obvious, much less the story.

I emphasize once again - I do not write that Poland is NOT the birthplace of the Slavs. I just want to emphasize that NOT ALL CURRENT POLAND was Slavic from the very beginning.

Andrzejewski said...

@Tom “ Of course you don't need blue eyes in order for blondism to occur.”

Yes. Just look at Cheddar Man.

Matt said...

A set of the abstracts for the conference from which the above Iberia poster I mentioned came is here : https://www.academia.edu/56776359/The_Via_Ostiensis_necropolis_in_Rome_endurance_change_and_a_complex_transition_to_the_paleochristian_funerary_world_Marina_Marcelli_Lloren%C3%A7_Alapont_Martin_Magdalena_Sastre_Morro_P%C3%A8re_Correderor_Peinado_Sarah_F_Evans_Chiara_Cicone

An adna bit that may interest some:

"The late-antique funerary complex of Ittenheim (Alsace, Bas-Rhin). Re-reading of archaeo-anthropological data at the dawn of genomics"

"The Ittenheim site "Lotissement du stade" (Alsace, Bas-Rhin) delivered a small Late Antiquity community burial complex consisting of 23 burials, occupied over a short period of time from AD 350 to 430-450. (Cartier Et al. 2007). It is confined within a small space of 225 m² (15 metres long by 15 metres wide) and bordered by a double ditch forming an angle at the level of the burials, thus spatially delimiting it to the north and east. The funerary ensemble seems to be organised in small groups of tombs separated by empty areas and a few loosely arranged graves. Four main orientations are respected, within which the tombs seem to be structured by forming alignments. The buried population is composed of 15 adult individuals, of which seven women and seven men (one individual remains of undetermined sex), and eight immature individuals. A study of the age and sex composition of the population showed that the mortality profile was compatible with that of natural mortality, with the exception of the total absence of individuals under one year of age. The way in which burials are laid out in small groups of graves raises questions about the type of recruitment that can be carried out within each grouping. An initial analysis of the composition of the four groups defined above revealed that they were made up of both adult (male and female) and immature individuals. Moreover, one of these groups differed in the quality and quantity of the furniture deposited. These observations therefore led us to consider the existence of family-type groupings and thus possible kinship ties (biological or social) between these different individuals. In order to verify these working hypotheses, a palaeogenomic study was carried out over the entire necropolis. Thanks to the excellent preservation of DNA on this site, it was possible to obtain the complete genome with low coverage of more than 90% of the individuals. These results enabled us to find family links between individuals within the different groups and partially confirm the hypotheses of family regroupings established by the archaeological studies. However, these analyses also raised new questions, particularly about the origin of these individuals."
.

Matt said...

Also from same conference ("DEATH AND THE SOCIETIES OF LATE ANTIQUITY"):

" Stones, bones, babies and DNA. The case of the peculiar funerary ritual from the Peltuinum theater (Late Antiquity, Italy)" - Mittnik and others

"Peltuinum was a Roman town in the central Apennines, situated on a plateau which was used since pre-Roman times as a strategic resting stop for flocks of sheep moving from central Italy (Sabina) to North Apulia. The city was founded in the middle of the first century B.C. precisely to manage and control transhumance revenues and was abandoned in Late Antiquity, when a sequence of violent earthquakes struck the city. Then, public buildings started being dismantled, serving as quarries of building materials for churches, forts and new nearby small towns. The theatre of the city, among other structures, has been partially preserved. Recent excavations of the building led to the discovery of thousands of commingled human and faunal bones inside 5 of the 7 shafts used to operate the stage’s curtain (the remaining two were probably emptied in the past). The osteological analyses led to the assessment of 87 human fetuses and newborns associated with the remains of 68 dogs and dozens of other domestic animals, such as horses. In contrast to the humans, the dogs can be attributed to all age classes, and there is at least one clear evidence of the intentional killing of an adult dog. In order to better understand the funerary choices and behaviours of the burying community, we carried out an aDNA analysis on 44 petrous bones of the infants. We obtained excellent DNA preservation for all individuals. The results indicate a non-significant difference in the number of buried males and females. We detect the presence of 4 pairs of siblings and 6 larger family groups. Related individuals are not gathered together within shafts, suggesting a time-spaced use that prioritized convenience over biological kinship. The genetic ancestry of the buried individuals is heterogeneous and consistent with that of Central Italy in the Roman Imperial period and Late Antiquity, indicating that the community was not isolated and instead well-connected within the cosmopolitan Roman population landscape. We find evidence of sporadic consanguinity within the community, as one of the neonates was the probable offspring of 2nd degree cousins. Finally, we discover that Trisomy 21 was the possible cause of pre-term death for one of the individuals. The integration of different sources of evidence concurs in qualifying Peltuinum as an atypical burial site with an atypical funerary ritual. The community and family groups elected the defunct theater, whose ruins still represented a visual landmark, for subsequent and time-spaced depositions of infants who died at birth, accompanied by the sacrifice of domestic animals, with a clear funerary role of the dogs (and possibly of the horses)."


(1/44 burials as second-cousin offspring. No first-cousin offspring. Confirms consanguinity, and particular rareness of first-cousin consanguinity. More than had been expected by some for pre-Christian period.)

SKRiBHa said...

@Dranoel

Do I recognise you well? Is it not you who recently posted here a charming video about Slavs riding dinosaurs as an ‘argument’ against my evidence?

If that is you, then you were supposed to ignore me… :-) LOL

Rob said...

Maybe archaic Balto-Slavs developed across central-eastern Poland, but there have been too many cultural & demographic shifts to entertain a continuity narrative.

ambron said...

Dranoel, I agree with most of your statements. Most often, however, on the occasion of similar discussions, I say this: one is a autochton, regardless of the language you speak and what kind of pots you make.

The biological sciences cannot settle the ethnolinguistic questions. These sciences, however, show the biological continuity of the Polish population and the continuity of the settlement of Polish lands.

Of course, not all the ancestors of Poles were Slavs. For example, many ancestors of Poles from the Iron Age were Scandinavians, as demonstrated by genetics based on anatomical markers and genetics based on molecular markers.

ambron said...

