Wednesday, February 5, 2025
G25 available again
To get your Global25 coords, please use the app HERE. The whole process usually takes a couple of days. Feel free to spread the word.
Note that the conversion of VCF, BAM, CRAM and/or fastq files is 30 to 50€ extra depending on the case. For enquiries please email teepean47 on g25requests@gmail.com.
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233 comments:
1 – 200 of 233 Newer› Newest»Happy about this.
I think I will represent a lot of people if I say that we want a similar customer service for the improved version of G25. Many of us will be disappointed if it will forever remain for academic use only.
great design 👍
The new test won't be available until the second half of this year.
And comparing the G25 coords with the results from the new test will be useful, so it won't be a direct replacement for the G25.
Davidski is it only for converting the DNA data G25 or is also autosomal results modern and ancient presented?
This tool is just for converting private genotype files into G25 coords.
@Steppe
" or is also autosomal results modern and ancient presented?"
New tools for G25 will be available Soon™ (in the first half of the year).
Good work Dave, Radio et al
could you provide the coordinates for Başur Höyük?
Should be here soon.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0q39lrsynq7prjc7mm8gq/G25-Ancients.txt?rlkey=33i5tycf3nd6glv1w7z6dleco&e=2&st=tz5ppp6c&dl=0
@EthanR
I got something like this, for a sample of the best coverage
Target: Turkey_Southeast_BaşurHöyük_EBA:SB710__BC_2950__Cov_23.34%
Distance: 1.2375% / 0.01237485 | R3P
43.6 Russia_Stavropol_EarlyMaykop_EBA
32.4 Iran_SehGabi_C.AG
24.0 Jordan_PPNB.AG
Or like this
Target: Turkey_Southeast_BaşurHöyük_EBA:SB710__BC_2950__Cov_23.34%
Distance: 1.1188% / 0.01118841 | R3P
40.6 Iran_ShahTepe_BA.SG
39.6 Turkey_BlackSea_Ikiztepe_Chalcolithic.AG
19.8 Jordan_Baja_Late_PPNB.AG
Target: Turkey_Southeast_BaşurHöyük_EBA:SB731__BC_2950__Cov_9.75%
Distance: 2.5556% / 0.02555613 | R3P
47.6 Israel_C.AG
30.4 Russia_Caucasus_Eneolithic_sibling.I2055_sibling.I2056.AG
22.0 Iran_GanjDareh_N_son.I1946_brother.I1947.AG
which one is R1b?
Looking at it and other samples further it's more like 75% Kura-Araxes.
The SE Anatolia ChL/EBA samples (Arslantepe, BasurHoyuk, Sirnak) all have the same problem, where all their Steppe ancestry can be accounted for within the diversity of Kura Araxes. Central Anatolia BA is the same or higher Steppe (especially MA2203), and West Anatolia is consistently higher Steppe.
You'd expect the opposite to be the case if all the Steppe ancestry in Anatolia arrived from the east.
The "R1b" one is the 0.63% coverage one that didn't make the sheet.
Taking the G25 for a spin to quick look at lingering debates: Slavs and Nordic I1 source
https://imgur.com/a/gDkiAQ4
Even with the new Trziniec , Luzatian data, the Szolad Slav ('Avar') seems to lie on a cline between Hungary BA and Baltic LBA
Looking at the Nordic PCA, one cline is a steppe- central Europe, whilst the I1 individuals seem pulled toward Ostorf and other WHGs, like Loschbour. Fairly clearly cut that I1 isn't from Finland (proxy Karelia HG)
@EthanR
I just saw on Twitter that the coordinates for this sample were obtained by simulating from K12b. Wouldn't it be possible to get G25 directly from the genetic DNA file without these extra transformations and conversions through the intermediary K12b?
I haven’t quite kept up with all the medieval stuff. Does anyone know any other more or less ‘ pure’ mediaeval Slav profiles amongst the samples coming in from East Germany, Avaria or amongst the Magyars ?
@Rob
Distance to: Germany_MA_KrakauerBerg:KRA011__AD_1099__Cov_65.29%
0.02201335 Belarusian
Distance to: Germany_MA_KrakauerBerg:KRA010__AD_1329__Cov_63.34%
0.01919806 Ukrainian_Sumy
Distance to: Germany_MA_KrakauerBerg:KRA009__AD_1206__Cov_66.36%
0.02058787 Ukrainian_Rivne
Distance to: Germany_MA_KrakauerBerg:KRA008__AD_1351__Cov_64.45%
0.02609658 Ukrainian_Rivne
Distance to: Germany_MA_KrakauerBerg:KRA007__AD_1209__Cov_44.62%
0.02738944 Russian_Smolensk
Distance to: Germany_MA_KrakauerBerg:KRA006__AD_1242__Cov_58.52%
0.01576844 Ukrainian_Sumy
Distance to: Germany_MA_KrakauerBerg:KRA005__AD_1214__Cov_73.63%
0.02140656 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
Distance to: Germany_MA_KrakauerBerg:KRA004__AD_1338__Cov_65.33%
0.02734366 Lithuanian_PA
Distance to: Germany_MA_KrakauerBerg:KRA001__AD_1138__Cov_54.97%
0.02626587 Ukrainian_Rivne
@Rob
Spot on.
I1 Eastern Scandinavians prefer Ertebølle and/or Ostorf (which are Ertebølle guys with TRB admix) as their excess HG source. Southern Scandinavians have the same HG ancestry just at lower frequencies. We are talking minute differences between them.
McColl even suggests in the supplementary that the so-called ENS Beaker-derived cluster has Latvian HG ancestry as well.
They are creative storytellers but subpar at analysing the data soberly.
Vahaduo
thank you then let me know when the Antique Calculator comes
@ Rob
how come you used a West Eurasian PCA for the Germanics and just a European for the Szolad Slav ?
@ SimonW
Thanks.
The KrakauerBerg sit on the same cline but a tad shifted closer toward the Baltic BA samples, but still well 'south' of Baltic BA (this is probably old news to some folks)
@ Corded Slav
It depends on what you're looking at.
An intra-European PCA, such as the North Europe PCA will delineate clines and clusters for populations falling within the diversity of extant/ modern Europeans, eg for people interested in differentiating Celts from Germanics, as Dave has blogged about in greater detail.
Wrt Slavs, the Europe PCA shows (and with adding the Slavs from east Saxony) is
1. there might be a proto-Slavic cluster
2. the cluster doesnt seem to be synonymous with any preceding population, although that might change with time
3, the cluster falls between the Carpathian basin and East Baltic.
This might mean that proto-Slavs are a novel amalgamation of 2 or more groups, albeit within a relatively confined geography, which then expanded.
Then you hone in on individual site dynamics with IBD (e.g. some Slav areas remained more tribal in character, whilst some sites were more cosmopolitan 'proto-towns'.
But for the Nordic PCA we wanted to enquire as to the possible source of the I1-rich LNBA Nordics. If we use an intra-European PCA, the HGs will all bunched together off field. But a broader West Eurasian PCA will separate all the different HG subsets (pure WHG, vs Motala, vs Baltics, vs Karelian/ Fin EHG). The source regions for HG-rich admixture in Late Neolithic and Bronze Age can then be traced in a fairly unambiguous manner, as subsets from the main European LNBA cluster will literally point to it. For likely conclusion; see Asega's description.
@Davidski What is the difference between scaled and unscaled coordinates and below what number should the distance be for unscaled models. I bought my G25 coordinates and used both scaled and unscaled. The results and the distances were different. On scaled I got 8.5% East Asian and on unscaled i got 13% East asian (I am Turkish).
@R7F00
Scaled coords are optimized to produce results similar to those from raw data (you can compare scaled vs unscaled PCA to see the difference). They're more reliable.
R7F00
I also noticed that in unscaled the East Asian ancestry is higher for West Asians. The same is true for Steppe ancestry.
Great job the app.
Concerning the new improved G25 about which comments were made above. Is there a risk that it will replace the current G25 or they have different purposes?
So in the end we have Krivyanski (I2-L699 + R1b-M269?) type pop that can be considered earliest Indo-Anatolians, a mix of (UHG + EHG + CHG), WestCaucasus_N (Kartvel./NWC related), the first one being PPIA or something, closely related to Middle Don (Golubaya Krinitsa) Ceramic Mesolithic, except being more EHG shifted than them.
Krivyanski + TTK + UHG/Ukraine_N = SS_core (PIA) (R1b-M269 + I2-L699)
SS_core + Gumelnita + Maykop/Leylatepe = Usatove (PA) (I2-L699)
SS_core + Ukraine_N = SS_med (R1a-M417)
Steppe_En + Leylatepe/protoMaikop = Steppe_LateEn (R1b-V1636 + J2b-L283)
SS_core + Steppe_LateEn = Yamnaya_core (PIE)
SS_med + Yamnaya_core + GAC (Germ. I1) = CWC (PIE_A) (R1b-L51 & R1a-M417 & Germ. I1)
Yamnaya_core = Afanasievo (R1b-Z2103+)
Yamnaya_core = Catacomb_core (R1b-Z2103+, J2b-L283, Arm. I2c) (PIE_B)
Looking at the Zolotarevka (ZO1002) J2b L283 sample dated to ~4000 BCE, I would estimate that this lineage was at least present out on the Kuma Manych Steppe by about 5000 BCE (Steppe Eneolithic + Caucasus Eneolithic).
