This quote, from a new paper at
Nature,
High-resolution genomic history of early medieval Europe by Speidel et al., is arguably the most idiotic take on the ancestry of present-day Hungarians that I've ever read.
Present-day populations of Hungary do not appear to derive detectable ancestry from early medieval individuals from Longobard contexts, and are instead more similar to Scythian-related ancestry sources (Extended Data Fig. 6), consistent with the later impact of Avars, Magyars and other eastern groups.
In fact, present-day Hungarians are overwhelmingly derived from West Slavic and German peasants, showing only minor ancestry from early Magyars (or rather Hungarian Conquerors). So in terms of genetic ancestry they're basically typical East Central Europeans.
Scythians and Avars don't even deserve a mention in this context.
The reason that Speidel et al. found present-day Hungarians to be broadly similar to Scythians is because they used so called Hungarian Scythians in their analysis.
It's important to understand that these Hungarian Scythians are genetically fairly typical Central Europeans for their time, and, by and large, don't show any significant genetic relationship to Asian Scythians, Avars or early Magyars. So they're mostly either just acculturated Scythians or wrongly classified as Scythians by archeologists.
That is, the broad similarity that Speidel et al. found between present-day Hungarians and Hungarian Scythians derives from the fact that both of these populations are genetically Central Europeans, rather than the ridiculously false idea that they show strong genetic links to Avars, Hungarian Conquerors and other eastern groups.
Here's a Principal Component Analysis (PCA) of West Eurasian genetic variation, courtesy of the excellent
Vahaduo:Global25 Views, that perfectly illustrates my point.
If Speidel et al. were correct about the genetic origin of present-day Hungarians, then the Hungarian_Modern and Hungary_Scythian samples would be shifted away from other Europeans, much like many of the Hungary_Avar and Hungary_Conqueror individuals. But that's obviously not the case, and instead they cluster strongly with, say, present-day Germans from Hamburg.
I emailed two of the authors of this paper, Leo Speidel and Pontus Skoglund, when they posted the preprint of the paper at
bioRxiv to cordially discuss this issue (see
here). But they totally ignored me.
Citation...
Speidel et al.,
High-resolution genomic history of early medieval Europe, Published online: 1 January 2025, https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-024-08275-2
243 comments:
1 – 200 of 243 Newer› Newest»It must be said that the ancient DNA revolution is sadly a bit of a clownshow.
Western scientists have been brainwashed by Prussian and Nazi hate-filled racist propaganda, which aimed to erase Slavs from history.
@Dave
In your opinion was J2b-L283 principally spread into Europe by Yamnaya/CW males? This seems to be the case based on the aDNA:
ZO1002; J2b2a-L283 (xZ600)
I10206; 2900-2500 BC; Crihana-Veche, Cahul District, Moldova; Moldova_EBA_Yamnaya; J2b2a-L283
CGG_2_103750/CGG_2_103753 (twins); 2500 BCE J-L283 >> Z597 Late Yamnaya - early Catacomb, Constantinovca, Moldova
@Simon Stevens
It looks like J2b-L283 got to the western end of the steppe with a Caucasus-derived group, and then mostly spread from the steppe into the Balkans with a Yamnaya-related group, but that's not to say some of it didn't spread with Yamnaya and even Corded Ware.
This qpAdm graph shows that modern Hungarians have about as much East Eurasian-related ancestry as modern Norwegians.
https://i.imgur.com/lCFgp2Y.png
In other words, nothing significant.
You have absolutely correctly pointed out that these European/Hungarian Scythians are largely local, culturally assimilated peoples (probably, by that time, the burial rite for those Hungarian samples was typically Scythian). As a "Scythian" source, one should choose purer, earlier, and more eastern samples of Scythians from Ukraine and the Southern Urals, those Scythians who do not have additional "Central European" admixture.
I've only just noticed that the earliest Scythian samples are from Ukraine πΊπ¦.
in g25 these Scythians look so different that I don't even know what is better to take as a source, perhaps some groups of early Sarmatians are more suitable for this purpose, I mean most of the early Scythians are similar to the Slavic peoples (Slovaks, Czechs, or the same Hungarians, etc.)
the Scythians were not some specific people. The Scythians were a way of nomadic life
@Davidski, do today's Hungarians also have slight genetic traces/admixture of Scythians, Avars... like the Romanians or Szeklers?
You can even find some African admixture in Hungarian mtDNA if you look hard enough, but no, generally there's nothing obviously Scythian or Avar about Hungarians.
However, Hungarians do show trace amounts of Y-chromosome lineages that probably come from Hungarian Conquerors from Siberia.
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/05/more-on-association-between-uralic.html
Hungarian 'Scythians' dont have much Siberan ancestry, let alone 'East Asian'. A couple actually look Balkan shifted c/w some inferences on certain Vekerzug archaeological traits.
I would however think that Translyvanian 'Scythians' do have a non-insignificant Eastern ancestry, mediated via steppe Scythians.
W.r.t. paper - understanding geographic & historic details is generally encouraged. Perhaps in defence the paper aimed to bring out their new methodology, and hence made some over-generalised conclusoins about medieval Europe. It would be hard to do a paper which 'analyses everything'
They don't have to analyze Hungarians in any sort of detail if they don't want to.
But why are they claiming that Scythians and Avars made an important impact on Hungarian ancestry, when obviously Hungarians are typical Central Europeans with practically no such impact?
@ Davidski
OK, it also depends on which sample you take, for example “an example Western Scythian MJ-34 has Iranian/ Indo-European steppe branches Y-DNA Z93/ and mtdna W3a1 but is autosomal close to modern East Germans and Czechs”. I know that around 7% of Scythian can be found autosomal in modern Romanians and Szeklers, but I don’t know which samples, was it three years ago?
I don't think that we can confidently say that Romanians and Szeklers actually have Scythian ancestry, as opposed to just some minor nomad steppe ancestry from various sources largely dating to the Middle Ages.
I know that today's Hungarians are genetically closest to their neighbors and the Germans, I just meant an ancient calculator! I am only talking about admixture
I don't think there's any reliable indication of Scythian admixture in Hungarians.
@ Davidski
was recently presented at GenArchivist Target: Polish_Medieval_Average(n=62)
Distance: 0.9788% / 0.00978840
63.8 Lithuania_Marvele_Roman_460_AD_Cov>40%N=4
33.8 Mikusovce_LaTene_R2202__AD_25__Cov_53.20%
2.4 Sarmatians_Rostov_350_BC_Cov>25%N=6.
I don't know if the fit is good, ph2ter could do a calculation if he has time, for Hungary...
@Steppe
That model for Medieval Poles from the Speidel paper is basically garbage, because it doesn't take into account early Slavs.
Lithuania_Marvele_Roman are not early Slavs. And so the rest of the model is skewed.
“ But why are they claiming that Scythians and Avars made an important impact on Hungarian ancestry, when obviously Hungarians are typical Central Europeans with practically no such impact?”
To by cynical, maybe because they read somewhere that Hungarians are nomads, so they used data which might make that pre-proposed view fit
@Davidski
I don't understand why Speidel has no idea about calculators and presents something like this. The only people who respond to emails are Falko Daim and Johannes Krause, but Speidel and Svante PÀÀbo respond absolutely nothing!
The Agathyrsi in Histories by Herodotus (situated in Transylvania) were described as having a connection to Scythians but mostly culturally Thracian. Clear Iranic names such as Spargapeithes were carried by their rulers. They likely represent the nomads of the western pontic pre-scythian iron age pushed westwards by the expansion of the Scythian kingdom in the 7th/6th centuries BC.
"The Agathyrsi are the most refined of men and especially given to wearing gold. Their intercourse with women is promiscuous, so that they may be consanguine with one another and, all being relations, not harbor jealousy or animosity toward one another. In the rest of their customs they are like the Thracians."
However, Herodotus does not mention any "Scythians" in the Pannonian regions further west. He describes the Sigynnae but does not mention anything in connection or relation with the Scythians.
The material culture of "Hungarian Scythians" is not even a case of culturally Scythian populations like you see with some of the forest steppe Scythoid populations. It is a very clearly Hallstatt derived culture. There is a military technological influence seen in arrowheads, horse harnesses and akinakai, but most of this influence predates the Scythian period and if we define these population as "Scythian" based on this we might as well call migration era Scandinavians "Romans".
So yeah archaeology, history and DNA seem to perfectly allign on here: The Hungarian Scythian population is an modern invention by Hungarian researchers, probably influenced by their turanist steppe fascination.
best summary of Radko
- a major population shift between Early Bronze Age and Middle Late Bronze Age in East-Central Europe
- Trzciniec culture population which occupied Eastern Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, etc. - Northeastern European-related, but not directly ancestral to the Slavs
- Lusatian culture population - genetically heterogeneous, according to preliminary analyses more "western European" (see Golubinski's PCA) than preceding Trzciniec culture, survival of post-Trzciniec elements in some pocket areas, i.e. Western Ukraine
- Pomeranian culture - no data, but very possible continuation of genetic "westernization"
- Oksywie culture (predecessor of the Wielbark culture) - predominantly Scandinavian/Wielbark-like
- Wielbark culture - predominantly Scandinavian-like (Sarmatian, Hunnic, Baltic, Roman, etc. genetic outliers, small scale immigration was previously noted by archaeologists)
- Przeworsk culture - predominantly Celto-Germanic-like, more heterogeneous (possible genetic outliers as a result of small scale immigration, survival of earlier post-Pomeranian elements?)
- decrease in human activity after 400's AD and then severe depopulation during the 6th century AD in Poland, Eastern Germany, etc.
- the Prague material culture which appeared in the second half of the 6th century AD is clearly connected to the Slavs (and associated with the migration from Eastern Europe by archeologists)
- genetic continuity between the 7th century Prague culture remains and later Slavs
- large fraction of segments >16 cM shared between Slavic period genomes from Eastern Germany, Poland, Croatia, etc. indicates recent descend from a common source population, at most a few generations earlier
- the same can be said about relatively young Y-DNA lineages under R-Z280, I-Y3120 and R-M458 (plus some minor lineages, i.e. R-Y14300) shared between Slavic populations
- Slavic-period sites were all relatively genetically homogenous communities with a large portion of ancestry from Northeastern Europe (i.e. BA/IA Baltic-related) and they were organised mostly along patrilines
@Mr. Funk
Scythians were in fact a "specific people". Scythian comes from their endonym Skula/Skulata (attested as Skolotoi) which is the Iranic relative of the English "shooter". In more ancient times the L was a th/d sound hence why Greeks knew them as Scythian.
It is outsiders to the steppe world such as Greeks, or us, who use Scythian asba catch-all term for any inhabitant of "Scythia" or the various related Iranic steppe nomads but from the perspective of the actual peoples Scythians were certainly a population. Within this broader population you obviously had various tribes and castes but there definitely was a shared identity in these populations to the exlucsion of other nomadic entities.
Both Cimmerians and Scythians originated in the steppes between the Azov and Caspian Seas, north of the Caucasus in the early iron age if we go by archaeology. The historical narrative features a push westwards by the Massagetae or by the Issedones from Central Asia, but this is a questionable narrative.
