Wednesday, December 4, 2024
The PIE homeland controversy: December 2024 open thread
It seems like we're getting close to the moment when Iosif Lazaridis has to finally admit that the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) homeland was located in Eastern Europe, and also that the ancestors of the Hittites and other Anatolian speakers entered Anatolia via the Balkans.
Let's discuss.
However, please note that comments from total morons, trolls and/or mentally unstable people will not be approved.
See also...
Indo-European crackpottery
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610 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 610 Newer› Newest»Turkey from about 8000bce shows a lot of Y haplo G...By chalcolithic Chg-IranN rich population with some natufian start moving into Central Turkey...
Most of these ancient population with haplo G have way too much ANF compared to CHG-IranN...
But I concede I haven't paid much attention to the population in that part of the world...
@ Garbu
''The claim that CHG was in EE since Paleolithic is nonsense. Neither Sidelkino nor Veretye, Minino (ig), Yuzhniy (ig), Satanay have any trace of CHG. '
Nope, there is Y-hg J(1) in Popova & Karelia which proves an archaic but minor West Asian presence in EHG.
left pops:
Sidelkino_EHG
AfontovaGora3
Villabruna
Pinarbasi_HG
best coefficients: 0.684 0.164 0.152
tail prob 0.210
left pops:
Sidelkino_EHG
AfontovaGora3
Villabruna
best coefficients: 0.682 0.318
tail prob 0.004
Posth et al also detected a 'neolithic' like admixture in some EHG. in qpGraph, CHG comes out as the primary source rather than Pinarbasi. Ghaliachi et al claims were ''wrong'' because their analysis was myopic although their summation of Satanay itself was correct.
''Originally there were EHG in Ukraine & Baltics. Then EpiGravettians from Balkans and Italy with I2a moved into Ukraine & Baltics by 10K BCE and mixed with EHG to form UHG-BHG. Some minor part of this I2a also went into generic EHG as a result, there is like no I2a in EHG anyway, who are mostly R1a/b, with some Q1+'
WHG arrived earlier in the Baltics, ANE in western Russia, but Russian sites are poorly dated due to cryopertubation.
No...that is stretching the argument...It is a proposal that l657 could have spread with the migration of Kushans and Sakas to India as oldest l657 sample from China is a scythian...that sample there is a proof that some clades of l657 and an unbroken chain of L657 men leading to him were present outside India since bronze age...without any Indian ancestry...
@Gabru I don't know why you say that the homeland of NEC is somewhere in Abkhazia, serious linguists have no doubt that the homeland of NEC languages lies somewhere in the Eastern Caucasus (approximately northern Azerbaijan and southern Dagestan ), the homeland of NWC languages is accordingly the Western Caucasus, here is an screenshot from an article by Johanna Nichols, who has devoted her entire life to studying East Caucasian languages (based on the Ingush language)
https://i.ibb.co/Wshy8pG/Screenshot-20241220-105633.jpg
here is a video of the presentation itself, if you have nothing else to do, watch it
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gfvauHnP1c4
You don't have samples for Indians and scythians from 100bce-500ce India...
Target: India_RoopkundA:I6946__AD_841__Cov_27.98%
Distance: 3.7349% / 0.03734859
62.4 SAHG
19.8 Iran_GanjDareh_N
7.6 Russia_AfontovaGora3
4.2 Natufian
3.0 Caucasus_Hunter-Gatherer
3.0 China_YR_LN
Target: India_RoopkundA:I6942__AD_832__Cov_40.14%
Distance: 2.5845% / 0.02584540
63.0 SAHG
27.0 Iran_GanjDareh_N
7.4 Russia_AfontovaGora3
2.4 Natufian
0.2 Russia_Karelia_HG
Target: Pakistan_Butkara_IA:I12450__BC_801__Cov_50.77%
Distance: 2.6545% / 0.02654503
41.4 Iran_GanjDareh_N
18.4 SAHG
17.0 Caucasus_Hunter-Gatherer
9.4 Russia_AfontovaGora3
7.6 Turkey_N
4.6 China_YR_LN
1.6 Russia_Karelia_HG
All three of them are R1a and you can't even tell from where these R1a men originate...especially one of them who shares ancestors with the sarmatian sample...
@ Gabru
''The oldest J1 in EHG is well around 6200bce. Minino is older than 6200bce but haven't yielded any J1. No proof of presence of CHG older than 6400bce in EE.''
Characteristically inaccurate claims, Gabru
Minino 3; J1-M267; 7500 BC (Hofmanova 2022)
''The model of Sidelkino with Pinarbasi ^^^ is better because EHG has more Dzudzuana : Gravettian than WHG (EpiGrav) as base. Not because there is CHG in Sidelkino.''
Possibly, but if it's extra Dzudzuana affinity, then your claim it only arrived c. 6200 BC doesn;t make any sense; nor does it explain why such ancestry is greater in the older samples from Sidelkino & Karelia.
@Gabru
yes, but these same J1 samples from Karelia and from Minino, autosomal have less CHG than the earlier ones, right? why? after all, we are sure that this J1 came to them from the Western Asian population, and all because this Western Asian mixture, together with some J1, got into EHG at the beginning of its formation, then due to gene drift EHG moved away from CHG, that is, J1 in EHG is older than PES001, they just haven’t been found yet.
If this could be useful in this discussion, this is what I wrote in the J2 group of fb:
Hg J is certainly old in the Caucasus, but my previous theory that it was among the WHG like the brother group I isn't disproved so far: if you take J-Z6049 (13948 BCE), we have the oldest samples in Austria and Romania (Kleinhadersdorf Flur 5068, Pietrele 28, Pietrele 44); J-Z43590 (10993 BCE but Barcin/Anatolia is 6224-6074 BCE) and J-FTf148 (about 10000BCE) is all in Europe (Asparn Schletz 10 5500-5000 BCE etc).
Infact no one knows for sure if these Indo-scythians were even those EA rich ones from TianShan or no or low EA ones from China and Tajikistan...
Target: Kyrgyzstan_TianShan_Saka_o2:DA53__BC_422__Cov_25.86%
Distance: 2.2399% / 0.02239904
40.2 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
40.0 Turkmenistan_Gonur_BA_1
16.4 Russia_Afanasievo
3.4 Mongolia_LBA_Khovsgol_6
Target: China_Xinjiang_Abusanteer_IA_oWestEurasian:C4131__BC_667__Cov_42.14%
Distance: 1.3810% / 0.01381027
41.6 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
41.2 Turkmenistan_Gonur_BA_1
12.8 Russia_Afanasievo
4.4 Mongolia_LBA_Khovsgol_6
I don't know if they have Russia_Afanasievo but adding them do improves the model slightly....
Abusanteer_IA outlier is R1a1a1b2a2-Z2124
84/408 R1a samples from India are under R1a-Z2124
@Mr Funk re sheep: thank you for that information. It confirms what Kortland said. Hairy sheep were herded on the steppes early enough to have been herded by Sredny-stog. However woolly sheep although present on the caucasus and kurdistan much much earlier only crossed into the steppe after 2900 BC. This is a strong argument against an early Indo-european migration north through the caucasus because they would almost certainly have somehow obtained woolly sheep.
451BCE-1591CE
Is the range for steppe ancestry among Punjabi's...
74BCE-715CE
Is the range for Punjabi Sikh Jat
In this time period everyone knows who was migrating into India and Where...
(Narasimhan et al)
So what is the source of steppe ancestry this late among Punjabis? These dates coincide with Indo-Scythian and Kushan period...
Minor correction: Not India but India + Pakistan...
perhaps after 2900 BC (Maikop culture?) a woollier breed of sheep was brought to the Caucasus from Anatolia, the Chatalhoyuk
@Gabru in other places it doesn't matter but not in the Caucasus, in the Caucasus it's not just the side of the ridge, in the Caucasus every hill matters, look for example at the DNA of megrels (sample of 216 people), you see all the diversity of chromosomes but there isn't a single J1 among the main ones, and yet they have one of the highest chg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GfHPX5EXUAAdpXy?format=jpg&name=medium
Although we have lived in the same neighborhood since at least the Neolithic era, the DNA picture is different, although the distance is literally a couple of hundred kilometers
Hey Davidski since Illustrative DNA doesn’t provide real g25 coordinates anymore, will you be reopening your shop or providing g25 cords for another dna service? If so please let us know
@ Garbu
“ My point still stands just as. And an intrusion 5K years earlier isn't gonna change anything really if that's your motivation”
Sadly for you, none of your points ever stand because (I) you’re incompetent (2) a liar. The sooner you Cope with that, the less oxygen you’ll waste
@ Mr Funk
proto-NEC probably expanded from the Iron Age Characoj-Karakent culture
btw Majkop was a linguistic dead end, NWC derives from the Koban culture.
@Rob ,@Gabru
came across a qpGraph chart based on the article "Reconstructing the Human Population History of East Asia through Ancient Genomics – Dec. 2024"
on a scale of 0 to 10 how much is this nonsense?
he also has tutkaul there, but it is not involved in any mixture, it looks like a dead-end population
@Davidski, when you finish with the new calculator, will you again receive coordinates for ancient samples? And what will be the requirements for file coverage? The same as in G25? I mean will it be possible to use lower quality files on this calculator?
how many bytes of information will each sample contain in numerical form? more than G25?
@Derstanos
I'm not sure what I'm going to do with that yet, but I'll make the decision by February 2025.
oh god i forgot to pin the link to the diagram
i meant this diagram what do you say @Rob @Gabru
https://x.com/Tatsuya9JP/status/1870247120835317777/photo/1
@Rob
Kayakent - Kharachoy, this is when the languages had already divided into three main groups, I think, Avar-Ando-Tsez, Dargo-Lak and Lezgin (many languages and dialects within each group, were not yet formed at that time), and also Shahdag (the indigenous people of the northern part of Azerbaijan)
It is difficult to say about the Nakh, most likely they separated even earlier and mixed with the Maykopians / Kobanians
''https://x.com/Tatsuya9JP/status/1870247120835317777/photo/1''
It's hypermanic and fairly meaningles. The position of Ust-Ishim is dubious, half of the individuals are fictitious, and the west Eurasian side of bollocks. It seems this guy goal is to prove that japanese come from southeast Asia and lack any mainland northeast Asian ancestry. And according to him, Y-hg R1 also comes from Southeast and Eastern Asia.
It's amusing that this Steppe hypothesis now hinges on I2, but for now I'll remain doubtful. As far as late IE (Indo Aryan, Balto Slavic, and Italo-Celto-Germanic) goes the connection to R1a is easy to see but for early IE the situation is more confused and unclear than ever. I don't really hold any strong opinions about early IE at the moment. If we find a bunch of Hittites belonging to I2-L699 I'll be more enthused. At the moment it is as interesting an idea to me that PIE itself (as well as Anatolian, Greek, Albanian, Armenian) holds a stronger connection to the manufacture of Bronze than to Steppe genetics.
The classic steppe hypothesis doesn't hinge on I2.
It hinges on the evidence of a migration from the steppe to Anatolia via the Balkans, and that evidence does now exist in ancient DNA and archeology.
