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Thursday, May 28, 2020

An early Mitanni?


I've updated my Global25 datasheets with most of the ancients from the new Skourtanioti et al. paper. Here's a Principal Component Analysis (PCA) based on the data. It was produced with the Vahaduo PCA tools freely available here and the text file here.


Note that one of the Bronze Age females from Alalakh, labeled ALA019, appears to have ancestry from Turan and the Eurasian steppe. She may well have been a Mitanni of Indo-Aryan origin.

Interestingly, a Copper Age male from Arslantepe, ART038, belongs to Y-haplogroup R1b1a2 aka R1b-V1636. This is an unusual find, because R1b hasn't yet been reported in any Copper Age or earlier samples from outside of Europe and the Eurasian steppe.

As far as I can tell, this individual doesn't harbor any genome-wide ancestry from north of the Caucasus. However, R1b-V1636 is a rare lineage that is first attested in Eneolithic samples from the North Caucasus Piedmont steppe, so ART038's Y-chromosome might be the first evidence of the presence of steppe ancestry in Copper Age Anatolia.

I've also added most of the ancients from the new Agranat-Tamir et al. paper to the Gobal25 datasheets. The PCA below is based on the text file available here.


The Megiddo samples include a trio of interesting outliers dated to 1600-1500 BCE with significant ancestry from the steppe. One of these individuals is a male, I2189, who belongs to Y-haplogroup R and probably R1a. So he might also be of Indo-Aryan origin.

Another Megiddo male, S10768, belongs to R1b-M269 and probably shows a few per cent of steppe ancestry. I've already discussed how R1b and steppe ancestry may have ended up in the Bronze Age Near East in a couple of my previous posts:

R1b-M269 in the Bronze Age Levant

How did steppe ancestry spread into the Biblical-era Levant?

R-V1636: Eneolithic steppe > Kura-Araxes?

337 comments:

1 – 200 of 337   Newer›   Newest»
Rob said...

Isn’t “R1b1a2” ~ V88 ?

Simon_W said...

@Rob
"Isn’t “R1b1a2” ~ V88 ?"

No, according to the ISOGG tree 2019/2020 R1b1a2 is R-V1636, which is a brother clade to R-P297. R-V88 branched off earlier.

vAsiSTha said...

Using pop averages

Target: Levant_Alalakh_MLBA_o:ALA019
Distance: 2.4057% / 0.02405669
47.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1
32.0 UZB_Bustan_BA
15.8 KAZ_Zevakinskiy_MLBA
4.0 PAK_Loebanr_IA_o
0.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.0 Irula
0.0 KAZ_Dali_MLBA
0.0 PAK_Butkara_IA
0.0 PAK_Gogdara_IA
0.0 PAK_Katelai_IA
0.0 PAK_Katelai_LBA
0.0 PAK_Loebanr_IA

Yup, she looks related to the mitanni migration all right. Also related to the folks who got elephants, water buffaloes, zebus into the near east in mid 2nd mill bce.

But sadly, she has very little andronovo related ancestry as compared to bmac and east iranian. That too is closer to LBA steppe (more east asian mixed) than pure sintashta type.

Rob said...

Yep V3616 makes more sense .

Samuel Andrews said...

And R1b-V1636 is the kind of R1b in Khvalnsky and Steppe Piedmont Eneolithic and in Armenia Chalcolithic, correct? I believe Ukraine Neolithic belonged to a brother lineage of R1b-V1636. So this is a bonified Steppe lineage in Chalcolithic Anatolia.

Simon_W said...

R-V88 is R1b1b.

Davidski said...

@vAsiSTha

But sadly, she has very little andronovo related ancestry as compared to bmac and east iranian. That too is closer to LBA steppe (more east asian mixed) than pure sintashta type.

But she does have steppe ancestry, so everything fits the expected patterns.

Early Indo-Aryans came from the steppe, mixed in Central Asia, and then moved into Anatolia.

Davidski said...

@Samuel Andrews

And R1b-V1636 is the kind of R1b in Khvalnsky and Steppe Piedmont Eneolithic and in Armenia Chalcolithic, correct?

No, in Armenia_EBA (Kura-Araxes).

vAsiSTha said...

Yes davidski. the iranian ancestry did not transmit the indo-iranian language, the steppe miniscule component did. hahaha. heres another run. The steppe ancestry is from LBA, heavy in east asian.

Target: Levant_Alalakh_MLBA_o:ALA019
Distance: 2.3670% / 0.02366998
59.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1
18.2 UZB_Bustan_BA
10.6 KAZ_Zevakinskiy_LBA
4.6 KAZ_Zevakinskiy_MLBA
3.4 Levant_Alalakh_MLBA
2.4 PAK_Loebanr_IA_o
1.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.0 Irula
0.0 KAZ_Dali_MLBA
0.0 KAZ_Molaly_LBA
0.0 KAZ_Tasbas_IA
0.0 PAK_Butkara_IA
0.0 PAK_Gogdara_IA
0.0 PAK_Katelai_IA
0.0 PAK_Katelai_LBA
0.0 PAK_Loebanr_IA

Davidski said...

@vAsiSTha

You're confused, as usual.

People learn languages. They're not transmitted via genes or even linked to them.

Archi said...

Distance to: Levant_Alalakh_MLBA_o:ALA019
0.01782919 UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA:I4313
0.01845969 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7421
0.01923772 UZB_Bustan_BA_o1:I11521
0.01947588 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7492
0.01976082 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7419
0.02180046 UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA:I4315
0.02242186 UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA:I4163
0.02276181 UZB_Bustan_BA:I11027
0.02293404 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4286
0.02293534 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7420
0.02314908 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7416
0.02348659 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4288

UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA and UZB_Sappali_Tepe and UZB_Bustan_BA 1900-1500BC

Copper Axe said...

@Davidski

Could you check if there is BMAC-like ancestry in this sample? I remember that Narasimhan said there wasn't any significant contribution of BMAC ancestry in South Asia, and the migration was mainly steppe_mlba with a minority WSHG component.

Maybe these people didnt have that conflict with Zoroastrians like the (ancestors of the) Vedic Aryans had.

"Interestingly, one of the males from Copper Age Arslantepe, ART038, belongs to Y-haplogroup R1b1a2. This is an unusual find, because R1b hasn't yet been reported in any Copper Age samples from outside of Europe and the Eurasian steppe. However, as far as I can tell, this individual doesn't harbor any genome-wide ancestry from north of the Caucasus."

Doing my best Eske Willerslev impression:

THATS A GAMECHANGER!

Very interesting, can't wait to hear what is up. I can already hear the drumrolls of the southern homeland fans rolling!

Samuel Andrews said...

@Davidski,

Yeah, but she has hardly any Andronovo ancestry left. It fits the expected pattern but only barely. She doesn't have much more Andronovo ancestry than modern Kurds and Persians even though she lived really close in time to Andronovo.

Sure she spoke Aryan, but the vast majority of her ancestry was Southcentral Asia.

Davidski said...

@Samuel

Sure she spoke Aryan, but the vast majority of her ancestry was Southcentral Asia.

So what's your point? Indo-Iranians came from South Central Asia? LOL

Archi said...

Woman
Target: Levant_Alalakh_MLBA_o:ALA019
Distance: 0.7724% / 0.00772408
64.8 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA
14.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1
9.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1
6.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
2.2 UZB_Bustan_BA
1.8 UZB_Bustan_En
0.4 UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA
0.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.0 KAZ_Zevakinskiy_BA
0.0 KAZ_Zevakinskiy_LBA
0.0 KAZ_Zevakinskiy_MLBA
0.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o2
0.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o3
0.0 RUS_Sosonivoy_HG
0.0 RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA
0.0 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA
0.0 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA_o
0.0 RUS_Steppe_Maykop
0.0 RUS_Steppe_Maykop_o
0.0 UZB_Bustan_BA_o1
0.0 UZB_Bustan_BA_o2
0.0 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
0.0 UZB_Kashkarchi_BA
0.0 UZB_Kokcha_BA
0.0 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o
0.0 UZB_Sappali_Tepe2_BA

vAsiSTha said...

@davidski
It's you who hang on to your dreams.
Bmac shows intense fire worshipping Indo Aryan practices long before steppe had any impact on it, From gonur 2200bce to dzharkutan 1900bce to bustan 1500bce.

Davidski said...

@vAsiSTha

You're the one trying to push fringe theories here, not me.

vAsiSTha said...

"Indo-Iranians came from South Central Asia? LOL"
Lol this is literally the only region where indo iranian is attested.

Samuel Andrews said...

I'm just saying it is weird how little Andronov ancestry this Indo-Aryan has.

Indo-Iranian is from Southcentral Asia in the same way Spanish is from Central/South America. Really Spanish is from Spain, and Indo-Iranian is from Eastern Europe Steppe.

To see so little, Eastern European ancestry in this Mittani is odd. It does not follow the pattern I expected.

Archi said...

vAsiSTha said...
" @davidski
It's you who hang on to your dreams.
Bmac shows intense fire worshipping Indo Aryan practices long before steppe had any impact on it, From gonur 2200bce to dzharkutan 1900bce to bustan 1500bce."


That's not true, there are no Indo-Iranian practices, there's just Sarianidi's assumption that the BMAC also worshipped fire and supposedly has some resemblance to Zoroastrianism. This resemblance could have come from Sintashta at all. But Sarianidi never claimed that the Indo-Iranians were from BMAC.

It's a woman in the Levant on the Mediterranean, they don't migrate, they marry migrating men, so naturally they have a lot of intermediate components.

Davidski said...

@Samuel

So I guess you'll be surprised to learn that many early Indo-Aryan speakers had no steppe ancestry, because they learned their language.

Archi said...


ALA019 mito capture 29927 85,54 H2a3

Copper Corded Ware Czech Republic Bílina, Titzler's sandpit [I6695 / BILI_139, National Museum No. P7A 7564] 2900-2350 BCE F H2a3
England_CA_EBA Great Britain Barton Stacey, Hampshire, England [I2604, 62412_40173] 2265–2031 calBCE (3730±30 BP, SUERC-26241) F H2a3

Davidski said...

@Copper Axe

Definitely not a game changer. It actually pushes back in time somewhat the entry of paternal steppe ancestry into the Near East, because R-V1636 is a steppe lineage.

R-V1636: Eneolithic steppe > Kura-Araxes?

Coldmountains said...

ALA019 is very interesting. She don't seems to have ancestry from the region between the Levant and Central Asia else she would pick up Iran_C-like ancestry. So she likely is a first or second generation immigrant from the east and was likely born in Central Asia . Anyways i would not interpret too much into her low steppe. Indo-Iranian cultures were transformed when they went through BMAC and i guess the first waves of Indo-Iranians were extremely shifted towards BMAC. Also it is possible that she was a wife of some early Indo-Aryan guy with high steppe, who brought his wife from Central Asia with him. Both is possible

Matt said...

Yeah, as long as she has some steppe_MLBA related ancestry it is not inconsistent with a sort of Mitanni-Aryan argument.

But if her group had mostly Turan related ancestry, that is kind of inconsistent with some of the ideas on Anthrogenica presented at least, that Mitanni responsible for spreading Steppe_MLBA related ancestry in Levant (where I believe Haber found a pulse of Steppe related ancestry supposedly *without* much associated ancestry from Turan - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929717302768). But then there's a new paper on that today, so it's probably redundant to say that.

Carlos Aramayo said...

@Davidski,

ALA019 is mentioned by Johannes Krause, in the video, as being from around 4,000 years Before Present, it is almost 500 years older than the "classic" beginning of Mitanni realm! What is her haplogroup? According to Eupedia, Mitanni people had R1a-Z94 haplogroup.

Samuel Andrews said...

Yes, that would be surprising. because almost every major language family spread due to major geneflow Bantu, Turkic, Polynesian, Afro-Asiatic (for the most part), Germanic, Slavic, Spanish.

Samuel Andrews said...

Elite Mitanni may have had more Andronovo ancestry. Because, you see in India that Brahmins have more than average Indians.

Also, there can't be a direct relationship between Mitanni Aryans and Indian Aryans, because Indians lack BMAC ancestry.

Matt said...

Carlos, supplementary data puts her at "cal BCE 1613-1534". Krause is just simplifying things for lay audience I think.

Archi said...

Carlos Aramayo said...
" ALA019 is mentioned by Johannes Krause, in the video, as being from around 4,000 years Before Present. it is almost 500 years older than the "classic" beginning of Mitanni realm! "

No

32.57, Locus 247, AT 15878 ALA019 ALA019.A  petrous bone 3298  23  -19,3  1613-1534  cal BCE 1625-1511 cal BCE 34,5  2,9  8,7  petrous bone MAMS-33687  Alalakh

Davidski said...

@Carlos Aramayo

ALA019 is actually dated to 3575-3461 calBP. So that's not a problem.

And her mtDNA haplogroup is H2a3. She can't belong to Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a-Z94 because she's a female.

However, it's possible that her father or husband belonged to R1a-Z94, because this marker made its entry into Central Asia at around this time.

Davidski said...

@Samuel

How much Proto-Turkic ancestry do the Turks from Anatolia have? Would you say that they have a lot of it?