If you're interested, I'm currently working on a sequel to my last blogpost which will cover the formation of these populations during the pre-scythian period. First part was about the late bronze age populations which can be found on my blog and on my new substack page: https://musaeumscythia.substack.com/p/the-origin-of-scythians-part-i-the
Just wait until McColl' paper will prove that those I1 blue-eyed blond nordic aboriginal bestias were just refugees from East Europe (east baltic). And it's just on top of nonIE strong verbs system and nonIE theogony
@Copper Axe
hmm, interesting, thanks
@Copper Axe
I think this is the most plausible and logical map of the Massagetae -> Scythians -> Cimmerians, routes and migrations, etc.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Scythian_Kingdom_in_West_Asia.jpg
then in the role of the initially "pure" Scythian source some Sarmatian populations of the southern Urals, Altai, Kazakhstan, up to the 9/8 centuries BC should be chosen
@ Ashish, Mr Funk
''There is only one sample from Hungary that is genetically Sarmatian-like (aka Scythian). Labelled as Hungary_Prescythian or smth''
''then in the role of the initially "pure" Scythian source some Sarmatian populations of the southern Urals, Altai, Kazakhstan, up to the 9/8 centuries BC should be chosen''
Sarmatians are different to early Scythians / Sakae. The individual Ashish is thinking of might be IR-1, a haplogroup N male from ~ 900 bc with some eastern ancestry, acquired from Sakae/ Altai Scythians. The latter have high Inner Asian ancestry (but no east Asian ancestry) and little BMAC
Sarmatian appear later, after 300 BC, and they have low Inner Asian ancestry and ~ 30% BMAC-related ancestry
So proto-Scythians and proto-Sarmatians are different things. Everything else in the west are basically 'European' groups mixing in to some degree with those two.
@ Steppe (? nomad)
''best summary of Radko...''
That makes sense, but people should not be overconfident
The publicaitons will probably go for an erroneous conclusion like ''Slavs come from Kiev culture''
Remember this is Krause's team who came up with the heggarty debacle
I don't see any authors on the paper who could be associated with Hungarian nationalism. If the source of the term "Hungarian Scythian" is not just bad nomenclature but rather disinformation, maybe the cited authors for this study could be analyzed as the source. I don't get the impression that the authors of this study meant to use the term in bad faith.
This reminds me of that modern Greeks are descendant from ancient Greeks paper. "Oh they're both southern European? Then one must come from the other!"
Si parva licet, I could say that my daughter-in-law, Flemish, 100% Frankish, has links with the Bathory Family and above all King Bela III Arpad Dinasty (mt H1b, Y R-Z2123), Genetic Distance: 9.7397 Sample Match! 97% closer than other users, at MTA, and we have in the uniparental markers all the vicissitudes of the genetics of the Siberian corridor with their come and go from east to west and from west to east, but that makes us pretty much 100% Italian (me) or Frankish (my daughter-in-law).
@Finngreek
I made no comment regarding Hungarian nationalism in particular as Hungarian nationalism does not hinge on the Scythians. Furthermore, the Hungarian Scythian affair is not the result of one article or one author, it's the standard in Hungarian archaeology. A. Kuzabova has covered this error fairly extensively in articles.
@Davidski
Have you looked into the claims of significant geneflow from Central Europe into Scandinavia in the early middle ages? Any thoughts regarding this or the methodology of the claim?
I haven't looked into that yet.
I'm starting work on a preprint about this paper for bioRxiv in which I'll be making Speidel & Skoglund look really dumb, so I might cover the Scandinavian thing as well if I can.
I'll then try to publish this preprint at Nature as a reply to their paper.
Sounds hardcore, looking forward to it. Any reason why this article in particular rather than the hundreds of other published articles with odd claims?
Copper Axe
In any case, the Sigynnae had a Scythian influence: these migrations began from about 600 BC and the trade links brought the nomads of the Pannonian Plain under Scythian influences and contributed to the transformation of the Agathyrsi and Sigynnae cultures into a more Scythian form, which led to the development of the Mezocsat culture of the Sigynnae into the Vekerzug culture, which, however, from 500 BC onwards is strongly dominated by Le Tène culture, which is also partly reflected in the DNA. The only question is, who are the Sigynnae? Post-Srubnaya groups with amalgamation of other groups, the Agathyrsi could have been a Geto-Dacian-Cimmerian population with the upper class being predominantly steppe nomads and the wider population Dacian. Later, when the Le Téne culture took control of the area, the Sigynnae were absorbed (Celtic southward migration), the Agathyrsi were absorbed into the Dacian population. However, important cultural technological characteristics of the steppe nomads were adopted: trousers, arrows, acinaces (daggers), horse equipment... The cultural contacts, as CopperAxe has already mentioned, had been present since the Hallstatt period.
Well, because it's a standout.
They actually got the Hungarian thing comically backwards, which is going to make a great story for the editors at Nature to hear about.
And they didn't do anything about the problem at the preprint stage after being told about it, not even acknowledging the email that I sent to them.
I looked through the supplemental table to try and rationalize it (maybe they at least found a preference for those "Scythians" compared to Hungarian La Tene samples).
Unless I'm misreading it, Hungarian La Tene wasn't used in the analysis, and the preferred model they seem to be referring to combines the Hungarian "Scythians" with Slovakian La Tene samples.
So they ought to have known this was sensationalist framing.
@ Ashish Kulkarni
Chust Culture rather think of sedentary Iranians but not Scythians (Indo-Iranian steppe nomads/ Circum Altai Region )
@Steppe
yes, it is better to first find an original Asian source for the Scythians, maybe Mongolia Khovsgol, or something else from Mongolia older than the thousandth year BC.
and sources like Andronovo + BMAC together with the Srubnaya culture will be an Iranian source for the early east Scythians
The early Scythians originated from the steppe area and did not migrate from Iran to the Altai region, but early Iranian groups migrated from the Andronovo cultural horizon to Iran and the Fergana Valley where older cultures already existed (BMAC ...)
I have seen through you, you support the theory that Indo-Iranians do not originate from the steppe (the eastern CWC horizon), but from Iran/Central Asia and migrated to the steppe and that Pashtuns also have other Z93 branches that do not originate from Scythians but from early Indo-Iranian/Indo-Aryan groups such as Z93 - L657 or Z93 Y3...
Merry Christmas to Ortho-bros
All good, everyone is entitled to their opinion, however you should read scientific studies: Nature, PLOS ONE .. or blogs such as Eurogenes or MuseumScythia, archaeological books (for example, the Peoples of Eurasia / Parzinger, ....)
@Ashish Kulkarni Why would you name yourself as someone else? Just be yourself. We aren't supposed to know if you are or aren't someone you named yourself after.
@ Rob
not nomad but steppe an old Anthro Amigos known as Alain
@ the ? not real "Ashish''
I can appreciate that Cimmerian / "Initial Scythian', deer-stone folk might not be Iranian. They have no BMAC, and derive their admixture from eastern Saka who are almost 50% Khovsgol.
The issue is that we dont have 'classic' steppe Scythians from the Don and lower Dnieper.
@ Finn Greek
''Why would you name yourself as someone else?''
If true, a bit ... creepy
@ Slav
ΡΡΠ΅ΡΠ΅Π½ ΠΠΎΠΆΠΈΡ
Aside from the archaeological issues with claiming that Chust is "Proto-Scythian", thess models are simply made up as sample I6709 from Northeast Kazakhstan has nothing to do with the Chust culture. Stick to spreading misinformation on social media platforms.
The relation between Chust and the local Saka of the Alai is the following:
"The formation of the Alai Saka culture itself occurred as a result of a powerful migration wave of cattle-breeding population coming from the northeast at the turn of the 8th-7th centuries BC.1 Having passed through the territory of the Tien Shan, it could not directly penetrate Alai, bypassing the territory of the Fergana Valley. Since the spurs of the Fergana Range almost completely isolate Alai from the northeast, there are simply no convenient passes for the passage of large masses of people there. Therefore, having invaded Fergana, this migration wave contributes to the decline of the Chust culture [Zadneprovsky, 1962: 171] and is superimposed on the local post-Bronze Age population. "
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/sakskaya-kultura-alaya-yugo-zapadnaya-chast-kirgizii
Furthermore, no "separate khovsgol migration" occurred on the Central and Western steppes. The main Y-haplogroup of Khovsgol_LBA, Q-BZ180, is found in a wopping 2 of the hundreds of Scythian samples we have. The more derived clade, Q-FT421589, in none. We have plenty of samples from this early stage and the eastern ancestry clearly spread with a mixed profile, as seen in populations of the Altai-Sayan during the LBA.
@Copper Axe
"Have you looked into the claims of significant geneflow from Central Europe into Scandinavia in the early middle ages? Any thoughts regarding this or the methodology of the claim?"
Modern Scandinavians score a lot more Barcin-like (ANF) component than Iron Age Scandinavians did. In my opinion it can be partially attributed to Celtic thralls from Ireland/Scotland, partially to immigration from Northern Germany & the Netherlands (Hanseatic League), partially to a genetic drift.
Target: Norway_IA.SG
Distance: 4.8543% / 0.04854321
51.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
29.4 TUR_Barcin_N
19.2 WHG
Target: Norwegian
Distance: 4.6437% / 0.04643725
50.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
34.0 TUR_Barcin_N
15.8 WHG
Interestingly, the Yamnaya proportion changed little, but a large chunck of the WHG component flipped towards Barcin. Perhaps the single biggest factor is a genetic drift?
@Copper Axe
that is, this Asian source khovsgol does not fit the early Scythians, is that correct? If it does not fit, then we need to look for another source.
One more question. Would the Scythians have been Scythians if not for this Asian source in the Scythian samples. I mean specifically about the early Scythians, about their culture and customs, which turned them from ordinary Iranian-speaking nomads into Scythian warriors and cattle breeders?
I am asking you this question because you clearly know more about the Scythians than anyone else
@Radiosource
Genetic drift is random, so it can't change autosomal ancestry proportions.
The most likely causes are demographic factors coupled with isolation-by-distance.
@ Mr Funk
CopperAxe really knows a lot about the subject:
In my opinion, the Scythians were definitely Indo-European Indo-Iranian speaking horse nomads from the Altai region with a slight East Asian admixture/input which later increased and was absorbed into the local population in some cultural areas, see Agathyrsi (Dacians and pre-Scythian population...) hardly any East Asian input to nothing at all but for example the Pasyryk Culture, the individuals have a high East Asian gene content and tended to be similar to today's Tuvinians
@ Copper Axe
''Furthermore, no "separate khovsgol migration" occurred on the Central and Western steppes. The main Y-haplogroup of Khovsgol_LBA, Q-BZ180, is found in a wopping 2 of the hundreds of Scythian samples we have. The more derived clade, Q-FT421589, in none. We have plenty of samples from this early stage and the eastern ancestry clearly spread with a mixed profile, as seen in populations of the Altai-Sayan during the LBA.''
Most of it might have been gradual dissemination of genome-wide Inner Asian ancestry toward the west, but we do have clear evidence for brisk migrations from Inner Asia (broadly) toward the Urals and western Steppe. I mentioned IR-1 from Hungary who belongs to N-B482, the 2 Q you mentioned, and im sure more will show up. Also, some of the R1a-Z93 lineages should be looked at for return migrations from the Kazakh regeion to the west.
