Language trees with sampled ancestors support a hybrid model for the origin of Indo-European languages, Heggarty et al. The genetic history of the Southern Arc: A bridge between West Asia and Europe, Lazaridis, Alpaslan-Roodenberg et al.The Heggarty et al. paper is pure fluff. It offers nothing useful or even remotely interesting. For instance, the authors derive some Indo-European languages in Europe from Anatolian farmers and others from Caucasus hunter-gatherers (see here). This is not just exceedingly far fetched, but also obviously forced. Wolfgang Haak and Johannes Krause, you should be deeply ashamed of yourselves. I've already commented extensively about the Lazaridis, Alpaslan-Roodenberg et al. paper (for example, see here). But the one thing I need to add is that this paper is what it is due to the inherent bias of some of the lead authors to push the Indo-Anatolian homeland into West Asia. I won't even bother mentioning their names, because we all know who they are. See also... Crazy stuff Dear David, Nick, Iosif...let's set the record straight The story of R-V1636
Saturday, August 12, 2023
Indo-European crackpottery
I've now had the chance to read and digest the following two papers in Science about the origin of Indo-European languages:
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This conversation is starting to be fun, every time I send you a post I will repeat the slogan that you have to try to memorize; Same origin, same male & female uniparental markers, same autosomal composition & shared IBD segments> the evidence for the genetic uniformity of European farmers is overwhelming and therefore so is the evidence that they spoke the same language.
I will continue to send you examples, maybe the time will come when you will stop talking nonsense. Try to notice, marker T2b23, which is first found in Macedonia_neolithic, it has also been found in Gumelnita-Karanovo VI culture (which coincidentally is the same as Smyadovo R1b-M269), and it has also been found in the Koros culture, ALPC (Hungary), LBK (Slovakia, Germany and Austria), Croatia etc. Do you think that the women and men of these cultures spoke different languages?
mtDNA-T2b23
Mavropigi, Macedonia, early neolithic-MAU2 (6.233 BC)
Szentpéterszeg-Körtvélyes II, cultura Koros culture Hungary-I18164-(5.650 BC )
Polgár-Ferenci hát, neolíthic ALPC, Hungary-I21902 (5.294 BC)
Nitra Horné Krškany, LBK, Slovakia-I14177 (5.150 BC)
Kleinhadersedt, neolithic LBK, Austria-I5068 (5.137 BC)
Stuttgart-Mühlhausen I, neolithic LBK, Germany-XN169 (5.138 BC)
Derenburg, neolithic LBK, Germany-DER012 (5.071 BC)
Yunatsite, Gumelnita culture-YUN014 (4.406 BC)
Potocani, neolíthic Croatia-I10271 (4.200 BC)
Kněževes, Unetice, Bohemia (2.119 BC)
Aren't you ashamed of repeating the same nonsense without providing any serious genetic data that could be taken into account in our conversation? “divergent histories in different geographic regions, differentiating economies, mixing with new people, emergences of new cultural identities, WHGs a very important contributor to their linguistic diversity.” Ha Ha Ha
Not only do you have no idea what you are talking about, but you will never be able to prove what you say,
@Gaska
"Same origin, same male & female uniparental markers, same autosomal composition & shared IBD segments>"
None of this translates to a static language for 5000 years lol
"Do you think that the women and men of these cultures spoke different languages?"
Not only do I think that, its a cold hard fact. Indeed it is likely that many individuals were multilingual to facilitate interactions across cultural boundaries
"Kněževes, Unetice, Bohemia (2.119 BC)"
In the Gaskan genetic model of language, this Unetice spoke the same language as LBK from 3000 years earlier because they shared a great(x100) grandmother. The ANF language was carved into her neurons and encoded into her genome. Aren't you ashamed of repeating the same nonsense without providing any serious genetic data that could be taken into account in our conversation?
"Not only do you have no idea what you are talking about, but you will never be able to prove what you say"
It is an unprovable proposition, but the weight of evidence strongly favours my argument while yours violates every principle of human nature
Not much discussion lately about "Balto-Slavic drift".
From where did it enter the Baltic and Central Europe during the Bronze Age? On the G25, it behaves similar to AASI, an unsampled HG population.
I think we should be cautious with our assumptions about Proto-Indo-European until we have found the source of that phenomenon. It already appears in Armenia_C, south of the Caucasus.
??
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ciqTO8ZlCppuwOj73vdLjjmu_9ZjJEzK/view
Do You not rather mean the comment of Paul Heggarty as eLetters Sep. 7, 2022 "Redefining Indo European Origins?" which urgently needs Your qualified comment! Thank You.
Hans J.J. G. Holm.
"For instance, the authors derive some Indo-European languages in Europe from Anatolian farmers and others from Caucasus hunter-gatherers (see here). This is not just exceedingly far fetched, but also obviously forced."
Dear Davidski, I will refrain from the usual insults here, and simply note that You misread the phylogeny in the Heggarty paper. It would be easier with the "consence Tree" they regrettably did not publish, but which I reconstructed out of their data. I made hundreds from different test runs of the former Bouckaert et al. paper (2012/2013). I can upload it, if I get a hint how to do that.
Best wishes
archlingo
@archlingo
You have to do that at a third party site, like Google Drive, and then post a text link here.
@Davidski
The consence tree HAS been published, only the link has not been corrected to now "Supplementary Materials - Figure S6.1" (not S5.1), where we also can see that the too old splits of Anatolian and Tocharian are poorly supported by the posterior probabilities.
archlingo
This Lazaridis (2022) paper is already out/updated by a bioxRiv preprint of the same lead author on the "origins of the Indo-Europeans". We urgently expect Your expertise about that!
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