A bit of a head scratcher that Harvard did not focus more on this marker, as it neatly encapsulates their theory that CLV people contributed to the formation of early Yamnaya. With J2b L283, there is genetic continuity linking this marker with the direct linguistic offshoots of the Yamnaya in Albanian, Greek (Mycenaean) and Armenian and more distantly with the “Remontnoye” type profile that formed on the Manych Steppe. Of course, there are now several Yamnaya J2b L283 samples published from western and eastern Moldova, with one even coming from the “Genetic Origins of Indo Europeans” study, linking the western steppe (Ukraine, Moldova) with the Manych Steppe in the East to the Balkans in the west.
Hmm mr Gabru was absent for a long time I think during this time he was born with great ideas and theories
@Aram
It won't be an updated G25 but a different test, so it's hard to say how that will affect everything.
@Sam Elliott
Do you think people with a profile like Zolotorevka lived in the North Caucasus as early as 5000 BC? Do you mean Nalchik? But Zolotorevka has a different composition (Eneolithic steppe + Copper Age Azerbaijan) in contrast to Nalchik (Neolithic steppe + chg+Aknashen)
@Elliot
No imo L283 is Maikop derived, not Kartvelian/NWC related "Caucasus_Eneolithic", Maikop and Remontnoye/Zolotarevka "Steppe_LateEn" are on a cline, Maikop = 65% Azerbaijan_C + 35% Steppe_En, Remontnoye/ZO = 50% Steppe_En + 50% Azerbaijan_C. The Krivyanski J2a is from Darkveti Meshoko admix, which also brought Kartvelian and NWC linguistic elements and influences on PIA
@Mr Funk
Appreciate it
I got to say, this is really great news. I much prefer my friend Teepean over the Illustrative guys for this service. As always many thanks to David for continuing to offer G25 conversions for ancient DNA, too. Whatever happens when David's upcoming new system goes live, I believe that the current G25 remains an awesome tool and hope it continues to be offered for years to come (much as the Eurogenes Gedmatch calcs remained very popular even after G25 superseded them).
Incidentally I've also updated my own curation of G25 averages (Moriopoulos Collection) for 2025. It's based on >40,000 individual samples. Links at Genarchivist in this post for those interested:
https://genarchivist.net/showthread.php?tid=1449
@ Sam Elliot
An unbiased appraisal of the data paints a picture almost in complete opposite to what you are describing. ZO102 dates to ~ 3800 BC, and as articulated in the suppl of the paper, those burials are founded in the early Majkop period, although problematically ascribed as 'Early Yamnaya' by the authors in their copy/pasting of Russian archaeological definitions. By contrast, the 'CLV' (sensu 4700 - 4000 BC) is strongly associated with R1b-V1636 (athough the entire definitiion invented by Harvard is wishy-washy and narrative-driven).
So rather than presenting Y-hg continuity with CLV, J2b2 is a hallmark of a profound discontinuity. But maybe future discoveries of J2b2 in 5000 BC steppe might vindicate your views(?)
The other problem is you dont seem to appreciate the geographic relevance of the Moldovan "Yamnaya' samples, which have been rightly re-defined as Budzhak culture by European archaeologists, as it differed from classic Yamnaya due to the greater diversity. In reality, classic Yamnaya from Hungary or the Ponto-Caspian steppe has 0 J2b2 samples.
All this points to a significant avoidance between R1b-Z2103 'Yamnaya' males and J2b2 Majkopians, although they seem to have been part of a broader interaction sphere
@ Anon_BGP
Did you end up getting a pass from Kriv._EN ?
J2b L283 is a completely separate lineage from Maykop as evidenced by the ancestral components that constitute the late steppe Eneolithic outlier genome, which is around a 50/50 split between steppe Eneolithic and Caucasus Eneolithic ancestry. Maykop are completely different.
The key finding for J2b L283 amongst the Yamnaya (in addition to the ~4000 BCE Yamnaya kurgan burial from Zolotarevka, Russia) is the discovery of the Z597 branch amongst Late Yamnaya (Or Budzhak Yamnaya) in eastern Moldova on the Ukraine border. Most, but not all European J2b L283 lines, descend from this branch. This likely places the point of origin for the many Eneolithic J2b L283 branches just older than Z597 slightly east of the Lower Dnipro, or from the hypothesized Core Yamnaya homeland of the Lower Mikhaylovka Culture. Lower Mikhaylovka, specifically Mikhaylovka I, is dated to about 3600-3400 BCE, which corresponds with the many J2b L283 branches with formed/TMRCA dates of 3600 and 3500 BCE.
From the Supplementary section of the “The rise and transformation of Bronze Age pastoralists in the Caucasus”:
Z01002, BZNK-1041/1, kurgan 26, grave 4. Context information: Grave 4 is the initial grave and located in the centre of the mound. It is a single inhumation in crouched position on its left side, with the head in the west. The grave-pit is round-oval and was covered by stone slabs. The skeleton is covered by red ochre and below the skeleton organic matter was found. The burial equipment is a whetstone and a sulphur lump modelled in a round shape. Cultural affiliation & dating: a-typical, probably early or Pre-Yamnaya, MAMS-42369: 5029+22 BP (cal. BC 3936-3780, cal. BC 3947-3713), hb.
And…
“The founding grave is Yamnaya-associated grave 4 of mound shell 1 with a diameter of ca. 6.5-7 m. Two more graves date to the Yamnaya phase, while ten other graves are associated with different phases of Catacomb culture.”
@Rob
I've deleted qpAdm and all the files and commands, when I ran it passed as Nalchik + Golubaya Krinitsa Mesolithic / Middle Don. But the actual model might be Caucasus_Eneolithic/Darkveti Meshoko + (Ukraine_N + Satanay + Kotias)
I think people with the Zolotarevka/Remontnoye type profile, which was a 50/50 mix of Eneolithic Steppe and Caucasus Eneolithic, was present between roughly Berezhnovka and the N. Caucasus as early as 5000-4500 BCE.
The difference between J2b L283, a CLV lineage, and all other known CLV lineages, is that it’s the only CLV lineage that shows clear cut genetic continuity from the Pontic Caspian steppe to the Balkans, where it is found in early Albanian, Mycenaean Greek, and even Armenian speakers (RISE408 Sample from Lchashen Metsamor).
Can someone run Core Yamnaya = SS_high + NV3003 + maybe Azerbaijan_C? Tbh I'm not convinced of Remontnoye/ZO admix, it's possible Late Novodanilovka also took incoming Maikop admix along with Steppe Eneolithic
@Michalis Moriopoulos
Great job
@Anon_BGP
Target: Lak.HO
P-Value: 8.15e-1 / 0.815 || Pass = >0.05 & No Negative
Admixture proportions:
37.3% Russia_Caucasus_Eneolithic.AG (SE: 0.0443)
33.8% Armenia_Aknashen_N.SG (SE: 0.0444)
28.9% Russia_Khvalynsk_Eneolithic.AG (SE: 0.0238)
Is it okay?
@ Sam Elliot
You left out ''The excavations could reveal a chronological shift of the mounds starting from the Maykop period''.
A Yamnaya -related ''shell'', you say, wow that's strong affinities.
The fact that they have a different genomic affinity from core Majkop groups further south doesnt change the fact that they appeared with the emergence of Majkop, or that they can be modelled as deriving much of their non-EHG ancestry from it. And as the 14C dates range from 3900-3800 BC, im not sure why you are rounding it up to 4000 or 5000 BC
Majkop was a complex society with inherent diversity, different to the relatively 'flat' tribal structure of later Yamnaya. We shouldn't ignore the obvious chronological correspondences
Run Caucasus_KuraAraxes + Catacomb/Yamnaya/Afanasievo + Kazakhstan_Mediaeval_Nomad
It's not clear to me after looking at the paper and supplement again that a Steppe_eneolithic and Maikop model is even tested for those individuals. Has anyone tried that independently?
In any case, this isn't a real issue as there's evidence that different ancestry throughout the entire CLV cline reached the NW Pontic region during the eneolithic.
@ Sam Elliot
Where is this J2b 'continuity' you're imagining ?
pre-4000 BC
Unakazovskaya 2055: J2a-Z7671
Unakazovskaya 2056: J2a-Z7671
'steppe eneolithic:
PG2001 -R1b-V1636
PG2004 R1b-V1636
JUG007 R1b-V1636
SNG001 R1b-V1636
KT6001 R1b-V1636
SNG001 R1b-V1636
I28683 R1b-V1636
Nalchik -1 R1b-pre-V1636
Nalchik 2 R1b-pre-V1636
------
post 3900 BC
ZO1002: J2b-L283
It's abundantly clear that j2b are recent migrants from Iran or Azerbajan
In G25, FWIW, only PG2001 and VJ1001 prefer Meshoko over Maikop (although in VJ's case I suspect it may be because of excess raw CHG as opposed to it being indicative of a particular south caucasian source). It's more or less consistent with Lazaridis' findings.
https://i.postimg.cc/PfbX5k3B/1eca3adc8b12b58100ff74e6c67582a6.png
Source Steppe Eneolithic is PG2004+SH3001 as the ones without detectable southern ancestry. Note that this is the Ghalichi Nalchik sample which behaves differently, and also we obviously have many more Maikop samples than Meshoko.