Of course, these individuals are a relative minority imposing themselves on the collapsing Belozerska / late Srubnaja settlement pattern, who themsleves were mostly R1a-Z93
''https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7997506/
Figure 4A''
A good article written by Nmozhenov documents these movements archaeologically.
As I said, once we get Don Scythians, things will become clearer (ie more complex, because they might also have Koban ancestry, early Sarmatian admix, etc)
@ Mr Funk
'that is, this Asian source khovsgol does not fit the early Scythians, is that correct? ''
It depends on what you mean by early Scythians. However, Khovsgol or Baikal BA are certainly valid source of admixture in steppe Sakae and so-called Altai Scythians shown by qpAdm (e/g me or more formally Gnecchi-Rusconi). There's no doubt about this
@ Steppe
''In my opinion, the Scythians were definitely Indo-European Indo-Iranian speaking horse nomads from the Altai region with a slight East Asian admixture/i''
Hi Alain. Some of the Altai Scythians & Sakae have almost 50% Khovsgol admixture. Do you count that as slight ?
We cant make sweping assertions on what language they spoke unless one does a detailed study on the social structure of an individual community.
However, by the time of the so-called Initial Scythians in the west are ambiguous, classic Scythians ~ 550 BC (which we lack aDNA for) , steppe chiefs appear to have had Iranic names
@ Rob
slightly not but it depends on the culture! for example the Pontic Scythians or Western Scythians have a not so high East Asian share or Zevakino chilikta IA or the Sarmatians in the Urals as Tasmola or Pazyryk
@Rob
Its certainly a sudden migration rather than gradual diffusion. How sudden is hard to say but within one century seems likely. The strongest replacement seemed to have occurred in the Central Kazakh steppes with almost no legacy from the LBA groups there. The least is in the Volga-Ural region, Minusinsk Basin and North Altai region. Latter two are peripheral regions of course.
The route of expansion in the EIA is another point. The nomads from Dzungaria to Moldova all have common traits to the exclusion of those around the Altai. Kovalev points to the usage of deer stones in EIA Dzungaria being very similar to those in Europe as well as similar burial rites so an expansion from this area westwards is possible but there are other possibilities. Will all be discussed. Fyi we have two samples from the early classical Scythian phase by now: UKR113 and UKR078. You'd find the profile of the former interesting I think.
The eastern substrate is the same "type" of population as Munkhkhairkhan/Khovsgol_LBA but the samples from west-central Mongolia just carry slightly different subclades. Q-L332 for example is a major one both in the west and east. Perhaps the right subclades are to be found in Xinjiang Altai or Tuva? Hard to predict. And yeah you have specific "eastern" R1a clades common in Scythians and you can find those in the Circum-Altai zone samples.
I wouldnt fall in the trap of thinking that just because they have 50% eastern ancestry that they would not be Iranian speaking. Most Iranian speakers of the iron age had the same or even more non-IE admixture yet we dont speculate about how TKM_IA could have spoken "BMAC language". Food for thought but the material culture of those eastern populations is practically entirely derived from the steppe_MLBA rich cluster in the Altai as well, if anyone did a language switch it would be them.
@Mr. Funk
The horse-based lifestyle, nomadic economy, scythian animal art and warfare systems all have their origins in the eastern regions yes, and without these elements you would not have Scythians as we know them. For example the Akinakes short sword developed out of a particular type of Karasuk-style dagger (with additional North Caucasian influences). Without this migration you would have developments of a short aword no doubt, but it would not become an akinakes if you get my point.
The Srubnaya-derived populations were not nomadic but sedentary and/or transhumant cattle pastoralists. You could argue that the development towards full blown nomadic pastoralism could have developed in the European or Central Asian steppes as well. In our timeline though, it didn't. Circumstances such as climate/geography play a larger role than ancestry I would say. Keep in mind that in these region I am talking about was inhabited by people which had 50-75% steppe_MLBA ancestry so the "basis" on which those cultural developments occurred ultimately originate in the western steppes.
@Not Asish
No offense but you cannot call my posts misinformation when you blatantly misattribute samples to push through your ridiculous theories which have no factusl basis or academic support. Its funny too that you denigrate Soviet archaeology but then talk about Yaz and Chust as if these are not material cultures that owe nearly all their excavations to the Soviet period.
The genomes fo the Tian Shan Saka perfectly display what happened in those regions. 50/50 autosomal profile between Yaz-like farmers and Tasmola-like nomads yet the vast majority of the paternal lineages are from said nomads. We primarily see northern R1a clades as well as the ocasional Khovsgol_LBA related lines under Q and N, shared with other nomads. A minority of southern paternal input is certainly there but these are specific to this cluster rather than showing recent links with other nomads. You can do the math on the implications.
Also if Chust evolved into "Ferghana Saka" then they are not the source of all Scythians as the Cimmerians and Scythians had already invaded the Middle East, and burials like Tunnug 0 and Arzhan 1 were well over a century old by the time the Ferghana Saka came around. Classic case of Dunning-Kruger...
This model has an even better fit than Speidel's model:
Target: Polish_Medieval_Average(n=62)
Distance: 0.8541% / 0.00854104
56.0 Latvia_BA_Kivutkalns_550_BC_Cov>50%N=7
29.0 Glinoe_Dacians_290_BC_Cov>25%N=5
15.0 Goths_Weklice_90_AD_Cov>40%N=9
What do you think about it?
Happy New Year! We were worried about whether you were O.K. for a while.
Happy New Year!
I just watched Donald Trump's press conference.
If that fucking idiot has his way there won't be a 2026.
@ Alain
''slightly not but it depends on the culture! for example the Pontic Scythians or Western Scythians have a not so high East Asian share or Zevakino chilikta IA or the Sarmatians in the Urals as Tasmola or Pazyryk''
That's right, but the 'western Scythians' we have arent really Scythians (theyre mostly northern 'Thracians', para-Balto-Slavs, etc), neither are Sarmatians 'archaeological Scythians'.
So my point is that the Scythian fashions and trends which begain after 900 BC had a core zone which is arouund Tuva and the Altai. And these cultural proto-Scythians have tons of Inner Asian admixture, and I wouldnt call it east Asian because it is not Slab Grave related.
Also, some of the Russia Ural Scythians have ~ 50% Inner Asian admixture, theyre not all on G25 perhaps
@ Copper Axe
''I wouldnt fall in the trap of thinking that just because they have 50% eastern ancestry that they would not be Iranian speaking. Most Iranian speakers of the iron age had the same or even more non-IE admixture yet we dont'''
For argument's sake, it depends on the indivividual clan or site, dynamics, choice, etc it's hard to entirely predict.
But anyhow, those 'models' on Reddit are prety shonky- anachronistic and overfitted
@Rob
some western Scythian samples (in Moldova, Ukraine ...) also have a more eastern profile similar to Siberia, one example is specifically MJ-34 has Iranian/ Indo-European steppe branches Y-DNA Z93/ and mtdna W3a1 but is autosomal close to modern East Germans and Czechs, others as you mentioned are cultural Scythians like SCY009 but not genetically, however we can establish that the Scythian culture began in the Altai region, which is also confirmed by archaeology, and then spread westwards (Pontis Steppe - Pannonian Plain) and also to the southeast (Ordos Plateau)
@Copper Axe
amazing, thank you.
then here's another question, if we know all this, then which source for the Scythian origin of the Hungarians would be best to choose? this source should be in the wedge, like
Andronovo<——>Asian source
or there should be a PCA triangle, like Andronovo<——>Asian source<——>Central Asian source {bmac}, or there should be 4 more components like Srubnaya, Ukrainian early Iron Age, etc. I mean, is it correct to consider the Scythian origin of the Hungarians to be the already formed population in Ukraine, or those Massagetae who have not yet crossed to the western side of the Volga. I hope the translator correctly translated what I meant
I came across this article by Irannejad about Indo-Iranian migrations. Seems like a decent effort to integrate some recent findings
Im not sure if the migration routes proposed, we are probably still missing data
@ Ashish
Worked fine for me, might have to press an additional link
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/05786967.2023.2249433
BTW - the name is Rob, Im sure you have phonetics for 'R' in Dravidian / AASI
@Ashish Kulkarni
"Proto-Fatyanovo (Baltic) → Fatyanovo (early Indo-Iranian) → Abashevo (proto-Indo-Iranian) → Sintashta-Petrovka (earliest stages of Indo-Aryan and Iranian dialects) → [admixture with Kumsay] Alakul (Iranian) and Fedorovo (Indo-Aryan)."
No, you need to explain the Balto-Slavic and Greco-Armenian components in Indo-Iranian languages.
https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/news/2024/07/how-did-proto-indo-european-reach-asia?utm_source=pocket_shared
Fatyanovo-Balanovo was Indo-Slavic, meaning it was more similar to Slavic than to Greco-Armenian. Abashevo and Sintashta were also likely Indo-Slavic, as there is little evidence of intermixing with Greco-Armenian post-Yamnaya steppe cultures in these groups.
The Indo-Iranians originated through the interaction of Indo-Slavic Sintashta with Greco-Armenian post-Yamnaya steppe cultures, possibly with some influence from Central Asian cultures. This process occurred somewhere in Central Asia.
@EastPole
Indo-Iranians, Balto-Slavs and that extinct R1a branch that went to Scandinavia are the three main branches of Eastern Indo-Europeans. You can call it Indo-Battle-Axe for a more broad encompassing.
@Ashish Kulkarni
"Balto-Slavic is a sibling of Fatyanovo, also known as the Middle Dnieper Culture (MDC). MDC may have carried BSD, although I am not well-versed enough to determine if CCC was not also responsible.
https://twitter.com/VVeltkrieger/status/1874692474737967180
Balkanisms in Indo-Iranian are the result of significant interactions between Abashevo, Catacomb-Poltavka, and archaicisms."
I disagree. The evidence suggests that Indo-Slavic likely originated in the Sredny Stog culture before migrating eastward with the Corded Ware Culture (CWC) from Poland. While this may surprise some, it is supported by genetic and archaeological findings
https://i.postimg.cc/XJPhpV3p/screenshot-403.png
CWC represents a fusion of Sredny Stog steppe populations with the Polish Globular Amphora culture. Genetically, Fatyanovo is very similar to the post-CWC Polish Mierzanowice Culture. However, a key distinction lies in the dominance of genetic haplogroups: Fatyanovo is characterized by R1a-Z93, while Mierzanowice is dominated by R1a-Z283.
This distinction supports the argument that CWC was Indo-Slavic in nature:
https://i.postimg.cc/tJ6Q87MZ/screenshot-410.png
"Italy and Spain acquired much of their Steppe ancestry from populations derived from the Bell Beaker culture. In contrast, Greeks and Armenians trace their Steppe ancestry directly to a western Yamnaya subpopulation. Previous studies have identified Corded Ware ancestry among Balts, Slavs, and Indo-Iranians. This provides a framework to hypothesize the demographic pathways through which Indo-European languages spread and diverged.
The precursors of Italic and Celtic (and possibly Lusitanian) languages were likely mediated by Bell Beaker populations that formed genetically in Central Europe. Meanwhile, the shared ancestor of Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic ('Indo-Slavic') evolved among populations of the Corded Ware culture in Eastern Europe. Both groups were shaped through admixture with European farmers.
