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Sunday, May 3, 2020

Understanding the Eneolithic steppe


Archeologist David Anthony has teamed up with Harvard's David Reich Lab to work on a paper about the Eneolithic period on the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

A couple of other labs are also preparing papers on similar topics, and they've already sequenced and analyzed many of their ancient samples (for instance, see here). However, I don't have a clue when these papers will be published. My guess is that we'll have to wait a year or so.

Needless to say, knowing what happened on the Pontic-Caspian (PC) steppe and surrounds during the Eneolithic is crucial to understanding the origins of the present-day European gene pool. It's also likely to be highly relevant to the debate about the location of the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) homeland.

In this blog post I'll explain what I've learned about the Eneolithic peoples of the PC steppe based on already published data.

If we ignore Steppe Maykop samples, the currently available Eneolithic individuals from the eastern part of the PC steppe form an essentially perfect cline in my Principal Component Analysis (PCA) of ancient West Eurasian genetic variation.

The cline runs from the Mesolithic hunter-fishers of the Eastern European forest zone to those of the Eneolithic sites of Progress 2 and Vonyuchka in the North Caucasus foothills. Let's call this the Khvalynsk cline, because three of the samples are from a burial site in the Volga River valley associated with the Khvalynsk culture. The relevant datasheet is available here.


The reason that these samples form the cline is because they carry different ratios of admixture related to Caucasus hunter-gatherers (CHG) from what is now Georgia. Moreover, the Khvalynsk individuals appear to be relatively recent mixtures between sources rich and poor in this type of ancestry.

I also marked a Maykop cline on the plot. This cline is made up of individuals associated with the Maykop and Steppe Maykop cultures from the Caucasus Mountains and nearby parts of the PC steppe, respectively. The Maykop culture is dated to the Early Bronze Age (EBA) period, but the PC steppe was still part of the Eneolithic world at the time.

The Maykop cline is more complicated than the Khvalynsk cline, because some of the Maykop individuals carry genetic components that the others lack. These genetic components are closely related to the aforementioned CHG, as well as Anatolian Neolithic farmers (ANF) and Western Siberian hunter-gatherers (WSHG).

Note that the two clines intersect, but this isn't because any of the Khvalynsk cline samples harbor Maykop-related ancestry. It's largely because the Steppe Maykop individuals carry high levels of Vonyuchka-related ancestry.

So unless we're dealing here with a remarkable string of coincidences, then the Vonyuchka hunter-fisher must be a decent proxy for the people who spread significant levels of CHG-related ancestry north of the Caucasus.

The important question, therefore, is where and when exactly did this population form? And it's a question that the authors of the aforementioned upcoming papers should be aiming to answer comprehensively.


In my view, it was the result of interactions between the hunter-fishers of the North Caucasus and the southernmost parts of the PC steppe during the Neolithic period, perhaps around 6,000 BCE, just before significant ANF-related ancestry spread across the Caucasus during the Eneolithic. That's because the Progress 2/Vonyuchka samples lack ANF-related ancestry, or at least an obvious signal of it, and are dated to ~4,200 BCE. And when I say Neolithic in this context, I don't mean the Near Eastern type of Neolithic with well developed farming, but rather the local type of Neolithic still based on hunting and fishing.

Now, obviously, the people of the Corded Ware and Yamnaya cultures were the children of the Eneolithic PC steppe. So you might be wondering how they fit into all of this. I still don't know, and apparently neither do the scientists at Harvard (see here). However, I'd say that the Maykop cline isn't relevant to this question. The Khvalynsk cline might be relevant, but even if it is, this doesn't necessarily mean that the Yamnaya people are by and large derived from the Khvalynsk people.

Here's the same PCA plot as above, but this time with early Corded Ware and Yamnaya samples also highlighted. Note that, apart from a few outliers, they form a rather tight cluster that is shifted slightly away from the Khvalynsk cline, but probably not in the direction of the Maykop cline.


A couple of the Yamnaya outliers are shifted towards the "eastern" end of the Khvalynsk cline, and thus near the Progress 2/Vonyuchka samples. This isn't surprising because these Yamnaya individuals are from burial sites close to the North Caucasus and probably harbor significant levels of local ancestry.

The most extreme Yamnaya outlier, from a site in what is now Ukraine, is clearly shifted towards the Maykop cline, and even towards the Caucasus Maykop cluster. However, this is a female with no grave goods and she may have been a foreign bride or captive, possibly from a late Maykop settlement. It's also possible that her 3095-2915 calBCE dating is wrong.

I'm pretty sure that when we find out why the Yamnaya cluster is so deliberately shifted away from the Khvalynsk cline, we'll also discover how the early Corded Ware and Yamnaya populations formed. For now, I strongly suspect that this has something to do with gene flow from the western edge of the PC steppe and the ethnogenesis of the Sredny Stog culture, which was located just west of the Khvalynsk culture.

By and large, the PC steppe is still seen by historical linguists and archeologists as the most sensible place to put the PIE homeland.

However, a theory that the PIE homeland was located somewhere south of the Caucasus, and that instead the PC steppe was the late or nuclear PIE dispersal point, has gained popularity in recent years, largely thanks to the apparent lack of PC steppe ancestry in a handful of samples from Hittite era Anatolia. In this scheme, the Maykop culture took PIE into Eastern Europe and the Yamnaya culture subsequently spread late/nuclear PIE from the PC steppe, while Proto-Anatolian, the ancestor of Hittite, was introduced into Anatolia from the east along with Maykop-related ancestry.

This is possible, in the sense that almost anything is possible, but it doesn't strike me as the most parsimonious interpretation of the facts.

Even before ancient DNA, it was known that the Maykop culture colonized parts of the PC steppe, at least for a short time, and probably had contacts with the Yamnaya people and/or their antecedents. But it was generally seen as the vector for Caucasian and other non-Indo-European influences in PIE.

Moreover, not only were the Maykop and Yamnaya populations of fundamentally different genetic origins, but apparently the Yamnaya people didn't absorb any perceptible Maykop ancestry as they expanded into the North Caucasus region at the tail end of the Maykop period.

That's really difficult to explain if we assume that these groups were close linguistic relatives, and much easier to reconcile with the assumption that they were derived from different worlds culturally and linguistically.


Another important question is what happened to the Steppe Maykop people, because right now it looks like they vanished almost without a trace, essentially as if they were pushed out or even erased by the Yamnaya expansion. If they were indeed pushed out or erased, then it's likely that their language was as well.

As for the lack of PC steppe ancestry in Hittite era Anatolians, I honestly can't see this is as a significant obstacle to a PIE homeland on the steppe, especially if we consider that the most widely accepted Indo-European phylogenies show the Anatolian family as the most basal node.

In the opinion of the vast majority of experts, it's the most basal node because the Proto-Anatolian speakers were the first to leave the PIE homeland. And if they were indeed the first to leave the homeland, then why should we expect their descendants to harbor significant ancestry from the homeland? In my view, such an assumption would contradict the most widely accepted Indo-European phylogenies.

See also...

The Caucasus is a semipermeable barrier to gene flow

445 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 400 of 445   Newer›   Newest»
Samuel Andrews said...

@Davidski,

CHG seems to be a pretty good fit for Yamnaya's southern ancestry. But is obviously not the direct ancestor of Yamnaya. Whoever Yamnaya's exact southern ancestor is, it's got to be really similar to CHG. We'll have to give them same name like how we ca give Irongate and Loschbour the same name WHG.

Davidski said...

@gamerz_J

Not with great enough precision to be able to claim that there was a migration from some specific place, or even a migration from a certain direction.

vAsiSTha said...

"It's likely that there were all sorts of different CHG-related populations living in and around the Caucasus from the Mesolithic to the Eneolithic, some with quite different ratios of more ancient components.

So using CHG, Neolithic Zagros farmers, Eneolithic Central Asian farmers, and so on as fixed points and constantly referring to them as evidences of migrations specifically from here or there is really dumb."

For an unknown Chg like pop which has more allele sharing with Iran_N to exist north of caucasus is highly unnatural. I would have accepted the answer if the location was to south or east of the Kotias location.

Matt said...

@gamerzj, I would add to that, while it's true that it's correct there *could* have populations that split from CHG and this is why CHG+EHG may not fit exactly, in some setups, I would lean on it being simpler that there would be low level and totally plausible flow from populations we know about, than for us to multiply ghost populations which may never be evidenced (and for which the only evidence is still quite untested models like momi2, or even qpGraph).