Early Yamnaya (4000 BCE) J2b L283 are not recent migrants from Iran or Azerbaijan. That would be evident in the ZO1002 sample if that were the case. It is a classic Caucasus Lower Volga (CLV) cline sample, a 50/50 split of Caucasus Eneolithic and Steppe Eneolithic ancestry that was essential for the formation of Core Yamnaya between the Don and Dnipro Rivers. This admixture event is estimated to have occurred between 4100-3900 BCE, or the same age as the ZO1002 sample.
Fast forward 1000 years, and there are multiple Yamnaya migrations containing J2b L283 streaming into the Balkans starting around 3000 BCE. This is where Core Yamnaya is thought to be responsible for language shift as admixture with local EEF groups begins to occur.
This is what I mean by genetic continuity. This connects J2b L283 to the CLV cline in the east (Manych Steppe) to the Lower Mikhaylovka Group along the Black Sea Steppe (Ukraine and Moldova) to Albanian, Greek (Mycenaean) and Armenian speakers. These are direct offshoots of the Yamnaya and their early languages.
There isn’t any R1b V1636 found amongst these early PIE speakers in SE Europe, whereas J2b L283 checks all the boxes.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1luwBVUlmGoqbj7yzO2tyKKIJlvh7mtQX&hl=en_US&ll=48.749927729634116%2C22.6271305&z=3
@ Ethan
''In any case, this isn't a real issue as there's evidence that different ancestry throughout the entire CLV cline reached the NW Pontic region during the eneolithic.''
These are often very different groups which happen to share similar mixes of EHG, CHG, south Caucasus Farmer, & TTK ancestry.
At the very least, it can be split into 2 broad groups, the early Eneolithic phase, where V1636 clans dominated the north Caucasus region and Caucasian males were limited to the mountain flanks.
By contrast, a later Eneolithic phase sees a downfall of the V1636 clan dominance and a large push by disparate Caucasian-Iranian groups as far north as the lower Don. There is a cultural i>discontinuity , and new Majkop-style kurgans were opened, which differ to the earlier modest Nalchik-Progress mounds.
Things upturned again ~ 3000 BC when the Majkop social system collapse and Yamnaya pushed onto toward the Caucasus mountains.
Calling all these dynamics events unfolding over 1,500 "CLV' is simply dumb or intentionally disingenous, probably both, given the protoplasm of people making such claims
@ Corded
''Where is this J2b 'continuity' you're imagining ?''
There is none. Not only does J2b arrive after 3900 BC, but a host of other 'southern' lineages ranging from L, T1a, G2a, etc
In fact, there is some continuity but of different lineages, namely under J2a-M67 shared by Unazovkskaya and some Majkop males, and the handful of R1b-V1636 which survive.
"There isn’t any R1b V1636 found amongst these early PIE speakers in SE Europe"
R-V1636 appears in Cernavoda I and Bronze Age Greece.
J2b is South Caucasus marker, and it's actually present in Maikop afaik even a subclade related to L283. J2b has nothing to do with Kartvelian/NWC/NEC who derive from Meshoko-Darkveti cultural complex, who are in turn J2a, J1, G2a etc. To claim J2b-L283 has presence older than 4000BCE just falls apart because of above mentioned things. What we know is some Meshoko J2a did manage to get into Steppe as seen from Krivyanski but it didn't have any significant impact and probably died due to low frequency. CLV (Steppe Eneolithic) is irrelevant for SS and only relevant for Maikop, Steppe Maikop, Khvalynsk, Remontnoye/ZO, etc. SS derives from a western sibling (in Lower Don region) of Steppe Eneolithic
The events are like this:-
6200BCE : CHG escaping the intruding Mesopotamians and rushing towards Steppe due to 8.2 ky event
5200BCE : The newly formed CHG + Mesopotamia_PPN = "Darkveti-Meshoko" aka Kartvelian/NWC related folk migrate to Steppe northwards bringing linguistic influences, autosomal (Krivyan, KHB, Nalchik, Steppe_En) and J2a (Krivyanski)
4100BCE : A joint Maikop + Steppe Maikop invasion of CLV which leads to CLV's complete demise in their stronghold, new profiles form -
Remontnote/ZO (50% Steppe_En + 50% Azerbaijan_C)
Steppe Maikop (Kumsay) (50% Steppe_En + 50% Botai)
Core Maikop (30% Steppe_En + 70% Azerbaijan_C)
Then we see Maikop's short lived cultural dominance coming to an end as Meshoko again intrudes into Kuban region and admixes Maikop to give Novosvobodnaya/"LateMaikop" i.e. Core Maikop + Unakozovskaya, this profile in turn is most likely proto-North-Caucasian and it results in Velikent (NEC) and Late Kubano-Tersk (NWC) cultures
False. There has never been a subclade of, or any J2b L283 for that matter, discovered amongst the Maykop.
If J2b L283 isn’t older than 4000 BCE on the Pontic Caspian steppe, how could it be found already in the middle of the Manych Steppe with a hybrid 50% Eneolithic Steppe/50 % Caucasus Steppe genome by 4000 BCE?
Sredny Stog genomes already have Aknashen ancestry from movements of CLV people.
@EthanR
also among modern Armenians R1b V1636 is very rare, but it is found. Here is what the picture looks like for those R1b that are found among modern Armenians:
R1b-Z2103 – 87.8%
R1b-L51 – 6.3%
R1b-PF7562 – 4.8%
R1b-V1636 – 0.9%
R1b-PH200 – 0.2%
for the sub-branch Z2103 the following picture
L584 – 59.9%
Y4362 – 39.2%
Z2109 – 2.7%
@Anon_BGP
it may well be that the source of CHG for the steppe Eneolithic lived for a long time on nec, invents cattle breeding (with/without the participation of cattle breeders from northwestern Iran) and gradually descends to the plain, mixes with hunters from the western Caucasus - Satanay, and e expands in all directions, acquires additional mixtures from Central Asia, Ukraine, the southern Caucasus / Georgia, and so on
Caspian Sea reaches record low in 400 years
https://noi.md/ru/nauka-i-it/kaspijskoe-more-dostiglo-rekordno-nizkogo-urovnya-za-poslednie-400-let
@ Anon
''The events are like this''
That's a nice summary, I think you're pretty much on point. But if I were to comment for the sake of discussion :
''6200BCE : CHG escaping the intruding Mesopotamians and rushing towards Steppe due to 8.2 ky event''.
Glad to see you've accepted that was a early mini wave of CHG reaching the lower reaches of the Volga & Don. Im not sure they were really 'escaping' PPN-origin farmers. Like in Europe, early Farmers and native CHG hunters occupied distinct niches, so are unlikely to have come into resource-constrained conflicts.
''Core Maikop (30% Steppe_En + 70% Azerbaijan_C)''
I dont think Core Maikop have quite that high steppe ancestry if one accounts for CHG-rich Meshoko ancestry. Oss001, one of the more steppe shifted early Majkop individuals is approx 65% south caucasus Farmer, 20% Meshoko, 15% Khvalynsk.
Curiously, the 'Dolmen' individual from Marchenkova Gora has ~ 20% En_steppe ancestry. Being MLBA, it is perhaps not too surprising given the steppe ancestry in the so-called North caucasus MBA and Lola groups.
''Then we see Maikop's short lived cultural dominance coming to an end as Meshoko again intrudes into Kuban region and admixes Maikop to give Novosvobodnaya/"LateMaikop" i.e. Core Maikop + Unakozovskaya,''
The Majkop phenomenon existed for ~ 800 years, not too ''short''.
I dont think the shift to Novosvobodnaya is due to Meshoko per se, as culturally that complex ceased to exist. if you plug in maikop individuals on a G25 -based PCA, you might note that Novosvobodnaja and some Late Maikop (e.g. sa6002) plot more 'south' of Unakazovskaya.
This means that there was a relatively constant flow of migrants from the southern Caucasus toward the northwestern Caucasian mountain slopes between 4500 and 3300 BC. Some archaeologists classify Novosvobodnaja as a separate culture to (early) Maikop although most commonly it is seen as a late variant. This might mean that early Maikop relates to Ubaid and Leila Tepe networks, whilst Novosvobodnaja relates to the expansion of the Uruk sphere
We might get into the Caucasian MLBA and historic ethnolinguistic groups later ..
''J2b is South Caucasus marker, and it's actually present in Maikop afaik even a subclade related to L283''
Komsomolec 23 (KMM023, (cal. BC 3352-3109)
Although this individual is J-FT3464. More distnat cousins have been found in Hajji Firuz and Mentesh Tepe, but some would say that they are 'completely unrelated" LOL
Further, the concept of 'steppe Maijkop' should be extended to include all Maikop era kurgans as far as the Don (incl the ZO group), not just the Siberian-looking individuals.