MH 82

The biological continuity of the Polish population and the continuity of the settlement of Polish lands is not a narrative, but a scientifically proven fact.

Matt said...

In absence of being able to check out with genotypes and G25, here is the data from the supplementary materials of the Iberia paper, comparing the f4 shift on Yamnaya:AnatoliaN against time, for their individuals with reported data and SNPs>50,000: https://imgur.com/a/8yQQ3ZO

A lot of them are bunched as they aren't directly RC dated, but placing a spline over the data does show, A) likely to be a a relatively fast shift in the era of 4400-4000 YBP (2400-2000 BCE), and also B) a further minor shift towards more steppe ancestry / otherwise more Yamnaya affinity in the MBA-LBA period after 3400 YBP (1400 BCE), although this might be complicated by where the samples were taken from.

For second minor shift, since the y-dna doesn't change to the resolution of R1b-P312, possibly this was mediated by women, although the individual samples don't show much preference.

SKRiBHa said...

@EastPole
(…) I have not listened to all of it because they seem to repeat old stories, and I am no longer interested in Western European or American theories. They have very limited knowledge about Eastern Europeans. (…)

100%. Anthony, Kristiansen, Reich and others have been only confirming the sad fact that modern progressive science has mocked logic since its foundation, see:

https://youtu.be/kyWFpsAnVuI
Public Schools, the Fixation of Belief, and Social Control

They will never admit they have been wrong. They will just keep smiling sheepishly...

Rob said...

OT: been having further look at the question of ANS/ANE. There's no real Onge or anything southeast Asian in it (hardly surprising)

I was also pointed to a funny thread on Anthrogenica, about IE being 'east Eurasian'
Obviously it's a comical distortion by an unknowlegable & biased poster.

But there are also some claims being by some of the ''Anthrogenica officianados'' about populations like Tianyuan deriving from the south to north.
I maintain that's a dubious claim in light of archaeology & what the phylogeny of early Siberian & northeast Asian Pops shows us (despite the inferred claims of differential Denisovan introgression).

Davidski said...

That thread at Anthrogenica about IE from the east just looks like vAsiSTha trolling his ass off.

That boy needs to get a hobby or something.

Tigran said...

I mean the thread at anthrogenica is just the consequence of most people accepting an ultimate East Eurasian origin for K2b/P (just many think Northeast not Southeast eurasians). I mean I don't personally think that is a done case. K2b/P are both 40,000 years old and if yfull does indeed underestimate by 10-20% potentially even 44000-50000 years old. I believe even Tianyuan was younger than the TMRCA of both K2b and P so that shouldn't be used as evidence for K2b/P being ENA.

Davidski said...

Southeast Asia for K2b/P is about as insane as India for PIE.

I can't really see Northeast Asia being relevant either.

These are all places where diversity accumulated at different times, after rapid expansions from somewhere in the west.

vAsiSTha said...

"That thread at Anthrogenica about IE from the east just looks like vAsiSTha trolling his ass off."

Not my thread. I just made a few posts there before I got banned

Rob said...

@ Tigran

'I mean the thread at anthrogenica is just the consequence of most people accepting an ultimate East Eurasian origin for K2b/P (just many think Northeast not Southeast eurasians).''


Its not even sophistry, but sheer nonsense

vAsiSTha said...

Well IE has nothing to do with east Eurasian ancestry. It arose in a west + east Eurasian mixed pop

Rob said...

@ vasishta

“ It arose in a west + east Eurasian mixed pop”

No, PIE emerged in east Central Europe , among European hunter gatherers in close contact with European farmers
Anything else is twisting or outright fabrication of history
East eurasians, AASI or even paleosiberians have nothing to do with it

Andrzejewski said...

@Rob “ No, PIE emerged in east Central Europe , among European hunter gatherers in close contact with European farmers
Anything else is twisting or outright fabrication of history
East eurasians, AASI or even paleosiberians have nothing to do with it”

PIE arose among Eastern European PASTORALISTS. WSH.

Andrzejewski said...

WSH pastoralists.

Seems like Hittite has cognates to “eat” and “water” and Tocharian has cognates to “father”, so there must’ve been some Pre-Proto-PIE before CWC with some nuclear basic vocabulary.

EastPole said...

@MH_82
„PIE emerged in east Central Europe , among European hunter gatherers in close contact with European farmers”

Exactly. This is what I am thinking. The question is how much of PIE language and culture came from HG and how much from farmers.
In Slavic religion and language, which are as close to PIE as you can get, because Slavs never left PIE homeland, there is an interesting duality, gods are androgynous, male and female (the same in Orphic and traces of it in Vedic), there are many words with different roots which mean the same etc.

Rob said...

@ Andrze

'' PIE arose among Eastern European PASTORALISTS. WSH.”''


Those pastoralists were originally hunter-gatherers which lived in 'hither eastern Europe', Ukr HG, EHG types with 30-50% levels of WHG. In geopolitical & historiographical contexts, the region is often considered to be within east central Europe. Those HG had been moving about since the Ice Age, hunting animals & gathering flint for their tools. So they knew the region very well, moving from as far as northern Italy to Russia and/or vicerversa, although as the Holocene progressed, they had started becoming more regionalised and sedentary.

From 6000 BC, new waves of HG moved toward the steppe/forest-steppe, although the preceding Mesolithic population remained in place. These included WHG-rich-er groups to the west, CHG from the south and WSHG from the East. These all contributed to a ''pre-Neolithicization'' of the steppe. Whilst the latter two brought new ideas about flint tools and pottery, the WHG brought ideas, goods and domestic animals from north Balkan/ Carpathian farmers.
Over the centuries, the initial exposure made some steppe HGs groups to evolve from episodically gaining cattle or goats as gifts for ceremonies and feasts, into something which they came to own, herd and exploit. This obviously imparted profound changes within these societies, as their social fabric fundamentally changed. This process was so beneficial to broader region that Meshoko groups started coming over the Caucasus mountains to gain access to the exchange networks.
However, after 4500 bce some catastrophe caused a collapse of Varna. This re-oriented steppe dynamics, and one result appears to have been a genetic homogenization of steppe groups and a significant rise in EHG/ CHG from a GW perspective.
Most people are aware of the lineages which expanded after 4000 bc from the steppe - I-L699, R1a-M417, R1b-M269, but perhaps not all are aware that their earliest haunts were probably in the region between Poland & Ukraine. Im neither Polish nor Ukrainian, but this is where there evidence is pointing

vAsiSTha said...

