When discussing the Kura-Araxes culture and its people it's important to understand these key points:
- there is Eastern European steppe ancestry in Kura-Araxes samples, and if you're not seeing it then you're not looking hard enough
- Armenian Kura-Araxes samples are mainly a mixture between three different groups currently best represented in the ancient DNA record by ARM_Areni_C, IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C and RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
- ergo, most of the steppe ancestry in the Kura-Araxes population of what is now Armenia must have been mediated via local Chalcolithic groups like ARM_Areni_C
- Kura-Araxes samples show Mesopotamian-related ancestry, and this mustn't be ignored.
Oh, you don't believe it because you just read a big paper in
Science claiming otherwise?
Well, the authors of that paper,
Lazaridis, Alpaslan-Roodenberg et al., used distal mixture models to study the ancestry of their Kura-Araxes samples, and such models can miss important details.
Consider these three proximate mixture models for a relatively high quality and very homogenous Kura-Araxes sample set from the aforementioned paper. They were done with the qpAdm software
ARM_Kura-Araxes_Berkaber
ARM_Areni_C 0.239±0.068
IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C 0.379±0.068
RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En 0.382±0.054
P-value 0.285122 (Pass)
Full output
ARM_Kura-Araxes_Berkaber
IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C 0.569±0.051
RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En 0.363±0.058
RUS_Progress_En 0.068±0.020
P-value 0.20306 (Pass)
Full output
ARM_Kura-Araxes_Berkaber
IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C 0.531±0.060
RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En 0.469±0.060
P-value 0.0132579 (Fail)
Full output
Some caveats apply. For instance, the pass threshold (P-value ≥0.05) is arbitrary. But the point is that the models look much better with steppe-related and steppe reference populations (ARM_Areni_C and RUS_Progress_En, respectively).
Moreover, the unique and vital Darkveti-Meshoko population is represented by just one individual. I also have the genotypes of his brother and sister, but relatives aren't allowed in these sorts of tests.
Including a singleton in the analysis means that I can't use the
inbreed: YES option, which apparently can be a bad thing. Nevertheless, these models do look very solid.
Indeed, I can also model ARM_Kura-Araxes_Berkaber as practically 100% RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya, perhaps with some excess ARM_Areni_C-related input.
ARM_Kura-Araxes_Berkaber
ARM_Areni_C 0.094±0.087
RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya 0.906±0.087
P-value 0.284259 (Pass)
Full ouput
This makes good sense, because RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya can also be modeled solidly as a mixture between IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C, RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En and RUS_Progress_En.
RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C 0.614±0.056
RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En 0.307±0.064
RUS_Progress_En 0.080±0.022
P-value 0.141468 (Pass)
Full output
I don't know whether the genetic relationship between ARM_Kura-Araxes_Berkaber and RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya shown in my model is due to Maykop ancestry in the former. It might just be a coincidence in the sense that the same or similar processes led to the formation of both groups. Feel free to let me know your thoughts about that in the comments.
The fact that the Kura-Araxes people harbored steppe ancestry might be very important in the debate over the location of the so called Indo-Anatolian homeland. For instance, it's possible that the proto-Anatolian language spread from the North Caucasus into Anatolia via the Kura-Araxes culture.
But, admittedly, such a solution doesn't have strong support from historical linguistics data, which suggest that the Indo-Anatolian homeland was located in what is now Ukraine and that Anatolian speakers entered West Asia via the Balkans:
Indo-European cereal terminology suggests a Northwest Pontic homeland for the core Indo-European languages
See also...
R-V1636: Eneolithic steppe > Kura-Araxes?
Dear Iosif...Yamnaya
But Iosif, what about the Phrygians?
242 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 242 of 242@Davidski
I did put Laal as the pop name in the .fam file I don't know if it carried over though. What label should I exactly put? It does have the ID from the repository I got it from.
@LivoniaG
That’s right. It actually looks like the highest quality samples are the older Eneolithic samples at Mayaki. Bulk of the samples range out between 4300-3700 BC. So probably pre Usatovo. Perhaps Cernavoda and/or Novodanilovka.