Davidski said...

Meh, makes no difference.

Already during the so called Neolithic, more than 5,000 BCE, there was a pop pretty much like Yamnaya on the steppe as far north as Saratov.

Samuel Andrews said...

You say that as if you have proof of a Neolithic Yamnaya-like population.

Davidski said...

I did say it like that, and it was for a good reason.

vAsiSTha said...

Unlike what davidski says, I0434 is not = yamnaya ancestry, they are quite different. One can just plot PCA and check for themselves. Steppe_eneolithic samples are closer or as close to yamnaya as I0434.

There is another possibility here.

this 5000bce I0434 khvalynsk_o sample is shifted towards Iran+WSHG from the other 2 khvalynsk_en samples I0433 and I0122. Clearly the ancestry of the latter cannot be derived from the former, but the other way round is likely. So we can deduce that khvalynsk_en type ancestry existed prior to 5000bce.

It is possible that the excess of Iran+WSHG in steppe eneolithic came from I0434 type ancestry rather than the south which was more or less CHG in the 6th and 5th mill bce.

Compare
1. Bad model with Khvalynsk_EN
Target Distance GEO_CHG RUS_Khvalynsk_En
RUS_Progress_En:PG2001 0.04460095 40.6 59.4
RUS_Progress_En:PG2004 0.04844402 30.2 69.8
Average 0.04652249 35.4 64.6

2. Better model with Khvalynsk_o I0434
Target Distance GEO_CHG RUS_Khvalynsk_I0434
RUS_Progress_En:PG2001 0.02853312 26.4 73.6
RUS_Progress_En:PG2004 0.02995070 15.4 84.6
Average 0.02924191 20.9 79.1

Davidski said...

I wasn't referring to I0434. There are samples like that further west, probably even older, and more relevant to Yamnaya.

Singh said...

How do we know for sure WSHG is not present in Yamnaya? It looks like WSHG is baked into Yamanaya just like it is in preceding Khvalynsk, Progress_EN and Vonyuchka. I'm looking forward to see what published papers will say about this.

Presence of ABCC11 allele in Europe today can only be explained by steppe migrations, this allele must have been present in ANE or WSHG, don't you think? Idk if ANE has this allele but if does not then WSHG is certainly in Yamnaya and Corded Ware cultures too.

Jatt_Scythian said...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia

Are these R1b frequencies accurate?

37% in Lambadi is probably just a product of sampling but 9.5% in Pashtuns, 8% in Balochis, 7.6 % in Pakistani Punjabis, 7.4% in Pakistani IE?

If its predominantly Z2103 and not M73 or something upstream of M269 then have we found a Kushan/Indo-Parthian/Indo-Scythian genetic signature? I have my doubts on the accuracy as Pakistanis on the various FTDNA project rarely turn up R1b.

Anonymous said...

The proportion of ehg/ chg admixture in yamnaya is 60%/ 40%
In sredny stog is 75/25% more or less like in every european population where the ehg admixture is 3 or 4 times higher than chg admixture

Also sredny stog make makebetter fitt for europeans than yamnaya


Is evident that The proto sredny stog is the people that conquered all europe

Matt said...

It'll be cool to see that. 5000 BCE is so crazy early when we really think about it (not implying anything by that). Same as the average time of the first farmers in Spain that we have.

(I was plotting some dates against West Eurasia PC plots yesterday, using the latest dates from the .anno file : https://imgur.com/a/0vIS9fR.

I find it's useful to look at to get a real sense of what the trends are over time, and the expanses of time between some of these groups. 5000BCE is almost 2000 years before Blatterhohle Cave, and only 1000 years after the very first Anatolian farmers in SE Europe. PG2001 is dated 4860 BCE, almost 2000 years before the earliest Yamnaya samples...).

Jatt_Scythian said...

Is there evidence that P is East Eurasian other than modern distributions?

A said...

Given the presence of I2a in Khvalynsk, I wonder if I2a had something to do with the megalithic structures around the Urals, which have similarities to the megalithic culture in northwest Europe, which was exclusively I or I2a. According to archaeologist S. Grigoriev the similarities between them can only be explained by migration.

gamerz_J said...

@Davidski
Thanks for the elaboration. So we can make out affinities/components but not direction/origin,am I understanding it correctly?

@Matt
" would lean on it being simpler that there would be low level and totally plausible flow from populations we know about, than for us to multiply ghost populations which may never be evidenced (and for which the only evidence is still quite untested models like momi2, or even qpGraph).

It makes sense that it is gene flow rather than many ghost populations but perhaps it will not be always so, especially in the presence of components that one group has and the other does not.
As for qpGraph, I actually learned here that it should be interpreted with caution,I tried to look up the literature about it on my own too, but not entirely clear I must say.

gamerz_J said...

@Jatt

It's not about the modern distribution only, it's about the diversity of the P clades found in East Eurasia as well.

It's hard to think of a scenario where it's West Eurasian. Maybe it originated in South Asia instead of East Asia, but in any case, it looks ENA to me.

gamerz_J said...

Please excuse the 3rd consecutive post but this just came out: "A Paleogenomic Reconstruction of the Deep Population History of the Andes" Link: https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(20)30477-3.pdf in case anyone is interested. Their qpGraph also includes MA1 and they here model it as only 9% East Eurasian (Han-related) since people were discussing about this earlier.

Also, it seems the Dzudzuana paper will come out after all? https://twitter.com/razibkhan/status/1258527061079060480

Jatt_Scythian said...

Its about the diversity of P clades found in modern East Asia. Ancient DNA doesn't agree and people arguing P is East Eurasian usually have an agenda.

I mean if its about diversity the only subclade under F with any representation in East Asia is K2.
I find it hard to believe anything under F is East Eurasian originally.

G- West Eurasian
H- West Eurasian
IJ- West Eurasian
K1 - West Eurasian



mzp1 said...

@Matt,

I think I understand what you mean about the vast times scales. From 5,000BC to 3,000BC is the same as from the time of Jesus to now. But in that time their lives barely changed at all, just a few more animals and maybe a few more metals etc, but our societies have changed drastically and still continue to do so. The thought of things basically being the same for thousands of years seems impossible for most people today, but that is how it was for most of history. Something I gleaned from reading those early IE hymns is a feeling of stability, permanence and absoluteness to their way of life, which is sadly missing from ours.

Samuel Andrews said...

@David, I say whatever Kurgan's Southern ancestor is it is mostly like published CHG genomes from Georgia. Satursbila dates 13,000yb. This is an old group. DOn't see why CHG north of Caucasus would be very diferent.

Davidski said...

@Samuel

Yep, the CHG-related ancestry in Yamnaya is indeed very similar to CHG. The version in the North Caucasus Piedmont steppe samples actually seems somewhat different, especially in the Vonyuchka female.

Here's a prediction: those early Yamnaya-like steppe people from around 5,000 BCE will be modeled as EHG/CHG minus any West Siberia HG or Iranian/Central Asian farmer.

Davidski said...

@Matt

I totally missed that...

Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic PG2001: 5000-4100 BCE [4336-4178 calBCE (5397±28 BP, MAMS-110563, charcoal), 4991-4834 (6012±28 BP, MAMS-110564, bone].

Backs up what I said about the Neolithic sample from further north.

capra internetensis said...

@JattScythian

F2, the most basal living member of F, is Southeast Asian. But really I think there's been too much drift for any of this to mean much.

Re the South Asian R1b, the Pakistani sample of 176 men is 4.5% R1b-M73 - all of it Hazara - and 3% R1b-L23(xP312,U106) - which is Balochi, Makrani, and Pathan. The Balochi and Pathan samples are part of this same larger sample, not independent. The Lambadi and Indian Punjabi samples are R1b-M269. I guess these are all R1b-Z2013, though R1b-M73 and R1b-PH155 also exist in South Asia.

Singh said...

@Davidski

"minus any West Siberia HG"

What is this prediction about lack of WSHG in Yamnaya based on? David Anthony in his book claims Khvalynsk is genetic ancestor of Yamnaya under Chapter 6.2 Mating Network #2 : The Volga-Caucasus Network 4500-4000 BC

In my previous comment I pointed out why WSHG is baked into Yamnaya and the presence of East Asian ABCC11 allele in Europe makes it very obvious that this allele was mediated by ANE & WSHG.