"No, PIE emerged in east Central Europe , among European hunter gatherers in close contact with European farmers"

definitely not. but even EHG is west + east eurasian mixed.

Andrzejewski said...

@EastPole “ Exactly. This is what I am thinking. The question is how much of PIE language and culture came from HG and how much from farmers.”

None came from neither. PIE or “Indo-Slavic” as you call it, which @Genos Historia and myself had suspected was the language spoken by Corded Ware, not Yamnaya, was a language isolate, just like Sumerian or Elamite were. Or the Ainu language is considered among “modern day” ones. It was surrounded by GAC to its west, Combed Ceramic EHG and Volosovo EHG to its East and Northeast (later to be destroyed by Fatnayevo) , Tripolye Balkanic Barcin derived Tripolye to its Southwest (to be destroyed by Yamnaya Bulgaria and Yamnaya Hungary), TRB to its NorthWest (which were maybe 50%-70% Farmers from Cardial Pottery + 50% WHG of various clans and ethnicities).

WSH of various stripes had common words mutually intelligible for “father” (shared with Tocharian), “water” and “eat” - shared with Anatolian branch of the novosovordnilova Yamnaya Balkanic migration route. These words who are almost identical in sound to both English and Polish show that Afanasievo, Yamnaya, Sredny Stog and CWC, and maybe even Progress, Khvalynsk and Samara - spoke a similar phelum.

All the theories that Anthony ascribed to PIE constituting an EHG language can go with his other theories, with which i metaphorically lit my BBQ to roast the TG turkey.

Andrzejewski said...

@EastPole “ In Slavic religion and language, which are as close to PIE as you can get, because Slavs never left PIE homeland”

But they did! The CWC from western Ukraine forest zone moved westbound to Poland and Germany, wiped out GAC males and married GAC females. Subsequently, their mixed blooded offsprings back-migrated into the PIE homeland

Andrzejewski said...

@Rob “
Those pastoralists were originally hunter-gatherers which lived in 'hither eastern Europe', Ukr HG, EHG types with 30-50% levels of WHG.”

Historically and scientifically inaccurate.

Sredny Stog and late CWC had about 20% European Farmer EEF admixture on top of the 80% WSH (EHG + CHG) combo.

Their WHG ratio was 2%-5%.

Their potter wheel, domestic animals and other innovations and adaptations that they adopted used to be thought to have come via Maykop, but now indeed are acknowledged to have arrived from Tripolye and perhaps also GAC and/or TRB agriculturalists or agripastoralists.

But these were not WHG societies.

ambron said...

What Rob wrote refers to Mario Alinei's Palaeolithic continuation of Indo-European languages theory:

http://www.continuitas.org/intro.html

Tigran said...

@Davidski

Agree on K2b/P coming from the west. I mean what really matters though is whether that population in the west was East Eurasian, West Eurasian or something basal to both like Zlaty Kun. Which we won't really know imo without more data.

Rob said...

@ Andrze

Mate you’re not only profoundly ignorant; you’re adamant to remain so when intelligent people speak to you
Stick to your bible studies and don’t miscorrect others , lest you confuse everyone with your stupidity

Rob said...

@ ambron

“What Rob wrote refers to Mario Alinei's Palaeolithic continuation of Indo-European languages theory:”

You’re the continuity enthusiast, not me
Whilst I do think the main substrate is from the Late Paleo, I certainly don’t think PIE is 25000 years old
I instead outlined a very dynamic process.

Rob said...

Vasistha Iran model is even more of a joke than Andrzejewski Ameri-Tard bible CHG model

Genos Historia said...

@Rob,

Nothing you said is backed by evidence. So please cut out the snobby attitude.

Rob said...

@ Vasistha

''but even EHG is west + east eurasian mixed.''


This is an imagination that you & the little fellas from anthrogenica share. But in reality, ANE is U.P East European + Siberian; & EHG is that + central-western European.
Despite your mental gymnastics, ANE & EHG dont have any real east Eurasian ancestry, nor AASI, nor Onge. None of their ancestry derives from those region. In fact, EHG developed in eastern Europe 25,000 BC

Rob said...

@ Sam/ bullshit American YouTuber

I’m 100% accurate .
The arrogance actually lies with you; as you think you can correct me when you have zero understanding of anything even after all these years

Andrzejewski said...

@Rob “ Vasistha Iran model is even more of a joke than Andrzejewski Ameri-Tard bible CHG model”

I didn’t know that CHG were mentioned in the bible.

Andrzejewski said...

@MH_82 “ In fact, EHG developed in eastern Europe 25,000 BC”

Hogwash! In Rob’s bible, EHG is 3Ky older than MA1…

If Mal’ta Boy is 24,000 year old by Lake Baikal, then how come would EHG be 27,000 years ago in EE?

Rob said...

@ Sam / bullshit YouTuber


“ Nothing you said is backed by evidence. So please cut out the snobby attitude.”

It’s 100% backed by evidence
The fact that you don’t understand reflects your own inability to analyse data; even when it is digested in simple terms for you
Hence, the arrogance lies with you, because you believe some fake American like you is in position to educate a genuine scholar of Europe & the world

Andrzejewski said...

@Rob “ The arrogance actually lies with you; as you think you can correct me when you have zero understanding of anything even after all these years”

I’m actually waiting on him to post his CHG vid to put you to shame :)

Rob said...

@ Andrze

“ If Mal’ta Boy is 24,000 year old by Lake Baikal, then how come would EHG be 27,000 years ago in EE?”

Afontova Gora type archaeological sites are found west of the Urals, C14 dates to 23,000 calBp
EE and west Siberia were in close contact during the Palaeolithic

To repeat; the deficiency lies with yours and Genos’ capacity; not my observation of facts

Andrzejewski said...