@Rob
The 10+ newer Core Maikop samples from Ghalichi 2024 are same as OSS001 (or 002 idr), that's why I said 30%. And it makes sense as Maikop is basically intruding Azerbaijan_C over a territory that Steppe_En occupied. Dolmen is low cov, but afaik it's related to KBD / Late Kubano Tersk Abkhazian-like NWC pop. I agree with J2b being Maikop, though I think Steppe Maikop is a wrong label, not sure if it's due to their burials but afaik their material culture is same as Kumsay/Mereke aka the genetic clone of Steppe Maikop.
Makes sense, therefore as early 'core Majkop 'and northern Majkop both have steppe ancestry, it means they are clinal and related .
'Steppe majkop' isn't really a well-defined entity, it was just coined by Chernykh to refer to lower-status Majkop-type burials in areas north of the big kurgans like Klady and Majkop.
@Mr Funk
I learned recently that Iberian Neolithic Farmers were herding cattle 6000 years ago. Seems Steppe people had nothing special to offer with respect to cattle herding. Was probably introduced in the opposite direction, I.E. from EEF to the Steppe.
https://phys.org/news/2025-02-iberian-neolithic-herders-strategically-cattle.html
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0317723
Some observations on J-L283:
1. The Zolotarevka sample almost certainly can, and should be modelled with a Maikop-related source. The similar Remontnoye samples also prefer Maikop to Meshoko in both G25 and qpAdm.
2. The "Core Yamnaya" profile develops by around 4000BC (using DATES). The South Caucasian source in Yamnaya is probably older than that, given the clinal relationship it shares with Sredni Stog which begins ~4400BC.
Despite Yamnaya being modelled as SShi+Remontnoye, this is what Lazaridis actually has to say about it:
"Therefore it is parsimonious to assume that the Core Yamnaya are descended from an unsampled Serednii Stih population (of even lower hunter-gatherer ancestry), rather than the alternative that a different admixture proportion led to their formation and coincidentally resulted in a mixed population at precisely the edge of the Serednii Stih cline."
This is further supported by samples like KST001 already existing by ~3850BC which is R-M269 and more or less cladal with Yamnaya.
3. This implies the formation of core Yamnaya likely precedes Maikop, pre-Maikop, and Zolotarevka. This implies a different South Caucasian source.
4. Post-mesolithic, J2b generally seems to have a more genetically "eastern" distribution (Mentesh-tepe, Hajji Firuz, Maikop) as opposed to a "western" orientation (more like Meshoko).
5. Both direct and mediated Maikop ancestry has been pouring into the NW Pontic since the eneolithic (Kartal_B cluster, a nearly full Maikop individual in Zhyvotylivka, etc).
6. The one published Moldovan Yamnaya J-L283 (I10206) is from 2700BC, and doesn't cluster with core Yamnaya because of excess Balkan/Western ancestry). The other is in preprint and is from 2500BC.
7. J-L283 does not appear in any other Yamnaya or Yamnaya-related context (SS, CWC, Afanasievo). We have hundreds of these samples.
All in all the evidence is most consistent with J-L283 being Maikop-related, and absorbed by incoming Yamnaya groups in the NW Pontic, as opposed to J-L283 entering SS/Yamnaya during the latter's initial formation.
J2B2-L283 was Core Yamnaya in 4000 BC, in addition to 3 other EBA steppe samples. Cut the b.s.
I know it breaks some of your little fantasies and "theories", but the empirical evidence is quite clear.
-There are no ancient J2b L283 Maykop samples at this time, despite robust sampling of many key Maykop sites.
-There are currently 4 Yamnaya J2b L283 samples. That number will surely grow once they start sampling from the Koisug area on the Lower Don through Lower Mikhaylovka on the Lower Dnipro.
-Western Yamnaya J2b L283 (Both western and eastern Moldova) have zero Maykop ancestry. Crihana Veche I10206 was specifically modeled as 84% Core Yamnaya and 16% Trypillian ancestry. This sample and others like it were used to illustrate the likely transmission of Indo European languages on the western steppe.
-There are many Yamnaya samples from Moldova that have Maykop ancestry. None belong to J2b L283. There are, however, R1b Z2103 samples in the same general vicinity with upwards of 15% Maykop ancestry.
-Zolotarevka is indistinguishable from Remontnoye. They are approximately the same age at about 4000 BCE. This Remontnoye/Zolotarevka ancestry from the middle of the CLV cline (and the heartland of the Manych Steppe) constitutes about 25% of the Core Yamnaya genome starting between 4100-3900 BCE.
-80% of the Core Yamnaya ancestry comes from CLV folk, where logically J2b L283 had to be present between 5000-4000 BCE, probably closer to 5000-4500 BCE timeframe based on Zolotarevka, a late steppe Eneolithic outlier, modeled as a 50/50 split of Caucasus Eneolithic/Steppe Eneolithic ancestry. Based on Reinhold and Ghalichi, Caucasus Eneolithic is dated to about 4800 BCE, steppe Eneolithic 4500 BCE. That’s why I have my range finder set to 5000-4500 BCE for this particular lineage.
-The Late Steppe Eneolithic outlier genome is estimated to have formed around 4200 BCE. So no matter how you cut it, 4800 BCE, 4500 BCE, and 4200 BCE all predate Maykop.
-Most importantly, Reinhold and Ghalichi modeled early Maykop, late Maykop, and Maykop Novosvobodnaya as part of their recent study on the Caucasus. All are very different from the J2b L283 pre Yamnaya sample from Zolotarevka and the late steppe Eneolithic outlier genome. See their sankey diagram. It’s a game changer.
-The formation of Maykop, late Maykop, and Maykop Novosvobodnaya genomes all post date the formation of the late steppe Eneolithic outlier, ZO1002.
-Read the “The rise and transformation of Bronze Age pastoralists in the Caucasus” by Ghalichi/Reinhold. It’s a solid paper (maybe best I’ve ever seen) that does an excellent job of delineating who are Maykop and who are not Maykop based on ancient DNA sampling.
@Romulus the I2a L233+ Proto Balto-Slav, layer of Corded Ware WomenFebruary 15
Thanks for the information, no one argues that in Europe before the CWC there were cattle breeders, but this was not the main source of food.
@ Romulus
''I learned recently that Iberian Neolithic Farmers were herding cattle 6000 years ago. Seems Steppe people had nothing special to offer with respect to cattle herding. Was probably introduced in the opposite direction, I.E. from EEF to the Steppe.''
Any 'farmer' society has the propensity to herd cattle. Domestic animals are part of the neolithic package, not just legumes and seeds.
Animal husbandry however seems to have been more limited in early Farmers, then became increasingly prominent over time as segments of the male population became devoted to the role. This is why painted pottery and worship of the mother goddess was already declining even before the steppe migrations.
As for how steppe hunters became steppe herders, it's a complex issue
@ Asega
'I1 Eastern Scandinavians prefer Ertebølle and/or Ostorf (which are Ertebølle guys with TRB admix) as their excess HG source. Southern Scandinavians have the same HG ancestry just at lower frequencies. We are talking minute differences between them.
McColl even suggests in the supplementary that the so-called ENS Beaker-derived cluster has Latvian HG ancestry as well.
They are creative storytellers but subpar at analysing the data soberly.''
TBH, given that this team published the new Kulloba & Kaman-Kalehoyuk data, Im not going to complain, although the penny didnt drop for them on that issue either.
But it seems like there were a few pre-I1 lineages around northern and western Europe, and given the 'young' TMRCA of extant I1, it must have come from a group still in hunter-gatherer or 'sub-Neolithic' mode of subsitence. C.f. certain I2 lineages which seem to have a Neolithic expansion time as they
@ princess Dragon
You had no issue schilling for the claim that R1a was a Yamnaya servant class, but went silent after we learned that even R1b--M269 was sparse in the early Eneolithic steppe. You now prance around claiming that j2b2 is a Yamnaya lineage despite evidence to the contrary. You are free to use whatever pronouns you want, but don't castigate those who prefer to be realists, as you're clearly projecting. At least bring some intelligent analysis to the table rather than copy/pasting cliches
@EthanR
Afaik, Remontnoye is legitimate contributor and it makes sense, ZO (Remontnoye clone) has confirmed L283 and that's where it got into Yamnaya. What I'd like to speculate is if Remontnoye was fleeing away from Maikopians and Kumsayans, and if Remontnoye/ZO ended up assimilating into Serednii Stih and then this proto Mikhaylovka profile in Southern Ukraine started moving in all directions. Imo this makes more sense. Circa 3800BCE Remontnoye/ZO L283 + V1636 refugees start coming into Late Core Serednii, probably fleeing from their conflict with Maikop + Steppe Maikop, thede Late CLV refugees get assimilated and admix with Late Core Serednii and form Yamnaya profile, from Southern Ukraine 3800BCE Yamnaya profile starts expanding. Despite all the talk about Repin, that case has been dead even as per Anthony, the homeland is probably Mikhaylovka as some archaeologists do consider
@ Ethan R
'''Post-mesolithic, J2b generally seems to have a more genetically "eastern" distribution (Mentesh-tepe, Hajji Firuz, Maikop) as opposed to a "western" orientation (more like Meshoko).''