So it makes no difference if steppe ancestry is found to persist in Bronze Age Anatolia at a significant level, or if there's evidence of the spread of steppe ancestry into Anatolia via the Caucasus. These are all different issues that are being conflated by a lot of people.
@ Davidski
Can you do a post on current status of Slavs origins. There've been a few recent papers, incl one with Iron Age Ukraine data by Saag et al (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.05.24.595769v1.full.pdf)
@ Romulus
OK PIE came from Ganj Dareh and you're the father of Slavs. Ease up on the LSD
@CordedSlav
There's a lot of stuff coming soon that will settle the issue of Slavic origins.
We have to wait until it's released to the public and then I'll get to work on it.
Hello Davidski, sorry for the off-topic comment, can you do G25 coordinates for me?, I sent you email few days ago.
@GNT23
I can't. I'm on holidays and don't have the equipment with me.
@ Sam Elliot
''A few new Yamnaya ancient J2b L283 samples''
Fake News. For some reason, there is pressured desire for J2b haplo-Noobs to pretend their Caucasian -origin lineage is Yamnaya-related
@CordedSlav
I'm not endorsing the Harvard Hypothesis. Bronze work in Corded Ware did not come from Maykop or cross the Caucasus. It was in the Balkans long before and if it entered the Balkans from anywhere it was Western Anatolia.
Also my Trzciniec ancestors did invent Slavs, it's a fact. It was also a big mistake. That's why we abandoned Eastern Europe. Many still do.
''Bronze work in Corded Ware did not come from Maykop or cross the Caucasus. It was in the Balkans long before and if it entered the Balkans from anywhere it was Western Anatolia.''
I doubt the expansion of PIE was as simple as trading bronze axes
''Also my Trzciniec ancestors did invent Slavs, it's a fact. .''
Wow, I will venerate you alongside Cyril & Methodius.
But your comments suggest that you do not understand much about Slavic origins.
''It was also a big mistake. That's why we abandoned Eastern Europe. Many still do''
Who are 'we'' ? You mean after 1200 BC you left Eastern Europe and ended up in UK or Canada ?
### Admixture Proportions for Botlikh Population:
- **Georgia_Kotias.SG**: 39.50% ± 5.00%
- **Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya**: 46.80% ± 3.90%
- **Turkey_Catalhoyuk_N_Ceramic.SG**: 13.70% ± 2.90%
### Statistical Metrics:
- **Chi-Squared Value**: 14.87
- **P-Value**: 0.137
from this video
https://youtu.be/QeAzoNFt-VU?si=h1Aq6PclnGtZAlm0
What is the most likely geographic origin and genetic structure of the CHG population that contributed to Steppe Eneolithic? Apparently these people were different to those found in Georgia, so not entirely Kotias-like, but I've seen tons of conflicting information online with little actual answers.
@Tom
they lived in the Neolithic in the Nalchik region, but I don’t know where they came from, maybe Mesolithic Armenia, there is a gorge connecting the northern and southern Caucasus, right in the center of the mountains
https://i.ibb.co/r41sBY0/1727113900310.jpg
there is still the highest population density of all the regions of the foothills of the Caucasus, probably more people lived there in the Neolithic than in the neighboring regions of the Caucasus, there is a basin and fertile soil, it is humid and warm (of course, not like in Georgia and Transcaucasia)
https://i.ibb.co/LzVY3T5/1727113940052.jpg
A haplotype-based evolutionary history of barley domestication
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.12.18.628695v1
@ Tom
''What is the most likely geographic origin and genetic structure of the CHG population that contributed to Steppe Eneolithic? Apparently these people were different to those found in Georgia, so not entirely Kotias-like, but I've seen tons of conflicting information online with little actual answers.''
There is no single source, just a constant trickle of CHG and Iran-N like ancestry between 5500 and 3300 BC, which might have shifted in pace & taken on slightly different ratios of CHG:Iran ancestry, depending on time & place. So its both prominent yet underwhelming, with no single 'magic' source a/p Mr Funk's suggestion (in fact, Nalchik only gives a low pass). For even funnier suggestions refer Olympus Mon's 'Shulaveri-Shomu fleeing the snake people ''
@Tom
I think the commentator above misunderstood me when I wrote about the Neolithic of Nalchik, the Neolithic is what is older than about 5000BC (for the North Caucasus), before the steppe Eneolithic received additional mixtures like Aknashen-Arateshen - Mentesh - Chatal Huyuk, which by that time began to occupy the South Caucasus. This Neolithic of Nalchik did not have additional Anatolian Mesopotamian mixtures, but was similar to the people from the burial grounds of Progress - vonjuchka geographically they are in the same region as Nalchik. It is also interesting that this region and rivers belong to the Caspian Sea basin
https://i.ibb.co/FWjBBMF/1734961159452.jpg
A multi-proxy reconstruction of anthropogenic land use in southwest Asia at 6 kya: Combining archaeological, ethnographic and environmental datasets
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.quascirev.2024.109142
@David - "R1a and R1b aren't from West Asia..\. They only arrived there during the Bronze Age from Eastern Europe, and that includes the so called "basal clades".
I assume we're excluding V88 from this? I don't think V88 originated in West Asia either but I think it's pretty obvious it was at least present there prior to the Neolithic. Hence the broad distribution in North Africa.
"It hinges on the evidence of a migration from the steppe to Anatolia via the Balkans, and that evidence does now exist in ancient DNA and archeology."
Why does the steppe hypothesis hinge on a Balkan route? I think PIE originating in the steppe is much more clear than the route it took to Anatolia. (I agree these recent samples do support a Balkan route).
As much as it seems to bother Arsen's petty jealousies, these 'southern' populations must have come via Georgia, at least in part, because they all have extra CHG over PPN/ Mesopotamian/ Shulaveri Farmers, and Georgia/ SW Caucasus was the key refuge zone for CHG
Pre-Nalchik is an unconvincing source for the Berezhnovka-like profile, considering that Satanaj ~6100BC lacks CHG ancestry and Nalchik itself seemingly was archeologically subject to Volga influence as opposed to the reverse. Nalchik and the Piedmont Steppe samples are likely somewhat recent migrants from just slightly further north.
Nalchik is instead a reasonable enough source for the trace ANF ancestry in samples like SNG001 and PG2001.
@ Mr Funk / Arsen from GeneArchiver
''I think the commentator above misunderstood me when I wrote about the Neolithic of Nalchik, the Neolithic is what is older than about 5000BC (for the North Caucasus), before the steppe Eneolithic received additional mixtures like Aknashen-Arateshen - Mentesh - Chatal Huyuk, which by that time began to occupy the South Caucasus. This Neolithic of Nalchik did not have additional Anatolian Mesopotamian mixtures, but was similar to the people from the burial grounds of Progress - vonjuchka geographically they are in the same region as Nalchik. It is also interesting that this region and rivers belong to the Caspian Sea basin
https://i.ibb.co/FWjBBMF/1734961159452.jpg''
Your statement is confused because you did not read the articles and didn't understand the picture- dots you pasted in your link.
Nalchik definitely have PPN/ Mespotamian ancestry, as Zhur et al highlight in their article 'The Nalchik male genotype combines the genes of the Caucasus hunter-gatherers, the Eastern hunter-gatherers and the Pre-Pottery Neolithic (PPN) farmers of western Asia. ''
Moreover, Nalchik is quite different to Progress, Vonuchka and the rest of "LVC cluster', because NCK lack central Asian (TTK) ancestry whilst the former have relatively high proportions of it. Overall, it Nalchik contributed 20-30% ancestry to steppe Eneolithic (LVC) samples and ~ 8% to yamnaya, but it is expendable and any other CHG/PPN admixed population are appropriate in their place (such as Unakozovskaya/ Meshoko).
lastly, with regard to your map, the steppe populations all have excess CHG over PPN/ south Caucasian / Mesopotamian farmer ancestry. This means that an important role of transmission was played via Georgia/ SW Caucasus, which was the vital refuge zone for CHG groups. You need to put aside your petty jealousies and accept this evidence instead of pushing irrelevant claims from TikTok
In brief summary & rounded off
The difference between nalchik & Progress can be understood as
35% CHG
45% PPN
25% Khvalynsk
PG2001
25% CHG
25% PPN
25% Khvalynsk
25% TTK
Also, it is worth noting that Nalchik are local dead-ends, because they were mass replaced by Majkop-Unakozovskaya groups after 4000 bc (near disappearance of R1b-V1636 in north Caucasus, replaced by various j2a, J2b, T and L lineages from Fertile Crescent)
Finally as regard to Yamnaya, CW and other IE steppe groups, there is again no single or magic necessary source population for the Near Eastern ancestry, ''Progress'', ''Vonuchka'', 'LCV', 'BPV'', 'Zolotarevka', potatoes, potRtoes, tomatoes, armadillos, all more or less work and just varations of a similar mix.
@Ryan
R1b-V88 moved into Africa from Iberia.
There's no evidence that it was present in West Asia during the Neolithic, or that it moved from West Asia to Africa.
Also, the funny thing about Nalchik is that Zhur's "NL122" and Ghalichi's "NCK001" are supposed to both be from Grave 42. The former is low ANE, the latter is higher ANE.
NCK002 is lower quality so I'm not sure how helpful it is in resolving this.
I repeat once again I wrote - NALCHIK NEOLITHIC i did not write about the late Neolithic of Nalchik to which belong three samples from Nalchik, which we have on hand - NL122, and NCK001 and NCK002 which, as I said, are already certainly mixed with something from PPN, I do not know exactly what source, since I have not played with professional genetic utilities yet, but I think they will be the same as Steppe_N in the Gabru model, approximately 50/50 mixture of EHG / CHG
and they have already included cattle breeding (for example, Neolithic Chokh ,which could have been CHG with the effect of genetic drift or additionally mixed with Iran_N,and there was cattle breeding there in the 6th millennium, why shouldn’t the same be in Nalchik?)
Why doesn’t David give any of his comments? Previously, he wrote about the neoletian steppe CHG/EHG in a 50/50 ratio, which participated in Khvalynsk, but now he simply doesn’t write anything on this topic?
@ Ethan
''Also, the funny thing about Nalchik is that Zhur's "NL122" and Ghalichi's "NCK001" are supposed to both be from Grave 42. The former is low ANE, the latter is higher ANE.
NCK002 is lower quality so I'm not sure how helpful it is in resolving this.''
There's something funky about the new genome.
But you're right that if that community was dominanted by R1b-V1636, they would have some links with Progress, although a collateral male branch which doest not appear to have expanded.
@ Arsen
''I repeat once again I wrote - NALCHIK NEOLITHIC i did not write about the late Neolithic of Nalchik to which belong three samples from Nalchik, which we have on hand - NL122, and NCK001 and NCK002 which, as I said, are already certainly mixed with something from PPN, I do not know exactly what source, since I have not played with professional genetic utilities yet, but I think they will be the same as Steppe_N in the Gabru model, approximately 50/50 mixture of EHG / CHG
and they have already included cattle breeding (for example, Neolithic Chokh ,which could have been CHG with the effect of genetic drift or additionally mixed with Iran_N,and there was cattle breeding there in the 6th millennium, why shouldn’t the same be in Nalchik?)''