And how much Proto-Hungarian ancestry do Hungarians have?

Coldmountains said...

@Samuel Andrews

Indians have a lot of BMAC. Uniparental markers match with BMAC and using global25 models Indians need BMAC. I would be really surprised if Indo-Aryans arrived as pure steppe group in South Asia. This outliner is quite good showing that BMAC dna played a big role in early Indo-Iranian migrations southwards.

vAsiSTha said...

@carlos. dating is 3575-3461 bp. Looks uncalibrated, so could be pushed back after calibration.

Also, first appearance of indo aryan culture in near east is actually not with mitanni, but with kassites, starting around 2000-1800bce.

@archi yes. The mtDna of the woman is from corded ware. so the paternal ancestry is definitely SC asian.

Also, the 10% Sintashta_o1 ancestry you got here has 0% sintashta_mlba.
"Woman
Target: Levant_Alalakh_MLBA_o:ALA019
Distance: 0.7724% / 0.00772408
64.8 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA
14.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1
9.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1
6.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
2.2 UZB_Bustan_BA
1.8 UZB_Bustan_En
0.4 UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA"

cant seem to reduce the distance, but the indication is clear. So you are left with some 7% andronovo proper ancestry. This is similar to what i get, as only 40-60% of zevakinskiy_MLBA/LBA is sintashta_mlba.

Target: RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1
Distance: 4.1108% / 0.04110846
60.0 KAZ_Kumsay_EBA
34.4 KAZ_Dali_EBA
3.4 KGZ_Aigyrzhal_BA
2.2 TJK_Sarazm_En
0.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1
0.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.0 MNG_Chemurchek_EBA_2
0.0 MNG_East_N
0.0 RUS_Afanasievo
0.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA
0.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA_o
0.0 TKM_Gonur2_BA
0.0 TKM_Gonur3_BA
0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

vAsiSTha said...

Scratch my remark on the date. seems its 1550 cal bce, not bp.

@samuel
"because Indians lack BMAC ancestry."

you couldnt be more wrong.

Samuel Andrews said...

Sometimes langauge change is caused by big demographic change. Sometimes it isn't. But, it almost always happens alongside at least some demographic change (I don't think you dis agree with that).

From what I have studied, language change more often causes major demographic change than not. So I have good reason to be surprised how little Andronovo this Mitanni person.

Most Anatolian Turks are 25% Central Asian. Sure Hungarians have basically no proto-HUngarian ancestry. But....I can counter examples....

How much Proto-Austronesian ancestry do Filipinos have? A lot.
How much Proto-Bantu ancestry do South Africans have? A lot.
How much proto-Slavic ancestry do Serbians have? A lot.
How much Proto-Indo European ancestry do Europeans have? A lot.

How much Proto-Uralic ancestry do Finns have? Very little.

Maybe, Afro-Asiatic languages spread with little geneflow.

Archi said...


The main feature of Sappali Tepe is that he was surrounded by three rows of walls. Who were they defending themselves against? From Mitanni!

Well, women are always passed off as outsiders, there were always political marriages.

Michalis Moriopoulos said...

Many of us on AG were hoping that Mitanni would explain the ~7% steppe in Iron AGe Levantine samples (as revealed in Haber et al):

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/05/26/142448/F4.large.jpg

But this wonderful sample doesn't have enough to be a source, especially once people like her were mixed into the general population. Maybe there were far more steppe-heavy Mitanni in the mix, as well?

I'm reading all the Levantine papers now so maybe there are arguments for other potential sources.

Copper Axe said...

@Davidski

"Definitely not a game changer. It actually pushes back in time somewhat the entry of paternal steppe ancestry into the Near East, because R-V1636 is a steppe lineage."

When you said no ancestry from the North of the Caucasus, I thought you mentioned there was no EHG or steppe genetic contribution to this individual, while still having that haplogroup.

That being said

"so ART038's Y-chromosome might be the first evidence of the presence of steppe ancestry in Copper Age Anatolia."

Now that's a game changer!

Coldmountains said...

@Samuel Andrews

We not really know much about her and what happened in the Levant is not really relevant for South Asia. Mitanni were still Hurrian-speaking and the Indo-Aryan element never was dominant among them.

So she is not really relevant for what happened in South Asia. Also we already have a South Asian sample with 40% steppe from around 1000-800 BCE (Loenbar_IA_o). Her low steppe ancestry could have many reasons and basing any conclusions just on one sample is dangerous.

What she really shows is, that BMAC ancestry expanded in all directions during this age and played probably a big role in the spread of Indo-Iranian languages.

JuanRivera said...

ARM_Areni_C has some steppe ancestry lacking in the earlier AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN. AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC also seems to have some, but not as much as the Areni sample.

Samuel Andrews said...

@ColdMountains,

In models I've done for Indians they chose Sarazom_Eneolithic who had some but less Caucasus/Anatolian ancestry than BMAC did. I thought it was agreed Indians have little if any Anatolian ancestry, therefore can't have much BMAC.

Anyways, I suppose your crowd is right that the Aryans who invaded India has signifcant BMAC ancestry. However, this Mitanni person cannot be modelled as the main source of Steppe ancestry in Indians.

Indians' Steppe and BMAC comes from people had higher Steppe ratio than this Mitanni. This is for sure trye when considering modern Brahmins have more Andronovo than this Mitanni person does.

In conclusion, There were certainly Indo-Aryans with much more Steppe ancestry than her. I'm not sure if you dis agree with this.

I was leaning towards the idea basically pure Andronovo invaded India, and became watered down very quickly. This does now seem unlikely considering how little Andronovo this first Bronze age Aryan genome has.

gamerz_J said...

Did this Central Asian-type ancestry make a lasting impact in Anatolia and the Levant? Doesn't seem like it but maybe I am missing something.

I haven't read the paper yet so I might be wrong but wondering if this Caucasus-Anatolia gene flow is related to the CHG/Iranian-like component found in the Minoans and in MLBA Sicily (IIRC here) If anyone has any thoughts on these points, they'd be much appreciated.

Copper Axe said...

I always figured that Anatolian migrated from the eastern steppe. It makes sense if you look at that they don't share agricultural terms, but somehow also different word for horse But maybe they had a more or archaic term and the late PIE a newer term, not derived from the same word. Idk I am not a linguist.

There is settled agriculture in the western PC in 5th millenium b.c but not in the east to my knowledge. So if they went west they had to split off really early but going through the east allows for a slightly later migration.

This subclade being found in the North Caucasus steppe region makes the Caucasian route more likely as well, and it certainly allows for only a small amount of steppe ancestry to have reached Anatolia, before intermixing with the Anatolians themselves.

Jatt_Scythian said...

Anatolian Turks are not 25% Central Asian. That would imply they are ~13% East Eurasian and most of them are in reality 0-6% Eurasian.

Jatt_Scythian said...

@Coldmountains

Sein seems to believe the only Indians with BMAC ancestry are Kashmiris. Why do you two have such a different opinion?

gokhan_ucoklar said...

@Davidski,

Modern Anatolia was shaped by medieval Oghuz, not Proto-Turks. Turkic migration occured nearly eight centuries ago when medieval Oghuzes were nothing alike Proto-Turks. To measure the Slavic impact in Balkans, you cannot use neither medieval Scandinavians (as they were brothers of Indo-European Slavic people) nor Yamnaya samples (as they were proto-Indo-Europeans). There are only two options: use either medieval Slavic samples from burials or modern northern Slavic people such as Poles who happen to be their closest relatives. As for Anatolian Turks, they are equally close to Aegean-Anatolian Greeks and Turkmens aka modern Central Asian Oghuz people who stayed in homeland and did not immigrate to Anatolia.

Distance to: Turkish_Aydin
0.09367030 Greek_Crete
0.09394217 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.09536029 Greek_Kos
0.09676510 Greek_Izmir
0.11409894 Turkmen
0.12477682 Turkmen_Uzbekistan

Distance to: Turkish_Balikesir
0.09552901 Greek_Crete
0.09679542 Greek_Izmir
0.09841926 Greek_Kos
0.09844926 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.11151503 Turkmen
0.12175955 Turkmen_Uzbekistan

Target: Turkish_Aydin
Distance: 1.2112% / 0.01211181
44.6 Turkmen
26.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
23.0 Greek_Crete
6.4 Greek_Kos
0.0 Greek_Izmir
0.0 Turkmen_Uzbekistan

Target: Turkish_Balikesir
Distance: 1.2525% / 0.01252503
24.4 Turkmen
20.2 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
19.8 Greek_Crete
18.4 Greek_Izmir
17.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.0 Greek_Kos

vAsiSTha said...

@samuel
"Because, you see in India that Brahmins have more than average Indians."
Brahmins have lesser steppe than North and NW indians and pakistanis/afghans/kalash etc.
Brahmins have more steppe than other indians because they're originally a northern population. Brahmins pushed south of vindhya range in central India only post 1000bce. Original 'Aryavarta' land usually ends at the vindhyas.
"The Baudhayana Dharmasutra (BDS) 1.1.2.10 (perhaps compiled in the 8th to 6th centuries BCE) declares that Āryāvarta is the land that lies west of Kālakavana, east of Adarsana, south of the Himalayas and north of the Vindhyas, but in BDS 1.1.2.11 Āryāvarta is confined to the doab of the Ganges-Yamuna."

Samuel Andrews said...

@Davidski,

Indians have about as much Andronovo ancestry as this probable Mitanni person.l

SO ynless Indians are 100% Mitanni-like, which they aren't, there were Indo-Aryans with a lot more Andronovo ancestry than this Mitanni person.

That the end of your theory of Indo-Aryans simply being SC Asians who learned the language.

Romulus said...

wait so this ART038 guy is R1b1a2 and has no steppe autosomal dna?

Romulus said...

I'm actually most blown away that the abstract is a video, we live in the future!

Romulus said...

Looks like ancient central asian women really "got around".

Romulus said...

First the paper says:

ART038 carries Y-haplotype R1b-V1636 (R1b1a2)

But then in the description of the burial:

ART038 is a young female from Period VI B1/VI B2 lying on top of stone slabs closing the Royal tomb. Probably sacrificed.


Rob said...

Without having read the paper, on first impression it seems like Ikiztepe has quite a bit of Majkop ancestry

gamerz_J said...

On the topic of Central Asia and BMAC, Haber et al (2020) have a paper out about the history of the Levant in the last 4000 years.

https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(20)30155-5

There seems to be some Central/South Asian ancestry arriving in the region during the Hellenistic Age, which is a bit odd given that these populations do not show any South Asian ancestry that I know of.(not shared Iranian-related ancestry that is)

Interestingly, they use Pakistan_IA as the relevant pop in their qpGraph analysis.


Also, having now read the paper, it seems that Iran_N is a better source than CHG for Iranian-related ancestry in most Anatolians (but not all apparently?)
But, does anyone understand what they mean here?
" Other ancient populations from the Caucasus and the Western steppe also produced high affinity but f4(Mbuti, X; Turanx, ALA019) suggest that ALA019 differs from other Turan individuals by occasionally sharing more or less alleles with either Iran_N or WSHG "

Davidski said...

@All

Please note that I've changed the geographic codes on most of the samples in all of the datasheets.

The links have been updated.

Rob said...

@ Copper Axe

“ “I always figured that Anatolian migrated from the eastern steppe. It makes sense if you look at that they don't share agricultural terms, but somehow also different word for horse But maybe they had a more or archaic term and the late PIE a newer term, not derived from the same word.”

Which terms are they ?
I don’t think there’s much to support this angle

Ebizur said...

Romulus wrote,

"First the paper says:

ART038 carries Y-haplotype R1b-V1636 (R1b1a2)

But then in the description of the burial:

ART038 is a young female from Period VI B1/VI B2 lying on top of stone slabs closing the Royal tomb. Probably sacrificed."

When this sort of discrepancy arises, it usually may be ascribed to one of the following causes:

(1) contamination / misattribution of strands of DNA to the Y-chromosome (In this case, the specimen is actually female, but it has either been contaminated with authentic human Y-DNA or some other sort of DNA has been misidentified as originating in a human Y-chromosome. The reported Y-DNA haplogroup should be ignored.)

(2) erroneous forensic sex determination (In this case, the specimen is actually male, but it has an ambiguous skeletal morphology that has been misassessed as female. The reported Y-DNA haplogroup may be considered to be correct.)

Which appears to be more likely in this case?

Davidski said...

This is probably a typo, because all of the details for ART038 check out in the supp info spreadsheet, including the designation as a male.

Vladimir said...

What about ADMIXTURE in ART038? How do I understand Progress2 and Voniuchka too V1636? So maybe V1636 went not from the steppe to the Caucasus, but from the Caucasus to the steppe? Maybe he brought CHG to the steppe?

Davidski said...

@Vladimir

You don't know that Y-haplogroups aren't linked to genome-wide ancestry?

ART038 definitely has a Y-chromosome from the steppe. But obviously his steppe ancestor was too far back in time to leave any noticeable genome-wide ancestry.

It only takes ~200 years to lose all traces of genome-wide admixture.

Copper Axe said...