This is further supported by the fact the Majkop individuals (across the board) have lower ANF ancestry than Georgia_N and Masis Blur*. This suggests that there was an additional 'wave' from a more eastern segment of the PPN sphere 4000 BC
* however, Aknashen has high levels of Iran_N and minimal ANF,
"J2B2-L283 was Core Yamnaya in 4000 BC, in addition to 3 other EBA steppe samples. Cut the b.s."
Post their IDs then.
Oh wait you can't because they don't exist.
There aren't "many" Moldovan samples, eneolithic or Yamnaya. There's actually relatively few.
Any autosomal signal in the NW Pontic is going to be muted by at least two periods of dilution, given that the samples we have date to 2700BC and 2500BC.
And this is the one J-L283 published:
Distance to: Moldova_EBA_Yamnaya:I10206__BC_2700__Cov_21.09%
0.03954056 Moldova_BA
0.04243547 Moldova_MBA
0.04288438 Lithuania_LN
0.04598017 Russia_Kalmykia_EBA_Yamnaya.SG
0.04609748 Mongolia_Bayankhongor_EBA
0.04647725 Moldova_MBA_MultiCordonedWare
@Anon_BGP
Can you post Anthony's comments on Repin?
I don't find the Mykhailovka evidence convincing on its own (the sample is also poor coverage, cladal for both Steppe Eneolithic and Yamnaya). If the criteria is the first sample that is cladal for core Yamnaya, then KST001 may as well represent the homeland.
There isn't much evidence that Remontnoye contributed to Yamnaya in a second admixture event, as per the quote from the paper's supplemental. I'm not sure if it's geographically harmonious either given that by the mid third millenium BC, the lower Don seemed to be extremely Ukraine_N-rich (hence the continuation of Konstaninovka pottery and Don Yamnaya being modellable as Core Yamnaya+SSmed).
If something similar to Remontnoye contributed, this is likely something much older, and assisted in forming SS more generally.
@ Sam Elliot
''Read the “The rise and transformation of Bronze Age pastoralists in the Caucasus” by Ghalichi/Reinhold. It’s a solid paper (maybe best I’ve ever seen) that does an excellent job of delineating who are Maykop and who are not Maykop based on ancient DNA sampling.
Its okay but not perfect. The most obvious flaw is their misattrubution of Majkop burials as 'early Yamnaya'. They didnt even quite nail the Neolithic samples, so that puts out the rest of their models
ZO1 is the same genomic cluster as Early Majkop OSS1, theyre basically the same population with slightly different ratios
OSS1
@EthanR
🤔
Target: Moldova_EBA_Yamnaya:I10206__BC_2700__Cov_21.09%
Distance: 2.2259% / 0.02225863 | R3P
62.6 Czechia_EBA_CordedWare.AG
34.2 Russia_Afanasievo.AG
3.2 Russia_Ob_LN_KuznetskAltai.SG
Asian (Russia_Ob_LN) source, probably due to low coverage
@EthanR
KST001 is most probably 3700BCE outlier originally from proto Mikhayilovka in South Ukraine. Lower Don region was pre-4400BCE Krivyanski/KHB type and post-4400BCE NV3003 type (Kriv + TTK). It can't be Yamnaya homeland. The "Don Yamnaya" can also be reverse modelled as Core Yamnaya + Core Serednii, which I suspect is potentially a stray eastern sister branch of proto Mikhayilovka that received little to no Remontnoye/ZO refugee admix
@Sam
J2b indeed has Southern (Shu-Sho, posr-ShuSho like Leylatepe (which gives Maykop)) orientation, rather than Western (J2a, J1, G2a, all clades dominant in Kartvelians, Abkhazo-Circassians, Nakh-Dags). Remontnoye/ZO is cline with and made of same two comps (Steppe_En + Azerbaijan_C) as Maykop, the difference being ZO is higher Steppe_En than Maikop. The new KMM Maykop sample also has J2b-L283 related clade. Everything points to Maykop and subsequently South Caucasian origin of L283.
@Anon_BGP
I remember you brought out Alkhan Tepe at 100 percent from the Aze_LN source, but in G25 in any case it shows a more southern admix
Target: Azerbaijan_Caucasus_lowlands_LateC.AG:ALX002.AG__BC_3710__Cov_33.74%
Distance: 2.8063% / 0.02806329
67.4 Georgia_Shomutepe-Shulaveri_N
18.8 Iran_Luristan_PPN.SG
13.8 Jordan_PPNB.AG
perhaps this is the same influence of "ubayd"
Do you know how the DeepAncestry coordinates from IllustrativeDNA were derived? They seem to be less accurate than G25
@Rob
What do you think
Target: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop.AG:OSS001.AG__BC_3632__Cov_37.00%
Distance: 2.6326% / 0.02632592 | R3P
60.8 Georgia_Shomutepe-Shulaveri_N:AO2001__BC_5814__Cov_51.14%
29.6 Russia_Stavropol_LateSteppe_Eneolithic_EBA_o:ZO1004__BC_3872__Cov_48.41%
9.6 Georgia_Kotias_Mesolithic.SG:KK1.SG__BC_7728__Cov_99.86%
interestingly, in late European farmers, WHG male chromosomes began to dominate (mostly I), which means there was no genocide of ANF over WHG 🤔
https://x.com/nrken19/status/1891867233510395972
@Kitty
Do you know how the DeepAncestry coordinates from IllustrativeDNA were derived? They seem to be less accurate than G25
Just in case this question is also for me, I don't know the answer to it, and I'm not involved with IllustrativeDNA or their test.
@ Mr. Funk
''What do you think....''
Try comparing OSS001, Zo1004, and other Majkop and north Caucasus Eneolithic individuals using an ancestral base of (1) Shulaveri, (2) CHG, (3) Khvalnysk (4) TTK, (5) Ukr N (6) Tripyllia
Target: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop.AG:OSS001.AG__BC_3632__Cov_37.00%
Are these G25 coords the same ones that were originally provided via Illustrative?
@Samsonian
Yes, this is the original G25 that I ran for Illustrative for a time.
@Rob
G25 provides some non-intuitive results at times when asking it to distinguish between European farmers and Aknashen:
https://i.gyazo.com/4994777132d618f12a6d64b011744a89.png
Individual labels are from my own sheet, the averages are from Moriopolous.
@Rob
https://i.ibb.co/xqQx52Dv/1739994829545.jpg
@EthanR
I used the William Anderson list because I like that everything is sorted by date and coverage. If necessary, you can remove the extra stuff.
@Davidski Any details on the new tool? Will it be PCA based? How different will it be to g25? thx.
@ Dragon Hermit - Ive seen what you do on forums- spreead nonsense about Balkans whilst boot-licking on the western R1b-M269 threads. Typical schiptard
Some more fun with the Moriopolous averages..
Distance to: Bulgaria_EBA_Yamnaya_o(I-L699).AG:Bul4.AG__BC_2945__Cov_32.81%
0.02913657 Ukraine_Eneolithic_Cernavoda_Kartal_(High_Steppe_Profile)_(n=4)
0.03865534 Albania_EBA_(n=1)
0.04084233 Serbia_Roman_Empire_Viminacium_Pirivoj_(Sarmatian-Mixed_Profile)_(n=1)
0.04096211 Hungary_IA_Scythian_Kesznyeten-Szeruskert_(High_Steppe_Profile)_(n=1)
0.04146557 Hungary_Late_Antiquity_Sarmatian_(Sarmatian-Mixed_Profile)_(n=23)
0.04192974 France_Late_Antiquity_Sarrebourg_(Sarmatian-Mixed_Profile)_(n=2)
0.04285583 Russia_Vladimir_Late_Medieval_(East_Asian-Mixed_Profile)_(n=1)
0.04412840 Hungary_Late_Antiquity_Hun_(Sarmatian-Mixed_Profile)_(n=3)
0.04425862 Ukraine_Eneolithic_Usatove_Revova_(n=1)
0.04439563 Serbia_Late_Antiquity-Early_Medieval_Hun-Avar_Kormadin_(Sarmatian-Mixed_Profile)_(n=1)
@EthanR similar mixtures
Hmm
Target: Bulgaria_EBA_Yamnaya_o.AG:Bul4.AG__BC_2945__Cov_32.81%
Distance: 1.6866% / 0.01686627 | R3P
42.2 Russia_Afanasievo.AG
31.6 Sweden_Fralsegarden_N.SG
26.2 Armenia_Areni1_Chalcolithic.AG
Target: Bulgaria_EBA_Yamnaya_o.AG:Bul4.AG__BC_2945__Cov_32.81%
Distance: 1.2604% / 0.01260393 | R4P
35.8 Russia_Afanasievo.AG
28.6 Germany_EN_LBK.AG
18.0 Armenia_Areni1_Chalcolithic.AG
17.6 Ukraine_Molyukhіv-Bugor_N
🤔So, I’m thinking about the situation that’s currently unfolding around Ukraine, and it seems to me that Russia either paid Trump a huge amount of money or promised him some percentage of oil revenues and other raw materials, both personally to Trump and to America, if Trump agrees to a deal where Ukraine hands over part of its territory to Russia, and in return, all sanctions on Russia’s export of raw materials are lifted
Otherwise, I don’t understand why Trump’s team is promoting clearly pro-Russian candidates in Europe, why Trump’s team is saying about Zelensky that he’s a dictator, but not saying anything about Putin? Why is there clear, active propaganda and lies on Twitter from all high-ranking American figures against Ukraine?