Neolithic farmers did not speak Proto-Anatolian.
I suspect it has something to do with Yamnaya Hungary or Bulgaria
@ Vara
''Yes Rob, tell us about linguistics and archaeology. "Lydian is ancestral to Luwian and Catacomb was Iranian''
1. I suggested that Catacomb contributed to proto-Iranian groups.
2. I outlined that IE-Anatolian languages share are very similar set of features, relating to a common 'proto-language' form or state.
Unfortunately, your understanding remains poor.
@Sam Elliott
Unfortunately, my crystal ball tells me that all of the Usatovo samples in this paper are females.
@David wrote:
@Sam Elliott
Unfortunately, my crystal ball tells me that all of the Usatovo samples in this paper are females.
Characteristic of actual Cucuteni–Tripolye settlements > all female graves.
@Rob
"2. I outlined that IE-Anatolian languages share are very similar set of features, relating to a common 'proto-language' form or state."
Woaaaah. Next thing you're going to tell me is Russian and Polish go back to a proto-Slavic language. HOLY SHIT!
Yeah sorry Rob I forgot it could've been one of your other personalities who said this: "Hittite, Luwian, Palaic, Carian are all from the one granddaddy language- Lydian, which is the biggest and stretches all the way to the west Anatolian coast and Aegean. You can call it proto-Anatolian, makes no difference:
Yeah, Luwian and Hittite attested ~2000BCE. Lydian attested ~800BCE. Rob's conclusion: Lydian is proto-Anatolian.
Hahaha it's not a big deal.
Am African-American acquaintance told me that “white people” have the “privilege” of having migrated to Northern Europe and as a result their skin color lightened. I explained to him that pastoralists from Ukraine assimilated the farmers and foragers who had lived before them in the rest of Europe.
“That is not what happened” was his quick reply.
He immediately made me think of Gaska, Vara, Renfrew, Vasistha et al, who deny Steppe origins of PIE.
@Gaska
"Gimbutas, Anthony, Mallory etc.... are DEAD, and you will die with them if you pretend to defend what they thought."
That's funny, since you have never read any of what those folks have written.
I don't want to quote anything else you wrote because it's all just incredibly ridiculous, like the part about R1a coming from the Neolithic farmers of Old Europe. It's a waste of time countering your drivel. You've been presented with the evidence time and time again, but you never learn.
Head on down to the public library and read something Gimbutas, Mallory, Anthony, etc.
@Davidski
“Unfortunately, my crystal ball tells me that all of the Usatovo samples in this paper are females.”
Interesting. I think there may have been a couple samples from Mayaki, possibly from the Eneolithic, that belonged to T2b and X2b. Also, there was a paper from several years back that profiled ancient DNA samples from other kurgans there in the NWBSR, but they only looked at mitochondrial lineages as well. I wonder why this is? Were there no male samples?
@ Andrze
''He immediately made me think of Gaska, Vara, Renfrew, Vasistha et al, who deny Steppe origins of PIE.''
Until you find steppe ancestry in western Anatolia, it's best not judge Renfrew
Gimbutas was writing from her feminist world-view, and did not account for how the kurgan culture formed, and did not understand that steppe pastoralism emerged only because of the close dialogue with nearby farmers.
And I wouldnt place Renfrew in the same league as those other clowns
@Rob
I don't see any way to salvage the Renfrew model.
His model literally claims that Anatolian farmers spread Indo-European languages as they expanded across Europe and Asia over thousands of years. You know, like Celtic arriving with Early European farmers in Western Europe.
There's no way to make that work. It's Gaska level insanity.
@ Davidski
Well I did not say Renfrew is correct, because his model is too 'old' and static, amongst other reasons. But his overall contributions to European archaeology are invaluable.
And at the end of the day, a certain subset of Farmers in the northwest Black were probably the original IEs. So Gimbutas & Anthony weren;t right either
Rob
"But more importantly the theory that Majkop is PiE, which you obviously stole from other commentators and now are hysterically promulgating, doesn’t hold."