Conversely, the predecessors of Armenian and Greek developed among Yamnaya populations that remained on the Steppe until the Middle Bronze Age. However, identifying an archaeologically defined route for the Steppe ancestry's intrusion into Anatolia (carrying the Anatolian branch) remains challenging."
Source:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2024/12/02/2024.12.02.626332/DC2/embed/media-2.docx?download=true
I also find no evidence of post-Yamnaya Steppe genetic influence in Abashevo or early Sintashta. Both cultures are genetically similar to Fatyanovo and Mierzanowice, making it implausible to link Indo-Iranian languages with Abashevo or early Sintashta. These languages likely evolved later in time.
@Mr. Funk
Old Hungarians seem to have acquired a decent chunk of Sarmatian ancestry and possibly a smaller layer of earlier nomadic ancestry, but this is hard to distinguish from early medieval turkic ancestry I think. This is on top of the Andronovo/Srubnaya ancestry their ancestors acquired previously. Linguistics also show a significant layer of interaction between Hungarians and Middle Iranian East Iranian speaking populations. This was picked up around the Ural region, Scythians of the Black Sea were not relevant to their ethnogenesis.
If you have further questions, lets take the discussion private to not clutter the comment section of this blog post. You can comment on my blog or send me an email -> musaeumscythia@gmail.com.
@Copper Axe
Thanks, no need for private messages as we are not going off topic
Btw an update on McColl's article:
"The Eastern Scandinavians first detection 6-800 years after the earliest Corded Ware populations in Scandinavia (Extended Data Fig.-9A), and the presence of a Hunter-Gatherer ancestry, not well represented by the three waves of Hunter-Gatherers previously identified in Scandinavia, points to an additional, late arrival into Scandinavia by the ancestors of the
Eastern Scandinavians. The Hunter-Gatherer ancestry suggests a link across the Baltic or from the northeast along the Baltic coastline.
With regards to their Steppe-related ancestry, the Corded Ware individuals from Lithuania (4842–4496 BP), Latvia (4833 BP) and Estonia (4638–4400 BP) are not well-modelled by the Eastern Scandinavians, suggesting a source region further north (Supplementary Fig. S5.28). Notably, Corded Ware and Hunter-Gatherer genomes from Finland and the northeast coast of Sweden are not represented in the dataset, and may also be a suitable source for the Hunter-Gatherer ancestry in Eastern Scandinavians.
Such a location would be consistent with strontium isotopes of the Late Neolithic Swedes of Central Sweden which link with eastern and northern Sweden, Finland and possibly Karelia and with similarities in pottery styles between Late Neolithic Sweden and the Kiukainen culture (4500–3800 BP) of southwestern Finland and the Γ land Islands47–50 389 . Combined, the results point to the presence of an unsampled hunter-gatherer population, likely carrying I1 haplogroups, admixing with a Corded Ware-related population, similar to those of Scandinavia, to form the Eastern Scandinavians somewhere between Finland and Northeast Sweden. At present, no genomes from this region and time period exist."
Seems like they are doubling down on this theory.
@Rob
“Half of Kroonen's claims seem outdated and lack substance.”
Could you share more up-to-date theories regarding the origin of Indo-Slavic? I believe some of his arguments align with genetic evidence.
Here’s a perspective:
“The shared ancestor of Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic ('Indo-Slavic') likely evolved among populations associated with the Corded Ware culture in Eastern Europe. Both groups were shaped significantly through admixture with European farmers.”
@Copper Axe Give them a bit of time, soon they'll say Eastern Scandinavians never existed.
This is a half concession basically.
@ East Pole
I totally agree with your Indo-Slavic idea. I was more referring to the un-empirical views of the linked supplement on proto-Greek and pr-Anatolian
@ CopperAxe/ Asega
So I1 is proto-Germanic from Finland, Uralic actually spread with R1a-Z280, the Fatyanovo R1a-Z93 is Slavic, and N1c folk brought in an Eskimo language which disappeared without a trace.
Putting aside the comedy of their disoriented GA fanboys, it would be good if Morty & the gang bring forth some data from Finnish HGs, otherwise we're left with their dubious IBD claims and tea-leaf reading from strontium isotopes.
I1 isn't from Finland. Everybody fears to admit they are 'russian' from some refugium in belorussian marshes or western russia riverine system
I don't think I1 is from Russia either.
Most likely it's native to Northwestern Europe.
Yes, it's native sensu lato (possibly being Swiderian relict) but R1b and R1a of CordedWare killed them in continent, Scandinavia and Finland and N1 killed them everywhere in Northern Russia. Just some group found shelter/refugium in marshes/rivers of East Baltic/Lithuania and successfully migrated to Scandinavia
I seriously doubt that Scandinavian I1 is from the East Baltic.
I1 wasn't really killed of by CWC or N1. It was just never common in the first place, never really had a 'boom' during the Mesolithic or Neolithic (e.g .by adapting agriculture or proto-steppe like some I2 lineages). Just hung in there and expanded bigly with Nordic BA & later historic Germanic groups.
Gotta say, the chances of I1 being from Finland or Santas Workshop in the north pole are low. The Finnish HGs would be EHG, mostly likely some dead-end branch of R1
@George
I don't understand why hgs I1 and R1a and R1b should have been enemies. I2-M223 and R1b1 of Villabruna lived together at least from 17000 Years ago above all in Italy and probably expanded after the Younger Dryas all over Europe. Other I2 were Palaeolithic in Europe. Also I1 was in Iberia in the late Palaeolithic and Mesolithic. Of course only one line survived somewhere in Europe before its expansion above all in Northern Europe... But when only one line survives it does mean that there was a whole people with that hg for thousands of years.
As we dont have hunter-gatherers from Finland, we can make a guess (with all due caution).
Here is a breakdown in simple terms of EHG vs WHG ancestry in selected north European HGs. (https://imgur.com/a/kZPvr4X)
making that guess, 'Finnish HG' would lie on a cline from northwest Russian HG and northern SHG (e.g. Steigen), so they'd be ~ 85- 90% EhG, 10-15% WHG. So folks can use that as a probative look into fits for Nordic and East Baltic BA.
@ George
''Everybody fears to admit they are 'russian' from some refugium in belorussian marshes or western russia riverine system''
Well northern EHG are from there, then Fatyanovo, and perhaps pre-proto-Slavs.
So the region played an important role in shaping Eurasia.
In the Caucasus, a 3,000-year-old fortress was discovered
using drones.
New technologies have helped archaeologists study a Bronze Age "megafortress," which turned out to be much larger than previously thought.
An origin of this East Scandinavian I1 in Finland would complement the very low frequency of R1 lineages there.
Has anyone (@steppe) got an up-to-date list of 'Balto-Slavic' related R1a amongst western Scythians ?
@CordedSlav
you can find the data of Western Scythia at Ancient Human map
RE I1: I'm open minded, but Gio's point about pre-I1 popping up in western Europe makes it difficult to believe it is actually from western Russia or Finland. Whatever turns out to be the reality is cool with me.
I just don't understand how folks are claiming that proto-Germanic developed in the east Baltic or Estonia. What are the arguments ?
@CordedSlav
"RE I1: I'm open minded, but Gio's point about pre-I1 popping up in western Europe makes it difficult to believe it is actually from western Russia or Finland. Whatever turns out to be the reality is cool with me.
I just don't understand how folks are claiming that proto-Germanic developed in the east Baltic or Estonia. What are the arguments?"
That the oldest I1* has been found in Iberia is the truth of the aDNA as that I-M223 was in Italy in all the Palaeolithic. Of course they migrated later elsewhere and for understanding the formation of the more recent communities it is important to know where. But people still discuss about the origin of R1b, if from the Villabruna as I supposed, or even from eastern or central Asia as Others, above all "Turks", think. But the origin of a "culture" is in its "formation", and I supposed it was a theory of Massimo Pallottino about Etruscans but before him it was of Theodor Mommsen's in his masterpiece about Romans...
Q1a2-M242 expanded ANE ancestry westward (13.000 BC), while R1b-P297 expanded WHG ancestry eastward through post-Swiderian cultures creating EHG as a WHG-ANE mixture.
In addition, Sidelkino that has been used to model the EHGs has between 35-40% Iron Gates HGs ancestry.
Regarding the uniparental ones, the only distinction between WHGs and EHGS is that the latter have R1a which is totally absent in the West. In the same way the different clades of I-M170 only reached Eastern Europe (Ukraine) at the end of the Mesolithic.
I1 in Finland ? you must be joking, if you follow Vaudeville Anglesqueville's theories you will end up thinking that the Swedes are Finnish Martians.
@Gaska
my brother, R1b-P297, together with Q1a2-M242 and R1a come from Siberia from the same region, why do you always write the same thing, as if a record has stuck, how do you imagine R1b-P297 from WHG? well, stop it already.
ProtoGermanic in 4600BC is definitely wild exaggeration. I1 language of that epoch was definitely mix of Paleo-European with CordedWare protoIE dialect which mixed again in Scandinavia with protoIE R1a and R1b dialects leaving intact only strong verbs system
Listen to me, knucklehead, there is not a single R1b-L754>P297 in Siberia. All R1b markers in the Russian-Ukrainian steppes have their origin in the west of those regions.
According to Harvard-“We have traced the origins of the Yamnaya to the Dnipro Cline and the populations of the Serednii Stih culture: the Yamnaya were formed as people of the CLV cline admixed with people of the Dnipro-Don area having UNHG ancestry.”
However, what does this mean in a more general sense? In fact, this means, first of all, the recognition of a sharp increase in the role of the gene pool of the so-called western hunter-gatherers -WHG- in the genesis of the Yamnaya culture population.And this means that both I2a-L699 and R1b-Z2103 have their origin neither in Siberia nor in the steppes but in WHGs-territory.
do the rest agree with mr Gaska?
i think that some R1b on the way to the west remained in the steppe, one reached vilarbuna, thus forming the wedge whg-ane
@Step
I don't know who this Radek is, but I think he analyzed these minor lines quite superficially and inaccurately.
Y14300 is located below Z2103, which has been present in Poland and the surrounding area since the Bronze Age through all subsequent epochs. Below Z2103 we have in BB, as well as autosomal Danish in Wielbark Culture, and later in early medieval German - and already Polish cultures. Even the younger SNP below Z2103 discovered in the Balkans that appears as "hun" is a migrant with a distinctly Central European origin, according to the authors, and suggests that it may have arrived with the movements of the Goths.
Currently, the Y14300 strongly dominates among Poles and Czechs. It is much more likely that it was here from the Bronze Age and then expanded a little with the Great Migration of Peoples than that it came with the Slavs.
R is ultimately an ANE lineage, not a WHG lineage. It's more closely related to east Eurasian lineages, than west Eurasian/"Caucasian" lineages like I-J.
If there was some weird ANE -> WHG -> Yamnaya transition, remains to be seen. Certainly, the I2 in Yamnaya helps this case. But the R being found in ANEs, and R1a being exclusively EHG, doesn't help Gaska's case. Most likely it is a steppe sibling of R1a.
@ Mr Funk
''R1b-P297, together with Q1a2-M242 and R1a come from Siberia from the same region''
Neither R1a-M17 nor R1b-P297 are from Siberia.