Your opinion that hunter-gatherers from Dagestan, who you claim to be a perfect 50/50% mix of EHG and CHG, and just happened to invent pastoralism without any form of contact or admixture with Mesopotamia is wishful thinking, not based on any samples or scientific evidence
In reality, the CHG-rich agro-pastoralists who produced Meshoko and contributed to Malchik & Progress came via Georgia (probably Obdishi-Darkveti horizon).
Curiously, the Spanish R1b-V88 which made it to Africa is linked to Continenza, Italy. There is also a central European branch which sporadically appear in TRB, Blatterhohle, etc; and a branch which is found in Gumelnita, Varma,. These link to the Dnieper group, and if anything were dispersing from the advance of Cucuteni farmers than anything else.
You are an amazing hypocrite, if someone writes words on your behalf that you did not say, then you pounce on the person with the latest insults, but at the same time you quote words and attribute to me what I did not say. Perhaps you are blind or too stupid and pass off your words as mine, where did I write that the admixture in chokh was 50/50 CHG ehg? I am writing about Nalchik in the Neolithic, people also lived there in the Neolithic, better than in chokh, and there are mountains and rivers and different animals, so I say perhaps people with the admixture CHG EHG lived there, who participated in later steppe populations. And they possibly had cattle breeding, which is not associated with Mesopotamia, but has either local or Iranian roots
Merry Christmas Davidski, Rob, Gaska, Gio, and everybody else too.
@Davidski
"@Ryan
R1b-V88 moved into Africa from Iberia.
There's no evidence that it was present in West Asia during the Neolithic, or that it moved from West Asia to Africa".
I of course agree with your last sentence. Was I to make the first fighy against the theory of the Levantinists about an origin of R-V88 in the Levant or Near East (Always for the same presupposition of the Ex Oriente lux until the Harvardian agenda, and exchanged many letters also with Cruciani who discovered the V SNPs and the same V88 who thought himself to an African or Middle Eastern origin), but, Always for my presupposition of the origin of R1b1 from the Villabrunas, I thought to Italy and demonstrated where there were the first R-V88 in the Sahara. I made also the hypothesis of a migration from Iberia, but just because 7500 Years ago happened the migration of Zilhao from Italy to Iberia and many orthers later. In fact hg R1b is unknown in Iberia in the Palaeolithic, whereas it was in Italy.
Actual aDNA of R-V88 have been found in central Europe, closer to Italy and not Iberia, but as for R-V1636 (other Cruciani's SNPs) I am waiting for samples in Italy.
I thank Rob for having written this: "Curiously, the Spanish R1b-V88 which made it to Africa is linked to Continenza, Italy. There is also a central European branch which sporadically appear in TRB, Blatterhohle, etc; and a branch which is found in Gumelnita, Varma,. These link to the Dnieper group, and if anything were dispersing from the advance of Cucuteni farmers than anything else".
@Romulus the I2a L233+ Proto Balto-Slav, layer of Corded Ware Women
I thank you for having thought to me, whoever you are, but of course I dedicated my life not only to genetics in these last 20 Years, but to literature, history, philosophy etc, and I read all the books about religion and I am not a believer, because also the feasts have a genetics and derived from other ancestors. Everyone knows that "Jesus" wasn't born on 25 December (Dies Natalis Solis Invicti) and also about his uniparental markers they have many doubts.
@ Romulus
Thanks same to you & All
@ Mr Funk
Don’t get offended by the facts, and it’s not my fault we can’t entirely understand what your Google -translated random speculations - which you pass off as fact- actually mean. Btw the Zagros region is part of the PPN sphere .
it turns out Nalchik is not V1636, it is from a parallel branch that has a common ancestor R-BY15337 who lived approximately 12,000 BCE, at least this is what familytreedna claims
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-BY15337/tree
where were they hiding from 12,000 to 5,000 BC? 🤕
Thank you Romulus, Merry Christmas to everyone.
In spite of everything, Europe is still Christian
😨
@ Davidski
''There's a lot of stuff coming soon that will settle the issue of Slavic origins.
We have to wait until it's released to the public and then I'll get to work on it.''
Great, yes potentially a lot of Slavic -related aDNA hopefully for 2025.
Hopefully we find out progenitor of R1a-M417 as well, the Vorezhneh Don and Usatove leads are promising.
@ Mr Funk
''it turns out Nalchik is not V1636, it is from a parallel branch that has a common ancestor R-BY15337 who lived approximately 12,000 BCE, at least this is what familytreedna claims
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-BY15337/tree''
Hhm he could actually be V1636, but lower coverage genomes are not fully resolved, sometimes looking as if they are 'basal' or parallel. Either way, they are from east Europe
_
Merry Christmas to all the Patriots
@CordedSlav
Wow😰
@David - an Iberia to Sudan migration seems rather implausible don’t you think?
We V88 was incorporated very early into the Neolithic expansion into Europe at the very least, and that it was present in the Balkans before the Neolithic. Getting swept up into the Neolithic expansion as it passed through the Balkans and spreading with Cardial Pottery to both Iberia and North Africa in paraelle is more plausible to me than Iberia to the whole of the Sahel.
If memory serves (I’m on my
phone so having a hard time checking) we have a Barcin individual with extra Iron Gates ancestry in the Chalcolithic (or was it early Bronze Age) in this Anatolia paper? And we have V1636 in eastern Anatolia from the Chalcolithic I think as well?
So it seems why couldn’t whatever process or processes was/were bringing Iron Gates ancestry to Barcin and wierd R1b branches to eastern Anatolia couldn’t bring V88 to West Asia during or prior to the Neolithic?
No smoking gun of course… Balkans is probably a more likely place for V88 to get absorbed into Neolithic cultures, but it seems more likely than Iberia to North Africa, at least to areas beyond Berber influence.
@David - Rereading the Pinarbasi paper, and it’s worth noting that they model Iron Gates as getting 25.8% of its ancestry from a population related to Pinarbasi but lacking Pinarbasi’s
Basal Eurasian ancestry. That’s in adition to another 62.9% Villabruna/WHG ancestry and 11% EHG ancestry. They suggest two-way gene flow between the Balkans and Anatolia.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-09209-7
Here is what the gpt chat replied about the first cattle breeding in the Caucasus
---
### The Origins of Animal Husbandry in the North Caucasus
**1. Early Beginnings in the Central Caucasus Foothills**
The earliest evidence of animal husbandry in the North Caucasus dates back to around **5800–5600 BCE**. This innovation first took root in the foothills of the Central Caucasus, where archaeological excavations uncovered remains of domesticated animals and clear traces of their use for food and other purposes.
**2. Expansion to the Steppe Zones**
By **5500–5300 BCE**, animal husbandry spread northward into the steppe regions, including modern-day Kuban. These areas provided vast open pastures, making them ideal for the practice to flourish.
**3. Maykop Culture and Intensification**
During the Maykop culture period (circa **3700–3000 BCE**), animal husbandry became a central component of the economy. Evidence suggests a shift towards large-scale breeding of cattle, sheep, and goats, with animals being used for both food and labor.
**Key Takeaway**
The foothills of the Central Caucasus served as the cradle of animal husbandry in the region, with its gradual expansion into the steppes shaping the economic and cultural landscapes of the North Caucasus by the early Bronze Age.
---
if anything, he uses external links.
Let's imagine this situation: we start digging a Neolithic burial site from the North Caucasus, or to be more precise, cattle breeders, and bam, we stumble upon a couple dozen ancient skeletons. What do you think is the probability that among them there will be individuals from the R-BY15337 subbranch, as well as something like ancestors for R1b-M269?
if someone answers in a sarcastic manner I will break their jaw 🙂
ChatGPT appears to have been brainwashed by Arsen, the datings are far too early :)
It's a shame that there is a lack of good quality scientific studies from the northern Caucasus, but 5000 bc seems a reasonable date for the earliest agro-pastorali communities. Nalchik needs to be checked for RE, and Meshoko dates from 4700 BC onward. Everything prior to this are just hunter-gatherers, as we now know from Satanay cave.
The 'neolithic' layers from Chokh date after 3000 bc, acc. to Amirkhanov's new C14 data, with a big 'gap' from the hunter-gatherer period sites.
@ Ryan
How does the absence of R1b-V88 in Neolithic (or any other period) Anatolia and the Near East sit with your theory ?
when I asked the chat about cattle breeding in the Caucasus, I didn't ask about the exact local location of cattle breeding monuments, I asked all over the northern Caucasus, but nevertheless, chat-gpity doesn't say a word about Chokh, it talks about the central Caucasus.
it doesn't make up this information, it didn't come up with it off the top of its head, it scans the entire Internet, any mentions of cattle breeding in the Caucasus, all articles, all publications. that's why it's a convenient thing.
I don't know where you got the information about the Neolithic in Chokh, which starts from 3000 BC. Chokh is a multi-layered monument, it starts from the Upper Paleolithic, ending before the Iron Age. there the layers go almost without a break.
@ Mr Funk
''when I asked the chat about cattle breeding in the Caucasus, I didn't ask about the exact local location of cattle breeding monuments, I asked all over the northern Caucasus, but nevertheless, chat-gpity doesn't say a word about Chokh, it talks about the central Caucasus.
it doesn't make up this information, it didn't come up with it off the top of its head, it scans the entire Internet, any mentions of cattle breeding in the Caucasus, all articles, all publications. that's why it's a convenient thing.
I don't know where you got the information about the Neolithic in Chokh, which starts from 3000 BC. Chokh is a multi-layered monument, it starts from the Upper Paleolithic, ending before the Iron Age. there the layers go almost without a break.''
You can't have a serious debate by quoting chatGPT. Firstly, you have not understood the point that 'Central Caucasia' generally refers to Armenia, Georgia, and Azerbaijan. Secondly, chatGPT cannot intelligently evaluate the the substance & authenticity of what the articles they summarised have claimed, as neither can you. The table from Amirkhanov's ХРОНОЛОГИЯ КУЛЬТУРНЫХ ОТЛОЖЕНИЙ ЧОХСКОГО МНОГОСЛОЙНОГО ПОСЕЛЕНИЯ shows a large gap between 6000 and 3000 BC. Your suggestion that Chokh has continuous habitation from the Paleolithic to the Iron Age is dumb, no site in the world has such continuity.
If you want to show 6000 bc pastoralists in the northern Caucasus, then show primary evidence - sites, sample IDs and dates.
@Rob - Not well but we don’t have an abundance of samples either. Like I said the Balkans route is probably more solid.
Merry Christmas all.
😧👈what a brain this man has, he writes such smartthings, he is probably the smartest in Europe
Are there any Ancient Human Samples from Perm and Yekaterinburg areas ? Who were the people who made the Shigir Idol ?
@ Mr Funk
''Let's imagine this situation: we start digging a Neolithic burial site from the North Caucasus, or to be more precise, cattle breeders, and bam, we stumble upon a couple dozen ancient skeletons. What do you think is the probability that among them there will be individuals from the R-BY15337 subbranch, as well as something like ancestors for R1b-M269?
if someone answers in a sarcastic manner I will break their jaw 🙂''
Who do you think you are coming onto a blog for Europeans, presuming to educate us about our history and then threatening us for laughing at your silly theories ? It looks like you don't even have a grip of your own regional history.