Samuel Andrews said...

@Davidski,
"4991-4834 BC"

Wait what? I thought PG2001 was 4300 BC? Whee does this new date come from?

Samuel Andrews said...

@Davidski,

Btw, about mtDNA U1b in Iron age FInland. In modern pops it is most common in Caucasus mountains. There is still U1b in Karelia today.

U1b=CHG
U1a=IranN

U1a is common in Iran, India.

Davidski said...

@Vincent

Obviously Khvalynsk isn't the genetic ancestor of Yamnaya, so Anthony is wrong.

And I'm not seeing any WSHG in Yamnaya, so there had to have been a population west of Khvalynsk that was similar to Khvalynsk but lacked WSHG, and this was the genetic ancestor of Yamnaya.

Davidski said...

@Samuel

The same anno file I linked to above.

Jatt_Scythian said...

@capra internetensis

Interesting about F. By drift are you saying that its too ancient to be associated with either side of the West-East Eurasian divide. What about K2 and P? I'm guessing you think those are Eastern?

I'm guessing M73 is mostly among Turks-Mongol descended populations or ultimately from them. What about the Z2103? How come it doesn't exist among the Indo-Aryan population of Pakistan? And ultimately is it from Sintashta or Central Asian IE empires that expanded into South Asia like Kushans, Indo-Parthians or Indo-Scythians? I guess the other option is it arrived there from the Iranian plateau late in history. What's the origin of R1b-PH155?

Thanks.



Jatt_Scythian said...

What is East Asian ABCC11 allele responsible for?

Davidski said...

It's impossible to track ancient admixture via a single allele, especially if this allele is susceptible to selection pressure.

Such alleles can be introduced into populations in obscure ways and their frequencies can explode if they're useful.

Mike said...

@Davidski A yamnaya-like pop already in the Neolithic sounds really amazing. Did these samples come from the varfolomeeva site, since you mentioned Saratov?

Jatt_Scythian said...

@Davidski

That's interesting.

Also what's your opinion on whether P is Eastern or Western?

Davidski said...

@Mike

Nope.

@Jatt_Scythian

I don't have an opinion about that. Deep ancestry like that is hard to untangle and it's not something I think about too much.

Samuel Andrews said...

I'm telling David Anthony about circa 5000 BC I0434 and circa 4900 BC PG2001. Incase, he doesn't notice their updated C14 dates.

Samuel Andrews said...

Ukraine Neolithic 5500-5000 BC has super super minor CHG but definitely has it. One Ukraine Neo has Near Eastern mtDNA T2.

Add that with new C14 dates for I0434, PG2001. Yeah CHG admix was definitely in the Steppe in the Neolithic era.

Yamnaya's genetic profile formed mainly in Neolithic. We have to stop thinking of it as forming in the Eneolithic, Bronze ages.

Singh said...

@Davidski

Frequency of ABCC11 allele is higher in Eastern and Northern Europe, it begins to decline in Central and Southern Europe for a reason

Anthony's claim about Khvalynsk being genetic ancestor of Yamnaya will still work because he suggests Yamnaya only began to homogenize after Enelithic steppe since Yamnaya has higher CHG than Khvalynsk

Rob said...

Reservoir effects are up to 700 years in Samara valley . Eneolithic formation stilll seems the most Lilkely

Rob said...

@ Davidski

“ Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic PG2001: 5000-4100 BCE [4336-4178 calBCE (5397±28 BP, MAMS-110563, charcoal), 4991-4834 (6012±28 BP, MAMS-110564, bone].”


Typological 5000-4100
Human bone with reservoir effect 4900 BC
Actual date - 4300 BC

Davidski said...

@Vincent

Yamnaya isn't derived from Khvalynsk. You'll see that very soon.

Davidski said...

@Rob

Sample I2181 from Smyadovo, Bulgaria, already has this type of Khvalynsk/Progress/Vonyuchka CHG-rich ancestry.

This guy is dated to 4550-4455 calBCE.

Rob said...

Yes, to clarify I was referring to the north Caucasus process. In fact Govedarica said that the caucuses steppe culture is the latest, beginning around 44/3000 BC. So the corrected C14 ones confirm that
Also, the the genetics confirms Kotova’s suggestions that the north Caucasian Kogan groups derive from the eastern variant of the SSC.
So eneolithic is a terminus ante quem

Santosh Rajan said...

Unfortunately, due to the sheer stupidity and excesses in the last comment thread, this comment thread will be heavily moderated. That is, you'll have to write something intelligent and useful for it to appear under this blog post. Crazy, I know, but it is what it is. And if things don't improve, then this might well be the new normal.

@Davidski Thank you for moderating the comments. For a reader like me, (and a vast majority of readers are like me I think) people who are not experts on the subject, or are just interested in the subject, the comments have become readable. Earlier there was so much noise, I used to just skim through the comments and read only @Davidski's and couple of other sensible peoples comments. This time I have read all the 245 comments so far.

I hope you keep this up through all your future posts. Thank you.

Vladimir said...

@Rob Eastern SSC is Konstantinovka culture, and this is don again. In other words all paths lead to the don river?

Samuel Andrews said...

>This blog determined Bell Beaker R1b L151 is from Corded Ware. Before anyone else did.
>This blog determined Yamnaya has European farmer ancestry before anyone else did.
>This blog determined Kurgan's Mideast ancestry is from Mesolithic/Neolithic hunter gatherers before anyone else did.

However, it was not until Wang 2018. Before, then everyone here assumed Middle East immigrants helped form Khvalnsky.

Rob said...

@ Vladimir

Sredni Stog is before Konstantinovka culture ; the latter is a pre-Yamnaya group
Exactly how SSC & KC relate is tbd

vAsiSTha said...

Khvalynsk I0434 surely has WSHG ancestry. So do Progress 2 samples. mediated through an east of caspian pop similar to neolithic ancestor of aigryzhal_ba. Aigyrzhal_ba has about 35% wshg, rest is iran_N.


Target Distance GEO_CHG Aigyrzhal_BA Khvalynsk_En Tyumen(WSHG)
Khvalynsk_I0434 0.0278 9.6 18.8 66.0 5.6

For progress_2. But im only repeating myself. Note that progress completely rejects khvalynsk, but accepts iran+wshg containing I0434. this type of ancestry is only available east of caspian.

Target Distance GEO_CHG Aigyrzhal Khvalynsk_En Khvalynsk_I0434
RUS_Progress_En:PG2001 0.026 23.2 10.0 1.8 65.0
RUS_Progress_En:PG2004 0.029 14.0 4.0 0.0 82.0
Average 0.0282 18.6 7.0 0.9 73.5

So the ancestors of Yamnaya surely had decent WSHG ancestry, upwards of 10%.

As far as the claim of yamnaya being from neolithic is concerned, i call bollocks on it till we actually get to see those samples.

With this new I0434 discovery, i take back my hypothesis that there was a CHG+Iran+wshg population in the caucasus which formd the steppe_eneolithic at Progress2. Rather this Iran+WSHG came into Progress2 from Khvalynsk, which got it from east of caspian.

This is from the data so far, new data will change the hypothesis.

Davidski said...

I find it very hard to believe that this has anything to do with east of the Caspian, since a population like Khvalynsk I0434 was living just west of Khvalynsk at least 5,000 BCE, except that it lacked WSHG ancestry.

Haha.

Samuel Andrews said...

@vAsSTha,

I0434 is not an ancestor of Yamnaya. He has WSHG, but Yamnaya does not.

I0434's CHG ancestry came from pops like PG2001 who lived in North Caucasus Steppe. It isn't from IranN admixed WSHG in Central Asia.

vAsiSTha said...

Meh, location does not matter.
It is clear than all 3 steppe_en samples lie perfectly on the I0434 to Kotias cline.

It is also clear that I0434 has iran + wshg ancestry. The east caspian migration to the region is confirmed. Only wish the rest of 'richly endowed' Q1a samples from region are published asap. I0434 has too few snps for qpAdm.

this pca should make my above statements clear.
https://imgur.com/Qr50rXV

Davidski said...

Yeah, there was a migration from Central Asia to the steppe north of the Caucasus >5,000 BCE that just happened to bring with it a component native to Central Asia that was very, very similar to indigenous Caucasus hunter-gatherers.