Now I understand how Trump is going to make America great again—at the expense of Russia’s natural resources. And Putin, in turn, will be able to sell the idea to his ‘deep nation’ that Russia won this war
How I respect Mr Davidski for the fact that he thinks correctly, sees everything in advance, for the fact that he is fair and for the bunch of genetic culators that he came up with.
Trump to matoł i ruska kurwa.
Trump is a senile piece of shit. Him and Russia can go and fornicate.
Europe is about to send Ukraine 20 billion euros worth of weapons.
Ukraine will win this with or without the dumbass Americans.
And how much of that will reach regular, suffering Ukrainians ? None
Most of it will go to weapons manufacturing, the rest is laundered by Zelenski & Co., and the rest to
“EU” ministers ( holding “numerous meetings” and move imaginary armies like during Hitler’s final days) who are far cheaper but still grossly overpaid.
These of course are the same ministers are destroying western & northern Europe, but now we are to expect to believe that they know what’s best for Eastern Europe
@Rob
Regular suffering Ukrainians, as well as regular Poles watching next door, very much approve of that 20 bullion euros being used for ammo and weapons.
@Rob
In the situation Ukraine is in, stealing money allocated for weapons (although it’s a fake claim that Ukrainians are selling weapons to drug cartels or others) is a war crime, and such people are unlikely to remain free or even stay alive. At the beginning of the war, Ukrainians massively caught looters, tied them to poles with their pants down, and similar cases of looting almost completely stopped in the future. Not a single Ukrainian soldier or general would embezzle money allocated for weapons, as that would be tantamount to a death sentence for both themselves and Ukraine as a whole
@Rob
So Ukraine has completely won this war, but the new administration led by Trump doesn’t want the Ukrainians to come out victorious. As I wrote above, they likely have some sort of agreement with Putin, probably about the complete disarmament of Russia’s nuclear weapons. Putin is in a position where he could be killed—by his own people or by outsiders. He’s gotten on a lot of people’s nerves. I’m in Dagestan, and inflation here is breaking all records. Many products have gone up in price by three times or more. As someone living here, I should know better than you, who’s enjoying life in Australia. This isn’t about Ukraine or Zelensky. It’s all about nuclear weapons—that’s the real issue. Otherwise, Russia would have been wiped out on the very first day of the war.
One interesting thing about Sredni Stog is that there isn't much of a correlation between Volga-Steppe ancestry and Aknashen.
If anything, it looks like Aknashen more or less linearly increases with time -although I'd be tentative about this observation, given the sample size, comparing different sites and potentially differing carbon dating methodology (although most of them should be from the same research team).
https://i.gyazo.com/c41771bc0a171b64aaf61c01730a47dc.png
@ Davidski. There is no comparison between Trump & your man Biden, and Trump's team (Vance, Gubbard, Hesgeth, RFK, Vivek) look optimistic. Looking past Trump's verbal diarrhoea, he knows what he's doing. He serves only his own interests and that of USA. But they've obviously cut a deal which has deemed the EU not even relevant, also revolving arond the Middle East theatre (Syria). As outlined when you first blogged about this, the realist US commentators warned this was a bad idea and won't end well, because this war was unecessary, NATO was overreaching and wont be able to back it up. But for some reason, random Jos thought they understand realities more than blue-blooded experts like Mersheimer. EU politicians will keep up their rhetoric to save face, but at least Duda reads the writing on the wall.
Obviously, it is morally wrong for powers to carve up minerals and land, but we all know that politics isn't a moral field, and this is just a cold assessment.
@Rob
Nice rabbit hole you've gotten yourself into.
But by the time Trump, Musk and co are finished taking America apart, no one in the West will ever want anything to do with these sorts of freaks.
@Rob
What do you think is behind Trump's insistence on stopping the war? I don't believe that Trump really cares how many Russians or Ukrainians died there. Are there problems in the US economy that prevent hundreds of billions of dollars from being allocated annually to continue the war, or an attempt to hinder Russia's cooperation with China?
@ Davidski - what took the west apart were the GFC, plandemic, etc
It’s already done
@ Mr Funk
Got you- you’re an expert on world affairs because you live in Dagestan and haven’t yet figured out how to use G25 calculators
@ Davidski
The west was taken apart by the GFC and Plandemic.
I wish we had that A-team in Australia too
@Vladimir
Trump to ruska kurwa.
@Rob yes I am like that 🤨😌😎🤜🤜🤜✊
I wonder what's going on in Rob's head if he comes to such fantastic conclusions that are not supported by any facts.
@Mr Funk
You should listen to this if you're on Russia's side in this conflict. One of my favourites
https://youtu.be/DHCzaiJEoEY
@Vladimir I think you're trolling. If you live in Russia now, if I'm not mistaken, you're Vlad ms, and you've been corresponding with me on Telegram, if you live in Russia now, then you know perfectly well that right now Russians can't be forced to fight even under duress. The border is literally not moving anywhere, no new territories can be captured. And you're saying something about Poland. Russians literally don't see any reason to go to Poland. I see all these sentiments. I'm a social psychologist, did you know that? If you didn't know that, then I didn't know that either. It turns out I'm a social psychologist.
@Anon_BGP
I am on the side of justice. Russia does not behave fairly. Never. Their DNA contains an encrypted imperial code that must be weeded out.
@Gabru
What I am saying can only be understood by countries that are Russia's immediate neighbors, those that were part of a larger empire (Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, the countries of Central Asia, the Baltics, Chechnya), as well as those that suffered from Russian imperialism long before the USSR - Poland, etc. They are all well aware of what Russia is. One here is defending Russia, living in Australia, another in India, a third, being ethnically Russian, is defending it.
I have already warned here what will happen if Trump wins the election. There are no American interests in how he behaves. These are pure Russian interests. I can't imagine if Putin would have done anything differently in Trump's place. Trump and Musk are Russian people, i.e. Russian and American oligarchs are on the same side. Russia has conquered America from within. Now they are working on the deconstruction of America from the inside, but also of the overall world order. I can't believe America has shown itself to be so vulnerable.
Europe is currently weak and leaderless.
In total, 89,000 square kilometers of Ukraine have been occupied by Russia since 2022. For example, the area of Dagestan is 50,000 square kilometers. The area of Lithuania is 65,000 square kilometers. The area of Estonia is 45,000 square kilometers. Such things.
Damn, this is Kanye's official telegram, he's got some problems with his head
https://t.me/yewestmusic
@ Vlad
Trump is a business man and it’s a simple corporate pro/ con analysis, and the project is no longer viable
The project was to fragment Russia, a continuation of the cold war, and take resources by Biden supported firms. This is widely acknowledged in the west by people in the know.
The new admin in US is essentially acknowledging that their proxy war lost and culpability and the establishment of a neo-Westfalian order. Maybe they have other fish to focus on (China, Iran) but in terms of distancing China - Russian friendship, the ship has sailed. The world has also been observing the conduct of the west (“rules based order”, weaponisation of the monetary system, outright theft by the E.U). But US will gain concessions in return- Syria and allowing to mine some minerals Ukraine, if they exist.
@Vladimir
The front hasn't moved significantly since Ukraine liberated 50% of the land captured by Russia at start of the invasion.
The only thing that is happening quickly for Russia is the destruction of its economy.
@Rob
Trump is a moron who is fast bankrupting the US economy just like he bankrupted himself six times.
There are strong indications that he's been working for Russia since the 1980s, but even is that's not true, then he's acting like he's taking orders from the Russians and Chinese to tank the American economy.
@Vladimir
89,000 square kilometers. and -1,000,000 lives on both sides. cool, it was worth it. now you can mentally calculate how many deaths there will be if, hypothetically, Russian troops reach the borders of Poland. it seems to me that all of Russia will not be enough.
@Rob
Logically, I agree.
@Davidski
The last time Ukraine liberated at least one square meter was in October 2022
@Mr Funk
Fantastic loss figures. I think the total losses are about 100,000 people, also a lot, but not millions
I ran Krivyanski again, seemingly hard to model, but Corded Ware ran as 34% GAC + 50% Sredny_core + 16% Remontnoye. The non-GAC component is basically 75% Sredny + 25% Remont, while CoreYamnaya seems to be 66% Sredny + 33% Remont. I'm thinking that West Sredny was proto-CW while the bulk of Sredny (South, Central, East) transitioned into Mykhailovka. Late Sredny received Remontnoye admix (25% and 33%). West Sredny probably had R1a-M417 (inherited from Dnieper_N?), M269>L51 (inherited from Don_N?) while East Sredny had M269>Z2103 (inherited from Don_N?), I-L699 (inherited from Don_N?). It explains splitting of Balkanic and Indo-Celtic nodes ca. 3400BCE w/ haplogroups and also that CW is sibling of Yamnaya
@Vladimir
Nice fantasy you're living in there. Here's some reality for a change.
https://x.com/wartranslated/status/1893588238515798365
Everyone seems to be an expert in geopolitics and no one seems to care about the Ukrainians. They have had the balls to defend their homeland and they have to keep resisting, they owe it to those who have died. Putin?, Trump? the Chinese? screw them all, with all these clowns in power this will end in another world war.