R1 is from Eastern Europe and before that Siberia, not the Caucasus or Middle East. R1b-M269 reached the north Caucasus when Yamnaya moved into those lands. Frankly I don't care as I'm more interested in R1a-M17, but I'm sure somebody can explain to you why your theory is probably untenable based on the calculated expansion dates of M269. On the other hand, whatever early farmers lived in the north Caucasus (again I don't care what date you claim, because it's irrelevant) are going to be linked to the Near East, something under Y-hg J2 seems the most likely probability.
@CordedSlav
Calm down, it's just a joke.
Thanks for answering, when do you think I could ask you again?, I need proper coordinates.
in general, what is the most plausible model for different EHG groups? for those from Peschanitsa, Sidelkino, Minino, Karelia, as well as from Satanay and Labazi (I6910)? could you create a table of qpadm graphs?
where they could have mixed, where a group of hunters from Siberia successfully met a group of hunters from Europe, it must have been some kind of mountainous region or river, what do you think?
@GNT23
At this time I'm only running ancient samples in the G25.
It's not currently available for individuals. We'll see what happens next year.
@ Ryan
“ Not well but we don’t have an abundance of samples either. Like I said the Balkans route is probably more solid.”
I think V88 moved into Northern Africa via Iberia, because it is present there and there is archaeological and autosomic evidence for movement Iberia Cardial -> Morocco Neolithic
Anatolia Neolithic is heavily sampled btw
@Rob - it’s present in the Balkans too and earlier than Iberia. Not to mention Central Europe during the Neolithic. Are those from Iberian sources too?
Is there any autosomic evidence for Iberia->Morroco->Sudan or Cameroon? I already said I’d buy an Iberian origin for Berbers. Make the case for an Iberian origin for V88 in Chadic and Nilo-Saharan populations (for example)
@Ryan
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/10/global-distributions-of-lactase.html
@David - that suggests European ancestry for the Chadic populations, but not necessarily Iberian I would think?
I took a quick look at the supplementals though and there are a lot of populations with decent amounts of R1b and 0 of the European version of lactase persistence in that paper though. Im not saying that rules out a Balkan or Iberian route but it doesn’t really support it either I would think?
Still on my phone while I’m away for Christmas - I can break down the populations I’m referring to better when I’m back home tomorrow. Not trying to be vague - it’s just not easy to flip between papers on an iPhone.
@Ryan
On that link to the post that David shared, I saw your questions, they are the same as you asked here, that is, for 7 years you have not found anything about this issue, how R1b got to Africa ?
@ Ryan
Why would Berbers be from Iberia if they speak Afro-Asiatic and bear E-M78?
I think the west Asian entry for V88 was prominent a few years ago because of the now debunked theory that R1b as a whole was from Western Asia, but it could be a small founder effect from Northern Africa hitching along in Chadic ethnogenesis. But it’s not something I have strong conviction about
In Europe, V88 is from hunters in Lepeneki Vir and the dereivka region. A handful then moved to Italy, Iberia and Central Europe with farmers
@Rob
"In Europe, V88 is from hunters in Lepeneki Vir and the dereivka region. A handful then moved to Italy, Iberia and Central Europe with farmers".
Of course it is possible, but R-L761 (15105 BCE) > PF6323 (14433 BCE) > V88 (11737 BCE) Padina 5235 (about 8900 BCE) i.e. 5000 years after Villabruna (Italy).
I discussed with ChatGPT-4o the potential significance of knot writing in historical contexts, and we reached a consensus on its possible role in preserving ancient traditions and influencing language dating, as summarized in the conclusions below. Nothing prevents Sredny Stog from being Indo-Slavic IMO.
Part1
“Your reflections on knot writing as a potentially underestimated means of recording information in the past are very intriguing and could shed new light on the dating of languages and their connections. Let me address these points step by step, incorporating your arguments and the current scholarly perspective.
________________________________________
1. Knot writing as a forgotten form of recording
If various forms of knot writing were used throughout Eurasia, this would imply the existence of a universal method of recording information that might have been as significant as traditional writing systems (e.g., alphabets or logograms). Here are some implications:
• Lost traces of knot writing: Knot writing, being made from organic materials (e.g., cords, fibers), left few permanent traces in archaeology. Thus, it may have been widespread but forgotten over time.
• Potential significance: If religious poems, genealogies, and other key information were recorded using knots, it would mean that cultures with such systems were more advanced in information storage than previously thought.
________________________________________
2. Dating languages and the absence of writing
The argument that a language cannot be "old" because it lacked writing is often used but has limitations:
• Writing as a criterion of historicity: Writing serves as evidence that a language existed at a certain point in time, but it is not the sole criterion for assessing its age. Languages existed long before the invention of any form of writing, and many languages never developed their own writing systems.
• Knot-based forms of writing: If knots are considered a valid form of writing, this could revise the dating of languages and their literary traditions. Religious poems recorded in this way might have origins much older than currently assumed.
________________________________________
3. Similarities in religious terms between Slavic languages and Vedic Sanskrit
The similarity of religious terms between Slavic languages and Vedic Sanskrit could indicate a shared cultural heritage. Considering the possibility of knot writing, we can propose several hypotheses:
• Shared Indo-European roots: Slavic languages and Sanskrit stem from the same Indo-European linguistic group. Religious terminology may have been transmitted both orally and through simple recording systems, such as knots.
• Religious poems: Religious poems, like Vedic hymns or Slavic ritual songs, may have been supported by knots as mnemonic tools. This could explain their ancient character and durability in transmission.
• Migration and cultural contact: Migrations and cultural exchange among Indo-European groups may have preserved shared religious terminology, with knot-based systems potentially playing a role in this preservation".
Part 2
"4. Religious poems and the antiquity of traditions
Religious poems, such as Vedic hymns or Slavic ritual songs, could have been transmitted for millennia. Here's how knot writing might have contributed to their preservation:
• Birth of mnemonic systems: Knot writing could have served as a bridge between oral culture and literacy. Knots helped reciters remember long texts, which was particularly important in religious traditions.
• Transition to phonetic writing: As phonetic writing systems (e.g., alphabets) developed, knot-based forms of recording may have gradually disappeared, but their earlier role in preserving information should not be overlooked.
________________________________________
5. Impact on modern linguistic and cultural studies
If knot writing were confirmed to have been widely used, it would significantly impact contemporary research:
• Rewriting the history of writing: The history of writing would need to include knot systems as equally important to graphic scripts.
• New dating methods: The dating of languages and literary traditions would need to consider periods during which non-graphic writing systems were used.
• Understanding Indo-European heritage: Shared elements in religious traditions could be explained as the result of long-term information transmission, aided by knot-based systems.
________________________________________
Conclusion
The hypothesis that knot writing was widely used in northern Eurasia and that religious poems recorded in this way could be ancient is fascinating and opens up new avenues for research. It could explain:
1. Similarities in terminology between Slavic languages and Sanskrit as a result of a shared, very old heritage.
2. The endurance of religious traditions due to mnemonic systems and possible forms of knot writing.
3. The need to revise how we date languages and literary traditions, taking into account systems other than conventional forms of writing.
While there is currently no direct evidence for large-scale use of knot writing in northern Eurasia, your hypothesis is an important prompt for further interdisciplinary research. If you’re interested in exploring this topic further, additional information could be sought in historical, archaeological, and linguistic literature.
One of the more recent theories on V88 is arriving with Baggara Arabs, as per the 2018 paper by Shriner. I didn't read this one, but I probably should. This would suggest it arrived in the Levant and N.Africa after the Neolithic, so in the Bronze Age along with M269, but perhaps from a different source. (ie: Central Med, vs M269 which would appear to be from Balkans) Given that we haven't seen V88 in any Levantine remains, it might make sense.
Chinese (Mandarin) in the basal branch R-L754, probably got from ANE to South East Asia
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L754/
The heading "FSB accused the convict for the espionage of the American in collecting genetic data of Russians"
https://www.moscowtimes.ru/2024/12/27/fsb-obvinila-osuzhdennogo-za-shpionazh-amerikantsa-v-sbore-geneticheskih-dannih-rossiyan-a151583
Of course, I apologize for political posts and posts not related to the topic, but why does the United States genetic data of Russians for what does it give them?
There are hundreds of Anatolian samples from the neolithic to the bronze age and R-V88 never shows up. Ditto for the Levant and other parts of the near east.
Balkan/Eastern European R-V88 are mostly dead-ends.
Phylogenetically, African R-V88 looks to be closer to neolithic Spanish or Italian clades, and probably the former:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-FGC21027/tree
@Mr Funk
You're missing the point.
The United States doesn't really need Russian DNA. Russia needs United States citizens to trade for Russians.
@Davidski
actually, it sounds logical) to exchange this "genetic spy" for another "Lord of War", or whatever the name of that man played by Nicholas Cage was
for some reason I didn't think about it, and I'm sure no one would have guessed in this blog, which proves that you are the king of logical thinking
@Rob
"Everything you writ is false, just like your cousin Gabru. As labelled, this new sample is NEW, meaning its as yet unresolved. There's no ANE in southeast Asia".
Why "unresolved"?
It seems it is a R-L754* sample, deeply tested in China and with these SNPs at the L754* level. An old origin from Siberia or nearby is likely.
SNPs currently defining R-L754
CTS3063 / V2515 / F1811
L761 / PF6258 / YSC0000266
L820 / PF6262 / YSC0000211 / V4199
PF6263
PF6271
Y418(H) H
YSC0000224 / PF6266 / L1345
YSC0001279 / CTS4244 / PF6257 / V2997
CTS8436 / PF6259
L754 / PF6269 / YSC0000022
PF6249
Y409 / FGC36
CTS8612 / PF6260
CTS9972 / PF6261 / V3867
Y108 / FGC41 / M12190 / V1501
A702
Of course it is negative for the downstream SNPs. We are waiting for the complete exam by YFull.
@ Mr Funk
''Chinese (Mandarin) in the basal branch R-L754, probably got from ANE to South East Asia
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L754/''
This is not correct, it is a new sample which has not been analysed fully
It is probably PH-55 from Xiongnu
There is no “basal L754” in Asia or even Siberia
@ Gio
“ seems it is a R-L754* sample, deeply tested in China and with these SNPs at the L754* level. An old origin from Siberia or nearby is likely.””
No, I bet that individual will soon be resolved into a derived subclade such as PH155 or similar
Also, it’s silly for you to claim that L754 is from Siberia when the “geographic MRCA” is in Eastern Europe. Although R.* arose in Siberia, the lineage virtually disappeared there after 15000 bp.
@Rob
"Bullcrap. There’s no “basal L754” anywhere. And technically speaking, L754 has a TMRCA in east Europe, not Siberia
It’s just as yet still in analysis. yFull has an annoying habit of putting unsettled individuals as basal, it fools the weak minded
I’m surprised that a veteran of R1b study is making the kind of stupid comments you’d expect from RMS and Joshson Stevenstein"
Bullcrap… weak minded… stupid comments… I know that the Macedonian shepherds speak so, but this isn't my Language. I agree about Stevenstein and all people who are dead Walking, but I said that I am waiting for the complete exam by YFull, anyway that some old line has survived isn't impossible, because we have other line in central Asia, and China is large and Chinese many...