@Rob “ Hence, the arrogance lies with you, because you believe some fake American like you is in position to educate a genuine scholar of Europe & the world”

Got nothing to do with us being American.

It’s got to do with studying genetic history

Andrzejewski said...

@MH_82 “ I don’t want to be harsh to you and Sam; but you’re calling for it , and sometimes you need a reality check
You’re both a couple of slices short of a loaf. And that’s ok ; but your misplaced arrogance is what is out of line
You need to stop talking”

I used to think that you’re smart but misguided. Now I realize how racist you are.

Your anti-Americanism blinds your judgment

Rob said...

@ Andrze

“ Got nothing to do with us being American.

It’s got to do with studying genetics”


But you’re not a scholar & you don’t understand anything
You conflate your theology with history. This combination of daft arrogance you & Sam share is underpinned as a product of your country’s culture and education system

Andrzejewski said...

Waiting for the next paper to come out, authored by Rob, Anthony and Reich.

Rob said...

@ Andrze

''I used to think that you’re smart but misguided. Now I realize how racist you are.
Your anti-Americanism blinds your judgment''

America is irrelevant to this prehistory. But people like you & Sam are pathognomonic of its culture & ideology.
lets get facts straight - your country is the biggest terrorist and killer on this planet.
It is you who is you and Sam who are obsessed with eye colour, skin colour, pojecting the Bible , talk of 'manifest destiny', & the Europeans are esentially native to America. it You see, you are the racist ones. My abbhorence is justified.
Against my better judgement, i tried to explain things in such a asimple way that even dumbfucks like you can understand, but you wish to pursue the path of stupidty. Your not my enemy, becuase you're nothing





Genos Historia said...

@Rob,

You seem to be an Eastern European who hates America and thinks anytime an American has an opinion on anything they are being chauvinistic and don't respect other perspectives.

In other words, you're 'racist' towards Americans.

Andrzejewski said...

@Genos Historia “ You seem to be an Eastern European who hates America and thinks anytime an American has an opinion on anything they are being chauvinistic and don't respect other perspectives.

In other words, you're 'racist' towards Americans.”

He’s a Macedonian-Australian who hates Americans.

The only American here whom I disagree with is David Anthony and his fairy tales.

Rob is a Paleolithic Continuity theorist.

WHG are 25% of our dna the most.

Corded Ware Culture is our ancestral formative culture.

EastPole said...

@Genos Historia

„You seem to be an Eastern European who hates America and thinks anytime an American has an opinion on anything they are being chauvinistic and don't respect other perspectives.

In other words, you're 'racist' towards Americans.”

America is a racist country, no doubt about it. You have inherited Germanic racism towards Slavic people. It is not only Germanic Americans who are racists, Black Americans are racists, Jewish Americans are racists, Indian Americans are racists. American culture is racist.
I can give you many examples.
I have seen many discussions about Hitler among Black Americans. They will tell you Hitler killed 3 mln Jews, 100000 Gypsies, 10000 homosexuals. They will never tell you that Germans killed 23 mln Slavic people, that WWII was against Slavic people, that Germans wanted our land, Poland, Ukraine, for Lebensraum, and wanted to exterminate Slavic people. Black Americans will not tell you that, because they don’t know it? They are not thought about it? Or maybe they are happy that Hitler killed 23 mln Slavs whom they consider white people. The same with Jewish people. Very ugly, racist “Polish jokes” or lies can be said in public by Jews, and nothing happens, everybody is happy.

Ric Hern said...

@ MH_82

"Afontova Gora type archaeological sites are found west of the Urals, C14 dates to 23,000 calBp"

Very interesting. Can you please share the name or location of these sites ?

Andrzejewski said...

@East Pole “ America is a racist country, no doubt about it. You have inherited Germanic racism towards Slavic people. It is not only Germanic Americans who are racists, Black Americans are racists, Jewish Americans are racists, Indian Americans are racists. American culture is racist.”

The only hate which is tolerated in America is anti-Whitism. Descendants of Indo-European are treated like trash in this country by any non-WASP minority. Straight White Male is considered a cuss word. White Anglo-Saxon Protestants as well as Mayflower descendants are the scapegoats, especially since Mr. 46 has become the President.

Thanksgiving is now considered by Beringian-Americans as “Native American Holocaust day” while “Columbus day” is now celebrated (or mourned) as Native American Day. Sad but true.

Andrzejewski said...

@East Pole and other people of fellow Polish heritage:

I’m an American of full Polska ancestry. Anti-Slavic is more of a historical European rather than American bias. Germanic people initiated the Drang nach Osten in the 1200s AD onward by the Teutonic Knights, and that extermination policy towards Balto-Slavic ethnicities continued throughout the 1600s with the extermination of the original Prussians, and culminating during WWII with Hitler’s seeking after a Lebensraum on the expense of Slavic peoples, who were considered only one notch above the Jews at the bottom rung.

It was unfortunate what the German did to Poland’s 3M Jewish citizens; however, Poles had nothing to do with it. The number and percentage of poles who risks their lives to save Jews was higher than almost any other country in Europe.

In America I’m considered “White” by any other white and non-White American. OTOH this is not the case in Europe, where for example in the UK, the fear of unfettered Polish migration helped drive Brexit over the finish line.

Andrzejewski said...

@MH_82 “ When your country produces some intelligence & morality; I might change my opinion”

Please give this poor guy a break. This is an ad-hominem attack on his person. I may disagree a lot with him but you can’t deny that his heart and mind are in the right place.

And our country has some of the best higher education institutions in the world. Have you heard about Ivy League universities?

Andrzejewski said...

Anti-Slavicism is prevalent among non-Slavic Europeans, and it was not just Germanic people who practiced it. The entire Western attitude towards the USSR was partially affected by anti-Slavicism.

Polish people saved Vienna from the Turks in 1681. Sobieski and Pułaski were a major reason why Washington’s army prevailed against the Red Coats. And in 1920, it was us Poles who prevented Stalin from taking over Eastern Europe. Most recently it was Lech Walęsa who was a major force of standing up to communism and bringing down the iron curtain in Soviet satellite states of Central and Eastern Europe.

vAsiSTha said...