Bahaha...

vAsiSTha said...

Unless there is a chg to wshg cline (newsflash, there isnt; only iran wshg cline exists), the east of caspian ancestry in I0434 is confirmed.

Samuel Andrews said...

@vasitha,

There's no evidence I0434 has IranN ancestry. His Near Eastern admix is from pops from Southern Russia like PG2004.

9% DaliEBA score isn't good evidence he has IranN ancestry. All we know is I0434 has West Siberia ancestry.


@0.021
Dali_EBA EHG Progress_Steppe_Eneolithic
Khvalynsk_En:I0434 9.0 22.0 69.0

@0.019
EHG Progress_Steppe_Eneolithic Steppe_Maykop
Khvalynsk_En:I0434, 20.4 61.8 17.8



Kavkasi said...

Did they also change the Date for PG2004 and Vonyuchka ? I am very sure that this eneolithic steppe pops reached as far north as Khvalynsk.

Davidski said...

@vAsiSTha

West Siberian ancestry is confirmed in I0434, but the Central Asian stuff is just in your head and it'll always stay there.

zardos said...

So to sum it up, the impression I had for quite some time seems to be correct?
The Lower Don culture came into existence after the mixture of EHG foragers from the rivers with a yet to be determined CHG rich population in tge transition from a Mesolithic to the Neolithic.
With Western Neolithic influences SSC developed in which we can assume most later steppe paternal lineages were already present.
Yamnaya being just one R1b subset which first expanded East, just to come back and push those in the West into Old Europe, in addition to the already numerous pull factors for the Western steppe groups. In the East they rolled over even earlier groups of Western steppe people, especially the Khvalynsk culture.
Anyone disagrees?

Matt said...

It'd be remarkable to find EHGs after 5000 BCE not being integrated at all into steppe populations that lasted. In most of rest of Europe we find a fair bit of survival and integration of HG populations after this time, until we get the 20-30% in the North and West and 10-15% in SE (not exactly like this as of course you have Czech_MN with little, Tripolye with quite a bit etc). And then further integration in Baltic etc. These contribute to later populations. If it's the case it's the case though.

zardos said...

@Matt: There was no big integration of local foragers throughout most of the Neolithic. They made it to the top in some places and most of the spread of this ancestral component happened by migrations and expansions of these new hybrid cultures at the expense of the weaker farmer clans.

When Corded Ware expanded, they had the full package of agro-pastoralist tools in their bag. They could expand fast and beyond the limits of the initial Neolithic colonisation. So its only on their ecological limits that significant hunter gatherer ancestry survived, namely in the Baltic region. But most of this was, again, WHG and most of the EHG increase can be attributed and seen in the Uralic people, as a people apart. So far I saw little proof for a larger scale integration of any EHG foragers into CWC and even less so for those groups staying and surviving in Europe. Did you?

Finno-Ugrian and Turkic people Russia seem to have excess EHG, but Baltics have little of it?

vAsiSTha said...

@samuel

steppe_eneolithic is not ancestral to khvalynsk, its the other way round. good try. The steppe_en sample is 4900bce only due to reservoir effect. 4200bce is the correct age, based on charcoal dating.

"Humans and animals consuming aquatic organisms may show reservoir effects as well. Chronologies of cultures in the Russian steppe based on bones of humans and animals living near rivers and lakes (Shishlina 2008; Schulting and Richards 2016) therefore need to be verified by dating terrestrial samples like charcoal, wood, or bones of herbivore fauna. Paired dating of terrestrial samples and samples influenced by aquatic components from the same archaeological context can be used to quantify the reservoir effect and verify the chronologies of cultures."

"CONCLUSIONS
We present 14C dates for three samples from grave 12 of the Lebyazhinka V burial ground from the same context: a human bone, carp pharyngeal teeth, and a marmot canine. This helped determine the “apparent age” for three Eneolithic individuals buried in grave 12 and grave 9. The difference in the 14C age of the human bones from grave 12 and grave 9 and the 14C age of the marmot is large, 415 and 645 14C yr, respectively. The observed reservoir effect correction ranges from 415 to 730 yr. Historically, that would have been a very large interval, even for the Eneolithic; it is long enough for archaeological cultures to evolve and change. The older age of the human is caused by consumption of aquatic food. Fishing was one of the major components of the subsistence system during the Eneolithic in the studied region."

From https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321132963_The_Lebyazhinka_Burial_Ground_Middle_Volga_Region_Russia_New_14C_Dates_and_the_Reservoir_Effect/link/5a2ebd15aca2726d0bd68ac9/download

Davidski
Anyone who can read PCA https://imgur.com/Qr50rXV can see that I0434 is formed from a point on Iran WSHG cline and not just WSHG. It could have been CHG WSHG cline, but such a cline does not exist. Your dishonesty is really disgusting.

gamerz_J said...

@Samuel Andrews

"I0434's CHG ancestry came from pops like PG2001 who lived in North Caucasus Steppe. It isn't from IranN admixed WSHG in Central Asia."

I thought WSHGs lacked Iranian or Caucasus ancestry.

gamerz_J said...

@Jatt

Not all the subclades of the haplogroups you posted are West Eurasian. And there is a lot of literature about some low ENA ancestry in ANE while I have not seen similar patterns of WE admixture in most ancient East Eurasians.

Of course, that might change in the future and perhaps there are alternative explanations for this affinity rather than direct admixture.

As for ABCC11 allele, it is a determinant of human ear wax type among other things and under-arm odor. It is originally East Eurasian but as Davidski said, beneficial alleles can rise up to high frequency (due to selection) quite fast with a minimal amount of admixture (some literature had suggested even an admixture of 2% can do that). It is also quite old.

Mayuresh Madhav Kelkar said...


Blogger Davidski said...
@vAsiSTha

West Siberian ancestry is confirmed in I0434, but the Central Asian stuff is just in your head and it'll always stay there.

Vasihistha just posted the PCA

https://imgur.com/Qr50rXV

What do you think of it?

Samuel Andrews said...

@vaistha,
"steppe_eneolithic is not ancestral to khvalynsk, its the other way round. good try."

The fact is, Khvalnsky had ancestry from CHG-rich pops in Southern Russia. If you have another explanation for their CHG ancestry, I'll be glad to tear down that explanation.

Now, that doesn't mean it isn't possible STeppe Eneolithic has Khvalnsky ancestry. Maybe, originally pops in Southern Russia were pure CHG, migrated into Upper Volga created Khvalnsky, then migrated back south.

But, that isn't likely. We know for a fact Khvalnsky has ancestry from Southern Russia, we have no evidence Steppe Eneolithic has ancestry from Northern Russia. End of story.

Samuel Andrews said...

@vaistha,
"steppe_eneolithic is not ancestral to khvalynsk, its the other way round. good try."

Where are you even going with this? Are you saying Khvalsnky is from Central Asia, then migrated south created Steppe Eneolithic who is therefore also from Central Asia?

Davidski said...

I think vAsiSTha isn't yet aware of all of the facts.

One fact he isn't aware of is that there was a population west of Samara already in 5,000 BCE that was basically a mix of EHG and CHG without any West Siberian ancestry.

But I'm afraid that this chap is somewhat mentally unstable, so it's likely that he'll spend years wasting his time trying to prove that Yamnaya is, one way or another, from Central Asia no matter what the facts show.

Matt said...

@Zardos, there are quite a few examples if 1st or 2nd generation admixture events at quite a few different locations in our EN->MN dataset, at BKG in Poland, Blatterhohle in Germany, Pitted Ware Culture, and elevated proportions of HG ancestry among a minority of samples in Scotland_N which also suggests ongoing admixture in many locations, even quite late (earlier, intermixed samples at Koros, Iron Gates, Malak Preslevants). If we're finding it in quite a few places, it's probably not extremely rare outcome.

We have previously discussed elsewhere your assertions about which groups were "strong" or "weak" during the neolithic, and how this shows in what you interpret as their desire and ability to conquer living space, and there is no need to do so again.

Mayuresh Madhav Kelkar said...

"Davidski said...
I wasn't referring to I0434. There are samples like that further west, probably even older, and more relevant to Yamnaya."

And one more thing. Can you post those sample numbers and the corresponding output just as Vasistha has done?

Mayuresh Madhav Kelkar said...