@Rob

"Which terms are they ?
I don’t think there’s much to support this angle"

Wagon, wheels but also axle. In regards to agriculture, ploughing is a completely different word in Anatolian and other words I cant recall atm are loanwords as well.

Also, the Ebla tablets.

CrM said...

Great papers.
I tested the Anatolian samples on G25, and what I see is a lot of Seh Gabi and PPNB Ancestry (probably connected with Uruk?), and of course loads of Kura-Araxes ancestry, which is to be expected.
No extra Steppe ancestry in Anatolia (Aside from whatever Steppe Kura-Araxes and Areni had).
The R1b in Arslantepe is obviously from KAC, speaking of which, did they sample the Royal Tomb of Arslantepe?

https://i.imgur.com/oaoCRKW.png

Now, another question is, who were the people in Arslantepe, were it Hurrians, Hittites or Hattians? They found a J haplogroup in Arslantepe which was found in Kura-Araxes Velikent, nowadays it's very widespread among Northeast Caucasians.
And the Ikiztepe? I think they can be Hattians or Kaskians.

Nezih Seven said...

Some basic models. I didn't use BMAC samples since they already seem to have steppe ancestry to some degree. I'm aware that the distance for Alalakh outlier could be lower if they were included.


Target: TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART038
Distance: 3.4415% / 0.03441458
62.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
35.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
2.6 Levant_ISR_C
0.4 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En


Target: TUR_Alalakh_MLBA_o:ALA019
Distance: 3.5916% / 0.03591600
58.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
23.8 RUS_Catacomb
8.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
4.8 MNG_Hovsgol_BA
4.6 GEO_CHG


And Anatolian Turks definitely don't have 25% Proto-Turkic ancestry. You can check the results in this article on peoples of modern Anatolia and surrounding regions: https://nezihseven.wordpress.com/2020/05/04/dna/

CrM said...

And the infamous Shulaveri Shomu is also here! ; )
As I expected, a lot of Hajji Firuz/Dalma.
I always thought that the Northeast Caucasian languages were brought by migrants from the Dalma culture.

Target: join@AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN:MTT001
Distance: 2.4902% / 0.02490202
57.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
31.2 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
8.0 GEO_CHG
2.4 Levant_PPNB
1.0 RUS_Progress_En
0.0 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
0.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG


Target: join@AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN:MTT001
Distance: 2.4902% / 0.02490202
57.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
31.2 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
8.0 GEO_CHG
2.4 Levant_PPNB
1.0 RUS_Progress_En
0.0 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
0.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG

Target: AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC
Distance: 5.6410% / 0.05641048
80.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
14.8 Levant_PPNB
5.2 RUS_Progress_En
0.0 GEO_CHG
0.0 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
0.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG
0.0 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N

Rob said...

There was obviously flow from steppe to E Anatolia via Caucasus (at least twice), but for some reason, thus particular current has an inverse relationship to the distribution of IE languages, which are focussed on the West, ad historically documented late IE expansion toeawrd the East.

@ CrM

Have you seen the data sheet. ? I wonder if the S/S is male, and if so, some form of Y-hg J2a

Davidski said...

The Shulaveri-Shomu singleton is a female, but a female belonging to mtDNA U7.

As I've argued before, U7 is conspicuous by its absence from all of the steppe populations identified as relevant to Yamnaya and Corded Ware.

It does appear in Steppe Maykop, but Steppe Maykop is irrelevant.

CrM said...

@Rob
Yes, it's disappointing that we don't know SSC Y-DNA. It seems that Hajji Firuz was J2b.

Rob said...

@ CopperAxe

“ Wagon, wheels but also axle. In regards to agriculture, ploughing is a completely different word in Anatolian and other words I cant recall atm are loanwords as well.”

Yes from what I understand that suggests Anatolian split off first ; or is ‘more divergent’ for some reason
Let’s see if more data from west-central shows anything new

vAsiSTha said...

So no steppe ancestry from the hittite region at all? Or is there 1-2% somewhere to claim steppe origin of anatolian languages?

Gökhan said...

I have not free access to paper. what are the paternal hgs ?

Davidski said...

@vAsiSTha

So no steppe ancestry from the hittite region at all? Or is there 1-2% somewhere to claim steppe origin of anatolian languages?

You're in for several major shocks later this year. That includes the Anatolian issue.

Quite frankly, I feel sorry for you. My advice is, and you should really take it while you can, please find yourself a new fixation right now!

Davidski said...

@Gökhan

Y-hgs from the Skourtanioti et al. paper...

https://edmond.mpdl.mpg.de/imeji/item/U_dHgdz2ov4vNBLd?q=&fq=&filter=&pos=6#pageTitle

And from the Agranat-Tamir et al. paper...

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20461-The-Genomic-History-of-the-Bronze-Age-Southern-Levant&p=670504&viewfull=1#post670504

vAsiSTha said...

@davidski
hahahahahaha. so not even 1-2%?

Davidski said...

@vAsiSTha

None of these samples are relevant to the most widely accepted theory about the origins of the Proto-Anatolians. But don't worry, the relevant samples are coming.

Having said that, the R1b-V1636 is interesting, because it's ultimately from the steppe, and can be used to argue for the spread of Anatolian languages via the Kura-Araxes culture. Like here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe4jnBdVxjw

vAsiSTha said...

So I can argue that PIE spread to europe via the Y hg J samples from EHG and khvalynsk etc? great

CrM said...

I included more sources in the previous model, such as Barcin_C, Levant_C and Maykop.
The Caucasian-related ancestry seems to be a mix between KAC and Maykop, I wonder if there was a coalition of KAC and Maykop people that invaded Anatolia, or is it just a variation of KAC that is pulled further to the West Caucasian cline where Maykop is.
The "Yamnaya-rich Late Maykop" samples belonged to haplogroup L and had around 10% Yamnaya ancestry, they also had rich burials.

Some info on Arslantepe:
By the late Uruk period development had grown to include a large temple/palace complex.[5]
Culturally, Melid was part of the "Northern regions of Greater Mesopotamia" functioning as a trade colony along the Euphrates River bringing raw materials to Sumer (Lower Mesopotamia).
Numerous similarities have been found between these early layers at Arslantepe, and the somewhat later site of Birecik (Birecik Dam Cemetery), also in Turkey, to the southwest of Melid.[6]
Around 3000 BCE, the transitonal EBI-EBII, there was widespread burning and destruction, after which Kura-Araxes culture pottery appeared in the area. This was a mainly pastoralist culture connected with the Caucasus mountains.[7]
The first swords known in the Early Bronze Age (c. 33rd to 31st centuries) are based on finds at Arslantepe by Marcella Frangipane of Rome University.[18][19][20] A cache of nine swords and daggers was found; they are composed of arsenic-copper alloy. Among them, three swords were beautifully inlaid with silver.
Phase VI A at Arslantepe ended in destruction—the city was burned. Later on, some new occupants also left some bronze weapons, including swords. They were found in the rich tomb of "Signori Arslantepe" or "Signor Arslantepe", as he was called by archaeologists. He was about 40 years old, and the tomb is radiocarbon dated to 3081-2897 BCE.[21]

However, they found even earlier swords in Maykop.
Recent discoveries by archaeologist Alexei Rezepkin include (in his view):
The most ancient bronze sword on record, dating from the second or third century of the 4th millennium BC. It was found in a stone tomb near Novosvobodnaya, and is now on display in the Hermitage in St. Petersburg. It has a total length of 63 cm and a hilt length of 11 cm.
https://imgur.com/a/2OnuZbm

Cpk said...

Mesolithic Chg y-hg J is a candidate for Proto Anatolians.

Archi said...

A warrior woman who was defeated by enemies and sloppyly thrown into a well? She could have been traumatized in battle or fell off a chariot.

ALA019 (Square 32.57, Locus 247, AT 15878) is an adult female aged 40-45 years old (Haas et al., 1994) found at the bottom
of a very deep well [hence, dubbed ‘‘the Well Lady’’; (Shafiq, 2020)]. The remains exhibit presence of osteoarthritis with eburnation
(OA) on the cervical vertebrae between C1 and C2 (Waldron, 2001), along with the rare presence of adventitious bursa
(Kwong et al., 2011) on lumbar 3 and 4. The individual shows evidence of healed trauma on the frontal bone of the skull (Byers,
2011) and two healed fractured ribs
(Shafiq, 2020). Enthesophytes were found on both calcaneal bones (Waldron, 2001). The
upper lateral incisors exhibit the dental morphology feature of shoveling, score 5 (Scott and Irish, 2017). Her dentition exhibited
multiple episodes of dental enamel hypoplasia, starting from 1.3 years old up to 4.6 years old, with a total of twelve childhood
growth disturbances (correlating to the ages of 1.3/1.5, 1.7/1.8, 1.9/2.0, 2.0/2.3, 2.6/2.8, 2.7/3.0, 2.8/3.1, 3.1/3.4, 3.5/3.7, 3.7/
4.2, and 4.0/4.4-4.6 years old) (Hillson, 2014). She was discovered facedown with her limbs splayed, indicating that she had
been carelessly thrown into the well while
it was still in use (probably for domestic/craft purposes or for animals). As this individual’s
deposition was the result of misadventure, rather than deliberate burial, there are no accompanying grave goods.

epoch said...

There is an old Hittite document called the Edict of Telepinu. It arranges the succession of kings. The reason for the edict was that Hittite kings basically adopted successors. Brothers in law, foggy relationships, sons of minor wives. The Hittite kingdom was multilingual, multi-ethnic. Liturgy was half in Hattic. Several names of kings and queens are considered Hattic.

Ancient DNA won't solve the origin of Hittite language as we even don't know how many people spoke the language at various points in their history.

The origin of Anatolian languages may possibly be settled in Western Anatolia. Kumtepe4 could be steppe affiliated, but is a very low resolution sample. It is from the place and time where to look, though.

Vladimir said...

Target: TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART038
Distance: 3.4415% / 0.03441458
62.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
35.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
2.6 Levant_ISR_C
0.4 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En

I can say something stupid, but objectively speaking, both R1a and R1b could not pass to Europe, whether in the final Paleolithic or Mesolithic, otherwise than through southern Siberia, in other words, through the North of Central Asia. Where there is now a desert, in those days there was a steppe, dense vegetation. Yes, the Caspian sea was cold, but people then did not need beaches. It cannot be that either both of these haplogroups or one of them did not stop there. Now, objectively speaking, there is practically no population in Central Asia that goes back more than 4,000 years. Archaeologists invariably claim that both the Elshanka culture and the culture of ringed ceramics (including the Dnipro-Donetsk culture, the Sredny don culture, and the Sredny Volga culture) have their origins somewhere in the Eastern Caspian. Other archaeologists point to the similarity of some Central Asian cultures to the Malta culture in which a person with haplogroup R was found So there is nothing surprising, let's say that somewhere in the area of the Eastern Caspian 15600 years ago, R1b-L389 broke up and R1b-P297 went to bypass the Caspian sea from the North, and R1b-V1636 from the South.

Davidski said...

@Cpk

Mesolithic Chg y-hg J is a candidate for Proto Anatolians.

Proto-Anatolian was spoken north of the Black Sea.

Not much Y-hg J there.

Archi said...


We can only say about Anatolia that each city had its own population that differed from other populations, their isolation was as it is now in the North Caucasus. In C¸amlıbel Tarlası lived the Hati, in Ikiztepe lived the Kaski, the main enemies and the Hati and Hittites.
Unfortunately, they were not even close to testing someone even indirectly related to the Hittites.(conspiracy? joke)

Rob said...

With this new data, Majkop can be thought of as ~ 70% Shuvaleri; 10% CHG; ~ 20% Progress &/or steppe Majkop; with CHG rising in Late Majkop

CrM said...

Some models for the Eneolithic and Bronze Age Caucasus utilizing the new Azeri samples.
https://imgur.com/a/NJrpyN5

Aram said...

The ART038 is much younger than Areni. 1000 year younger. So it is not surprising that he has no Steppe ancestry. R1b V1636 almost certainly entered into Near East via Caucasus at Eneolithic before KAC.
The case of PF7562 is more complicated. It could be via Caucasus with V1636. Or could be an independent migration via Balkanes.

---

As for Shulaveri. It is very interesting to see how western they are. They are more Anatolian shifted than modern Armenians.
I doubt they were pre NEC speakers. The Sion horizon that came after Shulaveri is much better candidate for pre-NEC. Sioni will be more CHG than Shilaveri.
Proto-NEC starts from KAC period.

Archi said...

@Aram
"The ART038 is much younger than Areni. 1000 year younger. So it is not surprising that he has no Steppe ancestry. R1b V1636 almost certainly entered into Near East via Caucasus at Eneolithic before KAC."

We should check its haplogroup, or it might even be a woman.

Rob said...



''In the subsequent millennia and until the Late Bronze Age, genetic continuity persisted in North-Central and Eastern Anatolia, which is supported by the genetic similarity of these later populations and the absence of new ancestry sources after the Neolithic period. ''

Hhmm not sure about this. I mean, northern Anatolia was barely populated until the L.C. How can there be 'genetic continuity across millenia'. There were population shifts in Anatlia during this region, definitely.