"Vasistha Iran model is even more of a joke..."

Max Planck guys obviously think Iran model is correct, even though mine is more eastern..

Harvard guys will soon come around. As it is they have been so far non commital on the chg/iran issue.

Your ehg = pie theory is the biggest joke I've heard since on this blog.

Rob said...

@ Ric

Of course .

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/251692238_The_Paleolithic_of_northeastern_Europe

+

“ Geo-archaeological investigations of Palaeolithic sites along the Ural
Mountains e On the northern presence of humans during the last Ice Age“

Andrzejewski said...

@Vasistha “ Your ehg = pie theory is the biggest joke I've heard since on this blog.”

Yes. I disagree with almost anything else you say, especially with your Iran model. Lazaridis said something in 2016 to the effect that the West Asian component in Yamnaya may’ve come from South of Caspian rather than from the Caucasus mountains. He since then recanted, I believe.

It was Anthony in 2019 who said that PIE was an EHG language. He added that EHG and WHG males married CHG and EEF females. But like anything else he says, it’s been debunked and disproved. IMHO PIE was a dialect that was spoken by Sredny Stog and related neighboring groups, with Yamnaya, Afanasievo and the ancestors of the Hittites, Tocharians and Armenians speaking related para-languages. All of them were WSH with more or less identical admixture elements, and the PIE language was pretty much a language isolate which branched off. All languages except for Greek, Anatolian, Armenian, Phrygian, Thracian and Tocharian were direct Corded Ware culture descendants.

Ric Hern said...

@ MH_82

Thank you.

Rob said...

@ vasistha

I’m open minded. But I would struggle to explain how Mesolithic females from the Caucasus brought protoIE from Iran, at which point the earliest IE (Anatolian) jumped to western -central Anatolia; all deep vestiges became erased in SCA/ Turan; leaving only an east European daughter branch in the form of indo-Iranian
Any ideas ?

vAsiSTha said...

When's the lower steppe paper supposed to be out?

Rob said...

@ Andrze

''He added that EHG and WHG males married CHG and EEF females. But like anything else he says, it’s been debunked and disproved''

This is 100% correct. Every study affirms this basic premise.

You use words like 'Sredni Stog', 'pastoralists'', etc without having a clue of what they mean. The idea that hunter-gatherers can become herders appears to have caused a short-circuit in your neural pathways. You are constantly misrepresenting facts and refuse to be corrected.
Of course, this is not helped by an additional layer of buffoonery from Sam.

Davidski said...

@All

Thanks for the very robust discussion.

However, please note that a lot of people read these comments, and they even have them sent to their email.

Thus, anything you say here goes on the record permanently, so try not to make fools of yourselves.

epoch said...

@Andrzejewski

The original Prussians weren't exterminated by the 1600's. They just became German speakers after that time. The bible was translated into Prussian for a reason.

vAsiSTha said...

@mh_82

jeitun culture, mehrgarh culture were already neolithic cultures by 5th mil bce.. they weren't mesolithic.

They had already domesticated animals. All in, they were extremely technologically advanced for that age.

"Early Mehrgarh residents lived in mud brick houses, stored their grain in granaries, fashioned tools with local copper ore, and lined their large basket containers with bitumen. They cultivated six-row barley, einkorn and emmer wheat, jujubes and dates, and herded sheep, goats and cattle. Residents of the later period (5500 BCE to 2600 BCE) put much effort into crafts, including flint knapping, tanning, bead production, and metal working.[48] Mehrgarh is probably the earliest known center of agriculture in South Asia."

"The oldest known example of the lost-wax technique comes from a 6,000-year-old wheel-shaped copper amulet found at Mehrgarh. The amulet was made from unalloyed copper, an unusual innovation that was later abandoned"

vAsiSTha said...

FYI the 6000yr old Mehrgarh copper amulet had spokes

ambron said...

The PIE theory as a WHG language has a clear mark in genetics. The most archaic Indo-European languages are the Balto-Slavic dialects. And the most characteristic genetic marker of the Balto-Slavs is a specific component of the WHG.

Rob said...

@ vasistha

“ jeitun culture, mehrgarh culture were already neolithic cultures by 5th mil bce.. they weren't mesolithic. ”

Yes I’m aware
Although I haven’t looked at the CHG question recently in detail, from a “historically plausibility “ pov it seems to me that “steppe CHG” relates to ~ 6000 bce ceramic-adapting HGs of the Caucasus region. This was a wide ranging phenomenon, from Central Asia to Eastern Europe

Rob said...

@ Andrze

''Please give this poor guy a break. This is an ad-hominem attack on his person. ''


I realise he has some loser followers on YouTube, but he is a Fake and a Fraud. The guy has never even been to Europe, never read a decent book about it.
And that would be okay, but he should never talk out of line

Same goes with you , Bible boy

Andrzejewski said...

@ambron “ The PIE theory as a WHG language has a clear mark in genetics. The most archaic Indo-European languages are the Balto-Slavic dialects. And the most characteristic genetic marker of the Balto-Slavs is a specific component of the WHG.”

Can you quote or link to a reliable source?

Andrzejewski said...

I’m still waiting for an essay by Anthony, Reich and Rob.

Who knows, maybe toss in Johannes Krause from Max Plank institute, with his South of Caspian PIE origin theory.

You sound like a past blogger here, Draggos or Drago, with his theory about PIE being a Neolithic farmer EEF Balkan language.

The only plausible relic of anything remotely akin to WHG vocabulary are the approximately 1/3 of Sami vocabulary which is neither IE nor Uralic in origin. And even that is flimsy at most.

pnuadha said...

@Andrzejewski The CWC from western Ukraine forest zone moved westbound to Poland and Germany, wiped out GAC males and married GAC females.