"One fact he isn't aware of is that there was a population west of Samara already in 5,000 BCE that was basically a mix of EHG and CHG without any West Siberian ancestry"

Fair enough. I will wait for Vasistha to respond to that.


"But I'm afraid that this chap is somewhat mentally unstable,"

There is no need for name calling when one has all the facts as they claim.

Davidski said...

I wasn't calling vAsiSTha names. I really do believe that he's mentally unstable and unable to think straight.

Mayuresh Madhav Kelkar said...

davidski said...
I wasn't calling vAsiSTha names. I really do believe that he's mentally unstable and unable to think straight.


Thank you for clearing that up.

Anonymous said...

@Davidski
"I wasn't calling vAsiSTha names. I really do believe that he's mentally unstable and unable to think straight."

You can call him vaThara, he'll understand, he'll feel good.


Samuel Andrews said...

Calling someone mentally unstable is an insult.

zardos said...

@Matt: No need to discuss this at length, just some additional comments on which you might agree: The individual cases popping up had little overall impact. Whole Neolithic populations shifted, because of migrations and expansions from Neolithic groups which were as a whole WHG shifted. Individual, random assimilation is only a small part of the observed pattern with the increase of WHG ancestry from the early to the Middle Neolithic. Weak and strong, if I use that terms at all, simply refer to situational advantages in the competition, whatever they are. Without which, there would have been no expansions of one people at the expense of another.
The increase of WHG and haplogroup I2a throughout most of Europe was, in any case, for sure not just the result of local foragers individual assimilation being equally distributed. There's more to it.
The best way to exemplify the difference is that there is no known group in the post-steppe European context which shows a dominance of local EHG forager lineages, other than those from the steppe, and an increase of EHG which would be even remotely comparable to what happened in the Neolithic period with WHG. That did not happen, most likely nowhere, and if somewhere, it was in a place which didn't matter on the long run.

vAsiSTha said...

What some unpublished population west of samara is like (which only davidski knows about) has no bearing on the fact that I0434 has evidence of migration from east of caspian. and those 5 Q1a samples (hopefully high quality) that Anthony keeps talking about should resolve this matter completely one way or the other, however I doubt he will ever allow it released for obvious reasons. Frankly im quite tired of Davidski resorting to unpublished samples and ghost populations as an answer to everything that goes against his biases.

Davidski claims I0434 has only WSHG and no Iran_N ancestry, however a cursory look at the PCA or this Vahaduo run proves him wrong.

Target Distance GEO_CHG Aigyrzhal_BA Karelia_HG Khvalynsk_En Tyumen_HG
Khvalynsk_I0434 0.0273 10.4 20.6 10.2 55.4 3.4
Average 0.02739923 10.4 20.6 10.2 55.4 3.4

Distance 2.7% with 20% Aigyrzhal proportion (=iran + wshg)

Target Distance GEO_CHG Karelia_HG Khvalynsk_En Tyumen_HG
RUS_Khvalynsk_I0434 0.03280953 20.4 1.2 63.8 14.6
Average 0.03280953 20.4 1.2 63.8 14.6

Distance 3.28% without Aigyrzhal, much worse model.

Link
for those who would like to see vahaduo result as a pic.

This I0434 is the source of ancestry for Steppe_Eneolithic

Target Distance GEO_CHG Karelia_HG Khvalynsk_En Khvalynsk_I0434 Tyumen_HG
Progress_En:PG2001 0.02853312 26.4 0.0 0.0 73.6 0.0
Progress_En:PG2004 0.02995070 15.4 0.0 0.0 84.6 0.0
Average 0.02924191 20.9 0.0 0.0 79.1 0.0

I challenge anyone to post a better 2 way vahaduo model, with distance less than 2.9%.

Link for those who prefer vahaduo result as a pic






Anonymous said...

vaThara is as always in his repertoire, he models an ancestor over its descendant! He is modelling the Early Eneolithic using the Late Bronze Age, this is pure fraud, Davidski is absolutely right.

mzp1 said...

I don't understand how the presence of the 50/50 EHG/CHG famous steppe signal west of Samara by 5,000BC really strengthens the case for a PC Steppe origin for that genetic profile.

I know Davidski and others are excited by it but that doesn't make sense to me. If that component originated from Central Asia there is no reason why it cant travel further west, and quite early too. The relationship between those samples and the EHG cultures would be more interesting.

Basic understanding of Bayesian probability would show that these new samples, along with a lack of pure CHG in the vicinity, significantly weaken the argument for a PC steppe origin for the steppe signal.

Personally, I don't believe anyone in the PC steppe was ancestral to anyone else, because all the groups with the basic steppe profile +- Anatolian and WSHG were supplanted from the East. This includes Khvalynsk, Vonyuchka, Yamna, Steppe Maykop etc.

So we have numerous cultures that we have genetically profiled in the region, none are pure CHG (and none are pure WSHG). According to Bayes, Davidski, Anthony and Samuel are in a very weak position.

Singh said...

@Davidski
was basically a mix of EHG and CHG without any West Siberian ancestry.

If you have followed published studies about EHG then you would know that "WSHG" signal was always present with EHG, now we actually know where it's coming from. SHG study talked about that signal, Maykop paper talks about that signal and Dzudzuana study specifically mentions EHG needing additional Asian admixture.

It's beginning to look like "pure" ANE never made it to Eastern Europe, it came as a package with WSHG itself. It's not surprising that Lazaridis says ANE/ENA came as PACKAGE at ~13kya. This would also explain expansion of asian cord ceramics along with and microblade technology coming via Baikal route.

epoch said...

[1] "distance%=1.7566"

RUS_Khvalynsk_En_scaled:I0434

RUS_Progress_En,62
RUS_Khvalynsk_En,19.6
RUS_Tyumen_HG,9.8
RUS_Karelia_HG,8.6

Matt said...

@zardos, I'm not sure that's an additional comment really as much as just repeating your assertions again. It doesn't seem like there is any clear and good evidence for how much HG related ancestry is a pulse vs continuous admixture.

vAsiSTha said...

This same I0434 also forms the ancestries of Kumsay_EBA and steppe maykop - otherwise known as central_steppe_eba (likely mediated through steppe eneolithic). notice how khvalynsk_en and karelia_hg are completely rejected

https://imgur.com/aSTW2Eg

SO to sum it up, a sample like I0434 is unique, with ancestry of about 15-30% from neolithic east of caspian region, and is highly influential in the steppe region, forming populations like steppe_eneolithic 4300bce (80% ancestry) and maykop/central_steppe_eba indirectly (40% ancestry).

you all should fiddle around and use it for your nmonte runs

zardos said...

@Matt: The best evidence is that its specific cultures which are almost exclusively I2a plus heavily WHG shifted, while others aren’t. But its up to the genetic experts to gather more samples and creating better models to solve that.

gamerz_J said...

@Vincent

EHG have no more than 3% East Asian ancestry (excluding ENA from ANE). WSHG have about 20%.

"It's beginning to look like "pure" ANE never made it to Eastern Europe, it came as a package with WSHG itself"

No, the ENA signal is probably a later arrival.

Samuel Andrews said...

@mzp1,

All your theories on origins of Yamnaya profile are based on possibilities not evidence. It is possible Yamnaya came from Central Asia but there is no evidence for it.

For example, where is the evidence for this. Where is the evidence Khvalnsk, Yamnaya come from successive waves from Central Asia?

"Personally, I don't believe anyone in the PC steppe was ancestral to anyone else, because all the groups with the basic steppe profile +- Anatolian and WSHG were supplanted from the East. This includes Khvalynsk, Vonyuchka, Yamna, Steppe Maykop etc."






Simon_W said...

@Matt & Zardos re: WHG resurgence, even before ancient DNA had become available it has been theorised by some that the TRB and related cultures arose as a fusion of HG-descended Ertebölle with the MN farming cultures to its south and that the HG-element was the dominant one, the farmers the substrate. Carl-Heinz Böttcher's book "Der Ursprung Europas" (published in 2000) comes to my mind. Böttcher further theorised that these Chalcolithic TRB-related cultures were the PIE. In this point however ancient DNA has proven him completely wrong.

Singh said...

@gamerz_J

ANE has old-ENA or proto-ENA but EHG has actual East Asian mediated by WSHG. This ancestry was accompanied by corded ceramics and microblade technology. It lines up well with ~13kya arrival proposed by Lazaridi because that's when those corded pottery and microblade technology shows up in archaeology around that time in East Europe/Volga.

vAsiSTha said...