R1b-P297-M73 appears in Siberia (Omsk)/ Botai after 4000 BC, but these have WHG/EHG admixture in them.
R1b-M269 appears ~ 3000 BC with Yamnaya-Afanasievo
R1a-Z645->Z93 appears after 2300 BC with Andronovo assoc. groups
@ CordedSlav
''I just don't understand how folks are claiming that proto-Germanic developed in the east Baltic or Estonia. What are the arguments ?''
Similar to what George said, PGMc formed when some late EKG/ CWC or BB group moved through Denmark, took some I1 along with them, and mixed with leftover BAx. We still don't have 100% of the picture, but whatever the case Finland HGs were part of Combed Ware/ Lyalovo/ Karelia-Sperrings pottery group, so as per above, I'd be they were Y-hg R1-something EHGs.
It's best to ignore the 'theories' emanating from the Funny Farm, whatever the thread.
@ Copper Axe
I liked your latest Avar thread; hadnt realised you moved addresses. The new cemetery from Austria does shake things up a bit. I wasnt really buying the Mongolian homeland, I was more looking at the east kazakh steppe for Avars.
In future, the problematic 'Herodotus-Terezhnokin model' for Scythians needs to be explored.
I2-M438 is Vestonice-Epigravettian
I1-M253 is Magdalenian and like all mesolithic markers, it was incorporated into European neolithic cultures because it has appeared both in the Funnelbeaker & Cugnaux-Chaseen cultures, from Germany reached Scandinavia.
I2a-L699, Golubaya-Krinitsa, his grandfather I2a-CTS10057, Sicily, HaduΔka Vodenica-IGHGs & Zvejnieki-Baltic HGs.
R* is Siberian, R1a-M459-Veretye culture, R1a-M417-Don-Mariupol.
R1b-M343-Carpathian Basin
R1b-L754, Italy & Balkans, Epigravettian WHGs
R1b-P297, Minino-Butovo culture EHGs & Zvejnieki-Baltic HGs
R1b-M73 Zvejnieki-Baltic HGs
R1b-V1636-Volga EHGs.
R1b-M269 has absolutely nothing to do with V1636 nor with the Volga or Caucasus, so far the oldest cases have been found in the Carpathian Basin and Bulgaria.
People should start to accept the reality, Harvard made a serious mistake 10 years ago considering the Yamnaya culture and the R1a and R1b lineages as the ones responsible for the introduction of the Indo-European languages in mainland Europe.
After this time, the steppe ancestry is no longer EHG+ CHG, now they have incorporated WHG, it was not formed with the Yamnaya culture but a thousand or two thousand years before, the territory where it was formed is no longer the steppes, it includes the forest-steppe, and they are still looking for the poor peasants R1a-M417 and R1b-L151 who had no right to bury in the Yamnaya Kurgans or simply looking for a micro-population where those lineages were found and that only exists in their imagination.
@Gaska
"R1b-M343-Carpathian Basin
R1b-L754, Italy & Balkans, Epigravettian WHGs
R1b-P297, Minino-Butovo culture EHGs & Zvejnieki-Baltic HGs
R1b-M73 Zvejnieki-Baltic HGs
R1b-V1636-Volga EHGs.
R1b-M269 has absolutely nothing to do with V1636 nor with the Volga or Caucasus, so far the oldest cases have been found in the Carpathian Basin and Bulgaria. "
they all come from Siberia, went west a long time ago, participated in the ethnogenesis of EHG, SHG, BHG, IGHG, partially WHG, perhaps some participated in the ethnogenesis of the North Caucasian CHG
Didn't you write that the Finns speak the language of Eastern European hunters? and that the Finno-Ural languages are not connected with the Krasnoyarsk Bronze Age?
I think you even published some articles. If it was you, then what else is there to argue with you about?)
They started a fresh thread about Finnish Battle Axe Proto-Germanics circlejerk on that garbage forum.
@Davidski I have seen on internet that you are working on an academic G25. If I may ask, what is your estimate of the release? Because I don't know if I need to buy new G25 coordinates because I don't know if the old coordinates of Illustrative DNA are accurate. (I am new in genetics, my apologies if I said something wrong)
@Mr Funk
I have no idea what you are talking about, maybe you have me confused with someone else.
Regarding Siberia when someone finds some sample of R1b older than Villabruna let me know meanwhile, try to accept the reality, Siberia means nothing in the history of R1b-M343 and Yamnaya nothing in the history of R1b-M269* and R1b-L151.
@Kulkarni
Please enlighten us all, what language did the Yamnaya culture speak?, what regions did the Yamnaya culture migrations reach, and what were the male lineages participated in the dispersion of that language.
@R7F00
I don't know when the new analysis will be ready and when or if it will be available to the public.
The G25 isn't available anywhere at the moment. Illustrative DNA doesn't offer the G25 anymore, they offer a different analysis.
@ Ashish
So far no I1 is final Gravettians/ Solutreans in SW Europe, so It’s also ultimately from the ancestral I* in Vestonice-Pavlov , then Italy, Late Paleo Iberia (where pre-I1 was “born”)
Then —> NW Europe -> Scandinavia
@Ashish Kulkarni
pretty good analysis ππ€
Are you by any chance a friend of Gabru?
Looks like FTDNA is starting to upload the Ghalichi et al. 2024 samples. The Eneolithic R-M269 aren't there yet, but some interesting J2b results upstream of J-L283:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/J-z593/tree
@EthanR
Apparently, the man from Zolotarevka was the youngest descendant of the man who had the first mutation L283, perhaps we are talking about several generations?
@ Steppe
''you can find the data of Western Scythia at Ancient Human map''
Thanks, a handy resource
@ Mr Funk
'' R1a come from Siberia from the same region''''
You either mean to say R1, or you don't know what you're talking about
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/07/the-oldest-r1a-to-date.html
@CordedSlav
Come on, did he fall from the moon in Peschanitsa? Or does he not have Siberian admixture?
@ Mr Funk
''Come on, did he fall from the moon in Peschanitsa? Or does he not have Siberian admixture?"'
No, but you obviously did :)
The TMRCA of R1a is after 18000 BC (https://www.yfull.com/tree/r1a/), and there are no R1a samples in Siberia. This means 'R1a' was born in Eastern Europe
@CordedSlav
Let's assume the first R1a male was born 18 thousand years ago. To which cluster do you think he belonged? From which population did he come? Obviously ANE, because EHG most likely did not exist at that time.
@Davidski
For the OP topic:
I've seen some of your earlier qpAdm runs where Hungarians didn't detect any Siberian trace at all, not even 0.1%.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19fU2C2cdSdTYwvWFL2bMuIv5r6zmh5Nw7SbDYqOO4fE/edit?gid=1142599969#gid=1142599969
If we abstract from the idiotic claims made by Leo Speidel & Pontus Skoglund, there were earlier studies which concluded that modern Hungarians do have such admixture, albeit a very small %.
I suppose that Hungarians don't reach a certain thresold for it to be easily detectable.
The minimal thresold when it becomes easy to detect is what exists in Estonians and Russians around Moscow area.
@Radiosource
wow, the Swedes and Icelanders have almost 60 percent Yamnaya
There was another attempt to estimate Siberian-like admixture with qpAdm a few years back, but its results shouldn't be taken at face value either.
https://i.imgur.com/lCFgp2Y.png
What I like about this graph is the fact that it's consistent with studies on modern Hungarians which conclude that they do have a small % of Siberian-like ancestry, but are neverthless similar to neighboring European populations. It does show that Siberian-like admixture goes 3x higher from the English to Hungarians, but I'm inclined to think that the English don't have such admixture in any quantity whatsoever.
Most likely that model is flawed and tends to overestimate Siberian-like admixture by ~1% for each target population. If ~1% was shaven from each target population, the results would be more accurate most likely.
@Davidski
Will you try to set up a qpAdm model (left pops and right pops) which will detect a tiny Siberian-like admixture in Hungarians, but at the same time won't incorrectly show it in the English where such admixture most likely doesn't exist?
@ MR Funk
''Let's assume the first R1a male was born 18 thousand years ago. To which cluster do you think he belonged? From which population did he come? Obviously ANE, because EHG most likely did not exist at that time.''
Bruh you're confusing geography with genetics.
R1a emerged from an ANE-rich population in eastern Europe, not Siberia.
As Gaska said for R1b-P297, get back to us when you find pre-Bronze Age R1a from Siberia ...
@Mr Funk
And don't reach even 20% WHG. Not even 15% in this particular run. The frequency of I1 haplogroup in Scandinavia is totally blown out of proportion and doesn't represent the actual amount of WHG admixture in their autosomal makeup.
@CordedSlav
no, I'm not confusing anything, ANE was originally a Siberian population that stewed in its own juice for several thousand years, divided into branches R, Q, R1, R2, and only then moved west. Perhaps moving along the way they divided into R1a, R1b, this is no longer important. What is important is that this does not contradict my words.
@MrFunk
"@CordedSlav
no, I'm not confusing anything, ANE was originally a Siberian population that stewed in its own juice for several thousand years, divided into branches R, Q, R1, R2, and only then moved west. Perhaps moving along the way they divided into R1a, R1b, this is no longer important. What is important is that this does not contradict my words".
Nobody denied that. I have been saying that from the begining, but Mal'ta boy is a dead end line and all the subclades of R1 (except perhaps R-PH155) formed in Europe (east or west). African R-V88-s descend from an European Y, but after 7000 Years they are Africans and not Europeans. As Massimo Pallottino, and before him Theodor Mommsen, said, a people had a formation and as you can easily see peoples are different and in fight, in the past in the present and in the next future, and you will see next.
Everyone understands that R1 and ANE is from Siberia, but R1a is not from Siberia.
That's like saying I1 is from the Caucasus or Iran, because IJ* emanated there
But I understand what Mr Funk is syaing that R1b is not really a WHG marker, but the issue is WHG is not actually from western Europe.
R1b is the WHG marker par excellence, in fact it is what we know as Villabruna cluster. The first R1b-L754 documented in the record of ancient samples is in mainland europe, not in Asia (neither in Siberia, nor in Kazakhstan, Iran, Anatolia etc...), is this so difficult to understand???....
R1a-M420 is the typical EHG marker, while Q1a-F746, Q1b-L53 and other Q subclades are typical Siberian markers. It is important to understand that all these samples are contemporary, i.e. Villabruna-R1b-L754-12.000 BC, Peschanitsa-R1a-10.705 BC, Afontova Gora-Q1a-F746-14.760 BC, Ust'-Kyakhta-Q1b-L53-11.979 BC etc and all these HGs have ANE blood in different proportions.
This means that each marker had its territories i.e. Siberia is absolutely Q, there is no R1b nor R1a nor I1-M253 nor I2-M438. Q arrived in Ukraine NEO501 (8,672 BCE)-Vasilevka1-Q1b-L472>L56-M436 and Baltic I4550 (6,538 BCE)-Zvejnieki, Latvia-Q1b2b-L472>L56>Y2659>Y2700 during the mesolithic ergo this marker collaborated to the expansion of the Siberian ancestry.
The Epigravettian culture spread northward as the ice retreated and that some of these R1b such as P297 and V1636 became "more" EHGs due to a considerable increase in ANE ancestry. Others remained in Western Europe, for example ATP3 (3,500 BC) in Iberia which is considered by Harvard as P297 (although it has some positive SNPs for M269), and which has nothing to do with the EHGs.