Sure let us know who these other commentators are. I mixed the Maykop PIE from Mallory, Vassilkov and Ivanov/Gamkrelidze. But I agree it doesn't hold anymore.
"In fact, you have no genetic and analytical abilities to back your claims, and have been caught out lying by Epoch that Majkop originated in Iran."
Wow, so much anger. Rob, are you claiming that Ivanova was lying? That's so low. But it's been discussed before and your previous personality did not agree with our friend Epoch:
https://adnaera.com/2018/06/19/so-what-was-going-on-around-the-caucasus/
I legit made you change your position 99 times LOL.
Try modelling I6272, I6268, I6266 with Geoksyur. HINT: There's gene flow from Iran into the Caucasus and Turan. Sorry, but even I had to accept that Maykop was part of the Khorasan road network.
But that's not relevant. You can't change the fact that there are elites from the Caucasus in Arslantepe. I know it hurts someone who is invested in ANF Pseudo-Indo-Europeans but you have to accept it.
"Hence you’re lashing out. You need to solicit an appropriate witchdoctor to help get the evil chickens & monkeys out of your head."
Damn I owned you so bad you even copied my gimmick.
Whatever, you're the expert tarot reader Mr. Reincarnated Proto-Anatolian.
@ Vara
My point has consistently been that LUWIAN is the largest language, maybe I misstyped in one sentence.
Interesting how you consistently cherry-pick & distort, whilst the very premise that you're fanatically promulgating stems from other people's stolen comments, and lacks any sort of genetic and analytical backbone. Moreover, you were caught out lying by Epoch about the Iranian origins of Majkop kurgans.
"Gaska, Vara, Renfrew, Vasistha et al"
LOOOOL. Look at this gem from Mr. Hunter Gatherers spoke PIE. Eurogenes is finally back to the good old days. However, you forgot the two legends, Ivanov and Gamkrelidze, who accurately reconstructed much of IE culture and religion.
TBH IDK what conversations you're having in a sports bar deep in South Carolina but I'm happy I live rent free in your head.
Also, Harvard and Max Planck killed the idea that the hierarchical Indo-Hittites are some egalitarian fishermen so deal with it.
@ Vara
The old boys on the blogosphere had been pondering about Maykop for 20 years before your lame ass came on the scene.
“But that's not relevant. You can't change the fact that there are elites from the Caucasus in Arslantepe. I know it hurts someone who is invested in ANF Pseudo-Indo-Europeans but you have to accept it. “”
You mean the “fisherman elite” in Arslantepe with R1b?
Or the fact that EEF and I2a are found in Swat
You are a moron
Rob
"Yes, primitive northern 'fishermen' couldn't possibly have been PIE.
And it is you & Vasistha who consistenly cry with your pseudo-victimhood complex."
What the hell is this about now? Every time I lay an intellectual beatdown on you you bring up Vasistha. What's your obsession with the poor guy?
Yes, primitive fishermen couldn't possibly have been PIE. Real Indo-Europeans had wool, metallurgy, some form of agriculture and their whole religion revolved around a guy on a mountain fighting a snake. Also, cult of hearth and home so none of that wagon dweller nonsense either.
Oh no I2a in iron age Swat 500 years after the Indo-Aryans made their way to the Hurrians. Next thing you're going to tell me TKM_IA brought Iranian languages when the Medes were trading with the Assyrians 1100 BCE.
R1b in Arslantepe doesn't change the fact that the package was Caucasian. Yes I know the context doesn't matter to you cause I2 and 2% steppe ancestry proves Anatolian came from the Balkans.
Lol you changed the subject 10 times and you still keep getting destroyed.
I have never understood this obsession with locating the origin of PIE in the steppes but it is clear that for some people it is a matter of life and death. There are many theories about the origin of this language and of course many insane clowns who have defended different positions to the one that seems to be the majority in this blog. Gaska (who is not even Indo-European), Vara, Vasistha are not important, but Renfrew, Cavalli Sforza, Bomhard, Todorovic, Schmidt, Kozintsev, Tonoyan-Belyayev, Gamkrelidze & Ivanov, Kloekhorst, Heggarty, Klejn etc etc etc etc... are, and they all deserve to be as respected as the proponents of steppe theory.