Its not that hard to comprehend what the recent papers are telling us. The majority of wives of CW men were steppe derived CW women, not GAC women. You see a very mild gender difference and you immidiately jump to all the steppe men married farmer women. This is ridiculous. We have had the ancient dna for over 5 years and it is giving us a picture of mass migration, albeit with some gender bias. You arent wrong for oversimplifying the situation, you are wrong for pointing in the opposite direction.

The recent paper on early CW in Czechia, explicitly stated that out of the 6 samples with the highest levels of steppe, 4 of them were women. In other words women, were bringing steppe ancestry to central europe. Of all the Women in early CW Czechia (something like 15 or 20) only 4 were farmer derived. Do you see how dead wrong you are? If steppe men were largely marrying non steppe women, then after a few generations the 75% steppe heritage in CW people would be reduced to about 20% as they moved through non steppe populations. But modern English and Irish have about 50% steppe heritage.

The average height of humans is around 5' 7". Men are on average a bit taller than women. But the way you react is as if men are 8ft and women are 3ft tall. Digest the CW data, make it a part of your thinking. Stop telling ridiculous stories.

Rob said...

@ Andrzejewski

Don't worry about that. Being able to understand the difference between Farmers, hunter-gatherers and pastoralists, their interactions and localities is well beyond you. You're a waste of space here and should be removed
What I want to know is how you even manage to breathe

Matt said...

@Andrzejewski: "You sound like a past blogger here, Draggos or Drago, with his theory about PIE being a Neolithic farmer EEF Balkan language."

I'm not going to comment on all the robust discussion (eesh), but how have you not realized that all these people with the same theory have been Rob all along? It defies reason. He's literally the only guy on the web / on Earth with this theory (which might be right, though only god knows if it will ever be provable with evidence to a level that convinces anyone else in the scholarly world).

Matt said...

@Rob, the bit I copy pasted was him saying you were Dragos, which you are. If you want to talk about him misrepresenting your theory, takeit up with him.

The prevalent theory in Europe is not that proto-Indo European originated among a WHG or WHG rich group from SE or Central Europe. It is not a common theory. There is no one on line who believes or espouses this theory other than you, and no one in academia. You can present matters as the contrary if you wish.

I don't care about the insults because I don't respect you. Like most people you encounter.

Rob said...

@ Matt

Here’s a tip Matt- instead of pretending to know what academia holds - stick to mass copy / pasting third-hand info onto Imgur. That way you can continue to pretend you’re relevant in this field :)
I know you’re not that dumb, so I can only conclude that your intentional misrepresenting of my view ( outlined numerous times as Not being IE =. EEF) is because you’re a weasel. Im not even sure what you personally espouse because I tend not to read your vapid comments.
There is nothing worse than dishonesty whilst holding a false facade of being a nice guy. Simply, you’re not a man

As for “my theory” , it’s not mine. It’s an observation of events which played out 5000 years ago . As Old Europe summarised “ PIE from europe and with WHG in it is the greatest nightmare”. I don’t know why, don’t really care why it bothers some of you so much.

Rob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Genos Historia said...

@Rob,

It is sad to see an intelligent person, like you, stubbornly subscribe to a baseless theory for political reasons.

Genos Historia said...

@Rob,
"I have also outlined what East Central Europe (sensu latu)actually entails. Re-check your geography and recheck where the oldest find spots of M269, M17, and I-L699 have been found"

How many times do you have to be reminded, that those samples in Eneolithic Balkans all have Steppe admixture. Their lineages came from the Steppe. They didn't originate or expand out of the Balkans.

So, once again your theory is totally baseless.

capra internetensis said...

Guys, no one's worst nightmare involves the PIE homeland lol, this is academic slap-fighting and boutique online ethnonationalist nonsense.

Also, I have no idea why you would spend a single neuron-second reading Andrzejewski's posts.

Andrzejewski said...

@Rob “ My summary of you , Sam & Andrze is accurate, I dont care it ofends you because I dont like weasels. I command great respect in real life. I dont know you , but i doubt you achieved 10% of what I have. I'm not going to pretend nice to people like you to get your respect, i dont need it and it would mean nothing anyway.”

I don’t know either Matt or Genos outside of this blog. But one thing for certain is that they’ve never put anyone down. They could be professor or amateurs, students or readers.

You brag as if you are at least at the stature of Lazaridis, Shishlina, Patterson or Reich. But I’m sure that Reich or Lazaridis are much more humble in their daily lives than you are.

Again, waiting on your next essay to drop at Oxford Publishing House ;)

Romulus said...

@Matt

Madison Grant was a very mainstream anthropologist in his era and he placed the ultimate origin of indo-european languages in the big brained hunter gatherers of europe. So it's not unprecedented.

Rob said...

I think I understand what the issue here is. Some people - despite long term exposure to the field - are still poorly informed

We need to start with basics. 1. geography 2. basic data points

Refer Here

This is a map of ECE as defined by WHO.
Super-added is the early occurence of lineages assoc. with expansion phase of 'steppe cultures'

What I have been saying is 100% correct. The fact that some of you think Im wrong, and insist so, only highlights the gulf which exists
a) The R1b-P297 in latvia HGs, the 4500 BC R1b-M269 in Bulgaria
b) R1a-M17 in Ukraine Mes
c) Yamnaya-BB-Swat valley associaed I2a2


It is obviously simplified image, but simple is what some of you need

Andrzejewski said...

@Romulus “ Madison Grant was a very mainstream anthropologist in his era and he placed the ultimate origin of indo-european languages in the big brained hunter gatherers of europe. So it's not unprecedented.”

Please link.

Andrzejewski said...

@The Idiot “ PIE from europe and with WHG in it is the greatest nightmare”. I don’t know why, don’t really care why it bothers some of you so much.”

Because it’s nonsense!

PIE is from Europe, a language isolate, and is originally from Western Steppe Herders.

BTW, there were R1a found in Comb Ceramic, Bug Dniester and Dnieper Donets, although they were completely different than those found in Indo-Europeans.

Rob said...

@ Sam

“ It is sad to see an intelligent person, like you, stubbornly subscribe to a baseless theory for political reasons.”


Mate you need to go back to school and learn to read & understand geography . Please do that because we can’t be continually dealing with your jibberish
I was only joking before but I’m now serious- what’s up with schools in the USA ?