''For example, the site of Ikiztepe on the Turkish Black Sea Coast contains a material culture with strong Balkan affinities, and this has been argued to signify direct contact with populations across the Black Sea (e.g., Thissen, 1993), but these contacts do not seem to be accompanied by gene flow.''

Perhaps sampling more than 9 from a cemetery of > 300

Vladimir said...

Wow. I didn't notice this at first in the article. This is exactly what I said above. Z2103 has nothing to do with it, it will come to the Caucasus around 2000 BC. M2219 most likely went along the North of the Caspian sea and then through Ukraine.

"A few notable exceptions provide rather anecdotal but
nonetheless important evidence for long distance mobility and
extended Y-haplogroup diversity. For example, individual
ART038 carries Y-haplotype R1b-V1636 (R1b1a2), which is a
rare clade related to other early R1b-lineages, such as R1bV88 that was found in low frequency in Neolithic Europe (e.g.,
Haak et al., 2015) and R1b-Z2103—the main Y-lineage that is
associated with the spread of ‘‘steppe ancestry’’ across West
Eurasia during the early Bronze Age. However, R1b-V1636 and
R1b-Z2103 lineages split long before ( 17 kya) and therefore
there is no direct evidence for an early incursion from the
Pontic steppe during the main era of Arslantepe. Lineage L2-
L595 found in ALA084 (Alalakh) has previously been reported
in one individual from Chalcolithic Northern Iran (Narasimhan
et al., 2019) and in three males from the Late Maykop phase in
the North Caucasus (Wang et al., 2019). These three share
ancestry from the common Anatolian/Iranian ancestry cline
described here, which indicates a widespread distribution that
also reached the southern margins of the steppe zone north of
the Caucasus mountain range."
Genomic History of Neolithic to Bronze Age Anatolia,
Northern Levant, and Southern Caucasus

Davidski said...

M2219 most likely went along the North of the Caspian sea and then through Ukraine.

WTF are you talking about?

vAsiSTha said...

@archi said
"Unfortunately, they were not even close to testing someone even indirectly related to the Hittites."

This is what the authors write about Alalakh
"Late Bronze II, Periods 3-1, represents the last stages of Mitanni vassalhood (Period 3) and the take-over of the city by the Hittites and its incorporation into their empire (Periods 2-1) (Yener, 2013a; Yener et al., 2019). The major construction in this period were the Northern and Southern Fortresses in Period 2 (Akar, 2013, 2019), which blend characteristics of Egyptian and Hittite defensive architecture. The scale of the construction projects, the unusual building techniques, and the hints of possible Hittite administration from this period, in the form of grain distribution tablets from probable late Period 3/early Period 2 contexts (von Dassow, 2005), all suggest that Hittite Great King Suppiluliuma I took over the site, installing a vassal to rule as governor [perhaps the Tudhaliya depicted on the basalt orthostat found by Woolley in the Level Ib temple; (Woolley, 1955) and that either the king or his governor initiated the Fortresses’ construction (Yener et al., 2019). The arrival of the Hittites is also visible in the material culture of the site at this time, with the introduction of several types of North Central Anatolian (NCA) ceramics, typical of the Hittite homeland (Akar, 2017b; Horowitz,
2015, 2019), as well as Hittite seals and sealings (Woolley, 1955), and a Hittite-style shaft hole axe (Yener, 2011).
Contacts with the
Aegean world apparently increased, judging from the large quantities of Mycenaean wares found in these periods, and the Mitannian Nuzi Ware developed into a local style termed Atchana Ware which also continues to be found in great numbers (Yener et al., 2019). The Late Bronze II occupation ends ca. 1300 BCE, when the city was abandoned, except for the temple and perhaps several buildings around it, which continued in use into the mid-13th century BCE"

Vladimir said...

I1734 Ukraine Mesolithic 7446–7058 R1b1a2~V88
I4112 Ukraine Neolithic 5500–4800 R1b1a2~V88
I4114 Ukraine Neolithic 5473–5329 R1b1a2~V88*
I5891 Ukraine Neolithic 5465–5310 R1b1a2~V88
I5893 Ukraine Neolithic 5374–5226 R1b1a2~V88
I5892 Ukraine Neolithic 5301–4982 R1b1a~L754(xL389)
I5881 Ukraine Neolithic 5218–5059 R1b1a2~V88

CrM said...

Target: TUR_Alalakh_MLBA_o:ALA019
Distance: 2.6375% / 0.02637523
89.4 UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA
6.6 RUS_Tyumen_HG
3.4 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.0 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
0.0 Levant_ISR_C

Distance to: TUR_Alalakh_MLBA_o:ALA019
0.05932991 Balochi
0.06141395 Brahui
0.06746904 Makrani
0.07217000 Iranian_Bandari
0.07799324 Kalash

I don't think she is a Mitanni.
The world back when was interconnected with trade routes, and along those routes slave selling wasn't uncommon. I can give an example of a very unusual sample in Central Asia, two of those in fact, with obvious Caucasian ancestry.


Distance to: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I5608
0.03072614 Abkhasian
0.03434077 Ossetian
0.04112466 Adygei
0.04151717 Georgian_Imer
0.04803487 Ingushian

Distance to: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I4901
0.02879372 Abazin
0.03002256 Karachay
0.03189500 Balkar
0.03414419 Cherkes
0.03430348 Circassian

Compare this with Dzharkutan1,

Distance to: UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA
0.06503849 Makrani
0.06533386 Balochi
0.06719536 Brahui
0.07162892 Iranian_Bandari
0.07762302 Iranian_Mazandarani

ALA019, in my opinion, was a slave from Central Asia, and not a Mitanni.

AWood said...

@CrM

I was going to suggest something similar. Doesn't her unfortunate disposition seem to infer she was at minimum a lower class individual? Slave would be the first thing that comes to mind.

Archi said...

@vAsiSTha

There are no Hittites in there. It says it wasn't the Hittites who integrated into Alalakh, but Alalakh was part of the Hittite Empire, as it depended on Egypt. There's no indication that any of the people tested in Alalakh belong to Period 2, which has the archaeological influence of the Hittites. This period began after 1300BC, when King Muvatalli fightes with Egypt and King Hattusilis III defeated Mitanni. There are no samples from that period, in any case, Alalakh was never Hittite peaple.

Davidski said...

@CrM

Of course, we'll never know if she was a Mitanni or not.

However, the generally accepted idea that the Indo-Aryans moved from near the Urals to Central Asia, and then eventually spread from Central Asia into South Asia and the Near East is nicely corroborated by this individual's rather peculiar ancestry.

So in my mind she's a very good candidate for a Mitanni, but I won't be losing any sleep over it.

Archi said...

CrM said...
"ALA019, in my opinion, was a slave from Central Asia, and not a Mitanni."

That's a very strange and unfounded opinion. Do you have any idea the enormous distance between Central Asia and the Mediterranean coast? Who would carry some crippled slave across half the world? And how could that happen?
And how could it have gotten to Central Asia? Because her mitohaplogroup is European, belongs to Corded Ware, not Central Asia. There's no sign of it being a slave.

vAsiSTha said...

Crm said
Target: TUR_Alalakh_MLBA_o:ALA019
Distance: 2.6375% / 0.02637523
89.4 UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA
6.6 RUS_Tyumen_HG
3.4 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.0 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
0.0 Levant_ISR_C

Whether this woman is a mitanni or not, she was a victim of abuse quite apparently. However, she definitely is related to the flow of domesticated animals and material from A and SC Asia to Syria in the 2nd mil BCE.

Her mtDna is from the steppe, and paternal ancestry is very likely SC asian. (Add this to the piling evidence of female mediated steppe ancestry found in SC asian region)

Also it is very clear that her steppe ancestry is not from andronovo proper but from the eastern steppe mixed with a ton of ANE and probably some east asian. This again corresponds to flow of steppe ancestry from iamc in LBA, and not MLBA.

CrM said...

@Archi

How did those two Caucasians end up in Uzbekistan?

Davidski said...

Aren't they dated to the likely post-Maykop collapse period? If so, take your pick.

Archi said...

CrM said...
@Archi
How did those two Caucasians end up in Uzbekistan?

You wrote an incomprehensible sentence.

CrM said...

@Archi, Davidski

https://i.imgur.com/8RW1JNI.png
That's well after Maykop collapse period.

My point was that, how did two females, with obvious Caucasian ancestry, end up in 1950BC Uzbekistan, if it wasn't slave trade?
And if there was a slave trade, why can't ALA019 be a part of this?

Target: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I5608
Distance: 2.5671% / 0.02567093
58.0 GEO_CHG
21.2 TUR_Barcin_N
11.6 RUS_Progress_En
8.6 Levant_PPNB
0.6 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.0 IRN_Wezmeh_N
0.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG
0.0 UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA

Target: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I4901
Distance: 2.9566% / 0.02956614
34.4 GEO_CHG
19.6 RUS_Progress_En
18.4 TUR_Barcin_N
12.0 Levant_PPNB
8.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
7.2 UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA
0.0 IRN_Wezmeh_N
0.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG

Cpk said...

Hopefully what you've seen is numerous r1a-b with lots of steppe admix from pre 2500 bc Anatolia. If they really found this it's over.

Archi said...

"CrM
Target: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I4901
Distance: 2.7742% / 0.02774203
58.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
29.2 GEO_CHG
9.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
3.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C

Target: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I5608
Distance: 1.9171% / 0.01917063
48.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
49.6 GEO_CHG
2.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

There's no need to fantasize that it's some kind of slave.

CrM said...

@Archi
Took you a while to make a nonsense model.
You conveniently left out any other sources of non CHG ancestry in the sample, like Tepecik.
Show me any other samples in Central Asia with as much CHG ancestry.

Target: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I5608
Distance: 2.3082% / 0.02308210
55.2 GEO_CHG
33.6 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
9.0 RUS_Progress_En
1.6 RUS_Tyumen_HG
0.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.2 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP
0.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
0.0 IRN_Wezmeh_N
0.0 Levant_PPNB
0.0 TUR_Barcin_N
0.0 UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA

Target: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I4901
Distance: 2.9528% / 0.02952767
33.2 GEO_CHG
20.4 RUS_Progress_En
17.2 TUR_Barcin_N
11.0 Levant_PPNB
8.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
5.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
4.4 UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA
0.0 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP
0.0 IRN_Wezmeh_N
0.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG
0.0 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N


Distance to: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I5608
0.03072614 Abkhasian
0.03434077 Ossetian
0.04112466 Adygei
0.04151717 Georgian_Imer
0.04803487 Ingushian

Distance to: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I4901
0.02879372 Abazin
0.03002256 Karachay
0.03189500 Balkar
0.03414419 Cherkes
0.03430348 Circassian

Target: Abkhasian
Distance: 1.7930% / 0.01792995
80.4 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
17.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
1.8 Mongolian

All scaled, by the way.

Archi said...

CrM said...
"Took you a while to make a nonsense model."

I didn't need any time to make a model, you have a nonsense model, I brought the first model with an Iranian source from Chalkolithic/Neolithic/BA. There's no need to fantasize that it's some slaves, it's just normal marriage and migration. In any case, Haji Firruz is just at the Caucasus and twice as close to Uzbekistan as Uzbekistan is to the Mediterranean Sea.

The Well Woman has many broken bones, which says that she either was a warrior or rode a chariot unsuccessfully, but not a slave in any way.


Archi said...


To trail slaves across the Zagros mountains and deserts from Central Asia to the Levant is such a ridiculous assumption that there are no words, no one has ever invented meaningless action.

CrM said...

@Archi
Enough with this delirium.
Hajji Firuz is from 6k BC! There was a massive turnover in the region ever since!
Answer my question, why is there so much CHG ancestry even in your Dzharkutan model?
Why is it so different from other samples, be it from Central Asia or Iran?
Were there unadmixed CHG running around in Iran or Central Asia, that mixed with Chalcolithic Iranians to produce Dzharkutan2? Your model is nonsense, not mine.

Distance to: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
0.02426592 Adygei
0.03295982 Abazin
0.03446022 Abkhasian
0.03468881 Chechen
0.05652868 Georgian_Imer
0.05698578 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
0.07726998 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
0.07796877 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o
0.07946645 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
0.08280730 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
0.09395953 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
0.09775702 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
0.10098680 TKM_Gonur3_BA
0.10754489 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
0.11703293 UZB_Sappali_Tepe2_BA
0.12260991 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA
0.12717087 UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA
0.12719704 TKM_Gonur1_BA
0.12864965 TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o
0.13117545 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
0.13548404 TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En
0.14392816 TKM_Parkhai_EBA
0.14472309 TKM_Geoksyur_En
0.14634196 TKM_Geoksyur_N
0.15404225 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1
0.15662522 TKM_Parkhai_En
0.17495901 TKM_Gonur1_BA_o
0.17971980 IRN_HotuIIIb_Meso
0.18006696 IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN
0.18898682 IRN_Belt_Cave_Meso_low_res
0.19844928 IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N
0.19961650 IRN_Wezmeh_N
0.20112653 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.21384682 TKM_Gonur2_BA
0.25696862 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: Adygei
Distance: 1.3868% / 0.01386822
55.4 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
20.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
12.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.8 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
4.4 MNG_Mongol
2.2 RUS_Maykop_Late
0.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
0.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
0.0 Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent
0.0 RUS_Maykop
0.0 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya

Target: Abkhasian
Distance: 1.4967% / 0.01496704
50.2 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
14.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
14.2 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
11.0 RUS_Maykop_Late
7.6 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
2.6 MNG_Mongol
0.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
0.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
0.0 Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent
0.0 RUS_Maykop
0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Archi said...