Empty demagoguery. The facts suggest otherwise.
By the way, from the point of view of common sense, it may be good that what the author of the post dreamed of did not happen. What does the author mean by saying that the Russian population has been "sleeping" for 30 years? And I will answer you. He condemns the consumer society that has developed in Russia. What does he regret? The fact that this consumer society could not even be destroyed by war and it did not turn into an ideological society, the society failed to indoctrinate ideology and turn it into a Soviet or Nazi society. Yes it is. I don't think that's a bad thing. But all this has no effect on the actual results of the military company.
@Rob
you haven't noticed all the really smart thinking people with high IQ choose the side of Ukraine, who are either inside Russia, or those who live in America and in European countries.
people like David or ph2ter, because no one would dare call them incompetent.
the time when strongmen win, who measure who has the biggest army, rocket or penis - is over, now is the time of such wars when those who have the best programmers, politicians, economists, physicists, scientists win.
so you're out of luck, as always, nothing out of the ordinary, you're used to it
@CordedSlav
Get off the crack and stop posting Russian propaganda here.
@Rob
Climate changes are real and are caused by human activities.
We are putting the planet in danger for the profit of the oligarchs at the expense of our children. Musk thinks he will save himself and his oligarchs by going to Mars. What a clown.
My grandfathers were in World War I if you are curious. I would say more about this your comment but you removed it.
@ph2ter
Global warming does indeed exist, temperatures are rising, the concentration of CO2, methane and other greenhouse gases is also rising, but this is not critical to panic and fly to Mars because of this. There were periods on Earth when it was much warmer. On average, one and a half to two degrees do not solve anything. In the end, the same Musk can spray reflective aerosol particles around the Earth, it would be much cheaper than running away to Mars and there are enough problems on Earth besides global warming. Above I called you a person with a high IQ, but I will have to take my words back 😄
despite the fact that you are the creator of thermal genetic maps, etc.
@ ph2ter
At least Elon is contributing to society and will be around for a few years more.
Your boy Zelenskyy on the other hand, is a parasite and he will be gone soon
Elon won't be around for long. He's making too much trouble and too many enemies.
Zelensky survived the first year of the Russian invasion, so he'll survive anything now.
Once the Russian economy collapses, which should happen within a year, the world will improve significantly.
The EU impose massive sanctions on Russia, its military, and its economy, as well as to isolate Russia internationally, in spite of their negative effects on Europe’s economy. Since the start of Russia’s illegal war, the EU have made available close to $145 billion in financial, military, humanitarian, and refugee assistance.
After Trump's betrayal, Zelenski should resign and immediately call for elections, if he has enough support, the European Union will continue to support Ukraine until the pre-invasion borders are restored.
Fuck NATO too, the Americans are not to be trusted, it's time to create a European army. Let's see what happens today in Germany.Trump and Musk should seek political asylum in Russia, so they would understand the advantages of living in the Soviet paradise.
@Rob
What has been happening in Russia for some time and what is currently being attempted in America is about Orwell's 1984.
You stand on the totalitarian oligarchic side. Musk is a deranged maniac. Now he is hated by everyone except his MAGA sect and Russia.
@ Davidski
''Get off the crack and stop posting Russian propaganda here.''
Look it up, it's a fact - Zelenskyy transitioned from TV president to 'real life president' in Ukraine. All enginerred by Kolomoyskyi. Orwelian
@ Gaska
'Everyone seems to be an expert in geopolitics and no one seems to care about the Ukrainians.'
Unfortunately, it's a dystopian society. A country led by sick individuals who remind me of Israelis. They celebrated infront of their burning citizens in Odessa, posing in front for pictures, and shelled the Donbass pretty much every morning just for psychological torture. Now they play the victim and call for nuclear war, and every left-wing nutjob supports this.
@Rob
Russia will lose this war, if not this year then next, because it's an incompetent country at every level, with no redeeming features whatsoever.
Trump's America is also a circus run by a bunch of clowns which won't be able to last long. It's just not practical for anyone.
Ukraine stands strong, with a smart leader and support from most of Europe. That'll be enough for it to survive while Russia descends into chaos.
Speaking telepathically with my paternal ancestors just now, they are telling me climate change has been a big problem ever since the WHGs sank Doggerland. If only they had a carbon tax and retarded Swedish girl the horror could have been averted.
@ ph2ter
''You stand on the totalitarian oligarchic side. Musk is a deranged maniac. Now he is hated by everyone except his MAGA sect and Russia.''
Whatever you reckon. I'm not particularly concerned about MAGA, Tesla, etc. But they look far less deranged than Biden, Harris, etc
@ Davidski
If you think so.
@ Gaska Yes, I forgot about Finland. It also knows what the USSR/Russia is.
I'm telling you, you need to be a neighbor of Russia, and know the history of your people and Russia/USSR, the relationship with them, in order to understand that Russia is cancer
for example, look at how independent Finland lives - it is rich, prosperous with a high GDP per capita, it is economically successfully developed, would this have happened if it had been part of Russia? no, it was another poor region, something similar to the Komi and Murmansk region. But Russia occupied part of Finland's territory. It needs territories only to develop and extract natural resources and destroy the environment. They do not look at how the population lives.
@ Romulus
It's also because those silly WHGs didn't put an (insert current fad) Filter on their social media profiles
@ Mr Funk
I do feel sorry for Z. USA promised $300 billion, delivered $150, now Trump is asking for $500 back
@ Corded
Nothing wrong with 'the Left', as in the real principles of liberalism and modest aspects of socialism, such as education, welfare and maintaining national control of resources rather than handing them over to billionaries and oligarchs. I just don't think there are any real modest socialists out there, except for Bernie perhaps
Listen to this speech in the European Parliament
https://youtu.be/VjcMoDFU1xg
America is fast losing its power and relevance in the world, but especially in Europe.
If Trump and Musk remain in the White House for another year, it'll take a decade to fix everything that they've broken.
Europe is already moving on.
@ Anon
''I ran Krivyanski again, seemingly hard to model'
Couldnt get anything after 12 attempts for Kriv_EN
@ EthanR
''One interesting thing about Sredni Stog is that there isn't much of a correlation between Volga-Steppe ancestry and Aknashen.''
What do you think that signifies ?
@Rob
I'm not sure.
I guess one interpretation would be that a lot of the south caucasian ancestry comes from exogamy over time as opposed to it coming suddenly via some hypothetical 75% Volga, 25% Aknashen population.
Russia has always been and will be a raw materials appendage, a gas station country. So I was right when you said about the resource deal between Trump and Putin.
https://x.com/DC_Draino/status/1894146556028133427
The USA has also lost, at least for the time being.
Under Trump/Musk it's really in some deep shit.
It's kind of weird how Americans aren't doing anything about it - like rabbits caught in headlights on the highway.
what nonsense did I write, I meant that I wrote about the deal between Trump and putin about raw materials, because Russia controls huge territories, it is more profitable for the USA to deal with such a weakling outcast like putin than with some strong leader
and I wrote - Russia and Ukraine lost, the USA won
Sorry for the mistakes
I also heard out of the corner of my ear that Russia will be deprived of nuclear weapons, I don’t know if it’s true or not, but it sounds optimistic
I think that’s a pretty damn good appraisal of the current situation. Project Russia appears to be playing out in real time and it looks like Russia has, in part, captured the United States of America.
Both Musk and Trump openly fantasize about Civil War here. Trump even has a monument commemorating a Civil War battle on one of his golf courses in Virginia. However, the battle is completely fabricated and never happened. Crazy shit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_River_of_Blood#:~:text=The%20River%20of%20Blood%20is,publicly%20disclosed%20event%20involving%20casualties.
People who want the United States to fail will always support Trump. He has been very open about destroying the “deep state” and stating that the enemy is within the country, not outside. This is consistent with Project Russia.
Project Russia:
https://washingtonspectator.org/project-russia-reveals-putins-playbook/
@ EthanR
And what do you model Berezhnovka as with G25 ?
@Rob
It's a weird sample, atleast on 1240K. In HO I was able to model it before proximally. Try w/ KHB003 it's same profile as Krivyanski
@Rob
It's basically Piedmont Steppe without any obvious south Caucasian ancestry.
What I'm talking about
https://x.com/Daractenus/status/1894329574202151339
Yep, Russia is the 8th wonder of the world, in all the wrong ways.
And that's fine, as long as Russia stays in Russia.
@Davidski ☺️👍
According to Financial Times, Ukraine agrees minerals deal with the United States.
https://www.ft.com/content/1890d104-1395-4393-a71d-d299aed448e6
where can I find information about the burial of the Brezhnevka? were they cattle breeders? and if they did not have a southern Caucasian mixture and they were cattle breeders, then they come from the steppe Eneolithic
maybe you guys are right Trump was compromised by his slavic wives who were in fact KGB agents. He then brainwashed most of the USA into voting him under the false premise of ending wars, but he just really wanted to open new Hotels in Ukraine.
''American'' Sam you're right - Yellen, Schumer, Biden and Pelosi (the establishment who has indebted regular Americans into trillions of dollars debt by siphoning off money for their war industry) are far better for USA than the new fresh, young, talented traitors.