@archi
"is as always in his repertoire, he models an ancestor over its descendant!"

as usual this will be my last response to you.

Aigyrzhal was chosen after a lot of thought by me to represent 5th mill bce pop from the region, as a proxy.
Aigyrzhal has almost 0 EHG, they are not descendents of the PC steppe at all. they are majoryl Iran + WSHG. Evidence https://imgur.com/4eCqPvB

Narsimhan supplement Pg 210 models Aigyrzhal distally as Iran_N (48%) + WSHG(44%) + Anatolia_N(8%) with p-value 0.07.

Matt said...

@zardos, sure, and I don't think what you propose is totally crazy, but also not self evidently obvious. More models will help with this.

In terms of different regions showing different patterns, I do agree, however having said that, I've checked my own belief in that a bit recently after running David's West Eurasia PC dimensions against time (from the .anno file, topped up with some from other places where they're not listed).

See here for a "Euro+Steppe+Anatolia" transect:

Time v West Eurasia PC1 - https://imgur.com/a/8KwOjor
Time v West Eurasia PC2 - https://imgur.com/a/BpJ1FVG

Although we do see regional differences in amount of HG increase, and the places where we find HG /HG admixed in EEF settlements shift north and west, there is quite a gradual and consistent trend over time.

It's not really lumpy or characterized by jumps at all, in the timeframe of approx 6000 - 2500 BCE (when Anatolia farmers seem to first enter Europe to the rough emergence of steppe ancestry).

I was actually surprised that when plotting this way, what seems to really jump out from the line of movement towards HG is that the later Greek_Peloponnese_N and Bulgaria_C samples around 4000 BCE begin breaking towards CHG/Near East. Then we don't really have any more samples from this Aegean/Southern Balkans region until the early Bronze Age in Bulgaria in 3000 BCE (where there is more Steppe related ancestry). But we can still see some signs of CHG/Near East related ancestry moving about in the form the Copper Age Sicily outlier at around 2700 BCE.

Luuk said...

@gamerz_J-"Also, it seems the Dzudzuana paper will come out after all? https://twitter.com/razibkhan/status/1258527061079060480"

What does he mean with mammath mideast thing? Is this a study only about the Dzudzuana subject, or is it a greater one with lots of locations from the Middle East? When can we expect to see this study?

Jatt_Scythian said...

I have a dumb question but was the ydna of Cherchen Man ever released?

Anonymous said...

@vaThara

As usual, you don't understand anything at all. All your pseudoscientific simulations are unscientific. Since you don't know the relationship between the samples or the influence on each other. You do not know how the previous WSHGs influenced this sample, how Afanasyevo influenced this sample, or who else or what else influenced it, or what exactly brings it closer to another sample. You are absolutely wrong all the time and just disgrace yourself.

RobertN said...

Amateur here. The concept of shared genetic drift. Can someone clue me in please? What does it mean?

Jatt_Scythian said...

Is what the user SLMD said on the previous page true? How can ANE have no relationship with East Asians when it is partially East Asian and ANS was 25% East Asian.

Anonymous said...

@Vincent

What we have older than 13K in Eastern Europe?
Sidelkino, ~ 11 kyo, is the older EHG and show less affinity to east asia than Kerelia and Samara.

Rob said...

@ Zardos

although gradual & individual introgression had also been happening , GAC and TRB represent punctuated expansions of Neolithicized hunter gatherer groups
Same with the British Neolithic, Iberian MN, Remedello-groups , some of the western Mariupol

mzp1 said...

"The CHG, geographically intermediate between Europe and the Near East resembled Near Eastern populations in the possession of Basal Eurasian ancestry5."

Laziridis Paper
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1.full#F6

CHG and Iran_N are differentiated from Dzuduana-Anatolian-Villabruna by excess Basal Eurasian. Steppe profile takes CHG/Iran_N and not Villabruna, but EHG takes Villabruna. Kotias has Basal Eurasian greater than Dzuduana, that must have come from the South East. Iran_N has the most.

Yamna is separeted from EHG by Basal Eurasian type ancestry that must of come from the East. Kotias already has this excess Basal Eurasian compared to Villabruna, so if this ancestry was present pre-Yamna in the Steppe, the WHG-EHG cline would be based on CHG+ANE not Villabruna+ANE.

Clearly Yamna is differented from WHG and EHG by excess Basal Eurasian, that ancestry did not travel over the caucuses, because if it had, it would not be differentiating factor in WHG-EHG poupulations vs later steppe populations.

Samuel Andrews said...

@mzp1,
"so if this ancestry was present pre-Yamna in the Steppe, the WHG-EHG cline would be based on CHG+ANE not Villabruna+ANE."

What we are arguing is CHG/EHG mixed pops exclusively lived in Southern Russia. That CHG ancestry didn't exist elsewhere in Europe.

There was a WHG-EHG cline which had no CHG ancestry. And there was also a seperate EHG-CHG cline in Southern Russia.

CHG ancestry is the differentiating quality in Yamnaya which places it outside the EHG to WHG cline.

"Clearly Yamna is differented from WHG and EHG by excess Basal Eurasian, that ancestry did not travel over the caucuses, because if it had, it would not be differentiating factor in WHG-EHG poupulations vs later steppe populations."

It is, the differentiating factor because all Mesolithic pops in Europe lack CHG.

Samuel Andrews said...

@mzp1,

You say Yamnaya's CHG ancestry must have come from the East.

Geographically, it makes more sense Yamnaya's CHG ancestry is from the Caucasus. Considering the oldest presence of CHG ancestry in Russia is in Southern Russia which is right next to the Caucasus.

Davidski said...

@Luuk

Yep, there are some huge papers on the way, with at least one with a lot of samples from the Middle East.

I think the new Lazaridis paper will be the one that finally confirms the steppe PIE hypothesis. Even if the authors don't spell this out, it'll be obvious from the data.

But it'll probably take years to flesh out the details and build a coherent picture of what really happened.

I also hope that they finally put an end to this nonsense about Yamnaya being derived from migrants from the Caucasus, Iran or Central Asia, and just admit that it's almost entirely of local hunter-gatherer ancestry.

Samuel Andrews said...

It is about time.

It's been two years since there's been a major ancient DNA paper on Europe or Middle East. Really it has been four years, if you don't include NArashmin 2018 which is mainly on Central Asia not West Euraia.

Davidski said...

vAsiSTha and mzp1 will still have the same hobby when these new samples drop, but they'll finally come clean and admit that they were always fantasy prehistory enthusiasts.

mzp1 said...

@Samuel,

You don't understand. Villabruna doesn't have Basal Eurasian. CHG and Iran_ do, that's why Villabruna is not CHG. But South of the Caucuses we have populations with varying levels of Basal Eurasian so we just have a CHG Iran_N contain, without BE they would be Villabruna like.

Outside of the Caucuses we only have Villabruna and CHG/Iran, which are exactly two distinct populations instead of a continuum like the Caucuses Iranian populations.

Two paths from caucuses to Europe, one via Villabruna and one picking up BE on the way to Iran.

I don't know about this early CHG related population you think is going to save you but it needs to bridge the gap between WHG and Steppe DNA by being inbetween Villabruna and CHG. I dont think it's going to happen as otherwise these concepts would not been as well defined as they are. This sample would have to change the meaning of WHG, EHG and CHG.

Davidski said...

@mzp1

Villabruna is from Italy and we're talking here about the hunter-gatherers from the steppe north of the Caucasus, which clearly have a lot of CHG-related ancestry.

So you're full of shit as usual.

vAsiSTha said...

Sredni Stog outlier also has lot of affinity to I0434/Progress2

Target: UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4:I6561
Distance: 4.0177% / 0.04017706
34.8 RUS_Khvalynsk_I0434
31.2 UKR_N_o
22.8 RUS_Khvalynsk_En
6.2 UKR_N
3.6 UKR_Globular_Amphora
1.4 KGZ_Aigyrzhal_BA
0.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.0 ROU_Iron_Gates_HG
0.0 ROU_Iron_Gates_N
0.0 RUS_Karelia_HG
0.0 RUS_Samara_HG
0.0 RUS_Sosonivoy_HG
0.0 UKR_Dereivka_I_En1
0.0 UKR_Meso

Target: UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4:I6561
Distance: 3.5151% / 0.03515081
35.0 RUS_Progress_En
24.6 RUS_Khvalynsk_En
24.0 UKR_N_o
9.8 UKR_Globular_Amphora
6.6 UKR_N
0.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.0 KGZ_Aigyrzhal_BA
0.0 ROU_Iron_Gates_HG
0.0 ROU_Iron_Gates_N
0.0 RUS_Karelia_HG
0.0 RUS_Khvalynsk_I0434
0.0 RUS_Samara_HG
0.0 RUS_Sosonivoy_HG
0.0 UKR_Dereivka_I_En1
0.0 UKR_Meso

Anonymous said...