@CrM
Enough with this delirium. Your model is nonsense, not mine.
I already wrote you, Hajji Firuz is near the Caucasus. CHG could spread far south of the Caspian Sea. We know for sure that migration from Northern Iran to BMAC was, so your assumptions are not serious and are not grounded in anything.

Archi said...

Distance to: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I4901
0.03994208 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4349
0.04539031 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4241
0.04808555 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1670
0.04911120 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351
0.05481022 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1661
0.05533128 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323
0.05773110 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1674
0.05954057 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1665
0.06108543 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1662
0.06131085 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1:I11476
0.06253863 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C:I2923
0.06559017 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C:I2924
0.06611777 TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o:DA383
0.06623858 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C:I2514
0.06705244 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C:I2513
0.06820455 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C:I2922
0.06828675 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C:I2925
0.06947575 TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En:DA380
0.06961415 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C:I2928
0.06964345 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1:I11474
0.07027916 TKM_Parkhai_En:I4259
0.07053269 TKM_Parkhai_En:I6669
0.07089055 TKM_Tepe_Anau_En:I4086
0.07115757 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C:I2337
0.07234521 TKM_Parkhai_EBA:I6671

Distance to: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I5608
0.05201855 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4349
0.05486565 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1670
0.05504098 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351
0.05524871 GEO_CHG:KK1
0.06304562 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323
0.06311719 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4241
0.06519785 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1661
0.06760954 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1662
0.06797191 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1674
0.06836256 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C:I2923
0.06858119 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1665
0.07264792 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C:I2337
0.07290576 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C:I2514
0.07322438 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C:I2924
0.07348129 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1:I11476
0.07444683 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C:I2928
0.07488257 TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En:DA380
0.07669687 TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En:DA381
0.07705323 TKM_Parkhai_En:I6669
0.07768005 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C:I2513
0.07843201 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C:I2922
0.07865838 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C:I2925
0.07873081 TKM_Parkhai_En:I4259
0.07884840 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1:I11474
0.07909444 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1:I11462

vAsiSTha said...

Merged the eigenstrat file and ran qpAdm on the well woman. almost no sintashta, sorry.

left pops:
Alalakh_MLBA_outlier

Uzbekistan_BA_Dzharkutan1: 83 +- 4.5
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta: 3.3 +- 3.1
Kyrgyzstan_BA_Aygirdjal: 13.7 +- 4.9
pvalue: 0.4488

Nested Model
Uzbekistan_BA_Dzharkutan1: 84
Kyrgyzstan_BA_Aygirdjal: 16
p-value: 0.4356 (no pvalue change without sintashta)

Nested model 2
Uzbekistan_BA_Dzharkutan1: 93.1
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta: 6.9
pvalue: 0.0685 (big pvalue drop)

Results https://pastebin.com/K4b8Sj60

BMAC works as well as SiS_BA1. So the woman is as likely an eastern iranian as from bmac.


CrM said...

@Archi
Great, and Hajji Firuz is from 6k BC, CHG is from 8k BC, and Dzharkutan2 is from 2k BC. And, once again, there are no other samples like Dzharkutan2 in Central Asia or Iran.

I tried replicating your model, I assume you're using unscaled?

Target: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I5608
Distance: 2.2412% / 0.02241205
50.0 GEO_CHG
50.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
0.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
0.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I4901
Distance: 3.1495% / 0.03149503
64.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
29.4 GEO_CHG
5.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C

Now lets add a Steppe source, an East Asian source (for some reason one of them has it in 1950BC), an AASI source, an Anatolian source and a local Central Asian source.

Target: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I5608
Distance: 1.2577% / 0.01257678
55.2 GEO_CHG
32.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
10.2 RUS_Progress_En
2.2 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP
0.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
0.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
0.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.0 UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA

Target: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I4901
Distance: 2.1377% / 0.02137740
28.2 GEO_CHG
23.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
21.2 RUS_Progress_En
14.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
9.2 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
4.0 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP
0.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
0.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.0 UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA

See how much better the fit is, and how there's not much Hajji Firuz left?

Hajji Firuz made a contribution to the Caucasus as it seems, hence why there's an affinity to it. Dzharkutan however, is fundamentally, Caucasian. You are just grasping at straws.

CrM said...

@Archi

Now watch this.
https://i.imgur.com/JGYG2K2.png

Archi said...

@CrM

Your assumptions about the genetics of Dzharkutan2, do not support any of your theses about slaves. Absolutely not. And about modern similarity, do not forget that Maikop culture came from the South, and modern North Caucasians are heirs of Maikop.
But this does not confirm fantastic assumptions about slaves, they are just migrations of population groups from the South Trans-Caspian and marriage relations.

Target: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I4901
Distance: 1.7864% / 0.01786376
84.4 RUS_Maykop_Late
6.0 GEO_CHG
5.4 Levant_PPNC
4.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I5608
Distance: 1.2516% / 0.01251593
48.8 RUS_Maykop_Late
25.2 GEO_CHG
20.6 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
5.2 Levant_PPNB
0.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Distance to: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I4901
0.01955633 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5004
0.02364572 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5001
0.02627033 RUS_Maykop_Late:SIJ002
0.02780593 RUS_Maykop_Late:SIJ001
0.02924021 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan:I1635
0.02949932 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin:I1658
0.03018493 Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent:VEK007-009
0.03106702 RUS_Maykop_Late:SIJ003
0.03144233 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps:ARM002-003
0.03171277 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya:I6272
0.03317484 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan:I1633
0.03480761 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya:I6266
0.03497084 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya:I6268
0.03788060 RUS_Maykop:OSS001
0.03887480 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya:I6267
0.03994208 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4349
0.04159868 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps:ARM001
0.04539031 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4241
0.04808555 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1670
0.04911120 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351
0.05481022 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1661
0.05533128 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323
0.05773110 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1674
0.05954057 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1665
0.06108543 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1662

Distance to: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I5608
0.02128615 RUS_Maykop_Late:SIJ003
0.02162383 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya:I6266
0.02210656 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya:I6268
0.02465056 RUS_Maykop_Late:SIJ001
0.02884510 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya:I6272
0.03089353 RUS_Maykop_Late:SIJ002
0.03142563 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya:I6267
0.03188291 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps:ARM002-003
0.03351462 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5004
0.03424442 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5001
0.03583085 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan:I1635
0.03669782 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps:ARM001
0.03762034 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan:I1633
0.03974255 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin:I1658
0.04021256 Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent:VEK007-009
0.04627937 RUS_Maykop:OSS001
0.05201855 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4349
0.05486565 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1670
0.05504098 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351
0.05524871 GEO_CHG:KK1
0.06304562 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323
0.06311719 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4241
0.06519785 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1661
0.06760954 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1662
0.06797191 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1674

Davidski said...

@vAsiSTha

Hey dumbo...

TUR_Alalakh_MLBA_outlier
RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1 0.210±0.045
UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA 0.790±0.045
chisq 4.271
tail prob 0.892708

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OjvNGw-6JUeXM-zzJMl9Ipm36U8tSFCL/view?usp=sharing

vAsiSTha said...

Another model

left pops:
Alalakh_MLBA_outlier

Uzbekistan_BA_Dzharkutan1: 88.2 +- 3
Kazakhstan_LBA_Zevakinskiy: 11.8 +- 3
pvalue: 0.786

https://pastebin.com/icQqCuJq

Again validates the 3 main results from Narasimhan data
1. ancestry is from eastern steppe/iamc, not andronovo directly
2. female mediated
3. LBA type ancestry

CrM said...

@Archi

I'm glad you're trying to be more reasonable now.
Whenever they were slaves or not, I cannot be 100% certain of it.
Maykop coming from the South is irrelevant to this, Maykop has been dead for 1000 years by the time of Dzharkutan2. One of these samples, specifically I5608, is likely not of Maykop origin, due to her nonexistent Iran_N ancestry, it is like a representative of the Dolmen culture.
I'm not aware of any migrations from the Caucasus to Central Asia at 2k BC.
Marriage relations are possible, but for what end, considering the distance between Uzbekistan and the Caucasus.
The most likely scenario is, imo, that there was a trade caravan that entered the Caucasus from beyond, and someone haggled these women in exchange for something. They then ended up in Uzbekistan.
I think ALA019 has a similar story.

Archi said...

@vAsiSTha
"Kazakhstan_LBA_Zevakinskiy ancestry is from eastern steppe/iamc, not andronovo directly"

You're using Zevakinsky samples that come from Andronovo. They are not formally Andronovo because they are after Andronovo and already belong to the Early Iron Age. Naturally, to take a later source for the model target and on this basis claim that it is not Andronovo is nonsense.

Davidski said...

@CrM

When Maykop collapsed, or perhaps faded out, a lot of people from the Caucasus and surrounds who were dependent on it must have dispersed to look for new opportunities.

And this process may have continued for a long time until it became the norm, because there was nothing like Maykop in the North Caucasus after it vanished.

CrM said...

@Davidski

The samples are from 1950BC. Maykop collapsed at the end of 4k BC.
I5608 is likely not even related to Maykop, because as I said, it lacks Iran_N ancestry, just like modern Northwest Caucasians, it's likely a descendant of the Dolmen culture, not Maykop. If they were away from their homeland for 1k years, then they would have bred themselves out of existence, these specimen, however are fundamentally Caucasian.

vAsiSTha said...

@davidski

that is laughable modeling. using 2 outliers from a well sampled culture as source rather than main samples?

in any case, sintashta_o1 has minimal ancestry from sintashta_mlba main cluster, if any. The overall sintashta_mlba ancestry in the well woman does not cross 7%.

Target: RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1
Distance: 4.1108% / 0.04110846
60.0 KAZ_Kumsay_EBA
34.4 KAZ_Dali_EBA
3.4 KGZ_Aigyrzhal_BA
2.2 TJK_Sarazm_En
0.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1
0.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.0 MNG_Chemurchek_EBA_2
0.0 MNG_East_N
0.0 RUS_Afanasievo
0.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA
0.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA_o
0.0 TKM_Gonur2_BA
0.0 TKM_Gonur3_BA
0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Davidski said...

@vAsiSTha

RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1 represents the fusion between different populations around the Urals and beyond during the expansions of the early Indo-Iranians/Indo-Aryans.

So it's the perfect mixture source in a simple two way model like this.

Archi said...

@CrM
"I'm glad you're trying to be more reasonable now.
Marriage relations are possible, but for what end, considering the distance between Uzbekistan and the Caucasus.

I think ALA019 has a similar story. "

I am always reasonable, but you write your unreasonable assumptions as always without any reason.
Marriage is possible at very long distances as a confirmation of allied and trade relations. The distance between the South Caspian Sea and Uzbekistan is quite small.

It's ridiculous, an old 45-year-old slave who broke her bones many times in her life and was treated for an unknown reason, which is already delusional, and even dragged across the half of the world through the mountains (i.e. Zagros!) and deserts, no one has ever seen more funny action. Why and for which purpose?

vAsiSTha said...

@archi
I said LBA 'type' ancestry. Zevakinskiy lba is similar to zevakinskiy mlba, so such ancestry starts early around 1700bce in eastern steppe/altai/iamc. Zevakinskiy BA is the oldest and is exactly like sintashta_mlba. So in that time transect from BA to LBA, you see increasing wshg/east asian in the eastern steppe likely from pops like Dali_eba/aigyrzhal and/or okunevo.
The ancestry required for this 'well woman' is towards the LBA, not the BA

CrM said...

@Archi

BMAC was part of grand extensive trade routes, and along those routes, slaves would have also been sold/traded.

Archi said...

How could she even go all this way? Because she could hardly walk! No, she probably just drove chariots.

"The remains exhibit presence of osteoarthritis with eburnation (OA) on the cervical vertebrae between C1 and C2 (Waldron, 2001), along with the rare presence of adventitious bursa (Kwong et al., 2011) on lumbar 3 and 4. The individual shows evidence of healed trauma on the frontal bone of the skull (Byers,2011) and two healed fractured ribs (Shafiq, 2020). Enthesophytes were found on both calcaneal bones (Waldron, 2001)."

Jatt_Scythian said...

How much AASI, ENA/East Asian and ANE is there in Iran_N and other ancient Iran populatons? And was this mostly male or female mediated?

JuanRivera said...

Some Anatolian samples seem to have a little Steppe (even when accounting for Maykop, ARM_Areni_C, and AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC). Namely, these are TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI002, TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI016, TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI017, TUR_Arslantepe_EBA:ART009, TUR_Arslantepe_EBA:ART010, TUR_Titris_Hoyuk_EBA:TIT021, and TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT014. TUR_Arslantepe_EBA:ART009 is atypical in that its Steppe ancestry resembles RUS_Steppe_Maykop_o. TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI002 is the one with the most Steppe ancestry, which seems to be closest to Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia. If they really have Steppe ancestry, then it would fit nicely with the V1636.