@Rob
We have already a line downstream R-L754 (xL761) marked through the SNPs FTE at FTDNA and the test of YF133691 comes from the Chinese 23mofeng, thus you should look at their tree,,,
@ Gio
You waste time telling us of your STR stories, none of which were ever correct because neither R, nor I nor J come from Italy, and love letters to men
Take your pills , grandpa
@Rob
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-FTE1/story
@Rob
"@ Gio
You waste time telling us of your STR stories, none of which were ever correct because neither R, nor I nor J come from Italy, and love letters to men
Take your pills , grandpa"
Yes, a grandpa with 7.4 inches, and all I wrote about STRs is proved. We'll see about Villabruna, but about I-M223 (is it yours?) no doubt.
The new R-FTE1 individual from China is from the southeasternmost settlement in Guangling County, Datong, Shanxi, on the western side of a mountain ridge that separates it from Yu County, Zhangjiakou, Hebei. It is basically an (extended) family farm in a mountainous area on the northern fringe of China proper. In the first millennium BC, this area has been occupied by states founded by peoples whom the Chinese called 白狄 Baidi ("White Northern-Barbarians, White D(i)ek").
OK
This is what ancient DNA shows for the branches of L754
V88 (PF6323) - East Europe
L389 - V1636 - East Europe
- P297 East Europe
If FTE1 gets verified in Siberia or China by ancient DNA, fine. It still means that L761 has an MRCA in east Europe
@Ebizur
if he is from northern China, from a mountainous province, and the Gobi desert is not far from there, then maybe, probably, he is related to the Tarim people, his male chromosome, the Tarim people were displaced by the Tocharians, etc.
I mean that the Tarimians are something like WSHG, that is, to a greater extent they should have ANE origin, from there it is probably a basal clade
@ Gio
“ We'll see about Villabruna, but about I-M223 (is it yours?) no doubt.”
How can R1b be from both Italy and Siberia ?
Hg I migrated to Italy during the ice age. Some clades might have a geographic MRCA in the Po-Adriatic region.
@Rob
"How can R1b be from both Italy and Siberia ?
Hg I migrated to Italy during the ice age. Some clades might have a geographic MRCA in the Po-Adriatic region".
If we find R-L754-FTE1 in Asia and R-L754-L761 (Villabruna) in Italy there is nothing strange: they were the hunter-gatherers of the Siberian corridor who separated about 17000 Years ago.
When I had been speaking of the Adriatic, emerged before the flood, and how from that derived the pile dwellers of Italy, the Alpine region and later Switzerland, you probabvly were among the shepherds in Macedonia yet and don't forget that Latin Language derived just from the pile dwellers…
by the way, Christopher Nolan wants to make a historical film about the Odyssey, and this film promises to be the most expensive in his career, that is, he wants to invest in that historical film in a good way, I will just remind you that Nolan has some of the most expensive films in cinema, which means this picture promises to be more epic than a film about Alexander the Great or a gladiator
for me, this film is interesting because in the epic "Odyssey" in addition to other peoples, the Amazons are mentioned, which many geographers localize between the Gelas, Leges and Caucasian Albanians, that is, somewhere in Dagestan (I think these were Sarmatian Scythian women who were left without husbands)
if the film is a success, then there will be historical interest in ancient Anatolia, Greece, the Caucasus 🙂
+Many knuckleheads have been saying for years that it is absolutely impossible to find R1b-M269 in the neolithic cultures of Old Europe, but maybe the Balkans are the solution to solve the enigma. Here you have another sample of this lineage in the Gumelnita-Karanovo culture, now in Romania (by the way perfectly dated). As I have always said "ex occidente lux", the M269 of the Caucasus do not come from the Volga but from the Balkans
PIE064 (4.499 BCE)-Pietrele, Gumelnita culture, Bulgaria-R1b1a1b-PF6517-M269
-Regarding R1b-V88-Chad genetic diversity reveals an African history marked by multiple holocene Eurasian migrations-M.Haber (2016)-"We found evidence of early Eurasian backflow to Africa in people speaking the unclassified isolate Laal language in southern Chad and estimate from linkage-disequilibrium decay that this occurred 4,750–7,200 years ago. It brought to Africa a Y chromosome lineage (R1b-V88) whose closest relatives are widespread in present-day Eurasia; we estimate from sequence data that the Chad R1b-V88 Y chromosomes coalesced 5,700–7,300 years ago. This migration could thus have originated among Near Eastern farmers during the African Humid Period"
Near Eastern farmers? I doubt it, it has already been demonstrated that European migrations brought the Neolithic way of life to North Africa. The path could have been Iberia-Morocco, Sicily-Sardinia>Tunisia-Algeria or Balkans>Egypt-Libya and then cross the Sahara. It has also been demonstrated the Balcanic origin of this marker and its abundance among the EHGs of Ukraine.
-And regarding the stupidity of an origin of R1b-L754 in China, it is not for intelligent people to interpret modern samples as indications of the geographical origin of a marker that has 20,000 years of history. Maybe if people would study or at least understand what the epigravetian culture was, they would also draw intelligent conclusions about the origin of this lineage.
@Gaska
Target: ROU_Gumelnița_En:PIE064__BC_4499__Cov_22.43%
Distance: 1.7462% / 0.01746184 | R3P
52.2 Turkey_N
40.0 HUN_N_Tisza_Gorzsa_Cukormajor
7.8 Russia_Khvalynsk_Eneolithic_low
I think the best analysis of I1 so far has been made by Karl O. Högström in his text The Origins of the Vanir that can be found on Academia.edu where he argues that the men with I1 originally belonged to a mercantile group/cast which seems to be supported by the recent archaeogenetic finds from Cyprus reported by Yediay et al. 2024.
The origins of the Vanir
https://www.academia.edu/101809934/The_origins_of_the_Vanir
This excerpt by Engedal (2010) is also interesting:
Engedal, Ørjan (2010.) The Bronze Age of Northwestern Scandinavia, PhD Thesis, Bergen University.
Engedal (2010, p. 240, map 24): "The NW-Alpine network of the 18th-17th century, the one that brought Alpine axes to Central Sweden and Vevang on the western coast of Norway, might actually have been linked via Mycenae, Byblos and Cyprus to the Old Assyrian Karoum-network. Encounters with Mediterranean traders might thus have opened the eyes of ambitious individuals north of the Alps, to what could be achieved by moving large amounts of goods the long way from location B to C, and by making sure that their movements were in resonance with the activities of people in locations A and D."
The other texts by Karl O. Högström, like the one about Hunnic presence in Scandinavia or the one about Q-L804, are also illuminating.
@Gaska
“Near Eastern farmers? I doubt it, it has already been demonstrated that European migrations brought the Neolithic way of life to North Africa. The path could have been Iberia-Morocco, Sicily-Sardinia>Tunisia-Algeria or Balkans>Egypt-Libya and then cross the Sahara. It has also been demonstrated the Balcanic origin of this marker and its abundance among the EHGs of Ukraine.
-And regarding the stupidity of an origin of R1b-L754 in China, it is not for intelligent people to interpret modern samples as indications of the geographical origin of a marker that has 20,000 years of history. Maybe if people would study or at least understand what the epigravetian culture was, they would also draw intelligent conclusions about the origin of this lineage”.
If Gaska said which his real name is, like mine from my birth (5 March 1948), I could say where he was, and what he wrote, when I spoke about R-V88 with the same Fulvio Cruciani, the discoverer of the SNP V88, but about that I spoke a lot already above.
That the origin of hg R1b could be in the Siberian corridor is demonstrated from hg P above all in South Eastern Asia, the Mal’ta boy 24000 years ago, the brother R1a very likely from eastern Europe and not western one, the presence of the subclade R-L754-FTE1 in Uzbekistan and now in China from probably Siberian hunter-gatherers. If we knew the real name of Gaska I could say where he was when I wrote about Joshi from India, probably one of these R-L754-FTE1…
That hg I-M223 was in Italy during all the Palaeolithic is demonstrated from Tagliente 2 and now this sample from Apulia the same of the Villabruna cluster already 17000 years ago (this said also fo Rob).
I think people use the word 'basal' in different ways. FTE-1 is a parallel clade within L754, not necessary basal to it.
These finds are definitely great but need to be fixed with more aDNA, to figure how they got to where they did and what their timing is. The finds of PH155 in Inner Asia also point to a modest relatively recent expansion.
@ Ebizur
''the new R-FTE1 individual from China is from the southeasternmost settlement in Guangling County, Datong, Shanxi, on the western side of a mountain ridge that separates it from Yu County, Zhangjiakou..
Amazing info, thanks
@ Rob
''Although R.* arose in Siberia, the lineage virtually disappeared there after 15000 bp.''
What happened there ?
@ Archaeo-genetica
''The origins of the Vanir
https://www.academia.edu/101809934/The_origins_of_the_Vanir''
Nice, thanks I'll check that out
I'll also came across this which deals with it
''https://genomicatlas.org/2023/10/26/the-genetic-origin-of-the-goths/'
@CordedSlav
"I think people use the word 'basal' in different ways. FTE-1 is a parallel clade within L754, not necessary basal to it".
You are right, but nothing changes, in fact I wrote that R-PH155 could be the uniqaue subclade of R1b survived so far whose origin was in Asia and not Europe, even though the samples survived have the MRCA many thousands of years after its birth, but these samples FTE are in favour of Asia now.
N93357 Joshi Bhaskar Dinkar Joshi, 1910-1997 R-FTB14
Gio wrote,
"That the origin of hg R1b could be in the Siberian corridor is demonstrated from hg P above all in South Eastern Asia, the Mal’ta boy 24000 years ago, the brother R1a very likely from eastern Europe and not western one, the presence of the subclade R-L754-FTE1 in Uzbekistan and now in China from probably Siberian hunter-gatherers. If we knew the real name of Gaska I could say where he was when I wrote about Joshi from India, probably one of these R-L754-FTE1…"
FTDNA currently has two individuals (one from Tajikistan and one from India) tabulated under R-L754 > R-FTE1. China's 23mofang currently has five individuals (including one Mr. Pu from Maiji District of Tianshui, Gansu and one Mr. Fang from Guangling County of Datong, Shanxi) tabulated under R-L754 > R-FTE1. R-FTE1 shares the L754 SNP in common with R-V88, R-V1636, R-M478, and R-M269 vis-à-vis R-BY14355, the latter clade being positive for M343 but negative for L754. R-FTE1 is supposed to be R-L754+, R-L761-.
Mr. Joshi from India is L754-, BY14355+, PH155-, FTB1+, FTB14+ according to his entry in the R1b Basal Subclades project at FTDNA (kit number N93357). In other words, Mr. Joshi should belong to a PH155-negative branch (R-FTB1) of R-BY14355. The R-BY14355 clade is even more basal than R-FTE1.
@Ebizur
"FTDNA currently has two individuals (one from Tajikistan and one from India) tabulated under R-L754 > R-FTE1. China's 23mofang currently has five individuals (including one Mr. Pu from Maiji District of Tianshui, Gansu and one Mr. Fang from Guangling County of Datong, Shanxi) tabulated under R-L754 > R-FTE1. R-FTE1 shares the L754 SNP in common with R-V88, R-V1636, R-M478, and R-M269 vis-à-vis R-BY14355, the latter clade being positive for M343 but negative for L754. R-FTE1 is supposed to be R-L754+, R-L761-.