Because (1) I have never stated PIE expanded from the Balkans, and (2) what political purpose would it achieve ?
My current political view is that we need to cap the power of techno-feudal monopolies. How are the two linked ?!

Don’t you see how your projecting your own stupidity here

Romulus said...

@Andrzejewski

https://archive.org/stream/passingofgreatra00granuoft/passingofgreatra00granuoft_djvu.txt

XIII
ORIGIN OF THE ARYAN LANGUAGES

Ric Hern said...

The paper on Northeastern Europe is interesting. It seems to me that the population there was displaced towards Western Siberia due to climatic conditions following the herds sometime around 24 000 ybp. and some of their descendants returned to Northeastern Europe around 19 000 ybp. following the herds. So ANE basically formed between Perm and Lake Baikal.

pnuadha said...

@EastPole

"America is a racist country, no doubt about it. You have inherited Germanic racism towards Slavic people. It is not only Germanic Americans who are racists, Black Americans are racists, Jewish Americans are racists, Indian Americans are racists.

You really dont understand America. America is anti white. Andrew is correct in saying that our elite have deemed our entire legacy and heritage as illegitimate. We literally have our statues being tore down and our heroes being vilified as if we are an occupied country (which we are). We dont have real borders. We dont decide who is American, and therefore we lose what it is to be American. Any outsider can tell us what we are, because they "are" American. We dont have autonomy at the most basic level. Every non European group that comes to america is totally free to advocate for their group interest. In fact they are encouraged to do so because of supposed minority descrimination; keep in mind we opened the door for them. Nepotism is not called out for any non white group. At the same time, European Americans are not allowed to advocate for their interests. The very notion that whites would even identify as a group with shared interests is seen as a grave evil. The only time whites can be addressed as a collective is when they are derided. Again, America is not even allowed a border because that would require European Americans to have ever had the right to self determination. During a recent nation wide covid stimulus bill, designed to help restaurants and small businesses, white people were denied access on account of their race. No other racial group was subjected to this. We not only have to give up the country our ancestors founded but we are being treated as second class citizens.

pnuadha said...

The media especially hates white americans. There was a recent trial involving a white defendant who had shot 3 white rioters/protestors in self defense. The media spun this incident into a example of white racism... somehow. They even claimed he was a white nationalist and that his killings were racially motivated. This narrative was completely made up and turned out be be wholly false. One week after he was found not guilty, a black man from the same state drove his car into 50 people at a christmas parade, almost entirely populated by white people. This was an intention attack as witnesses saw him aiming his car at the parade goers. Furthermore, this black man had talked about committing violence against white people on his twitter account before he ran over a bunch of white people. The very same media that had turned a simple case of self defense into a malicious racist attack in order to stoke racial grievances against whites, has gone totally silent after a black guy ran into 40+ white people. They arent even bringing race into the equation despite the guy having expressed a desire to commit violence against whites.

As for your comment about americans knowing about the holocaust but not knowing about the many more slavs who were killed in WWII it has far more to do with favoritism than anti slav sentiment. Take a look at the video of the former head of the ADL telling Ukraine to downplay the genocide of Holodomor because it would detract from how special the holocaust is... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg1rL_kbO_w&t=4s

Ric Hern said...

Maybe some ANS ancestry even originated from Initial Early Paleolithic peoples of Northeastern Europe....?

ambron said...

Andrzejewski

"Lithuanian... is the most archaic among all the Indo-European languages spoken today, and as a result it is very useful, indeed, indispensable in the study of Indo-European linguistics."

https://www.lituanus.org/1969/69_3_02.htm

And Lithuanians also have the most WHG.

Rob said...
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Rob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gamerz_J said...

@Ric Hern

"The paper on Northeastern Europe is interesting. It seems to me that the population there was displaced towards Western Siberia due to climatic conditions following the herds sometime around 24 000 ybp. and some of their descendants returned to Northeastern Europe around 19 000 ybp. following the herds. So ANE basically formed between Perm and Lake Baikal."

Which paper are you referring to?


@Davidski

I am trying out some Global 25 models and sometimes get low amounts of random ancestries geographically far removed from the target populations (I include them more as in a "control" setting) would there be a threshold in Global 25 below which trace ancestries may not reflect reality?


PS: Not sure if anyone brought this up already but this was published not long ago: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-021-01231-4 "A selection pressure landscape for 870 human polygenic traits" and I thought it may be of interest.

gamerz_J said...

Also, I don't want to be "that guy" but some posts here talk about political influences and all that, may be true but I don't think it's fruitful to bring it up.

Rob said...

@ Ric

“ So ANE basically formed between Perm and Lake Baikal."”

100%. You have demonstrated how having a solid grasp of archaeology leads to accurate genetic inferences
Otherwise people are shooting in the dark

Andrzejewski said...

@ambron “ "Lithuanian... is the most archaic among all the Indo-European languages spoken today, and as a result it is very useful, indeed, indispensable in the study of Indo-European linguistics."

https://www.lituanus.org/1969/69_3_02.htm

And Lithuanians also have the most WHG.”

Doesn’t seem like one thing has got anything to do with the other.

Also, Finns have the most WHG, and perhaps even the most WSH than other nations.

Davidski said...

Finns don't have the most WSH ancestry. Their WSH ancestry is inflated by their Siberian admix when not analyzed properly.

And this myth that they have the most WSH ancestry has been used by some to link WSH with Uralic languages.

gamerz_J said...

@MH_82

"OT: been having further look at the question of ANS/ANE. There's no real Onge or anything southeast Asian in it (hardly surprising)"

(unless I missed it) So what is in ANE then? And did you also get an idea about how East Asians formed since you mentioned them?

In that light, how old would you consider the ANE profile (I know it's probably many profiles, but the main branch if that can even be said)

Tigran said...

What do most of you guys think the source of the western component in ANS/ANE is (if it is the same)? And how much of there is it?

@Davidski

Finns have done this a lot. They've tried to link WSHG, ANE, EHG and WHG with Uralic in addition to WSH. Anything except Nganassian.