These clowns have now been joined by eminent geneticists such as Reich, Lazaridis, Krause etc. etc. so it is evident that the international scientific community has become a circus, thank God we have Andrzejewski to explain why we Europeans are white and how African Americans think.
The production of bullshit is stimulated whenever a person’s obligations or opportunities to speak about some topic are more excessive than his knowledge of the facts that are relevant to that topic. The bullshitter does not care whether the things he says describe reality correctly. He just picks them out, or makes them up, to suit his purpose. However studiously and conscientiously the bullshitter proceeds, it remains true that he is also trying to get away with something. There is surely in his work, as in the work of the slovenly craftsman some kind of laxity which resists or eludes the demands of a disinterested and austere discipline
Just when it appeared that the Pontic Steppe theory of Indo-European origins was about to be consigned to the dustbin of history, together with Marija Gimbutas’ reputation for her later work among all but the most ardent feminists, it was resurrected by Anthony, in his book portentously subtitled How Bronze-Aged Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World-Gimbutas related to her tendency to see earth goddesses everywhere, there were always serious problems with the invasion aspect, such as the fact that there was nothing specifically Indo-European about building kurgans and the invaders did not penetrate very far into Europe before they abandoned the practice, as well as evidence that the direction of flow of cultural practices was actually from the Balkans & South Caucasus onto the Steppes. There are also western and southern genetic contributions that reached the steppe cultures. Are we also going to deny it? The game has only just begun
@ Vara
It doesn’t matter if they’re 95% Andananese. “Steppe ancestry” has never been my benchmark - autosomics are markers during certain phases of transition which can change rapidly
The fact is that the lineages from central - Eastern Europe are found across Bronze Age western and Central Asia . Even Majkop & KA expanded into Iran, after borrowing some kurgan and wagon ideology from Sredni Stog
So you’re not “owning” anything, in fact you’re empty handed
"Thats completely wrong. Circassian has one of the closest grammar systems to PIE and shares a huge number of cognates, here are a few from Caucasus linguistics expert John Colarusso:"
This is the first time I hear such a thing, can you put a specific quote from the author where he says this? The similarity of 1-2 words does not mean anything, because they were borrowed from any Indo-European language. The word Aryan was most likely borrowed from the Scythian-Sarmatians.
"Even the mythology of Circassians is extremely Indo-Europeanised / Indo Europeanlike."
Nart Saga is from the Indo-Iranians. The Scythians-Sarmatians controlled the entire North Caucasus for a long time. Therefore, Proto-Indo-European has nothing to do with it.
@Gaska
"The production of bullshit is stimulated whenever a person’s obligations or opportunities to speak about some topic are more excessive than his knowledge of the facts that are relevant to that topic. The bullshitter does not care whether the things he says describe reality correctly. He just picks them out, or makes them up, to suit his purpose. However studiously and conscientiously the bullshitter proceeds, it remains true that he is also trying to get away with something. There is surely in his work, as in the work of the slovenly craftsman some kind of laxity which resists or eludes the demands of a disinterested and austere discipline"
A mighty fine piece of autobiography there.
@Gaska
"Just when it appeared that the Pontic Steppe theory of Indo-European origins was about to be consigned to the dustbin of history, together with Marija Gimbutas’ reputation for her later work among all but the most ardent feminists, it was resurrected by Anthony, in his book portentously subtitled How Bronze-Aged Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World-Gimbutas related to her tendency to see earth goddesses everywhere, there were always serious problems with the invasion aspect, such as the fact that there was nothing specifically Indo-European about building kurgans and the invaders did not penetrate very far into Europe before they abandoned the practice, as well as evidence that the direction of flow of cultural practices was actually from the Balkans & South Caucasus onto the Steppes. There are also western and southern genetic contributions that reached the steppe cultures. Are we also going to deny it? The game has only just begun"
First, this is not a game. Most of us are simply interested in the truth, some of us because it concerns our ancestors.