@mzp1

"Two paths from caucuses to Europe, one via Villabruna(sic!) and one picking up BE on the way to Iran."

Horror, it turns out the way from the Caucasus goes through Italy. In the mzp1 verbiage it is impossible to understand, he decided that by writing a large number of words in an instructive style he can hide his ignorance and it is unclear what to prove. The person doesn't understand what times he writes about.

Samuel Andrews said...

@vasitha,

Sredny Stog I6561 gets his best fits when modeled with Corded War Early Baltic I4629. I4629 significantly improves fits for all of LNBA Europe. There is something special about him.

2.08"

Ukraine_Eneolithic:I6561

CWC_Baltic_early:I4629,44.2
Czech_MN,16.2
Yamnaya_Karagash:Yamnaya_Karagash,13.1
Yamnaya_Ukraine,9
Latvia_MN:I4554,5.5
Globular_Amphora:I2441,5.4
Vinca_MN,2.1
Beaker_Northern_Italy_no_steppe,2

vAsiSTha said...

"I also hope that they finally put an end to this nonsense about Yamnaya being derived from migrants from the Caucasus, Iran or Central Asia, and just admit that it's almost entirely of local hunter-gatherer ancestry."

yes davidski, you and your people are the purest of them all.

vAsiSTha said...

@samuel

"Sredny Stog I6561 gets his best fits when modeled with Corded War Early Baltic I4629"

what sorcery is this? I4629 is dated 2850bce while I6561 sredni stog is dated 4000bce. 16561 is ancestral to I4629. why do you do this?

Anonymous said...

@vAsiSTha

I6561 is not Sredni Stog absolutely. It's Abashevo highly likely (archeologically).

Target: UKR_Alexandria:I6561
Distance: 1.7097% / 0.01709665
28.2 Corded_Ware_Baltic
27.2 Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL
24.0 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
14.8 Corded_Ware_CZE
5.8 Corded_Ware_DEU

Target: UKR_Alexandria:I6561
Distance: 1.6605% / 0.01660458
31.2 Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL
22.0 Corded_Ware_Baltic
15.6 Corded_Ware_CZE
14.2 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
9.6 Yamnaya_UKR
4.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
0.8 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
0.0 Corded_Ware_DEU
0.0 Corded_Ware_DEU_o
0.0 Corded_Ware_POL
0.0 Corded_Ware_POL_early
0.0 RUS_Karelia_HG
0.0 RUS_Khvalynsk_En
0.0 RUS_Progress_En
0.0 RUS_Samara_HG

Target: UKR_Alexandria:I6561
Distance: 1.3987% / 0.01398650
28.6 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
22.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
20.8 POL_Globular_Amphora
10.2 Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL
7.8 Yamnaya_UKR
4.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
2.8 UKR_Globular_Amphora
2.4 Corded_Ware_DEU
0.0 Corded_Ware_Baltic
0.0 Corded_Ware_CZE
0.0 Corded_Ware_DEU_o
0.0 Corded_Ware_POL
0.0 Corded_Ware_POL_early
0.0 RUS_Karelia_HG
0.0 RUS_Khvalynsk_En
0.0 RUS_Progress_En
0.0 RUS_Samara_HG
0.0 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o

Distance to: UKR_Alexandria:I6561
0.02295234 Corded_Ware_CZE:I7279
0.02404641 Corded_Ware_CZE:I7209
0.02636551 Corded_Ware_DEU:I0049
0.02711531 Corded_Ware_CZE:I7207
0.02964895 Corded_Ware_DEU:I0103
0.02977566 Corded_Ware_POL:N44
0.02986302 Corded_Ware_CZE:I7208
0.03041200 Corded_Ware_Baltic:Plinkaigalis241
0.03136192 Corded_Ware_DEU:I0104
0.03136272 Corded_Ware_CZE:I6695
0.03159699 Corded_Ware_CZE:I7280
0.03282088 Corded_Ware_POL:N45
0.03319714 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early:Gyvakarai1_10bp
0.03375663 Corded_Ware_Baltic:Kunila2
0.03383918 Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL:RISE431
0.03409809 Corded_Ware_DEU:I1539
0.03436102 Corded_Ware_CZE:I6696
0.03493107 Corded_Ware_DEU:I0106
0.03563257 Corded_Ware_DEU:I1532

Samuel Andrews said...

@vaistha,

I6561 is older but more mixed than I4629. I4629 has no more farmer ancestry than Yamnaya. I see your model only has Khvalnsky in it. I assume because he is older. Generally this rule is good. But, sometimes it is appropriate to model older pops with younger pops if the younger are more pure.

Anonymous said...

@vAsiSTha

"I6561 sredni stog is dated 4000bce"

Archaeologically I6561 is not Sredni Stog at all, everybody understood the source wrong and started to think that it is Sredni Stog. Moreover, for this burial it was even stated that it does not belong to the Eneolithic at all. The date 4000bce is wrong, it happens, I am sure that such a date was received exactly on the assumption that it should be a priori.

vAsiSTha said...

Davidski could you put Satsurblia on global 25 please?

Davidski said...

Satsurblia_scaled,0.092197,0.101553,-0.093526,-0.000969,-0.092633,0.020917,0.030786,-0.001615,-0.139281,-0.085833,-0.002923,0.024278,-0.058424,0.009634,0.036373,-0.022938,0.044591,-0.008488,-0.027025,0.042896,0.04517,-0.009521,0.001849,-0.030245,-0.002515

Satsurblia,0.0081,0.01,-0.0248,-0.0003,-0.0301,0.0075,0.0131,-0.0007,-0.0681,-0.0471,-0.0018,0.0162,-0.0393,0.007,0.0268,-0.0173,0.0342,-0.0067,-0.0215,0.0343,0.0362,-0.0077,0.0015,-0.0251,-0.0021

Samuel Andrews said...

I didn't know it was that easy for you to add a sample G25.

Rob said...

I contend that the expansion of west Asian ancestry during the late paleolithic is due to expansion of european epigravettian into anatolia and Caucasus
As paradoxical as that may sound, It’s likely to be correct

mzp1 said...

That can't explain Iran_N South Asia.

Samuel Andrews said...

@Rob, Interesting.

I wish there were more studies on Caucasus mtDNA. There's almost nothing published. If there were, we could start talking about most recent common ancestor between mtDNA in Kurgan people and Caucasus. It could be Epipaleolithic, that would be quite a twist to the story.

Samuel Andrews said...

Predictions about Middle East which might confirmed or disproven in upcoming paper........

>Cline of Anatolian Neolithic ancestry in Levant. Higher levels in North, lower levels in South.

>Migration from Levant into Iraq, Iran in 3rd millenium BC coinciding with appearance of Semetic languages.

>Clear distinction between Akkadains/Assyrians and Sumerians.

>Major changes between Bronze age and Iron age-Modern Levant population. Because of major geneflow from Eastern Turkey/Northern Iraq into Levant in historical times.

Garvan said...

RobertN said...
“Amateur here. The concept of shared genetic drift. Can someone clue me in please? What does it mean?”

Genetic drift is random change in allele frequency in a population. Two isolated populations will not have the same drift. So shared genetic drift implies shared population history.

I found a few definitions of genetic drift on this page. https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/genetic-drift

vAsiSTha said...

@archi and samuel
im not discounting your idea of I6561 being misdated and misclassified, its possible. But then lets just avoid circle jerking when modeling these pops. My model has ancient distal sources which nevertheless proves affinity of I6561 to I0434 and progress_en.

@davidski thanks

@rob
are the khvalynsk sample dates also adjusted for reservoir effect? whats their correct dating acc to you?

Samuel Andrews said...

RobertN,

Genetic drift is created when a small population continuously "breeds" with each other over the course of generations. Often that originally small population will grow big and spread over a large area.