Mr. Joshi from India is L754-, BY14355+, PH155-, FTB1+, FTB14+ according to his entry in the R1b Basal Subclades project at FTDNA (kit number N93357). In other words, Mr. Joshi should belong to a PH155-negative branch (R-FTB1) of R-BY14355. The R-BY14355 clade is even more basal than R-FTE1".
Ebizur, I thank you for your detailed exam, I'll study it. Unfortunately it is more and more difficult to get this data now. When I began my analyses we have the SMGF data of the Mormons and even 23andMe was easier to have access etc. Many projects of the same FTDNA are private or the same YFull projects… so what I made I made, and we had only the STRs then, for that I am stll confident, because, for instance about R-V1636, I found the 5 known haplotypes in Italy and not elsewhere, and we had only about 17 STRs, and of course many tests are fake, et pour cause. But I have been confident in YFull, also for this last sample from China, and am waiting for their exam, but the data, if he doesn't enter a project and we have access, couldn't be checked.
@ Corded
''''Although R.* arose in Siberia, the lineage virtually disappeared there after 15000 bp.''
What happened there ?''
Late Paleolithic migrations to Europe and West Asia (Iran). Neo-ANE have additional East Asian admixture, and so far Mesolithic Siberians and Central Asian HG have been Y-hg Q and C. R1b-PH155 & FTE-1 are probably remnants of the early ANE, perhaps from somewhere in centrtal Asia.
@ Archaeo-genetica
''The origins of the Vanir
https://www.academia.edu/101809934/The_origins_of_the_Vanir''
Looks good.
@Ned
"Nobody supporting the Balkan Trek has explained how small groups of hunter-gatherers and shepherds achieved what they did amongst technologically more advanced and more populous farmers before the invention of the waggon and ability to travel overland between rivers."
The issue is that the complete Balkans society collapsed and that the Steppe people prevailed. The reasons for that collapse? I have no clue. But in such a scenario small groups can become massively more important than initially suspected.
We know from genetics small steppe groups were in the area. We also know post collapse steppe markers are all over the archaeological record.
I understand, but can you do an exception for the time being?,I don't want to pay for illustrative new coordinates, you can't even use them in vahaduo,so I rather pay for your coordinates. Thank you for answering.
Question for those who know, there is a sample from Western Anatolia of the early Bronze Age, Isparta I2495, determined by the Y chromosome as J1-Z1828*
https://amtdb.org/sample/I2495
So it turns out that it is in the same branch as the Khvalynsk J1-Z1828?
Autosomal it is a mixture of Kura Araksa and Balkan
@GNT23
Nothing is set up at the moment. There's no payment option.
I could email you the raw file that needs coordinates and pay with Paypal if that's ok with you and you have one, but I really need proper coordinates, thanks again.
“ Question for those who know, there is a sample from Western Anatolia of the early Bronze Age, Isparta I2495, determined by the Y chromosome as J1-Z1828*
https://amtdb.org/sample/I2495
So it turns out that it is in the same branch as the Khvalynsk J1-Z1828?“
I’m not sure about the new yet to be released Khvalynsk data, but I2495 belongs to the Kura Araxes clade. All phylogenetic affinities are with KAx males and those from Shah Tepe, Iran. There’s no clear link to Eneolithic steppe apart from on Afanasievo individual from Mongolia, representing male mediated CHG input
Simple 2 source model for...
Target: Kazakhstan_Sarmatian_IA
Distance: 1.3523% / 0.01352301
55.0 Kazakhstan_MLBA_OyDzhaylau
45.0 Kazakhstan_LBA_Molaly
Target: Kazakhstan_Sarmatian_IA
Distance: 1.0757% / 0.01075670
58.0 Russia_BA_SrubnayaAlakul
42.0 Kazakhstan_LBA_Molaly
Molaly
Target: Kazakhstan_LBA_Molaly:I3769__BC_1200__Cov_63.66%
Distance: 1.5667% / 0.01566744
43.4 Kazakhstan_MLBA_OyDzhaylau
29.2 Mongolia_LBA_Khovsgol_6
27.4 Uzbekistan_Bustan_BA
Re: Illustrative DNA
After a short negotiation, they purchased a licence to use my tools. I consider the matter closed.
I feel Khvalynsk blood flows in me
From the supp info:
"The Chalcolithic individuals from Western Anatolia show a distinct mixture of farmer components, such as those from Tepecik and Barçın, differing from the rest of Anatolia. This suggests a potential additional farmer source, possibly from the Balkans or unsampled farmer populations from Anatolia. Previously, we detected a small proportion of CHG and EHG ancestry in one Chalcolithic individual from Ilıpınar (I1584). We also identified Barçın ancestry in one Middle Bronze Age individual from Kalehöyük (MA2203), associated with a Hittite context, as well as in Iron Age individuals, indicating western connections."
There it is.
Hello everyone, I am Ajeje Brazorf, and I manage a list of all the ancient Global25 samples with date and coverage for each of them. I see too many people using outdated versions, so I'm leaving the new one here so you can stay up to date!
G25 Ancients
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0q39lrsynq7prjc7mm8gq/G25-Ancients.txt?rlkey=33i5tycf3nd6glv1w7z6dleco&st=tz5ppp6c&dl=0
G25 Ancients Undated
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gyeqmlps14bk1w2uz1tdc/G25-Ancients-Undated.txt?rlkey=lycfukqvaodlqta02wivxmt3g&st=ab3ji6nx&dl=0
Family tree service MyHeritage to leave Russia. Russians' data to be deleted
https://meduza.io/news/2024/12/31/servis-myheritage-dlya-sostavleniya-genealogicheskogo-dreva-uydet-iz-rossii-dannye-rossiyan-udalyat
🎄🥳💥🎇🎆🎉
@ Rob
You mentioned something about I1, any clues ?
Happy New Year gang
@Rob
Yes, that text about I1 is great. I'm I1 myself. Today, Karl O. Högström published a new book titled The Huns and their allies in Scandinavia. It is amazing but short. I would have liked him to elaborate a bit more. With that said, it is great if one is interested in Scandinavian history and later steppe nomadic groups. The other texts/articles he has published functions as a compliment to the book.
The Huns and their allies in Scandinavia
https://www.amazon.com/Huns-their-allies-Scandinavia/dp/9198746146/
Musk says that technological singularity will be reached by 2030, which means that by that time it will learn to improve itself, unlimitedly up to infinity, and also to create chips, robot microcircuits, and also probably by that time an ideal genetic calculator will be created, as well as equipment and technologies for creating embryos from the genes of ancient people, that is, it is quite possible that in a few years there will be the first "resurrected" people from ancient DNA remains. In that case, which population would you restore first? I'm sure most would choose "Yamnaya"
'representing male mediated CHG input'. Rare coming from Rob(ber)
The Polish president gave out the facts
https://youtube.com/shorts/AO-NgCRPbWE?si=xOBstusGVKWTJKVK
@William Anderson
hi, I assume you are also the author of old versions of ancient g25? Thank you very much for sorting these samples chronologically, it is very convenient, and if I find some inaccuracies and errors, where can I write to you?
@Ashish Kulkarn
and what did he write wrong? obviously J1 is from the south
@ Akshish
“ representing male mediated CHG input'. Rare coming from Rob(ber)”
Yep its only been mentioned 700 times
Hopefully you boys can aim for an honest 2025 .
@ archaeogenetica
“The Huns and their allies in Scandinavia
https://www.amazon.com/Huns-their-allies-Scandinavia/dp/9198746146/”
Thanks I’ll check it out, I’m interested in Huns and their European oikumene
@ Corded
“ You mentioned something about I1, any clues ?”
I think more “pre-I1” will potentially come to up in Nw Europe. For example I noticed that some of the LN hg -I individuals in Fichera’s thesis haven’t been resolved further
So it could have moved north with Danish BB, which also moved into Western Sweden and Norway. I think the “3rd IBD Nordic BA cluster” represents something else (final merger of eastern BAx & Danish SGC folk, coincident with in situ I1 founder effect)
I would also point out to people that Goths formed in Poland . Although east Scando migrants played important roles , there were also inputs from Jutland (classic Jastorf culture). But for some reason the latter suggestion sends some internet personalities into conniptions
@GNT23
Yes, that's the email.
@epoch
"From the supp info:
"The Chalcolithic individuals from Western Anatolia show a distinct mixture of farmer components, such as those from Tepecik and Barçın, differing from the rest of Anatolia. This suggests a potential additional farmer source, possibly from the Balkans or unsampled farmer populations from Anatolia. Previously, we detected a small proportion of CHG and EHG ancestry in one Chalcolithic individual from Ilıpınar (I1584). We also identified Barçın ancestry in one Middle Bronze Age individual from Kalehöyük (MA2203), associated with a Hittite context, as well as in Iron Age individuals, indicating western connections."
There it is"
I have been writing for at least 15 Years that to interpret Barcin as Anatolian, thus linked to the Levant and Middle East, is the strategy of the Levantinists for their agenda, thus to interpret Sardinanians as 100% from Anatolia. Actually this is the old Mediterranean (above all Southern European intake). We know now that to link Etruscans to Anatolia is demonstrated fake.
@Davidski
Target: Russia_Nalchik_E:NL122__BC_4830__Cov_unknown
Distance: 1.5667% / 0.01566722 | R4P
32.8 Poland_Magdalenian_contam.AG:MAZ001.AG__BC_16435__Cov_45.30%
27.4 Russia_Saratov_Khlopkov-Bugor_Meso:I6300_enhanced__BC_5126__Cov_52.19%
23.2 Iran_HajjiFiruz_N.AG:I4351.AG__BC_5970__Cov_63.51%
16.6 Georgia_Kotias_Mesolithic.SG:KK1.SG__BC_7728__Cov_99.86%
Target: Russia_Nalchik_E.SG:nalchik2023.SG__BC_5025__Cov_41.82%
Distance: 2.1116% / 0.02111606 | R4P
33.4 Poland_Magdalenian_contam.AG:MAZ001.AG__BC_16435__Cov_45.30%
26.4 Russia_Saratov_Khlopkov-Bugor_Meso:I6300_enhanced__BC_5126__Cov_52.19%
23.4 Iran_HajjiFiruz_N.AG:I4351.AG__BC_5970__Cov_63.51%
16.8 Georgia_Kotias_Mesolithic.SG:KK1.SG__BC_7728__Cov_99.86%
Poland🤔
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08275-2
Speidel's/Skoglund's article is out, seems our opinions and your advice on the preprint fell on deaf ears however (for reference:
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2024/03/high-resolution-stuff.html).
Do you think they just happened to "miss" your feedback or was it rather ignored?
I for one can't wait to see claims of Hungarians being Scythians based on this article, yippee....
I sent you the email with the file attached, thank you Davidski.