Second, the "Pontic Steppe theory of Indo-European origins" remains the consensus view among historical linguists, although most would make it "Pontic-Caspian" and not merely "Pontic". It never has been, nor is it now, "about to be consigned to the dustbin of [pre]history". It remains the point of view supported by the preponderance of the evidence: linguistic, archaeological, and archaeogenetic.
Suppose for a moment that those who think archaic Indo-European speech originated south of the Caucasus are right. They are wrong, but suppose for a moment they are right. That would not change the fact that core PIE originated on the Pontic-Caspian steppe and was spread to Europe and South Asia from there, along with steppe DNA and Y-DNA haplogroups R1b-M269 and R1a-M417. That is just beyond a reasonable doubt and incontrovertible.
Eventually the archaeogenetic and other evidence will be as clear that archaic IE originated on the Pontic-Caspian steppe, as well.
@Gaska
Great post. Eloquent and well said.
There's too many fanatics: OoIr ones, steppe ones, Basques ones.
The answer to these riddles are about understanding longue duree developments and shades of distinction. It's not about finding the Holy Grail of steppe ancestry, or Iran N, or whatever.
@Rich S.
A mighty fine piece of autobiography there.
lol
@Rob
How do you reconcile the spread of Indo-European being linked to the secondary products revolution when the words for wheel, milk and other farming related terms apparently have different origins in Anatolian and nuclear PIE?
Wouldn't that push back the split between Anatolian and nuclear PIE to well beyond 4,500 BCE...except, of course, unless their shared homeland was in some hunter-fisher backwater like the steppe.
@Davidski “How do you reconcile the spread of Indo-European being linked to the secondary products revolution when the words for wheel, milk and other farming related terms apparently have different origins in Anatolian and nuclear PIE?”
I’ve always thought that “milk” had a cognate in Anatolian, just like “eat” and “water”.
What's the cognate for milk in Anatolian?
@Davidski Turns out it’s something like “la”.
I has assumed that it was a Hmelg-detived term
I know that Eat in Hittite was Edze and Water was Watar, so it’s almost identical to English; but I thought that Anatolian shared more basic PIE vocabulary with Post-Antatolian (namely CWC) branches.
@Davidski
According to the S1 table from G. Khvorykh (2020), Greeks on average have three times more IBD with the countries of the Caucasus and the Middle East than with the countries of Europe!
@StP
Sounds like nonsense. The results are probably skewed either due to the methods or the samples that were used.
IBD scores need to be normalized to make sense, but this isn't always done even in peer reviewed papers.
Also, including Greeks with Anatolian/Caucasus ancestry in the analysis and comparing them with Turks and Armenians can make the whole Greek sample set look excessively Near Eastern related.
@Davidski,
In G. Khvorykh et al. 2020, Global Picture of Genetic Relatedness and the Evolution of Humankind
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7696950/bin/biology-09-00392-s001.zip
there are 'number IBD' and 'normalized number IBD' tables.
@ Davidski
Ill abbreviate my reply. Yes, I think P-IH was a dialect chain of fisher-hunter-gatherers subject to different grades of Farmer influence. Hitto-Luwian might be the remnant of one such group, but high in ANF (the genetics of this gets complex), which expanded in Anatolia c 4000 bc.
Btw it seems that a lot of the “eastern shift” in central- eastern Anatolia is pre-Assyrian Mesopotamian
@StP
Pontic Greeks
@Davidski
Pontic Greks - at your place or at Khvorykh's?
But the lack of a common agricultural term for all IE’s makes me feel vindicated that archaic PIE was invented ~7,000ybp, because if “hmelg” was invented then the word for “brother” or “snow” could’ve been too
Armenians hate Turks. All genetic-linguistic research in the region made all Soviet Russia-backed Armenians and Georgians.
What were you expecting?
They're afraid of Step.
Please stop spreading armenian propaganda
Post a Comment