The Gravettian culture spread throughout Europe and northern Asia and no one knows when and how R* arrived in Siberia, the mammoth hunters like the rest of the HGs were nomadic and therefore fixing an exact site for their origin is a practically impossible task. Whereas R2 seems to be a central and southern Asian affair, R1 could be nearby or simply have reached Europe shortly after its formation (20000-15,000 BC), in any case R1a has its origin in Eastern Europe and R1b in Western Europe until someone finds samples of these markers in other regions.
yes R1 was somewhere nearby, but like R2, it was the result of genetic drift of the Malta sample, autosomal similar to AG3
interesting new paper on celtic britons
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08409-6?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0bIRiY_PIxqlfMeU_vAwH4XkibGkzr8FsoUC1oig-NH89V68-CbWrRbR8_aem_ZmOHLw91NnrafqLckupMSw
The 90% R1b Britons were ruled over by their women, much like today in western feminized society. They were pathetically annihilated by the Romans (https://i.imgur.com/LIvLaCa.png) and then colonized by the Germanic Angles, Saxons, Jutes, and later Normans. Are these 90% Beaker descendants really descended from the supposed Patriarchal, War-Like, Indo-Europeans? All of their known history is an outright contradiction to everything in Horsey Wheellie Speaky.
@Romulus
"Are these 90% Beaker descendants really descended from the supposed Patriarchal, War-Like, Indo-Europeans?"
Ahahahahah
It seems however that the source of continental shift in MLBA & IA Britain arrives from different regions, ranging from Iberia to Czechia. It does pose interesting questions about what linguistic impact they would have had
Contrary to what Tom Rowsell would say, NOT very Indo-European... And he himself descends from these R1b and I1 men who neither were patrilocal...
It's naive to think that the distant Y-haplogroup descendants of steppe people should maintain their patriarchal culture.
Especially considering that there was so much contact and mixing with other cultures after the steppe people moved deep into Europe, and also factors such as genetic drift that can skew Y-haplogroup frequencies.
It's actually more idiotic than expecting that modern Scandinavians should be the same warlike people as the Vikings just because most of them still belong to I1.
Does patriarchy and militancy depend on the Y chromosome?
"Why wouldn't they just morph into cucks for no reason, what are you an IDIOT?"
Ok Davidski this says more about your innate proclivities than it does about me.
@Romulus the I2a... and so on
I hope you're joking, otherwise you would have to buy a brain and to learn about human beings and history before to write cracks...
@ Romulus
Im confused, where are you from then ?
@ Mr Funk
Is your pseudo-Yamnaya avatar a self-portrait ?
@CordedSlav
Yes, he looks like me and like your ancestors at the same time
The local Kura Araks guys were much lighter and prettier
@ Mr Funk
''Yes, he looks like me and like your ancestors at the same time
The local Kura Araks guys were much lighter and prettier''
lol bro if you look like that then you need help.
I think morphology is a bit of a pseudoscience, but if i had to believe anbody it would be something closer to AW
https://x.com/Sulkalmakh/status/1875892925433004529?mx=2
Either way, CW doesn't derive from Yamnaya
fighting with a horse
https://x.com/zabeast_style/status/1880305946708308064
@CordedSlav
https://x.com/Sulkalmakh/status/1875892954101162379?s=19
https://x.com/Sulkalmakh/status/1875892935121912206?s=19
https://x.com/Sulkalmakh/status/1626248575683371009
https://x.com/nrken19/status/1850921612482121864
Back to linguistics & DNA
1- ''https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08409-6?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0bIRiY_PIxqlfMeU_vAwH4XkibGkzr8FsoUC1oig-NH89V68-CbWrRbR8_aem_ZmOHLw91NnrafqLckupMSw''
The shift seems to be toward a later introduction of Celtic into Britain, but it's sparked off some debates on the Web
2. Copper Axe
''Such a location would be consistent with strontium isotopes of the Late Neolithic Swedes of Central Sweden which link with eastern and northern Sweden, Finland and possibly Karelia and with similarities in pottery styles between Late Neolithic Sweden and the Kiukainen culture (4500–3800 BP) of southwestern Finland and the Γ land Islands47–50 389 . Combined, the results point to the presence of an unsampled hunter-gatherer population, likely carrying I1 haplogroups, admixing with a Corded Ware-related population, similar to those of Scandinavia, to form the Eastern Scandinavians somewhere between Finland and Northeast Sweden. At present, no genomes from this region and time period exist."
Seems like they are doubling down on this theory.''
A guy called 'Strider' is stating that n upcoming paper will show I1 in Pitted Ware culture individuals.
@ Mr. Funk
''https://x.com/Sulkalmakh/status/1875892954101162379?s=19''
Okay, you was Yamnaya
He says the opposite about Pitted Ware, and doesn't seem to know anything more about the results:
" There are two upcoming studies that I'm aware of. One is part of a project that was completed in early 2022 and it will include Pitted Ware and Funnel Beaker samples from the Alvastra pile-dwelling. I think it's highly unlikely that this study will be relevant for I1 given the results of previous samples from those cultures but it's still something I've been looking forward to seeing"
@CordedSlav
Well, this guy on the avatar really does look like me)
@ Ethan - Okay, I must have misread it initially.
@CordedSlav
using a copper rod and a ruler, I measured the width of the face, it turned out to be about 16 millimeters π¨
lots of brains
that is, centimeters
@Davidski
Off topic, but do you know whether modern Svans or Megrels better match the CHG-related ancestry ubiquitous to the PC Steppe?
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/10/yamnayas-exotic-ancestry-kartvelian.html
In this blogpost of yours, you came to conclusion Megrels were the best fit with TreeMix, but you didn't have access to genotyped Svans back then. Now since you do, have you ever revisited this puzzle?
@Asega
Well, what a stupid question, the answer is so obvious and lies on the surface that I will not voice it
they are not Kartvelians or Georgians. The CHG source is not from there.
@ Ethan
Ive noticed that PWC have 2 sub-variants of I2a - one related to TRB one from the east, related to Saktich
@ Asega
''Off topic, but do you know whether modern Svans or Megrels better match the CHG-related ancestry ubiquitous to the PC Steppe?''
I dont think these modern proxies are relevant any more due to aDNA
(although some modern Caucasians seem to still larp about being ancestral to Yamnaya on the internet ; they actually come from Iron Age hill tribes)
Btw
The ''North Pontic crossroads: '' paper is out. The supplement is a bit of a headache
@Asega
Even if TreeMix prefers one over the other, it'll just be a statistical artifact, because neither Svans nor Megrels are ancestral to Yamnaya.
For such a test to be meaningful, we would need Yamnaya to receive gene flow from the distant ancestors of Svans or Megrels, and then for these two lines to be largely separated since the Copper Age.
In that old blog post of mine, I used modern Georgians as just a proxy to prove that the CHG in Yamnaya was from the Caucasus, rather than from some absurd source like Iran, Central Asia or South Asia.
@ Davidski
In the FTDNA site, the sequence R1a-Y2>Y27>L657 is considered to have an origin in Ukraine, Thailand !!!, and unknown country, respectively. Did you see that? Is it coherent?
This is best ignored.
FTDNA in this case is operating in an abstract world constrained by the samples that it has to work with.
This is a common problem in genetic studies, and it's one of the reasons why R1a was claimed to have originated in Iran or India by supposedly serious academics in supposedly serious journals.
@Carlos Aramayo
perhaps a man with this mutation was born among representatives of Indo-Iranian nomadic cultures in Kazakhstan or Central Asia
You seem to be referring to where some modern testers are placed on their time tree. For such modern testers, who only enough data to place them somewhere upstream, I don't think they are necessarily implying that they represent some kind of basal clade.
Their "Globetrekker" and "Migration Map" does run into the problems mentioned by Davidski though.
People make funny interpretations from ftDNA & YFull, which are actually excellent resources.
@ Mr Funk
"perhaps a man with this mutation was born among representatives of Indo-Iranian nomadic cultures in Kazakhstan or Central Asia."
That's the usual inference even to Y27>L657, but downstream, reaching Y9 (TMRCA is c. 1750 BCE) and they estimate origin in India at that date.
@ EthanR
"You seem to be referring to where some modern testers are placed on their time tree..."
Yes, Migration Map in FTDNA site shows a case in which P moves from Bangladesh to China and Mongolia, where it becomes R moving towards Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan, becoming Z93:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-Y9/migration
Here's a new paper, claiming the first two Sogdian aDNA samples:
Zhang et al., (2025). "Unraveling the origins of the sogdians: Evidence of genetic admixture between ancient central and East Asians"
https://tinyurl.com/3ewn9hjx
Abstract:
"The Silk Road, an ancient trade route connecting China with the West, facilitated the exchanges of goods, ideas, and cultural practices among diverse civilizations. The Sogdians were prominent merchants along the Silk Road, renowned for their roles as traders, artisans, and entertainers. They migrated to China, forming enduring communities that produced multiple generations of descendants. Despite their historical importance, primary written records detailing the origins of the Sogdians and their interactions with local populations are limited. In this study, we generated genome-wide data for two ancient individuals from a joint burial (M1401) in the Guyuan cemetery dating to the Tang Dynasty (618–907 CE). To our knowledge, this represents the first ancient genomic data obtained from the Sogdian population. Our results reveal that the female individual exhibits local ancestry, while the male carries both local ancestry and additional genetic components linked to the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) in Central Asia. This was introduced into the local gene pool approximately 18 generations ago. Combining historical, archaeological, and genetic analyses, we conclude that the two individuals were likely husband and wife. Our findings suggest that Sogdians, who initially traveled to China for trade, settled, intermarried with local populations, and played a significant role as intermediaries in Silk Road commerce. This study highlights the importance of Sogdiana at the end of the first millennium BCE in fostering connections between the Hellenistic world and the Qin/Han dynasties, emphasizing early Sogdian identity traits that preceded their later prominence as key merchants of the Silk Road."
@Carlos Aramayo
"Our results reveal that the female individual exhibits local ancestry, while the male carries both local ancestry and additional genetic components linked to the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) in Central Asia."
Weren't the Sogdians Iranian speaking?
@ Ashish
"Pretty sure FTDNA nowhere claims origin in Thailand. It's your misreading. L657 originated sometime in Fedorovo"
Actually it seems you never accessed FTDNA and you misread what I wrote. They show Y27 (R-M634) as originated in Thailand and estimated it through testers. Or maybe you do not know R1a-Y27 is equal to R1a-M634:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-M634/classic
@ Mr Funk
"Weren't the Sogdians Iranian speaking?"
Sogdians spoke an Iranian language indeed, the surprise is that Zhang et al (2025) are linking it to BMAC and not to Yaz culture as expected.
@Carlos Aramayo
R-M634 c. 2050 BCE this is possible, late Fatyanovo/early Sintashta, if such a definition makes sense at all
These Sogdians are from China, from southern Ningxia so Northwest but not like Xinjiang. So probably the local ancestry is Yellow River.