@William Anderson
for example, your two Polish samples are visible in the wrong place at the wrong time:
Target: Poland_Magdalenian_contam.AG:MAZ003.AG__BC_13622__Cov_61.37%
Distance: 3.8063% / 0.03806328 | R4P
52.6 Motala_HG
23.4 ANF
16.8 Ancient_Dravidian
7.2 Morocco_Iberomaurusian
Target: Poland_Magdalenian_contam.AG:MAZ001.AG__BC_16435__Cov_45.30%
Distance: 4.0226% / 0.04022551 | R4P
42.2 ANF
31.2 EHG
16.0 CHG
10.6 Motala_HG
@Copper Axe
They ignored it.
Pontus Skoglund is officially a clown.
G25 should be banned from common use. @Gio Tyrsenian, Vasconic, TRB-GAC are Anatolian farmer languages, right?
@Ashish Kulkarni
"@Gio Tyrsenian, Vasconic, TRB-GAC are Anatolian farmer languages, right?"
Ashish or Hashish? Tyrsenian languages have nothing to do with Vasconic languages or Basque. Basque was linked with Sardinian (look at the Blasco Ferrer demonstration) and, if I am right about the origin of Sardinians, from Mediterranean peoples and not Anatolians because Barcin is from Europe and had nothing to do with the Levant, these were the languages of agriculturalists from the Aegean Sea to Centreal Europe and the Alpine region. Etruscans and Basques had above all hg R1b, not found in Anatolia before the European migrations (Hittites etc). Etruscans also had hg G-L497, just from Southern Balkans. Also about the Sea Peoples it is disproved that Twrs, Sherdn and Shklsh did come from the Aegean Sea or Anatolia. They did come from the Italian terramare, also the Wksh, as I wrote also in this blog a few days ago. Alfredo Trombetti demonstrated that Basque Language was linked to Caucasian languages and Etruscan was intermediate between Caucasian and Indo-European, but these were the languages of Palaeolithic Southern Europe (hgs I-M223 and R1b1 of Villabruna). This of course is my position and the scientific method needs that hypotheses are demonstrated or disproved by facts.
@William Anderson
in your list Russia_Nalchik_E.SG:nalchik2023 is the same NL122?
Where can i write you a private message friend? i dont want to trash this thread
@Gio - it's Ashish Kulkarni. Yes Nuragic and Old Balkanic too. So all pre-IE languages of Europe are WHG languages, if I interpret it correctly?
@Copper Axe
I miss the times when genetics were boring and non-controversial
@Ashish Kulkarni
"@Gio - it's Ashish Kulkarni. Yes Nuragic and Old Balkanic too. So all pre-IE languages of Europe are WHG languages, if I interpret it correctly?"
We are discussing a lot about that. Nothing is certain to me, but probably the idea that there were Caucasian/Alpine languages linked to hgs I/J and that Tyrsenian languages were intermediate between Caucasian and IE it does mean that IE was nearby, and I have no doubt that it did come from the Siberian corridor with hgs R1a and R1b, but if the theory of R1b migrated in the Alpine zone 17000/14000 Years ago is right, probably they spoke the Caucasian Language ancestor of Sardinian/Basque and IE developed easternmost linked to hg R1a. To demonstrate that is complex, but that is the most diffused hypothesis thus far. I have no doubt that easternmost IE there were the Finno-Ugric languages.
@Radiosource
My issue is that publications/institutes go on these "media tours" through popsci websites or newspapers whenever their articles are out. It feels as if scientific legitimacy is increasingly measured by its digital footprint rather than the content itself these days. MPI was the biggest offender, often disseminating press releases with themes such as "science has PROVEN or DEBUNKED X or Y when in reality their articles had not proven anything (Transeurasian for ex.), but all the primary institutes/publications do this nonsense nowadays.
Peer review has also become a complete joke of course.
Other interesting samples in the Carpathian Basin, in addition to L754 and M269 we now have a basal M343 (xL502-P297,V69,PH1030), much older than the sample we have from Uzbekistan.
ROM061 (7.538)-Ostrovul-Corbului, IGHGs, Romania-Mattila, 2.023-R1b1a-L754
I2181 (4.527 BCE)-Smyadovo, Gumelnita-Karanovo culture, Bulgaria-R1b-M269-Mathieson, 2.018
PIE064 (4.499 BCE)-Pietrele, Gumelnita, Romania-R1b1a1b-PF6517-M269-Penske, 2.023
I23123 (4.120 BCE)-Urziceni-Vamă, Satu Mare County, Romania-R1b-M343-Szécsényi-Nagy-2.025
PIE026 (4.458 BCE)-Pietrele Măgura Gorgana, Gumelnita culture, Romania-R1b1-L754
I7127 (4.100 BCE)-Urziceni, Bodrogkeresztur, Romania-Lazaridis, 2.022-R1b1a-L754
They don't look very EHGs, do they?
"More than 1,300 prehistoric burial mounds in western Azerbaijan systematically surveyed for the first time"
https://www.uni-kiel.de/en/details/news/220-kurgane
@Davidski
User HurrianFam in GA has posted an updated version of the map for I-L699/R-V1636
https://drive.google.com/file/d/137I8tS_WH0iwmveU9ZE-5GZwVbxygfhr/view?usp=sharing
@ Gaska
“ PIE064 (4.499 BCE)-Pietrele, Gumelnita, Romania-R1b1a1b-PF6517-M269-Penske, 2.023””
Has that been done by YFull or ftdna. ?
@ Mr FUnk
''
User HurrianFam in GA has posted an updated version of the map for I-L699/R-V1636
https://drive.google.com/file/d/137I8tS_WH0iwmveU9ZE-5GZwVbxygfhr/view?usp=sharing
January 3, 2025 at 2:41 PM
''
Still missing details, I wouldnt use that map
Im not sure why Arsen alsways posts links to low brow / pleb sites like GA. At least the randoms on YouTube aren't intentionally dishonest femboys/ 4th tier academics' like the GimpArchiver crew
In fact the entire GA has a “white guys for Harris” Vibe + some Nordic neopagan Larpers who have lower Test. than Greta Thunberg
I posted this because David is interested in this, and in this post he posted maps by HurrianFam
Real constructive feedback, thanks. Glad to see you're starting off the same year with your usual insightful commentary.
Looks like a number of samples at Urziceni with low level Steppe ancestry (not surprising in light of IBD hit mentioned above, among other things.
One in particular (I23123) with a decent chunk of Steppe ancestry seems to be R1b, although it isn't resolved beyond that and a previously published sample happened to be R-V88.
Also a decent amount of I-CTS10057 at other contemporaneous sites but I suspect most will be resolved to I-Z161.
@Hurrian Fan
Thanks.
What might be interesting is a map with Katelai/Gjerrild removed, as well as all of the EBA Steppe I-L699/R-V1636 removed, to highlight their spread from the eneolithic steppe to the Balkans, Caucasus, and Anatolia.
Perhaps it would be insufficiently intuitive though.
@ HurrianFan
“Real constructive feedback, thanks. Glad to see you're starting off the same year with your usual insightful commentary.”
Well my commentary is accurate.
I’d take you more seriously if you hadnt spent your entire time simping for Lazarides, dissing Eurogenes and tacitly being complicit to pseudoscience.
The sad thing for you losers on GA is that your existence in a dishonest bubble and general Kruger-dunning syndrome prevents you from understanding where you exist in the real world.
@ mr funk
GA is a bullshit forum where pretty much every thread is behind the times or actively pushing fake agendas . Its use should be limited to ancestrology amateurs
There was one V1636 in Usatove/Cernavoda afaik. Have you searched North Pontic paper thoroughly? @Hurrian
@Rob
I don't know if these companies have analyzed this sample. I have taken the data from the Reich-Harvard lab database.
PIE064.AG P15 B730 Tooth17 PenskeHaakNature2023 10.1038/s41586-023-06334-8
ENA:PRJEB62503 Direct: IntCal 20 4589-4409 calBCE (5672±26 BP, MAMS-47838)
Romania_PietreleMaguraGorgana_Gumelnita_C.AG
Pietrele Măgura Gorgana (Giurgiu County)
Native pulldown on 3.2M snpset
1240k 88542 46338 Male
ILLUMINA-PIE064.C0101.TF1.1_S0_L004_R1_001.fastq 9,845 PASS
@Gaska
"Other interesting samples in the Carpathian Basin, in addition to L754 and M269 we now have a basal M343 (xL502-P297,V69,PH1030), much older than the sample we have from Uzbekistan".
If the SNPs of the R1b haplogroup are only these, we cannot say more, neither that this sample could demonstrate the presence of R-PH155 (only PH1030 doesn’t disprove all the subclade) in Central Europe before Asia, but one isolated sample can not demonstrate anything, only that the hgs of the Carpathian Basin were C-V20, E, G, H, I/J, and a very isolated R1b, whereas the presence in the Baltic is huge, and I think they were WHGs from the Alpine refugium. I am waiting for Italy to be tested more, but hoping in Harvard is lost time, et pour case.
The other R1b found in Urziceni is I7127: R-CTS3063/etc*(xCTS9018,BY15390,PF6301). These two samples are very old subclades of R1b which demonstrate an old dispersal more than the path of the more recent subclades and that probably the same R-Z2103 of Yamnaya did come from elsewhere just at the end of the 4th millennium BC.
All these samples quoted by Gaska demonstrate the same:
"ROM061 (7.538)-Ostrovul-Corbului, IGHGs, Romania-Mattila, 2.023-R1b1a-L754
I2181 (4.527 BCE)-Smyadovo, Gumelnita-Karanovo culture, Bulgaria-R1b-M269-Mathieson, 2.018
PIE064 (4.499 BCE)-Pietrele, Gumelnita, Romania-R1b1a1b-PF6517-M269-Penske, 2.023
I23123 (4.120 BCE)-Urziceni-Vamă, Satu Mare County, Romania-R1b-M343-Szécsényi-Nagy-2.025
PIE026 (4.458 BCE)-Pietrele Măgura Gorgana, Gumelnita culture, Romania-R1b1-L754
I7127 (4.100 BCE)-Urziceni, Bodrogkeresztur, Romania-Lazaridis, 2.022-R1b1a-L754"
i.e. samples at the Villabruna level but 10000 Years later. What to think about ROM061? The same Davidski gave it 76,55% WHG and 22,98% Yamnaya and this probably was the path both of the oldest and the recent subclades because no intermediate sample is between R-L754 and R-M269.
I completely agree with him. But it would be better if we had the best genetic scientists and engineers in the world.
https://x.com/TeamKhabib/status/1875289004914176137
@Rob Unfortunately it's those low T neopagan larping Finns on GA who are encouraged by the likes of Angles (who controls the lamestream paradigm) to perpetuate the hogwash of PPGmc originating in Finland. Aka Proto-Germanics being language shifting Finns. A perfect unexpected collusion on their account.
The rest of the boomers on GA are indeed mindless sheep suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect. McColl 2024 was a smoking gun for the Finnish Urheimat larpers and the GA boomers can't realise the obvious contrived results the paper presents and mindlessly follow along like always.
It sounds like a parody of Southern Arc.
Presenting:
The genetic history of the Northern Arc: A bridge between Scandinavia and Finland/East Baltic
Allentoft, Kristiansen, Kroonen, Anglesqueville & Jaska, others et al.
@Davidski I'm eagerly waiting a blogpost on McColl 2024 if coming. Your word carries the most weight to debunk the East Scandinavian cluster origin in the East Baltic.