Simon_W said...

@Davidski

Am I mistaken or are the samples of the French study already online and just the link given in the paper not working?

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB38152

Jatt_Scythian said...

@Nezih Seven

How much proto-Turkic and Central Asian Turkic ancestry do Anatolian Turks have?

Also I thought Hajii Furuz was R1b not J2b.

Leron said...

Imaginations are running wild so let me add a bit of historical context.

Some time after 1800 BC tribes coming out of the Zagros were raiding in Assyrian territory and other parts of north Mesopotamia, even Hammurabi had to deal with them. They were newcomers to the Zagros because they were never mentioned previously unlike the Guti and Lullubi tribesmen of the mountains.

The Mesopotamians called this newly introduced group Turukku. Based on their names they are considered to be a Hurrian related people, some had Indo-Aryan names as well. Their homeland is thought to be near Lake Urmia; also where the Iron Age kingdom of Mannae existed. Known as Matiene by the Greeks and later called Media Atropatene.

Turukkians made incursions that reached as far west as the frontier of the kingdom of Yamhad, which included Alalakh. They were rarely mentioned besides their military conflict against the Amorite kingdoms and ever since no longer seriously referenced in historical records. However, based on their migrations they seem to have been integrated into the Hurrian population. After these events and the weakening of Semitic power in northern Mesopotamia and the Zagros borderlands, the Mitanni kingdom begins to emerge.

The Alalakh outlier was most likely part of this Turukku group from northwest Iran. There was no such thing as a Mitannian ethnic group, as they simply considered themselves Hurrians. However, the Turukku themselves were probably an extension of BMAC people, already influenced by Indo-Aryans elites, merging with Hurrians that dominated certain parts of Iran. This would put the thin Indo-Aryan layer in Mitanni as prestige cultural element, similar to how Hurrians treated Summerian religion and Akkadian culture. Rather than an outright Indo-Aryan ethnic elite within Mitanni.

Rob said...

Given that the fractures had healed means someone had cared for her; and she was worth caring for to someone

Archi said...

@Archi
"BMAC was part of grand extensive trade routes, and along those routes, slaves would have also been sold/traded."

Do you understand that the concept of slave does not exist outside the Kingdom? The concept of free and slave is only a concept of the state system, these categories are given only by the state and protected by military force. There was no interstate slave trade, as soon as a slave crossed the borders of the state he immediately became free, moreover he could shout that his former master was his slave and then the master himself became a slave, because people of the neighbouring state were usually enemies of the neighbouring state. There was no way to prove who was a slave and who was free. Therefore, in the ancient world, no international trade in slaves was impossible, there was no transportation of slaves on foreign territory was absolutely impossible. The Roman Empire traded slaves only within the Roman Empire, which had to be guarded by a huge army. And here we had to go through hundreds of different tribes, and escape the slave was easier. That's why your fantasies about travelling slaves are so funny, you just don't know the history.


Archi said...


ALA030 she Anatolian with Yamnaya influence, we can see the traces of Starchevo and Yamnaya Bulgaria, all this distinguishes her from all the other Alalakhs. She has an European mitohaplogroup H5a1j. She died in battle, in this she looks like the Well Lady.

"ALA030 (Square 45.44, Locus 105, AT 10669) is an adult female, aged 30-35 years old (Haas et al., 1994), who seems to have
been killed during the destruction of the building next to the fortification wall in Area 3. The remains indicate a rather small-sized
female, with a collapsed vertebra body of L1 (Waldron, 2001) on the left side of the vertebral body, a possible case of carrying
heavy weights, along with bone growth on lower thoracic T11 and T12. The left shoulder exhibit a condition of osteochondritis
dissecanus, a joint pathology (Waldron, 2001). Both humeri exhibit the non-metric trait of Septal Aperture (Barnes, 2012). The
upper incisors show the dental morphology feature of shoveling (Scott and Irish, 2017). Evidence of six health disturbances
during the growth period are visible as dental enamel hypoplasia at the ages of 1.3/1.5, 1.7/2.0, 1.9/2.1, 2.6/2.8, 2.8/3.1,
and 3.2/3.3 years (Hillson, 2014). Found in a burnt room context, she was discovered on her back with her arms pulled up
to her chin and her legs disappearing into the west baulk. Because this individual met with her death, and was subsequently
buried, by misadventure, there were no grave goods. Dating of human bone: 1612-1457 BCE (3256 ± 25 BP, MAMS-33695)."

Target: Levant_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA030
Distance: 1.6210% / 0.01621026
33.6 Levant_PPNB
31.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
25.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
7.0 Yamnaya_BGR
2.8 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C

Distance to: Levant_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA030
0.03186613 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4241
0.03759229 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4349
0.03985298 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351
0.04027977 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin:I1658
0.04163652 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323
0.04605128 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan:I1635
0.04731226 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps:ARM002-003
0.04753651 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5004
0.04785238 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1665
0.04895232 RUS_Maykop:OSS001
0.05000630 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5001
0.05056481 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan:I1633
0.05155589 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA:I4901
0.05199625 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1670
0.05285631 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1674
0.05294459 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya:I6272
0.05336534 RUS_Maykop_Late:SIJ001
0.05348757 HUN_Protoboleraz_LCA:I2788
0.05392810 RUS_Maykop_Late:SIJ002
0.05496326 Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent:VEK007-009
0.05643394 RUS_Maykop_Late:SIJ003
0.05646016 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1661
0.05654361 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya:I6267
0.05696051 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps:ARM001
0.05823367 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1662
0.05993914 Yamnaya_BGR:Bul4

Target: Levant_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA030
Distance: 1.0281% / 0.01028097
21.0 Levant_PPNB
19.2 HUN_Starcevo_N
18.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
18.6 RUS_Maykop_Late
9.2 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
7.2 BGR_Late_C
3.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
1.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
0.6 BGR_MP_N

Target: Levant_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA030
Distance: 0.4569% / 0.00456899
48.0 Anatolia_Arslantepe_LC
12.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
10.6 Anatolia_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC
10.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
6.4 Levant_PPNB
5.2 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
4.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.6 Levant_Natufian
0.8 Anatolia_Arslantepe_EBA

vAsiSTha said...

@leron

"However, the Turukku themselves were probably an extension of BMAC people, already influenced by Indo-Aryans elites, merging with Hurrians that dominated certain parts of Iran. This would put the thin Indo-Aryan layer in Mitanni as prestige cultural element, similar to how Hurrians treated Summerian religion and Akkadian culture. Rather than an outright Indo-Aryan ethnic elite within Mitanni."

Thanks, i agree. The presence of domesticated elephants in the SC asian region and chariots etc would have lent dominance to the indo aryans, with other cultures wishing to emulate them, trade with them. Similar to the dominance US has had culturally, except in the bronze age there would have to be some genetic contact as well.

Another thing people do not understand is that the indo aryan priests most likely would have initiated the mitannis as warriors, worshipping the IA gods, without the need for much genetic exchange. Similar to how brahmins spread the religion to SE asia by initiating the elites/kings there, after the traders established prosperous trade networks. This exact method was used to hinduize SE asia.

Archi said...

@archi
"I said LBA 'type' ancestry. Zevakinskiy lba is similar to zevakinskiy mlba, so such ancestry starts early around 1700bce in eastern steppe/altai/iamc. Zevakinskiy BA is the oldest and is exactly like sintashta_mlba. So in that time transect from BA to LBA, you see increasing wshg/east asian in the eastern steppe likely from pops like Dali_eba/aigyrzhal and/or okunevo.
The ancestry required for this 'well woman' is towards the LBA, not the BA"

It's all just a game of words and spin non-alternative models. They don't prove anything.

Distance to: Levant_Alalakh_MLBA_o:ALA019
0.04773416 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o:I1917
0.05689473 KAZ_Zevakinskiy_LBA:I3976
0.06007770 Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus:SA6010
0.06261725 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I1061
0.06262819 KAZ_Zevakinskiy_MLBA:I3763
0.06302864 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I1022
0.06315394 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I0987
0.06346464 KAZ_Zevakinskiy_LBA:I4267
0.06365862 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0357
0.06372998 Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus:RK1007
0.06391674 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA:I10140
0.06405521 KAZ_Zevakinskiy_LBA:I3977
0.06430280 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0231
0.06452496 KAZ_Alpamsa_MLBA_Alakul:I6823
0.06482021 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I1053
0.06486324 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA:I4773
0.06493859 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I0989
0.06503207 Yamnaya_UKR:MJ06
0.06579316 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I1089
0.06604044 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I1086
0.06687182 Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus:RK1001
0.06690837 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I1065
0.06718460 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I1063
0.06751526 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I1011
0.06755228 KAZ_Zevakinskiy_BA:I3770

And these designations are completely wrong. In archaeology, it is accepted that Sintasta and Potapovka belong to the brief transitional Middle-to-Late BA era (MLBA), but longtime Andronovo belongs to LBA, it is a typical Late Bronze Age culture, a model. Zevakinskiy burials belong to EIA, they have the same age and characteristic as the burials in Swat Volley, they are also called Final Bronze Age.

Romulus said...

You have to be hopelessly delusional to think this woman dumped in a well is anything beyond just a slave or whore.

"mitanni warrior woman" - moronic

But I suppose that is all to latch onto here considering everything else is just the researchers proof there was no steppe migration into BA Anatolia.

Here is a pic of her
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/78/9b/3a/789b3ab748b273b19b291bdc89fc9f7e.jpg

Kouros said...

Tres Bien David, great post!

@Archi, Zevakinsky BA is not exactly Sintashta at all it has similar WSHG like input, he is much older than Sintashta as well.


Target: KAZ_Zevakinskiy_BA:I3770
Distance: 1.9304% / 0.01930381
36.6 UKR_Sredny_Stog_II_En
35.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
23.2 MNG_Chemurchek_EBA_2
4.4 POL_Globular_Amphora

Davidski said...

@Kouros

KAZ_Zevakinskiy_BA is dated to 2132-1940 calBCE, so basically the same age as Sintashta.

This sample is obviously derived from an early Sintashta/Andronovo push to the east.

TR said...

More dna from mesolithic western europe

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/22/eaaz5344

So is this what Gaska was making a fuss about? R and J in mesolithic southern France (Iboussieres25-1 and Iboussieres31-2)? That O1b1a1a1b(Chaudardes1_d_published)in France around 62000BC seems weirder

Btw for all I2a2a1b, there is a guy (TGM009) from the Funnelbeaker culture in Saxony - Anhalt that is 3/4s WHG who carries it. He has a mix of HG ancestry
"However, when we add Sweden_Motala_HG to the outgroups, we find the best support for a four-way mixture model (P = 0.087) of 21.7 ± 2.4% Anatolia_Neolithic, 24.4 ± 6.2% Luxembourg_Loschbour, 12.6 ± 4.4% Sweden_PWC, and 41.3 ± 7.3% Hungary_KO1."

Rob said...

That’s a pretty solid study. Pays attention to the fact that farmer -colonists and resident HGs did not live in the same place (where some earlier studies claimed “population replacement)
These last 2 studies from WE have shown that western epicardial groups are differentiated by the character of their HG -admixture

Iboussiers are R1b and I2a1
Chaudardes is I. Going on everything else from France; probably I2a1

Huck Finn said...

Re this comment of Romulus: "You have to be hopelessly delusional to think this woman dumped in a well is anything beyond just a slave or whore." Whether or not the woman was really dumped" in a well, there are real well burials such as Levänluhta burials in Finland.

Kadphises said...

There are some agricultural tribes in India as jatts and rors having way higher steppe than any brahmin of India

Kadphises said...

Punjabi biradri ppl, kamboj, jatts etc have significant BMAC as well

Anonymous said...

Not surprised there are r1b samples all across the near east in the late bronze age and all and of them have very few steppe ancestry.

I think all of those samples are derived from the hittite expansionism , in 1600bc is the moment babilon is destroyed by hittites , so is natural that r1b and low steppe ancestry appear in the region at that time


CrM said...

These Megiddo outliers are better candidates for Mitanni than LA019.
https://i.imgur.com/YD62p9h.png

epoch said...

@Huck Finn

In an excavation of a Roman fortress from the Netherlands, Velsen, a Roman Soldier, with his dagger, was found in a well, with a number of stones above the body. His head was massively injured.

Samuel Andrews said...

@Rob, It is big discovery, to see 30-40% hunter gatherer admix in early farmers in Southeast France. It can explain the higher levels of hunter gatherer in early Iberian and Iberian-like Italian farmers.

But, higher hunter gatherer admix is not the only thing which makes Western farmers different from eastern farmers. Western farmers derive from a different Anatolian population.

We've gone over this many times I know. In the next few days, I'll show you mtDNA proof this is the case.

Huck Finn said...

@ epoch: of course well as such is not a proof of anything, but for instance the above mentioned well burials of Levänluhta are apparently related to a cult. Because of related artifacts these people for sure have not been just "dumped" in a well.

Rob said...