I am curious how they have determined those human remains to be those of Sogdians. Both belong to mtDNA haplogroup C7, which is a relatively southern (mainly found in South China & Indochina) branch of otherwise typically North Asian & American mtDNA haplogroup C. The male specimen belongs to Y-DNA haplogroup C-K700 [TMRCA 9650 ybp] > C-CTS3385 [TMRCA 7930 ybp]; this is the relatively less common (found in about 0.65% of all males in present-day China versus its sister clade, C-F1319 [TMRCA 8470 ybp], which is found in about 2.51% of all males in present-day China) branch of C-K700. C-K700, and especially its C-F1319 subclade, is the most common sort of Y-DNA haplogroup C in present-day China, and there has been some speculation that a certain subclade of C-F1319 may represent the Y-DNA of the Shang Dynasty, Confucius, the (Sima Ang, King of Yin >) Jin Dynasty, etc. Besides this male so-called Sogdian from Guyuan, Ningxia, C-CTS3385 also has been found in the Shengedaliang 27/SM-SGDLM27 specimen from 2250 - 1950 BCE, Late Neolithic Shimao culture, Shengedaliang site, Shenmu, Shaanxi, which is, like Guyuan, located within the great loop of the Yellow River. How should an Early Medieval Sogdian have come to possess a Y-chromosome that belongs to the same clade as one of the skull-piling people of the Late Neolithic Shimao culture? Besides the haplogroups, these ancient specimens from Guyuan appear to be nearly identical to Han Chinese in regard to autosomes.
@ Ashish
"I've accesed Z93 related FTDNA pages more than you..."
Of course you are the 'Holy Spirit' or parabrahman to be beside me and know everything I do. But anyway, you're are also wrong by saying "[t]his only means Y27 has been found in someone whose earliest traceable paternal origin is in Thailand." It's actually the earliest estimate for paternal ancestry of all samples that point out to Thailand.
This is a pointless conversation but Ashish is correct:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-M634/tree
"Present-day tester with self-reported earliest known paternal origin.
Country of origin: Thailand"
And then it's the same thing for the Ukrainian tester you mentioned on the clade just upstream.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-AM00479/tree
Both R-FT197453 and Q-Y4800, and especially subbranches R-L657 and Q-F1161, are clearly connected to the spread of Indo-Aryan groups. Both these branches were present at Nepluyevsky among the Srubnaya-Alakul and both later show up among Brahmins in India. It is even possible that Q-L527 brought DOM2 horses and chariots to Scandinavia at the beginning of the Bronze Age, perhaps as part of the Seima-Turbino phenomenon, since Q-F1161 also took part in this phenomenon, although I argue for a much later arrival of this branch. Some of you may not know this but the presence of a Y-DNA branch in Thailand, in addition to its presence in Tajikistan, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Nepal and Sri Lanka, is a very good indicator of Indo-Aryan migrations. See R Balakrishnan... Some of these subbranches later show up among various equestrian steppe nomadic groups and may have been spread both to the West and to the South by later Hun/Huna peoples.
Davidski, do you still regret that Americans elected Trump?
In my opinion, he is a charismatic enough leader, the crowd loves him. Especially in the deep people of the USA. Yes, he loves to lie and is a damn demagogue. Well, at least he can answer for his words.
maybe not everything is as bad as it seems to us?
What does this tree demonstrate? That R-M634 (2060 BCE) expanded to South Asia and from there easternmost and westernmost, but R-AM00479 (2163 BCE) have sample in Ukraine) and only from R-FTB662 (1403 CE) in Arabs. The oldest R-F2597 (2285 BCE) is found in aDNA in Nepluyevsky (1877-1642 BCE) in Srubnaya-Alakul Culture, R-FT197453 (2498 BCE) had R-Y37 2021 BCE) with the same expansion of R-M634, etc etc Thus this was the time of the expansion of the Indo-European peoples from eastern Europe elsewhere. No upstreanm sample lived out of Europe. No sample found in aDNA in Asia is older than this date and this is the date post quem of the migration.
@Karl O Hogstrom
"Some of you may not know this but the presence of a Y-DNA branch in Thailand, in addition to its presence in Tajikistan, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Nepal and Sri Lanka, is a very good indicator of Indo-Aryan migrations. See R Balakrishnan... Some of these subbranches later show up among various equestrian steppe nomadic groups and may have been spread both to the West and to the South by later Hun/Huna peoples".
Of course some hgs came back to Europe from Asia not only of the hg R1a but also R1b, but only downstream subclades of the oldest subclades migrated from Europe. The only oldest sample of the hg R1b that could have been born in Asia is R-PH155 or some very rare upstream sample. As other said in this blog: find aDNA oldest than R1b1 Villabruna in Asia (and not dead end lines like Mal'ta boy) or of R1a's and we'll discuss again about this question.
@Mr Funk
"Davidski, do you still regret that Americans elected Trump?"
Do you still regret that Russians elected Putin?
The reason I ask that is because what Russia and you got from getting Putin is exactly what the Americans will get from Trump.
@Davidski
We'll wait and see
@Romulus
What is important in this work is not the matriarchy of the Durotriges or the annihilation of the British Celts but the role played by G2a-L497 in the possible arrival of the Celtic language in the British Isles (according to Cassidy because of the remarkable increase of the EEF component in southern Britain). After Gretzinger who showed that a large part of the Central European Celtic elites belonged to this lineage, the appearance of the same markers in Britain does not seem to be a coincidence.
*MBG010 (573 BCE)-Magdalenenberg, grave100b, Germany-G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a-Z1823
*I12772 (378 BCE)-St. Merryn, Padstow, MIA_England-G2a2b2a1a1b-Z1816>Z1823
*I19587 (94 BCE)-Scorton Quarry, IA_England-G2a2b2a1a1b-Z1823
*HOC002 (515 BCE)-Hochdorf, Hallstatt, Germany-G2a2b-L497>Y7538>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803
*WBK195 (25 CE)-Winterborne, Durotriges_IA, England- G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a2a-CTS4803
@Gaska
Your hypothesis is interesting, because G-Z1823, formed 4600 Years ago, has a diffusion at least from 4000 Years ago both northward and southward from the eastern Alps/central Europe, and the upstream G-L497 has been thought for so long an Etruscan marker. About the oldest origin it is demonstrated that the Etruscans had nothing to do with Anatolia but just with the eastern Alps and a diffusion not only to Italy but westward to Southern France and Iberia. The oldest G-L91 of Oetzi is documented in Italy even before the same Oetzi and the hg G-L91 in the Etruscans was closely linked with R-U152 and even R-L2, thus probably the same population spoke later either Etruscan or Italo-Celtic… and the link could be very old if the same Etruscan Language was intermediate, as to Alfredo Trombetti, between a Caucasian language (the Caucasian language of the Alps: Sardinian and Basque) and Indo-European, very likely the Italo-Celtic branch.
Alberto is mentally unstable.
Similar mental problems to Carlos Quiles.
@Davidski
Please take a look at this preprint, in which two oulier samples at Urziceni-VamΔ are mentioned to be R1b (in graves 12 and 79), c. 4800 - 3900 cal BCE:
"After subdividing the ECA Urziceni-VamΔ dataset based on pottery styles (BodrogkeresztΓΊr and BodrogkeresztΓΊr-SalcuΘa), we observe ... [t]he paternal genetic diversity is also larger at Urziceni-VamΔ than at Basatanya (Fig. S11). Y-lineages include C2a, which is associated with Mesolithic people and H2 and G2a elements of Neolithic origin1, as well as potentially new external influences such as R1b from steppe-outliers (graves 12 and 79)."
SzΓ©csΓ©nyi-Nagy, Anna, et al., ( January 03, 2025). "Ancient DNA reveals diverse community organizations in the 5th millennium BCE Carpathian Basin"
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.01.02.631136v1.full
@ Ashish
''https://adnaera.com/2024/12/08/origins-and-spread-of-indo-european-languages-an-alternative-view/''
Well, it's overly ambitious to do a post which theorises everything, ranging from the Caucasus to NW Europe and from IE to Basque.
It's good to see Alberto & FrankN's still around but sad to see their views are founded on cemented pre-convictions rather than a credible or up to date assessment of evidence.
@Carlos Aramayo
Only the first R1b is new:
I23123 This study P7330 (79) Context: Archaeological 6065 25 4270-3970 BCE Urziceni-VamΔ (Satu Mare County) Romania 47.7467 22.395 cochlea Vienna Boston robotic Rohland 2018 (Dabney Buffer, silica beads) S23123.Y1.E1.L1 Boston ds partial Rohland 2015; silica coated magnetic beads and 7x volume PB (Qiagen) for cleanups, Bst2.0 in smaller volume, 100ul total PCR volume, higher primer concentration, SPRI cleanup of PCR 1240k+v2 Fu 2013; simultaneous enrichment of ~1.2M SNPs and mtDNA Fu 2013; simultaneous enrichment of ~1.2M SNPs and mtDNA HiSeq X10 2x101, 2x7 264 779 0,43124416 50,7 180,2 57,9 0,133 [0.982, 0.997] 31 792 637 5,975 906988 60,2 0,1365 122037 94609 M Pass PASS S23123.Y1.E1.L1 1 0.004572 0.0007455145 5851 0.003135 0.002308 0.003962 0 0 R1b R-M343*(xL502,V69,PH1030) U4 0.952 n/a (no relatives detected) n/a (no relatives detected) n/a (no relatives detected)
The other is from a previous known paper:
I7127 LazaridisAlpaslanRoodenbergScience2022 M12; Urzi12 Direct: IntCal20 6005 25 PSUAMS-4226, 5240±25 BP, 4224-3976 cal BCE Urziceni-VamΔ (Satu Mare County) Romania 47.7467 22.395 cochlea Vienna Boston manual Dabney 2013, Korlevic 2015 S7127.E1.L1 Boston ds partial Rohland 2015; silica coated magnetic beads and 7x volume PB (Qiagen) for cleanups, Bst2.0 in smaller volume, 100ul total PCR volume, higher primer concentration, SPRI cleanup of PCR 1240k Maricic 2010; separate enrichment for mtDNA Fu 2013; 390k and 840k targets combined into a single capture NextSeq 500 2x76, 2x7 436 343 0,7571 43 158 45 0,146 [0.989,0.997] 18 359 815 3,361 905549 48 0,122 27601 19558 M Pass Xcontam=0.009 PASS S7127.E1.L1 1 .. .. .. .. .. .. 0 0 R1b1 R-CTS3063/etc*(xCTS9018,BY15390,PF6301) U5a2d 0,9622 n/a (no relatives detected) n/a (no relatives detected) n/a (no relatives detected)
It is possible that these two R1b samples in the Carpatian Basin are late remnants of the Villabrunans and that could demonstrate that that wasn't the place where the subclades formed from, and we are at the time of R-L23...
And don't forget that the mt U5b3 and more U5b3f was born and expanded from Italy (whereas my friend Paolo Francalacci supposed in Southern France). There is people who consider Barcin (Anatolia) at the origin and not a point of migration from North yet?