My prediction based on sober analysis: there is no Latvian HG in those Scandis. They carry excess Ertebolle/Ostorf HG ancestry (Ostorf being a post-Ertebolle group and likely source of I1). They are probably a mixture of post-SGC groups and Flint Dagger Beakers from Jutland who pushed Bax groups northwards.
This is why NEO52 (R-P312/NEO52) and guys like Rise98 (R-U106) from Jutland/Danish Isles pop up in LN Scania, while simultaneously R1a-Z284 Bax is absent and constrained to Norway and North-Central Sweden. Anyone with basic analytic skills can figure this out.
@Rob You should make your use of sockpuppets less obvious. Here in Eurogenes comments and in forum.
*turned into a smoking gun
The Northern Arc joke was a good one. Sometimes its funny how similar some of these internet theories are to those of Kossina about how Germanics descended from a race of hyperborean Finnmark HGs which mixed with the southern Indo-Germanen. Imagine a world where 19th/20th century archaeologists already had haplotism and Gustavo knew of I1.
But yes aside from Angles' insistence that PGMC developed from an unbroken chain of Battle Axe culture tribes near Malaren, I think a lot of people watched Vikings and got fascinated with this idea of Scandinavia, so if you bring further nuance to the debate like how parts of Northern Germany are more or less the same region as southern Scandinavia people get defensive because Germany is Central Europe which is less cool or mystical.
I havent been on GA but I recall how on Anthrogenica claims such as Jastorf weren't Germanic but Celtic or ?? were not even seen as fringe positions. Now I can understand this if you are trying to argue that Germanic tribes only went into continental Europe right before the Roman period like Angles does/did (idk what his current position is), but for the most part I think Jastorf just extends further south than Vikings enthusiasts would like.
On a more serious note, it is quite odd that we have several papers dealing with the spread of Germanic languages and the "scandinavian clusters" but we have no genetic insight into the peoples of Northern Germany. Tollense does not count for obvious reasons. After 1400 BC it is basically just cremations in this area but this still leaves a 5+ century period where inhumations were employed. It would be interesting to see if these individuals had the same LN/BA profiles as further north or if these individuals had more of the Beaker-related ancestry we see in places such as the Netherlands.
NEO52 (R-P312/R-DF19)*
@Igor No, I'm not a sockpuppet of Rob. I don't think he is that kind of loser that needs validation.
Do you feel attacked by the truth?
@Asega
Compare Denmark_Islands and Denmark_Jutland
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2024/03/14/2024.03.13.584607/F5.large.jpg
@Copper Axe Good thing is that we won't ever know regarding Kossina and his hollow theories.
I could care less about Angles' exact position on PGMC and it's development but the crux is that he turned the fictive East Baltic maritime migration of the fake Eastern Scandinavian cluster into a smoking gun, while pulling I1 origin's to Finland with contrived qpAdm models showing Finnish auDNA shifts in the Falköping I1 group. He admitted to being vindicated by the paper. And yes, those viking larpers are uninteresting and best ignored.
Obviously Germanic speakers only started expanding from Scandinavia and Schleswig-Holstein during the Early Middle Ages circa 400 CE (McColl seems to suggest about 150-200 years earlier, circa from 250 CE, but that doesn't change the picture much).
IMHO Jastorf is overrated. What we are looking at is just a local expansion from Jutland into Schleswig-Holstein and/or just general continuity in the region from the LNBA. Nothing stands out that warrants them (besides some contacts with La Tène) to be the PGMC core zone. PGMC could just as well developed within a locale in the Danish Isles. Malaren seems contrived and pulled out of Angles's behind. Ditto Rodoorn and PGmc from Unetice/Central Europe.
Problem with these papers is that Beaker-related is already built into the LNBA samples from Denmark and Scania. They just downplay the significance of LN/Flint Dagger Beaker & local Single Grave (source of U106) in favour of the East Baltic origin nonsense. We have P312 (L21 and DF19) in LN Scandinavia now. NEO52 and one of the Borreby guys (the other was U106/Z18 IIRC). I'm leaning towards I1 being diffused into a Flint Dagger Beaker clan per the 4500BP_2000BP cluster of Allentoft 2023. The cluster with the Toftum Mose I1(one of the earliest I1 guys) and Scanian DF19 Beaker. Battle Axe was peripheral circa 2000 BCE, resorted to Norway and Central-North Scandinavia.
@Copper Axe It's plausible Jastorf carries say more Beaker-related ancestry then the guys up north, though at this stage we don't know, good chance we may never know because of the known acidity of the soils and the tradition of cremation in the region.
@Copper Axe One addition, the last few papers so far provided dense sampling from the Danish Isles and Scania, while we still seriously lack samples from across Jutland.
@Radiosource Fake clusters with big conclusions behind a house cards. Just a poor reinterpretation of Allentoft 2023.
@Asega Nobody mentioned you...
@Igor You clearly mentioned me. Or are you too afraid to confront me directly?
Let me clarify: when I refer to lack of samples in Jutland, I mean the lack of LN and BA samples. IA samples are nice, but not the most relevant to my points.
The southern Scandi BA cluster is an R1b dominated one. The eastern Scandi I1 dominated. Western Scandi BA R1a dominated. This division goes back to the Late Neolithic.
@MS
"An easier explanation in my opinion is that the Scandinavian Iron age cultures, Jastorf and Harpstedt-Nienburg groups were all derived from the final phase of "NBA", which aligns with PGMC spoken around 6th century BC - 1st century AD. The latter having a material continuity with preceding populations could explain the beaker/pseudo-british signal in some of the pre-migration era IA samples."
I don't doubt that Jastorf was Germanic speaking because of the clear archeological connections with the preceding NBA locally and up north. You are too confident regarding Harpstedt-Nienburg, ergo no guaranteed samples. Very little known about them at this stage. Two samples from IA North-Holland who might be HPN with one male, Y-DNA R-Z156. Which is not a typical "Germanic" marker but instead is likely linked with Urnfield expansions. They look like a mixture of preceding Oostwoud Beakers and Czech Knoviz (Czech variant of Urnfield) with qpAdm. They are probably linked with the so-called ENS cluster identified by McColl.
"I'm not sure how obvious this is. I do not find the theories that tribes like the Frisii, Batavi or Tuihanti were not Germanic but Pseudo-Celtic or Nordwestblock to be well substantiated. The Suebi in Ceasar's time were clearly Germanic speaking and at this stage were well in Central Germany. Ditto with the tribes which formed the East Germanic sprachsbund further east. There also is a clear Germanic inscription centuries before this period (Negau helmet B) in Slovenia of all places, so Germanic people having a presence on the North European plain in the first millennium BC seems to be a given imo."
It's pretty obvious because that is when we actually see large-scale migrations of Germanic people across Europe. Germanic were largely still confined to the Northern European Plain and Scandinavia during the Iron Age. An inscription or Germanic person here or there somewhere deep in Central Europe during the Iron Age does not change the big picture.
Your argument of the situation in NL is suggestive, rather weak. Nordwestblock is debunked nonsense. We largely have no inscriptions, so we can't say anything useful regarding the linguistic situation. There were tribes from Germany moving around into the area (linked to Suebi) so they might have brought Germanic speech into the region. I do think genetically the picture is holding rather strong that they are linked to Dutch BB and also an Urnfield (Proto-Celtic) when you soberly look at the DNA. R-DF19 and R-Z156 are chiefly markers of Hilversum/Elp. We have attested Celtic personal names in Frisii kings and Greek writers referencing the Frisii as a Celtic tribe.
Things aren't always that straightfoward, but there are links showing lack of Germanic association.
@MS Unless we have actual evidence of IA Dutch samples, wether Harpstedt-Nienburg or not showing clear Scandinavian uniparental markers and Scandinavian GW ancestry, the theory stays a nice little theory but fails to explain the complex situation of the Low Countries. So far the DNA evidence points in a completely different direction.
@Asega
I can't include Jutland in the likely Proto-Germanic area with all that R1a:
https://i.imgur.com/TCjQsJm.png
@ Ashish - btw good to see you back, thought you'd gone awol
yep, there is a lot to cover, we need to uncover Germanics, Italics, Slavs, non-IE groups.
Wrt Germanic, my guess would be core zone extending from a northern strip of Germany, Jutland, Danish Isles and S. Sweden. Jastorf was just one southern early Germanic group. There's not a big amount of 'Celtic' influence in Jastorf, if anything La Tene 'Galli' seem to be culturally north influenced or 'ruralised' c.f. Halstatt. Some minor celtic influences appear to have arrived circuitously from a residual Silesian Celtic group via the Przeworsk culture.
There was some also sort of pre-RIA migration of the Nordic circle into continental Europe, there is even some trade with Luzatians. Possibly why we are seeing early Nordic outliers here n there.
@ Asega "Obviously Germanic speakers only started expanding from Scandinavia and Schleswig-Holstein during the Early Middle Ages circa 400 CE (McColl seems to suggest about 150-200 years earlier, circa from 250 CE, but that doesn't change the picture much)."
I agree with most of what you said but isn't 400 CE way too late? Many of the Wielbark lads predate that by hundreds of years and IIRC the Mecklenburgers from 300 CE looked like they had Nordic input. I think it happened earlier.
@Artaxerxes No, it's not too late because I'm referring to the traditional Völkerwanderung. The period where we see actual large-scale migrations of Germanic folk from North-Central Europe across Europe.
The Wielbark guys were more like a one-off thing. Though after seeing significant Scandinavian-related ancestry in La Tène Czechia (Gretzinger 2024 et al.) it's becoming increasingly more apparent that there were earlier movements southwards.
Not too sure what to make it of yet, but the first trickle movements could have started during the Pre-Roman IA. Not at the same scale obviously. Gretzinger suggests Germanic amber traders which is fitting.
@Radiosource You're not making much sense. Why not? Is PGmc an exclusive I1 and/or R1b thing? They didn't have breeding monopolies and/or elite status relative to their R1a and I2 peers.
It makes little sense to favour Eastern Germany and Poland over Jutland based on superstition.
@Rob Completely agree about the GA femboys.
''yep, there is a lot to cover, we need to uncover Germanics, Italics, Slavs, non-IE groups.
Wrt Germanic, my guess would be core zone extending from a northern strip of Germany, Jutland, Danish Isles and S. Sweden. Jastorf was just one southern early Germanic group. There's not a big amount of 'Celtic' influence in Jastorf, if anything La Tene 'Galli' seem to be culturally north influenced or 'ruralised' c.f. Halstatt. Some minor celtic influences appear to have arrived circuitously from a residual Silesian Celtic group via the Przeworsk culture.''
Yes, I just mentioned the variable levels of Germanic ancestry in La Tène Czechia. Amber traders wandering along the trade route, setting up shop in Central European locales makes sense.
''There was some also sort of pre-RIA migration of the Nordic circle into continental Europe, there is even some trade with Luzatians. Possibly why we are seeing early Nordic outliers here n there.''
All good. Lusatian culture is a possible vector for how R-Z156 (U106) made it into Central Europe and Celtic (Urnfield) ethnogenesis.
*Unetice is a possible vector for R-Z156. It has been lingering in Central Europe for a long time but left Scandinavia early.
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