@ Sam

I get the difference in mtDNAs. Like you, I think uniparentals are important clues. But they still need to be incporporated along with other evidence.
The recent studies have outlined how Western Farmers formed. Have a read

Samuel Andrews said...

I will read it, thank you very much.

Nezih Seven said...

@Jatt_Scythian you can check the link I gave above. Here it is again: https://nezihseven.wordpress.com/2020/05/04/dna/

The article is in Turkish but the images of the results are in English. Think of Hovsgol_BA as Proto-Turkic marker.

vAsiSTha said...

checked the sintashta_o1 model with same right pops used for zevakinskiy and the other.

left pops:
Alalakh_MLBA_outlier

Uzbekistan_BA_Dzharkutan1: 89.3 +- 3.1
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_o1: 10.7 +- 3.1 (half of what davidski gets)
pvalue: 0.37 (much lower than zevakinskiy_lba's 0.78)
https://pastebin.com/PGut6t44

at the end of the day, andronovo ancestry in this is miniscule.

reg Zevakinskiy_BA. This is typical central_steppe_mlba sample, dated to 2000bce. Closest to Oy_Dzhaylau. has around 85% sintashta_mlba ancestry.

Next you see Zevakinskiy_mlba dated to 1550bce, same as this woman, with more botai+east asian than the BA sample. The other LBA samples are very close to the MLBA sample, slightly more botai+eastasian shifted.

The last LBA sample I3772 dated to 1000bce is highly east asian + botai shifted with 25-30% Mng_north east asian ancestry and similar botai like ancestry.

The changing ancestry in this BA-LBA time transect can be seen here
https://imgur.com/BxLNmq0



Archi said...

@vAsiSTha @Davidsky

Once again, in order not to confuse people, the common notation in archaeology is as follows:

Zevakinskiy_MLBA as Sintashta_MLBA instead of Zevakinskiy_BA

Zevakinskiy_LBA as Andronovo_LBA, Alakul_LBA (i.e. KAZ_Alpamsa_LBA_Alakul, etc.), Fedorovo_LBA (i.e. KAZ_Aktogai_LBA, etc.) instead of Zevakinskiy_MLBA

The Andronovo culture is the Late Bronze age.

Zevakinskiy_EIA as Swat_Valley_EIA (i.e. PAK_Aligrama_EIA, not IA)(may be FBA) instead of Zevakinskiy_LBA

Archi said...

It should be well understood that even Sintashta is already a Late Bronze Age by archaeological signs, it is noted as a transitional period from the Middle Bronze Age to the Late Bronze Age conditionally, as it is the first culture in the steppe that belonged to the Late Bronze Age. The Andronovo sites cannot be referred to as a short transition period (as MLBA) at all, it is nonsense.

Davidski said...

@vAsiSTha

You're obviously way too dumb to get this, but for the benefit of others...

It makes no difference how much Andronovo ancestry ALA019 really has. The important thing here is that she's clearly from Central Asia, and from a period when early Indo-Aryan languages are regarded to have been expanding from the steppe into this region.

So that makes her a good candidate for an Indo-Aryan-speaking Mitanni. Duh.

vAsiSTha said...

"Zevakinskiy_MLBA as Sintashta_MLBA instead of Zevakinskiy_BA

Zevakinskiy_LBA as Andronovo_LBA, Alakul_LBA (i.e. KAZ_Alpamsa_LBA_Alakul, etc.), Fedorovo_LBA (i.e. KAZ_Aktogai_LBA, etc.) instead of Zevakinskiy_MLBA"

What?

firstly, Zevakinskiy had 0 kurgans, all burial grounds were stone fenced and burials were in stone cists. There have been 0 kurgans, chariots etc found in eastern steppe and iamc.

secondly, zev_mlba sample has only 50% sintashta_mlba ancestry, rest being okunevo(40%) and bmac(10%) as distal components, if not proximal.

third, it was being asserted that afanasievo/altai region had proto tocharians, you have to reconcile that with why no tocharian trace has been found in indo iranian given that multiple lines of evidence proves that the steppe in SC asia is through eastern steppe and not andronovo.

fourth, you have 1 more sample which shows female mediated steppe ancestry in SC asia bronze age.


Archi said...

@vAsiSTha

What nonsense is that? What does this have to do with any kurgans? Archaeological designations do not depend on the presence of barrows and genetics. They indicate the stages of development of metallurgy of the Bronze Age and other archeological stadium signs, kurgans are not included in the stadium signs, because it is purely cultural feature. In the Steppe, the stages are as follows: Circumpontic metallurgical province is an early and middle Bronze Age: the Yamnaya culture is the Early Bronze Age, the Catacomb culture is the Middle Bronze Age. After CPMP: the Andronrovo and Srubnaya cultures is the Late Bronze Age.

Jatt_Scythian said...

@Nezih Seven

Thanks. Interesting. Is that component purely West Eurasian or a mixture of East and West?





Also North Central Asia and the Tarim was predominantly Botai/WSHG like before the arrival of Indo-Europeans?

Jatt_Scythian said...

Also interesting that Kurds(in Iran?) have less Anatolia_N than Azeris and Talysh which is not what you would expect given their geography. Guess it confirms they are recent migrants from the Middle Zagros?

Archi said...


Zevakinskiy burials belong to the Andronovo culture of Fedorovo type.

Francesco Brighenti said...

@vAsiSTha

“Also, first appearance of indo aryan culture in near east is actually not with mitanni, but with kassites, starting around 2000-1800 bce.”

Actually, the Kassite language is not Indo-Aryan. It is belongs to an altogether unknown language group. The Kassite conquerors of Mesopotamia (c. 1677-1152 BCE) have a sun-god Šuriiaš, perhaps also the Maruts (attested as Maruttaš), and maybe even the Indo-Iranian god Bhaga (attested as Bugaš?), as well as the personal name Abirat(t)aš (= Indo-Aryan Abhiratha); but otherwise, the vocabulary of their largely unknown language hardly shows any Indo-Iranian or Indo-Aryan influence, not even in their many designations for the horse and horse names (perhaps barring timiraš = Old Indo-Aryan timira- ‘dark’).

Archi said...

@vAsiSTha

"that the steppe in SC asia is through eastern steppe and not andronovo."

This is a meaningless expression in general, the Eastern Steppe is the Andronovo.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Indo-Iranian_origins.png

Archi said...

Unmotivated designations of Zevakinsikiy at Narasimhan 2019:

"Zevakinsikiy_BA (n=1):
This individual is assigned genetically to the Central_Steppe_MLBA analysis label.

Zevakinsikiy_MLBA (n=1):
This individual is assigned genetically to the Steppe_LBA analysis label.

Zevakinsikiy_LBA (n=6)
These six individuals are all assigned genetically to the Steppe_LBA analysis label.
These artifacts can be attributed to the transition period
between the Final Bronze Age and the Early Iron Age.


Primary decorative elements include zigzags, horizontal ribs, grooves, and geometric patterns of triangles, characteristic of dishes made during the Fedorovo stage (of the Andronovo culture - me) of East Kazakhstan and the Yenisei Valley."

Fedorovo is not a stage of the Andronovo culture, it is a type of this culture, it appeared later Alakul type and coexisted simultaneously with it up to Alexeev type, so Narasimkhan's reasoning is wrong.

vAsiSTha said...

@francesco
Thanks, but I never claimed that kassites spoke Indo Iranian. I just said that 1st appearance of IIr culture (worship of sun God Surya) is with kassites.

Anonymous said...

Could the kurds be the descendants mitanni?

Archi said...

Srtmil said...
"Could the kurds be the descendants mitanni?"


No, the Kurdish language is northwestern Iranian. And the Mitannian language was closer to Indo-Aryan. There's no record of an Iranian presence there between Mitanni and the Cimmerian/Scythian invasion.

mzp1 said...

So the legend of female Amazon warriors is real then. Who would of thought it!

Simon_W said...

@Davidski

The genotype data of Brunel et al., "Ancient genomes from present-day France unveil 7,000 years of its demographic history" has been released, see:

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB38152

ANI EXCAVATOR said...

This is not the only Mitanni persion. There are others with much more Steppe_MLBA ancestry.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3433-Waves-of-migration-into-South-Asia&p=671199&viewfull=1#post671199

gamerz_J said...

@TR
"So is this what Gaska was making a fuss about? R and J in mesolithic southern France (Iboussieres25-1 and Iboussieres31-2)? That O1b1a1a1b(Chaudardes1_d_published)in France around 62000BC seems weirder"

Does that individual have any East Asian ancestry? Haven't read the paper yet. I think Hungary_KO1 did show some East Asian-like affinities in an older paper. Could be wrong though so anyone can correct me if wrong here.
I find it very strange that a typically Han haplogroup ended up in Europe 8000 years ago. Unless it's contamination of some sorts or other type of error.

R and J are obviously EHG-derived haplogroups in that region and I am becoming increasingly convinced J has some type of connection to ANE.

Matt said...

The three Megiddo_MLBA outlier children (the brother and sister and the other infant girl) look like they could be mixed with TKM_IA - https://imgur.com/a/yTpT0aL

Maybe something else. Not direct Western_Steppe_MLBA for sure though.

vAsiSTha said...

@matt

what do you think about Kubano_tersk or Rus_catacomb instead of TKM_IA. could you map that? north caucasus is R1b rich.

Matt said...

@vAsiSTha: Sure, added them in: https://imgur.com/a/IJ3s0Z3. It looks like they (or at least extension slightly further of Kubano-Tersk_Late) might be plausible as well. (None look quite perfect necessarily?)

Carlos Aramayo said...

@ Davidski,

Blogger ANI EXCAVATOR shows a link to anthogenica´s post by "pegasus" in which it is claimed that two individuals from Megiddo (also in Levant region, although a little South to the ALA09 woman) have significant Central Asia ancestry too. What do you think of this?:

"sample": "Custom:Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2I10100",
"fit": 2.6745,
"CustomGroup_CentralSteppeMLBA": 39.17,
"Levant_Canaanite_MBA": 39.17,
"TKM_Geoksyur_En": 20.83,
"UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA": 0.83,


Target: Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
Distance: 2.3841% / 0.02384084
43.8 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
25.4 KAZ_Dali_MLBA
14.2 MNG_Afanasievo_1
13.4 TKM_Gonur1_BA
3.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C

Target: Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
Distance: 2.3871% / 0.02387098
45.4 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
25.2 KAZ_Dali_MLBA
15.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA
14.4 MNG_Afanasievo_1

Target: Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
Distance: 2.4694% / 0.02469391
42.6 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
39.6 KAZ_Dali_MLBA
17.8 TKM_Gonur1_BA


Target: Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
Distance: 2.2798% / 0.02279795
47.4 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
26.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
16.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA
10.6 KAZ_Kumsay_EBA


Here is another claimed mixed Mittani


Target: Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1:I2200
Distance: 1.6099% / 0.01609873
52.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
28.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA
20.0 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA


Target: Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1:I2200
Distance: 1.2758% / 0.01275842
29.2 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
27.8 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
26.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA
16.2 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA

ANI EXCAVATOR said...

Matt, yep about what the modelling showed, a mix between BMAC and Steppe_MLBA, which would be something like Turkmenistan IA, which then mixed into the outliers. That's interesting in and of itself because of what it implies about the dating of such admixture.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3433-Waves-of-migration-into-South-Asia&p=671424&viewfull=1#post671424

vAsiSTha said...

Thanks matt. everyone is pushing for steppe + bmac, but it simply looks like a north caucasus population to me. especially as R1b1a2 as well as R1b1a1a2 are from there. not a single steppe_mlba or bmac uniparental in these samples. No need for a 3 way model, when a 2 way model does better.

Target: Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1:I2200
Distance: 1.5046% / 0.01504607
75.0 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
25.0 RUS_Catacomb

Lets see what the lone R turns out to be.

vAsiSTha said...

mtdna U2e1b in levant is also from north caucasus

Archi said...

vAsiSTha said...
"mtdna U2e1b in levant is also from north caucasus"

England_CA_EBA Great Britain Summerhill, Blaydon, Tyne and Wear, England [I2610, MOA 1973.4H Box 167D, 1] 1935–1745 calBCE (3515±35 BP, Poz-83498) F U2e1b

Bronze Andronovo Kazakhstan Kairan [I4780 / KZ-KAR009, Kairan I, Enclosure 7a, Grave 1 ] o 1754-1642 calBCE (3410±20 BP, PSUAMS-2913) F U2e1b

Ancestral U2e1 is European also.

Mesolithic Sweden Motala [2 / I0012] 5714-5575 calBCE (6734±30 BP, Ua-51722) M I2c PF3827+, L597+, P38+, U179+ , L41+, M253-, L37- U2e1
Mesolithic Sweden Motala [12 / I0017] 5721-5631 calBCE (6773±30 BP, Ua-51723) M I2a1b [M423] U2e1
Mesolithic Latvia Zvejnieki [I4595 / ZVEJ8] 6000-5100 BCE F U2e1
Mesolithic Narva Latvia Zvejnieki [I4626 / ZVEJ25/ Latvia_HG2] 5841-5636 calBCE (6840±55 BP, Hela-1212) M R1b1a1a U2e1
Comb Ceramic Estonia Kudruküla, Ida-Viru [3 / MA975] R1a5 YP1272 U2e1
Neolithic Mariupol type Ukraine Volniensky, Vilnianka, Grave 9 [I3715] 5636-5521 calBCE (6655±35 BP, PSUAMS-1907) M I2a2a1b1 [L701, L702] U2e1

Samuel Andrews said...