Well boys, get in formation and follow Mette Frederiksen. I am a she-viking, hear me roar !
Frederiksen has absolutely no say in how Poland is run.
New paper on Davidski's ancestors just dropped:
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2418485122
Most of the Carpathian-Basin individuals (shown in blue) from the late 4th to the 6th century do not show any signs of East/Central Asian genetic admixture, carrying only European ancestries (Fig. 2A). Between these contexts 19 individuals show varying amounts of East Asian admixture. Among these, the individuals TGH058, TGH010, TGH015, TGH068, and TGB023 from poorly furnished 5th to 6th century graves within the site of Tiszagyenda have the highest amounts of Eastern Eurasian ancestry.
TGH058 - N/A
TGH010 - R1(R-M306,R-M173)
TGH015 - N/A
TGH068 - N/A
TGB023 - R1a1a1b2a(R-Z94)
YOU.
ARE.
AZN.
(relative to me)
I don't belong to R-Z94 and I don't have any East Asian admix.
R-Z94 is the Indo-Iranian/Turkic/Ashkenazi marker you moron.
Nothing to do with West Slavs.
and how did it get to the Ashkenazi, through the Khazars? or did it get to Palestine/Levant from Iran?
Ashkenazi R-Z94 is probably overwhelmingly from Indo-Iranian sources in the Middle East, but some of it might be from minor Turkic admixture north of the Black Sea.
What is everybody's opinion on Slavic ethnogenesis? It seems more complicated than the origins of other ethnolinguistic groups
If
An early Italo-Celtic node split in early phase Urnfield and proto-Celtic was spoken in the Hallstatt culture and proto-Italic in Proto-Villanovan
Indo-Iranian being mediated through Sintastha ---> Andronovo
Proto-Germanic from the Nordic bronze age
Anatolian from early Sredny Stog offshoots that took the route through the Balkans into Anatolia
Et cetera et cetera
All hold true with support in linguistics and archaeology and ancient dna then what would a similar model for the earliest split of Balto-Slavic and the emergence of Slavs look like? Did the linguistic forefathers of the Slavs come from somewhere within the Trzciniec culture? Or elsewhere?
All answers appreciated
@Gaisgeach
Yes, Balto-Slavs are from Trzciniec, with Slavs just being the most southerly branch that had more contacts with other peoples, like Germanics.
Not overly complicated IMO.
In summary, Russia wants power and influence, but in many parts of the world Russian influence is associated with poverty and misery.
As Slavs only expanded after 500AD, Studies would need to describe the relevant proximate phenomenology (eg geographic reshuffling of peoples after arrival of Avars and final shift of Germanics) am
I also have these thoughts—this is just my thinking—that Elon and Trump want to stir up a kind of digital communism in the USA. They want to be the first in this. To reformat U.S. politics. All these letters about government reports—it all feels very reminiscent of communism. It’s clear that no one’s going to read them; it’ll all just get uploaded into a neural network.
@Rob
Balto-Slavs came from Trzciniec.
The main Slavic expansion happened much later.
America better wake the fuck up and get rid of Trump and Musk, or it'll turn into a third world country within a year.
@ Radiosource - any govt will try to increase their sphere of influences & extraction, whilst career politicians line their pockets. Look what the EU has been doing in Romania, Hungary & Slovakia. Anyone not playing ball immediately gets called a 'Russian puppet' and risks arrest or assassination.
@ Davidski
''Balto-Slavs came from Trzciniec.
The main Slavic expansion happened much later.. The main Slavic expansion happened much later.''
Are you optimistic of Gretzinger et al (some apparent studies coming through) achieving solid conclusions ?
interesting post about Caucasians, here the author also suggests that the homeland of NC languages is connected with eastern Anatolia, and therefore related to the pre-Indo-European languages of Europe - Thracian Etruscan Basque etc.
https://x.com/glitchpoke/status/1894905238412275842?s=19
@Rob
Are you optimistic of Gretzinger et al (some apparent studies coming through) achieving solid conclusions ?
I don't care. I'm just waiting for the samples.
@Gaisgeach
It's Middle Dnieper culture - closely related to Fatyanovo and Baltic Fatyanovo, PERHAPS Trzciniec is derived from MD but I've not seen Trz samples but I don't think PBS was that western
NC is CHG lang., just as like your Kartvelian buddy, maybe on macro level Vasconic, Etruscoid, Paleo-Corso-Sardinian, Pre-Balkanic can be connected to EEF and maybe Hatto-Kaskian, Hurro-Urartian, Burushaskic, so-called Agricultural X to Cayonu, that thread doesn't offer any ling. evidence
@Anon_BGP
Trzciniec is derived from Mierzanowice/Strzyżów/Iwno cultures not Middle Dnieper.
😨
How dare you not post my hilarious comments. I am your patriarch, the true son of Перун!
EEF come from western-central Anatolia (although they have some extra Iran_N over Pinarbasi). North Caucasian groups have a very different agricultural base, mostly Iran shifted. Plus they have very different adstrates, WHG vs CHG. I don't think there is much genetic basis to any Etruscan / Basque - Caucasian affinity on close inspection.
But credible linguists, such as P Schriver have made the case for Hatto-Minoan affinities. This has tangible genetic support.
asked chat gpity about hunter gatherers of Dagestan of the Mesolithic era, with which hunter gatherers they find parallels and similar cultures:
The hunter-gatherers who inhabited the Dagestan region during the Mesolithic and Neolithic periods (around 10,000–6000 BC) had cultural connections with several groups from the Caucasus, Eastern Europe, and the Near East.
Cultural Parallels
Caucasian and Northern Near Eastern Hunter-Gatherers
Kül Tepe culture (Azerbaijan, 8000–6000 BC) – an early Neolithic culture of the South Caucasus, likely interacting with hunter-gatherer groups in Dagestan.
Shulaveri-Shomu culture (Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, 6000–5000 BC) – an early farming culture but possibly with remnants of a hunter-gatherer lifestyle.
Eastern European Hunter-Gatherers (EHG)
Groups living in what is now southern Russia and Ukraine, such as steppe hunter-gatherers of the Caspian region, may have had genetic and cultural ties to early populations in Dagestan.
Zagros Hunter-Gatherers (Zagros HG)
Inhabited what is now Iran and Iraq.
Genetically linked to the early Neolithic farmers of the Near East.
Dagestan may have served as a transition zone between them and the Eastern European hunter-gatherers.
Migration Routes and Interactions
The hunter-gatherers of Dagestan were likely part of early contact networks between the Eurasian steppe and the Near East.
The region acted as a bridge between the steppe cultures and early farming traditions of the Near East.
From 5000–4000 BC, early farmers began appearing in Dagestan, connected to the Shulaveri-Shomu culture and other Neolithic traditions of the Caucasus.
From a genetic perspective, the population of Dagestan at that time was likely a mixture of local Caucasian hunter-gatherers, Eastern European hunter-gatherers (EHG), and Zagros hunter-gatherer (Zagros HG) components.
that is, the neural network directly hints that here were the first contacts of local chg, as well as ehg, and Zagros hunters
Mierzanowice is 2300BCE, we are talking about CWC subculture that starts ~ 2900BCE and can be PBS.
SGC - PG
CECW - PItC
MD - PBS
Fatyanovo - PIIr
@Funk
Velikent (p-Nakh-Dag) is directly derived from Late Maikop (Novosvobodnaya) aka Meshoko (p-North-Caucasian) + Core Maikop
@ Davidski
Back on Slavs etc. it seems based on the PCA I posted above it is still Baltic LBA specifically which seems to feed into proto-Slavic rather than Trziniec, that is the Sosnica culture variant (eastern cousin).
@ Anon
I’ve mentioned this before, but I suspect that MDC is not pro Slavic. It’s probably a dead end group . Mixed between Fatyanovo & Catacomb
Iosif also does not deny himself the pleasure of chatting on various archeo-historical topics with the gipity chat
https://x.com/iosif_lazaridis/status/1895490227902587094
After the embarrassing spectacle at the White House, I can only imagine what the Ukrainians might feel after three years of suffering.
Well, at least we know that Europe is on its own to help Ukraine, it is time to put these American bullies where they deserve. I hope the Canadians and Australians do not join this miserable U.S. administration.
@ Gaska
''After the embarrassing spectacle at the White House, I can only imagine what the Ukrainians might feel after three years of suffering.''
Z is a hobo who killedmillions of Ukranians.
You can have him in Basque country, because east-central Europeans (apart from obedient Poles) hate him
@CordedSlav/Rob
Don't forget to log out next time you want to use a sock puppet.
This is a low point in American history.
Kinda weird to be watching it live like this.
Trump and Vance ambushed Zelensky to force him to resign. The two bullies harassed a third. They will now lift the sanctions and I wouldn't be surprised if they start arming Russia instead of Ukraine.
Poor Davidski. Stick to calculators and love poetry to Lazaridis rather than simping and failed predicting. And for your info, I'm not a 'corded slav'.
Just going to plonk this here.
https://x.com/PapiTrumpo/status/1895562503230550018?t=zyQ85GKq-qo4oayMguXDqw&s=19
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