Andrzejewski said...

@Tigran “ Finns have done this a lot. They've tried to link WSHG, ANE, EHG and WHG with Uralic in addition to WSH. Anything except Nganassian.”

It’s funny that I used to think of Botai language as something ANE related. Now I think it’s more like Paleo-Siberian languages like Yukaghir, Nivkh, Koriak etc are the same as Native Americans, but their linguistic derivation is more of East Asian rather than ANE extraction. Same goes to whatever Botai spoke.

Davidski said...

Not all Finns, just a few nutjobs here and there.

Andrzejewski said...

I read that Anatolian HG were formed when a Villabruna cluster related pop moved into central Anatolia and mixed with the autochthonous population which was related to Natufians or Basal Eurasians. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1

If true, then maybe the common denominator that all 3 ancestral strands of modern Europeans is not Kostenki14 but WHG.

Vladimir said...

I would argue about the Finns. If we trace the phylogeny of N1a1, then the oldest thing we have is N1a-L708 TransBaikal_N with the autosomal profile Amur-River EN. Apparently this is the basic autosomal profile of N1a1 at the date of 7000 years BC. Then this group migrates north from Baikal to Yakutia, where it mixes with the Paleosibirsk ANS component of the USA_Anzick type. In this form, this group becomes EBA. This is the autosomal profile of Krasnoyarsk-BA. Then this group migrates to western/central Siberia, where it mixes with the Sosnoviy-HG profile. As a result, the autosomal profile of the N1a1 group takes the form of BOO with proportions of 50-75% Sosnoviy-HG and 25-50% Krasnoyarsk BA. In this form, they met with the MLBA Steppe group. Further, after 2000 BC, they mixed with the MLBA Steppe, we do not have such samples yet, they will be from the Volga region. Then, closer to the EIA, the group mixed with the easternmost Balts who lived east of the Dnieper and in this form by the year 500 they arrive at the Baltic Sea with the profile EST-OLS10. Then they mix with the Baltic BA, then with the Goths, then with the southern Balts who arrived from the Dnieper, then with the Slavs. In which of these autosomal transitions they started speaking Finnish is unknown. The period after 2000-1500, starting with the MLBA Steppe, I would exclude since the languages of these groups are known to us. I would also exclude the period before TransBaikal_N, since the last article on trans-Eurasian languages sees the formation of the Altai group of languages. There remains the Siberian period from 5000 to 2000 BC, when this group moved from Yakutia to the Urals.

Davidski said...

It's not clear yet when and where the autosomal profile typical of BOO formed.

But I do know that there's at least one sample from a ~2,000 BCE Seima-Turbino site in Central Siberia that is basically 100% kra001 (Kransoyarsk BA).

So I wouldn't put my money on Uralic speakers being mostly West Eurasian by 2,000 BCE.

old europe said...



the western component in ANS/ANE is a population on a cline between Goyet and Kostenki. It is archeologically aurignacian and genetically a mix between western aurignacian and proto gravettian from the Caucasus.
But mostly upper paleolithic euros.
Afontova Gora is more western shifted.
EHG in turn are more western shifted
PIE are even more western shifted ( because of EHG/WHG mix)

Ric Hern said...

Apparently the Initial Upper Paleolithic of Northeastern Europe can Archaeologicaly be linked to the Crimea and probably the source of this population prior to their expansion Northwards sometime before 38 000 ybp....

Andrzejewski said...

@Vladimir The Altaic theory used to be discarded and consigned to the trash bin of history since the 1960s and up until a fairly recent article. Now they’re called “transeurasian”, whose speakers are traced to 9,000BP millet farmers in Northern/NE China.

Given that both this population, which could be related to (or descended of) an Ulchi-like (Devil’s Gate) population that constitutes the East Asian part of Beringian-Americans, and the Nganasan ancestry (Northern China?, Transbaikal?) may have either shared deep ancestry in the Paleolithic or were possibly neighbors in close proximity, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out after all that Uralic and Altaic languages share a common root.

Anonymous said...

@Ric Hern
But and Yana?
Yana is much older than 24 Kyo and is mostly West Eurasian. So the migration towards the East is much older than the LGM.

Carlos Aramayo said...

Here's a new paper co-authored by David Reich, that was out today in Antiquity journal:

https://tinyurl.com/ht8n5krt

"The return of the Beaker folk?: Rethinking migration and population change in British prehistory" - Ian Armit and David Reich

Abstract

Recent aDNA analyses demonstrate that the centuries surrounding the arrival of the Beaker Complex in Britain witnessed a massive turnover in the genetic make-up of the island's population. The genetic data provide information both on the individuals sampled and the ancestral populations from which they derive. Here, the authors consider the archaeological implications of this genetic turnover and propose two hypotheses—Beaker Colonisation and Steppe Drift—reflecting critical differences in conceptualisations of the relationship between objects and genes. These hypotheses establish key directions for future research designed to investigate the underlying social processes involved and raise questions for wider interpretations of population change detected through aDNA analysis.

Carlos Aramayo said...

Another recent paper in Antiquity:

"Understanding early horse transport in eastern Eurasia through analysis of equine dentition" Taylor et al.

https://tinyurl.com/cm5cd2b4

Abstract:

Across Eurasia, horse transport transformed ancient societies. Although evidence for chariotry is well dated, the origins of horse riding are less clear. Techniques to distinguish chariotry from riding in archaeological samples rely on elements not typically recovered from many steppe contexts. Here, the authors examine horse remains of Mongolia's Deer Stone-Khirigsuur (DSK) Complex, comparing them with ancient and modern East Asian horses used for both types of transport. DSK horses demonstrate unique dentition damage that could result from steppe chariotry, but may also indicate riding with a shallow rein angle at a fast gait. A key role for chariots in Late Bronze Age Mongolia helps explain the trajectory of horse use in early East Asia.

Rob said...

@ Capra

''l, this is academic slap-fighting and boutique online ethnonationalist nonsense.''

not really. Its about the the most accurate reading of the evidence wise
Some here don’t even know what they're objecting to, it's just automatically generated noise like Pavlovs dogs

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