@Carlos, That is huge news. Those Bronze age Levant samples seem to be 20-30% Sintashta. They are for sure Indo-Aryans.

They seem to be mix between North Levant and Central Asia, and their Central Asian side is more Andronovo/Sintashta than BMAC.

This is big news!

vAsiSTha said...

@archi

GW1001 Russia_North_Caucasus Piedmont, Gorjačevodskij 1 Russia 2881-2671 calBCE (4174±24 BP, MAMS-29807) U2e1b

this is the oldest U2e1b

Archi said...

@vAsiSTha

This is just an accident in a sparse sample. This haplogroup came to the North Caucasus from the North, where all its related clades are located.

Bronze Ukraine Pidlisivka [poz090 / Grave 1B, barrow 1] 3350-3200 BC M U2e1a1
Bronze Yamnaya Bulgaria Golyamata Mogila, Popovo [POP3] 5000-4500 y.a. U2e1a
Copper Bell Beaker Germany Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Bavaria [I5023, RISE565] 2500–2000 BCE F U2e1a1
Copper Bell Beaker Switzerland Sion-Petit-Chasseur, Dolmen XI [I5759, BB_23_MXI] 2469–1984 BCE [two dates 2469–2041 calBCE (3820±70 BP; B-3061) and 2467–1984 calBCE (3790±80 BP; B-3064) from dolmen XI] F U2e1c1
Bronze Potapovka Russia Samara, Sok River, Grachevka [I0244 / SVP62, Grachevka II, kurgan 5, grave 3 ] o 2465-1981 calBCE [2341-1981 calBCE (3752±52 BP, AA-53806), 2465-2054 calBCE (3815±60 BP, Le-6545)] F U2e1a1
Bronze Potapovka Russia Samara, Samara River, Utyevka VI [I0419 / SVP27, Utyevka VI, kurgan 7, grave 1] 2200-1900 BCE M R1a1a1b2a2a U2e1
Bronze Potapovka Russia Utyevka VI, Samara River, Samara [I0419 / SVP 27] 2200-1900 BC M R1a1a1b S441 U2e1h
Bronze Unetice Germany Eulau [EUL 51] 2200-2136 BC U2e1f
Bronze Unetice Germany Quedlinburg VII 2 [QLB 34] 2200-1550 BC U2e1f
Bronze Unetice Germany Rocken [ROC 4] 2200-1550 BC U2e1
Bronze Unetice Poland Chociwel [RISE139] 2153-1923 BC M U2e1f1
Bronze Sintashta Russia Kamennyi Ambar 5 Cemetery [I1012 / 967, kurgan 2, burial 4, skeleton 6 / 971, kurgan 2, burial 8, skeleton 1] 2130-1750 BCE [based on five directly dated samples: 2023-1782 calBCE (3572±29 BP, OxA-12530); 1973-1772 calBCE (3549±29 BP, OxA-12531); 2005-1780 calBCE (3440±30 BP, Beta-436293); 2130-1930 calBCE (3520±30 BP, Beta-436294)] M R1(xR1b1) U2e1h
Bronze Sintashta Russia Kamennyi Ambar 5 Cemetery [I1007 / 957, kurgan 4, burial 5, skeleton 2] o1 2050-1650 BCE [based on directly dated samples from the same site] M Q1a L56 (xL53,L527,L933,Y48703,Z5902) U2e1'2'3
Bronze Sintashta Russia Kamennyi Ambar 5 Cemetery [I1055 / 952, kurgan 4, burial 2, skeleton 3] 2050-1650 BCE [based on directly dated samples from the same site] M R1a1a1b2a U2e1h
Bronze Sintashta Russia Kamennyi Ambar 5 Cemetery [I0940 / 950, kurgan 4, burial 2] 1d.rel.I1055 2050-1650 BCE [based on directly dated samples from the same site] F U2e1h
Bronze Sintashta Russia Kamennyi Ambar 5 Cemetery [I0941 / I1028 / 976, kurgan 2, burial 11, skeleton 2 / 1003, kurgan 2, burial 1] o3 1878-1664 calBCE (3440±30 BP, Beta-436293) M R1b1a1a1 M478>pre-Y14051 U2e1'2
Bronze Sintashta Russia Bol'shekaraganskii [RISE395] 1960-1756 calBCE (3540±33 BP, OxA-30996) F U2e1h
Bronze Sintashta Russia Bulanovo [RISE394] 1949-1754 calBCE (3532±34 BP, OxA-30993) F U2e1e

Rob said...

@ CrM

“ I wonder if there was a coalition of KAC and Maykop people that invaded Anatolia, or is it just a variation of KAC that is pulled further to the West Caucasian cline where Maykop is.”

Just think about this more- I still think Majkop & KAC are distinctive phenomena. KAC seems to be a heterogeneous network of traders, farmers, pastoralists.? I think with more y-dna sampling; the difference between them will be more apparent

The shift in MCA Anatolia goes back to Sioni horizon- that’s what Ikiztepe shows- which is even before KAC. Some KAC people might have taken Arslantepe itself; however

vAsiSTha said...

@archi
we are talking about u2e1b, not u2e1a/c/e/f/g/x/z or whatever
they are as different as R1a and R1b

Rob said...

If these Megiddo people are R1b-V3616 & Z2103; then they're probably from the Caucasus. Speculatively, they might have been part of a proto-Armenian group in the Caucasus, but all the way down in Israel they're probably assimilated into local Palestinian groups, given their context (intramural, or temple burials). Not Hittites

Archi said...

@vasiSTha

Accidents don't prove anything, especially in Dating. But the fact that U2e1b came to the North Caucasus from the North along with R-Z2103 is a proven fact.
Both England_CA_EBA and Andronovo have nothing to do with the Caucasus.

Davidski said...

I2189 definitely belongs to R1, and probably R1a rather than R1b.

Archi said...

U2e1b G988A * C16256T formed 9900 ybp, TMRCA 7500 ybp
European (no Caucasus)

Carlos Aramayo said...


@ Samuel Andrews,

"...Those Bronze age Levant samples seem to be 20-30% Sintashta. They are for sure Indo-Aryans. They seem to be mix between North Levant and Central Asia, and their Central Asian side is more Andronovo/Sintashta than BMAC..."

Samuel, as both samples, Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2:I10100, and Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1:I2200 are found in Agranat-Tamir et al (2020) paper, and it´s behind pay walls, can we know more of them? Can we know their haplogroup and cal C14 dating?

Nezih Seven said...

@Jatt_Scythian predominantly East Eurasian, but mixed still. I'm not sure about North Central Asia and Tarim Basin before Indo-Europeans' arrival but you're probably right. And it is generally assumed that Kurds moved into the Anatolia around thousand years ago. In that page what you see as "Iran" is not a geographical category, but a genetic one. So it doesn't mean that the samples are from Kurds of Iran (as a country). It just means that Kurds are genetically in the same category with other ethnicities of Iranian Plateau.

Davidski said...

@Carlos

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2020_AgranatTamir_Cell_Levant_Bronze_Age_0.pdf

Samuel Andrews said...

@Davidski,
Who is I2189?

Davidski said...

Huh?

Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1:I2189,0.100164,0.14319,-0.021496,-0.02584,-0.030775,-0.007809,0.009165,-0.006231,-0.026384,-0.006743,0.011205,-0.013338,0.024975,0.005505,-0.008143,-0.00769,-0.02047,0.01723,0.013575,0.013882,-0.012478,-0.001237,-0.007518,-0.003374,-0.005389

JuanRivera said...

Wonder how the Mesolithic HGs of Turkey (especially Northwestern Anatolia and Eastern Thrace) would look like genetically. I expect them (and the already known TUR_Pinarbasi_HG sample) to resemble Dzudzuana, albeit with some admixture from other populations (especially European HGs, given the I2c Y-DNAs and the U5b2 mtDNA). Those from the Black Sea coast and possibly the Sea of Marmara coast may have CHG admixture.

Archi said...

@vasiSTha

No Catacomb & North Caucasus

Distance to: Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2:I10100
0.03690705 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o:I1917
0.04233332 Levant_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA020
0.04426274 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I1063
0.04463418 Yamnaya_BGR:Bul4
0.04486925 KAZ_Alpamsa_MLBA_Alakul:I6823
0.04496287 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA:I4773
0.04500067 Corded_Ware_CZE:I6696
0.04604281 Levant_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA016
0.04625051 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA:I10140
0.04633088 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA:I4774
0.04638674 Levant_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA039
0.04654514 Corded_Ware_CHE:MX189
0.04673617 Levant_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA030
0.04686523 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I0984
0.04689733 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I1027
0.04692441 Corded_Ware_CHE:MX198
0.04696712 Corded_Ware_CZE:I7279
0.04721123 Corded_Ware_CZE:I7207
0.04723505 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I1065
0.04738586 Levant_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA037
0.04743712 Corded_Ware_CHE:MX188
0.04744365 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I0987
0.04757804 KAZ_Zevakinskiy_LBA:I3976
0.04766151 Levant_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA018
0.04787619 Levant_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA095

Target: Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2:I10100
Distance: 1.4679% / 0.01467875
57.4 Levant_Alalakh_MLBA
25.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
6.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1
3.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
2.4 Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL
0.0 RUS_Catacomb
0.0 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
0.0 ...

Archi said...

I don't think I2189 is R1a.

Distance to: Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1:I2189
0.03841224 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA037
...
0.05327607 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA035
0.05332101 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I1063
0.05351439 Yamnaya_BGR:Bul4
0.05639885 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA084

Target: Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1:I2189
Distance: 2.6435% / 0.02643510
57.2 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
15.8 Levant_Yehud_IBA
13.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus
8.0 RUS_Samara_HG
2.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
2.4 KAZ_Zevakinskiy_LBA
0.8 Corded_Ware_DEU
0.0 ....

Andrzejewski said...

Is that possible that the biblical Jebusites may have been an offshoot of the Mittani culture or some sort of KAC?

JuanRivera said...

I did a Vahaduo model on IKI002:

Target: TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI002
Distance: 3.399860%
41.0 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC
27.0 TUR_Barcin_N
12.2 TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC
11.2 Yamnaya_KAZ_Karagash
8.6 TUR_Titris_Hoyuk_EBA

I organized the results in this fashion because it doesn't involve links. The TUR_Ikiztepe_LC group in the source excluded IKI002. Someone could check the model and see if it's right or wrong. Noteworthily, in the first PCA of this blog post there's one Ikiztepe individual shifted towards Europe, lying in the intersection between ancient and modern Europe and Near East. That individual is most likely IKI002.

Romulus said...

This is kind of relevant to the Irish Paper since Irish Mesolithic and British Mesolithic are related, just an interesting bit of information.

WHGs used to butcher and cook each other and made cups from human skulls.

Abstract
A recurring theme of late Upper Palaeolithic Magdalenian human bone assemblages is the remarkable rarity of primary burials and the common occurrence of highly-fragmentary human remains mixed with occupation waste at many sites. One of the most extensive Magdalenian human bone assemblages comes from Gough's Cave, a sizeable limestone cave set in Cheddar Gorge (Somerset), UK. After its discovery in the 1880s, the site was developed as a show cave and largely emptied of sediment, at times with minimal archaeological supervision. Some of the last surviving remnants of sediment within the cave were excavated between 1986 and 1992. The excavations uncovered intensively-processed human bones intermingled with abundant butchered large mammal remains and a diverse range of flint, bone, antler, and ivory artefacts. New ultrafiltrated radiocarbon determinations demonstrate that the Upper Palaeolithic human remains were deposited over a very short period of time, possibly during a series of seasonal occupations, about 14,700 years BP (before present). The human remains have been the subject of several taphonomic studies, culminating in a detailed reanalysis of the cranial remains that showed they had been carefully modified to make skull-cups. Our present analysis of the postcrania has identified a far greater degree of human modification than recorded in earlier studies. We identify extensive evidence for defleshing, disarticulation, chewing, crushing of spongy bone, and the cracking of bones to extract marrow. The presence of human tooth marks on many of the postcranial bones provides incontrovertible evidence for cannibalism. In a wider context, the treatment of the human corpses and the manufacture and use of skull-cups at Gough Cave have parallels with other Magdalenian sites in central and western Europe. This suggests that cannibalism during the Magdalenian was part of a customary mortuary practice that combined intensive processing and consumption of the bodies with ritual use of skull-cups.

Keywords: Bone-marrow extraction; Cut-marks; Human skull-cup; Human tooth marks; Magdalenian.


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25887278/

CrM said...

@Rob

Looking at the dates, I agree on Ikiztepe. Even Chalcolithic Barcin has excess CHG, and with it some slight hints of ANE/EHG/Steppe. The Caucasus-related ancestry must have spread deeper into Anatolia before KAC.
Regarding Sioni, their samples might be vital in determining the difference between KAC and Maykop, the latter is more CHG-rich than the former, probably due to Darkveti-Meshoko type of ancestry.

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