I23121 This study P7328 (47) Context: Archaeological 6065 25 4270-3970 BCE Urziceni-VamΔ (Satu Mare County) Romania 47.7467 22.395 cochlea Vienna Boston robotic Rohland 2018 (Dabney Buffer, silica beads) S23121.Y1.E1.L1 Boston ds partial Rohland 2015; silica coated magnetic beads and 7x volume PB (Qiagen) for cleanups, Bst2.0 in smaller volume, 100ul total PCR volume, higher primer concentration, SPRI cleanup of PCR 1240k+v2 Fu 2013; simultaneous enrichment of ~1.2M SNPs and mtDNA Fu 2013; simultaneous enrichment of ~1.2M SNPs and mtDNA HiSeq X10 2x101, 2x7 162 276 0,58170684 52,2 204,4 60 0,1015 [0.985, 0.998] 18 131 954 0,154 882125 62,8 0,108 92738 69844 M Pass PASS S23121.Y1.E1.L1 1 0.004029 0.0008894476 5015 0.003188 0.002213 0.004163 4.380697 0 G2a2b2a1 G-Z764*(xU1,Z738,Z43085,Z46202,BY188836,V8.2) U5b3f 0.9258 n/a (no relatives detected) n/a (no relatives detected) n/a (no relatives detected)
Urziceni I7127 is R1b-V88, so it is not an 'Eneolithic steppe marker' , although there are of course Eneolithic individuals from the steppe zone who are R1b-V88 (e.g. Dereivka)
it's just a difficult theory to sustain - the IAMC hunters-cum-quasi-caprid-pastoralists of 6000 BC are overwhelmingly WSHG/ ANE in ancestry, yes they have ~ 20% Iran_N related ancestry. So why would they switch to Iran N language, or vice-versa ? They remain completely different people.
Lingua Franca theories are just too cliche and dont adequately understand sociolinguistics. Yes people need a common tongue to trade, but only a handful of traders need to know the language of 'the others', its not like the entire population back home needs to shift. It's such as ordeal and oppurtunity cost to do so, it's unnatural and rarely occurred.
I recall reading the Jaakobites on GA have made a similar claim about Eskimo-speaking haplogroup N folk switching to 'the FU language of the Volga-Ural region' 'because- the Normans'.
True, the normans did adopt French, but its a false analogy and therefore a strawman arguement. Northmen were granted Normandy in fief by a Middle Age heirarchic feudal society. The (real) FU speakers from Siberia migrated during the MLBA into the recently de-populated lands of the cis-Urals.
Both Alberto and Frank are educated and intelligent guys, everyone can disagree and no one is absolutely right, it's fun to comment publicly what you think.
@Carlos
We have already talked about these samples-We have different clades of R1b (including M269) in the Balkans and Carpathian Basin since the Mesolithic. Linking that marker exclusively to steppe movements of the Yamnaya culture is one of the biggest mistakes Harvard has made in its history.
*I23123 (4.120 BCE)-Urziceni-VamΔ, Satu Mare, Romania-R1b-M343-SzΓ©csΓ©nyi-Nagy, 2.025
*I7127 (4.100 BCE)-Urziceni, Bodrogkeresztur, Romania-R1b1a-L754 Lazaridis, 2.022-HARVARD.
There is another much more interesting sample.
*PIE064 (4.499 BCE)-Pietrele, Gumelnita, Bulgaria-R1b1a1b-PF6517-M269-Penske, 2.023
Alberto and Frank are just crackpots with too much time on their hands. Same as Vasistha and Quiles.
Quiles was really obsessed with me. He was stuck to me like a turd on the bottom of my shoe, until he finally realized it wasn't worth making an idiot of himself in public.
@ Gaska
''*PIE064 (4.499 BCE)-Pietrele, Gumelnita, Bulgaria-R1b1a1b-PF6517-M269-Penske, 2.023''
Sadly, PIE064 seems to be 'greyed out' on the suppl. data table of Penske et al. It is lower coverage (0.084x) and seems to have high contamination rate. But maybe Y-callers have had a closer look ?
The increase in "EEF" between LBA and EIA in Britain is rather moderate (what doesn't prove the total input was so weak: LBA-IA of West-Central Europe (supposedly Celts) were not so different from Insular people). The shift from some proto-Italo-Celtic IE and true Celtic there is still a question. The weak late input(for me) of Y-G2a among "future" insular Celtic speaking pop's seems marking an introgression from continental Celts among whom Y-R1b post-P312 were still over-dominant. Y-G2a's (whatever the subclade) were not the Celtic launcher by themselves; maybe these elements mark the Urnfields/Post-Urnfields elements who took part in the modifications of some Italo-Celtic dialect into definite Celtic languages but it's still to be proved. This birth of Celtic could have taken place more in West and before...
Gio wrote: "The oldest G-L91 of Oetzi is documented in Italy even before the same Oetzi and the hg G-L91 in the Etruscans"
Quick note about Oetzi. It now looks like this resident of Alps from around 3100 BCE is directly descended from Anatolian farmers and with little mixing with local hunter-gatherers or steppes ancestry. He shows a lot of local social and economic contact so it look his ancestors traveled a long way to set up a distinct colony a pretty long way from Anatolia. One might suspect that there was more than one of these kind of restrictive G2a enclaves that were maybe connected to the copper trade or some other clan with trade secrets that keep them isolated from other groups.
“We were very surprised to find no traces of Eastern European Steppe Herders in the most recent analysis of the Iceman genome; the proportion of hunter-gatherer genes in Γtzi’s genome is also very low. Genetically, his ancestors seem to have arrived directly from Anatolia without mixing with hunter gatherer groups,” explains Johannes Krause...
https://www.mpg.de/20711365/0804-evan-dark-skin-bald-head-anatolian-ancestry-150495-x
@Ashish I haven't read the whole post and am not familiar with Alberto, but I did notice that he cites Arnaud Fournet, who is well-known in Uralic and IE online circles for making belligerent claims based on poor original research (e.g. doesn't follow reconstructional standards for proposed deep-level cognates, of which there are hundreds; believes that expert Uralicists like Ante Aikio have no idea how to reconstruct Proto-Uralic, and only he knows the "truth", etc.) - basically one of those rogue hobbyists who believes they will rewrite all of ancient human history as a fabulous macro-theory against a corrupt system of lies. I would personally ignore any parts that cite his research.
@ Livonia G
''Quick note about Oetzi. It now looks like this resident of Alps from around 3100 BCE is directly descended from Anatolian farmers and with little mixing with local hunter-gatherers or steppes ancestry. He shows a lot of local social and economic contact so it look his ancestors traveled a long way to set up a distinct colony a pretty long way from Anatolia. One might suspect that there was more than one of these kind of restrictive G2a enclaves that were maybe connected to the copper trade or some other clan with trade secrets that keep them isolated from other groups.
“We were very surprised to find no traces of Eastern European Steppe Herders in the most recent analysis of the Iceman genome; the proportion of hunter-gatherer genes in Γtzi’s genome is also very low. Genetically, his ancestors seem to have arrived directly from Anatolia without mixing with hunter gatherer groups,” explains Johannes Krause...
https://www.mpg.de/20711365/0804-evan-dark-skin-bald-head-anatolian-ancestry-150495-x''
Gotta be careful with media interviews and buzzwords.
As Otzi dates to ~ 3100 BC, and isn't from northern Bulgaria, I dont understand why we should be surprised about the lack of steppe ancestry.
Otzi's clade is under G2-PF3239, which entered Europe 2,000 years earlier is found all over Neolithic Transdanubia.
His specific lineage G-L166 is part of a cluster associated with the Horgen group in Switzerland and an older individual in Neolithic France
So this was not an isolated, recent Anatolian group, but seems to be an Alpine expansion during the LN-Copper Age into Italy.
@Rob
The oldest aDNA of G-Z6128 (9228 BCE) found at Barcin are about 6500 BCE, Barcin and not elsewhere in Anatolia. Do you think that we have to continue to follow the Levantinists, the Harvardians and their rich sponsor, the Ex Oriente lux and many other inspired books?
Also Sicans in Sicily had hg G at least 8000 Years old and Sicans as Sicels as Elymians spoke languages of Italy linked to Latin or Ligurian...
LOL just had a look at Alberto's forum. To disassociate PIE with an obvious locality in the Pontic-steppe and rather place it in Iran and India, he has to make eastern CW (Fatyanovo) Uralic. He even makes Unetice Uralic-speaking
https://adnaera.com/2024/12/08/appendix-i-uralic-languages/
He's either completely ignorant or just outwardly trolling, but is conceited enough to claim his posts are there to guide academic linguists. Maybe Heggarty will bite :)
His take is basically Quilles 2.0
russia wants to rename the Black Sea into the russian sea, this is a kind of "answer to Trump"
https://kuban24.tv/item/deputat-iz-saratova-predlozhil-pereimenovat-chernoe-more-v-russkoe
f@cking nuts?
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Muscovy_1390_1525.png
Pretty far from the Black Sea if you ask me.
@Radiosource
I hope one Ukrainian drone flies into this deputy's @ss so that other russian deputies never have such thoughts in their heads again
@Radiosource
I think this sea should be called the proto-indo-european sea.
@ Moesan
The Urnfield phenomenon is heterogeneous. It's core region in the East Alpine and west Carpathian region looks like a resurgance of pre-IE groups, to me (with Y-hg G2, J2a, E-V13. etc), although it is of course not as simple as haplogroup = language. The tradition of Urnfields was then adopted amongst other groups further East, incl Celtic, Nordic, Balto-Slavic, .. Villanovan's is a complex topic.
Carlos Aramayo wrote,
"Please take a look at this preprint, in which two oulier samples at Urziceni-VamΔ are mentioned to be R1b (in graves 12 and 79), c. 4800 - 3900 cal BCE:
...
SzΓ©csΓ©nyi-Nagy, Anna, et al., ( January 03, 2025). "Ancient DNA reveals diverse community organizations in the 5th millennium BCE Carpathian Basin"
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.01.02.631136v1.full"
The author's comment about "C2a" seems to be a mistake for "C1a2."
As for R1b, the only new R1b specimen in this study is I23123 from Urziceni-VamΔ (Satu Mare County), Romania. A direct radiocarbon dating has not been provided for this specimen; the date of 4270-3970 BCE has been determined according to the archaeological context in which the specimen has been found. The Y-DNA has been determined to belong to haplogroup R-M343*(xL502,V69,PH1030), and the mtDNA has been determined to belong to haplogroup U4. This specimen's Y-DNA might belong to R-V1636 or to some branch of R-PF6323(xV69).
@All
For discussions about the G25 please go here.
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/07/getting-most-out-of-global25_12.html
@ CordedSlav
''His take is basically Quilles 2.0''
There's only similtude for Uralic= CWC type paradigm. I didnt read the entire post, however Alberto's views seem very different to Carlos', as he perceives PIE to emerge from India or Iran. Carlos poposed that PIE emerged from the Khvalynsk system, on the basis of dominant R1b-M269 groups.
@Rob
I agree, it's why I CONCEDE that some contacts with (genuine first) Urnfields people (among them Y-G2a... bearers) could have partly modified Italo-Celtic languages to form Celtic; but it isn't my (provisory) personal "religion" because I believe Celtic began to form a bit sooner than Urnfields.
@ Moesan
My point was that the commonly held view (incl myself at one time), that is Urnfield is Celtic or even italic is problematic because the phenomenon appears to be non-IE at its core (in the west carpathian basin). And yes it’s probably too late as well
@Rob
Things are getting worse and worse for the russians
https://x.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1883167709204287491
π«‘
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