Most ethnic minorities, such as Jews, have high genetic drift. Which makes sense, considering they are small population who basically only breeds with themselves. There are countless examples like this all over the world of very drifted ethnic minorities.

The same is true for originally small populations who grew big. For example, Native Americans who grew out of an originally small populations.

Genetic drift is the bread and butter of population genetics. Because it creates the distinctions between populations. Some populations are more drifted than others, therefore related than others. Finns are more drifted than Hungarians.

ambron said...

Archi, if I6561 is not Sredny Stog, but something around Abashevo, then everything is automatically explained - Y Z93 and autosomal CWC and Steppe MLBA.

Samuel Andrews said...

Ultimately, every person carries genetic drift from ancestral populations they descend. The reason DNA can determine what populations you descend from is because you carry their drift. Technically, all humans have lots of drift from whatever distant African populations we all descend.

It is why with the enough ancient DNA, we can get accurate percentages of decent from Paleolithic populations a random modern person has.

Something we have learned about population genetics, is Paleolithic drift is a lot more powerful than recent history history.

For example, the distinction between French and Polish is more so determined by different percentages of Paleolithic ancestry than it is by French drift and Polish drift or West European drift and East European drift.

Anonymous said...

No dates have been adjusted, none at all. Nowhere is the reservoir effect measured at all, except in Russia. Rob's cry about Khvalynsk is redundant, since it is necessary to shout about all cultures in the same way. The whole difference between Khvalynsk and other cultures is that. that in Eastern Europe, there fish was cooked in vessels, and in other places fish was eaten raw and never stored in vessels, and ate as research shows even more than Khvalynsk. The reservoir effect is adjusted for the entire culture, not for an individual burial. Fish were eaten everywhere a lot, in Sumer, in Egypt, in Anatolia, in Greece.

Khvalynsky dates start from 5100-5200BC, the reservoir effect for Khvalynsk is 200 years, so you just need to subtract it and it turns out that 5000-4900BC, but this is not particularly necessary, since the approximate value of this value can be subtracted from any archaeological culture in the world.

CrM said...

Thanks for Satsurblia Davidski.

Target: Satsurblia_scaled
Distance: 3.7374% / 0.03737405
100.0 Kotias_CHG
0.0 Anatolia_Pinarbasi_HG
0.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.0 IRN_HotuIIIb_Meso
0.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3
0.0 WHG

Target: Kotias_CHG
Distance: 2.6985% / 0.02698455
90.0 Satsurblia_scaled
5.8 Anatolia_Pinarbasi_HG
2.2 RUS_AfontovaGora3
2.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.0 IRN_HotuIIIb_Meso
0.0 WHG

I guess that's just a tribal genetic variation and not a sign of some additional post Satsurblia genetic influx?

ambron said...

Samuel, isn't that the opposite? Goyet clearly brings Poles closer to the French.

Davidski said...

@CrM

I'm pretty sure that there will be quite a bit of genetic diversity in the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus and surrounds, with possibly some significant differences between groups from neighboring valleys.

The reasons for this should be clear; strong isolation since the initial dispersals of these groups into the mountains, but not total isolation and thus some gene flow from neighboring groups in Anatolia and Iran.

Rob said...

@ Archi

“ Rob's cry about Khvalynsk is redundant, since it is necessary to shout about all cultures in the same way. ”

Nope
Khvalynsk were Fishermen with reservoir effects of hundred of years
So if the human bone data from their dates to 5300, it is more like 4700 cal BC
By comparison people in the eneolithic carpathian basin ate predominantly cattle, so they don’t have reservoir effect
You can’t argue against science, layman

Anonymous said...

Davidski said...
"I'm pretty sure that there will be quite a bit of genetic diversity in the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus"

There can't be anything especially ancient there, that's why the man constantly lives there only from the Post Ice Age, before that he used to disappear there absolutely completely.

Rob said...

@ Archi

“ Khvalynsky dates start from 5100-5200BC, the reservoir effect for Khvalynsk is 200 years,”

A lot higher

“ The reservoir offset for the human appears to be about 700 14C yr.”

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/radiocarbon/article/lebyazhinka-burial-ground-middle-volga-region-russia-new-14c-dates-and-the-reservoir-effect/649B51FB774C7819B5CCAA95036CE6D7

Rob said...

@ mzp1

“ That can't explain Iran_N South Asia.”

It’s got nothing to do with Iran South Asia, which In turn has nothing to do with Villabruna

CrM said...

@Davidski

I guess the Eastern CHG from Azerbaijan, the ones who were most likely responsible for Gobustan Petroglyphs, would have a stronger Iran_N/Hotu signal.

Here's something curious. BON001 previously showed Pinarbasi + CHG(KK) + Iran_N signals,

Target: Anatolia_Boncuklu_N:ZKO_BON001
Distance: 2.7632% / 0.02763180
92.0 Anatolia_Pinarbasi_HG
4.0 IRN_Wezmeh_N
4.0 Kotias
0.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.0 Levant_Natufian

But if you include Satsurblia then it would replace Kotias and Iran_N.

Target: Anatolia_Boncuklu_N:ZKO_BON001
Distance: 2.8233% / 0.02823292
92.6 Anatolia_Pinarbasi_HG
7.4 Satsurblia_scaled
0.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.0 IRN_Wezmeh_N
0.0 Kotias
0.0 Levant_Natufian

vAsiSTha said...

@rob

So khvalynsk as well as progress_en are from 4300bce?

Anonymous said...

Rob said...
" “ Khvalynsky dates start from 5100-5200BC, the reservoir effect for Khvalynsk is 200 years,”
A lot higher"

Don't be absurd, Lebyazhinka V is not Khvalynsk culture at all, it's a completely different burial place of Mariupol type, which has nothing to do with Khvalynsk culture. You didn't specifically name the burial or the culture, as always.


"Paired 14C dating of human, sheep, and cow bones from the Eneolithic Khvalynsk graves was used in order to quantify the size of reservoir effect. The human bone from Khvalynsk II, grave 10, is 220 yr older than contemporaneous cow bone from the same grave. The date of a ring made of ungulate bone from Khvalynsk I, grave 147, is the same as for the cow bone. For this grave, the reservoir effect appears to be about 275 yr."

https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/radiocarbon/article/view/3511/3026

Coldmountains said...

@Archi

Do you have any evidences for I6561 being from Abashevo? Can you show any sources for this claims. The site has documented EEF influences from the West and his clade itself is rather untypical for later Indo-Iranians in the region, who tend to be Z2124.

This was written about the site

"Alexandria (1 individual)
An Eneolithic cemetery of the Sredny Stog II culture was excavated by D. Telegin in 1955-
1957 near the village of Alexandria, Kupyansk district, Kharkov region on the left bank of the river Oskol.105A total of 33 individuals were recovered.106 Based on craniometric analysis (I.Potekhina 1999) it was suggested that the Eneolithic inhabitants of Alexandria were not homogeneous and resulted from admixture of local Neolithic hunter-gatherers and early farmers, possibly Trypillian groups.107 We report genetic data from one individual"

Rob said...

@ Vas

Khvalynsk dates from ~ 4700 Bc; which synchronises with Varna, Sredni Stog etc
I’d need to see a bigger series of progress data but 4300 seems reasonable

Anonymous said...

@Coldmountains

I have already written, yet Telegin (1957) stated that this burial is not an ordinary Sredniy Stog, he stated that it is absolutely exceptional and the latest of all burials, he also said that it is an outlayer after Sredniy Stog. Kotova clearly said that it is not the Sredniy Stog and it is too early to attribute it to the Eneolithic. This burial is absolutely atypical for the Eneolithic, there are no Eneolithic attributes in it, which is absolutely strange for the Eneolithic. The rite in it is not Eneolithic, but rather reminds of Abashevo, the postures of the buried as in Abashevo. These people were killed by arrows, which shows that it was war, which is incredible for the Eneolithic, but normal for the Bronze Age.

In Alexandria there are burials from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age, it is a fact that people were buried there for a long period of time.

Rob said...

@ Archi

''Don't be absurd, Lebyazhinka V is not Khvalynsk culture at all, it's a completely different burial place of Mariupol type, which has nothing to do with Khvalynsk culture. You didn't specifically name the burial or the culture, as always.'


''The 14C age of the marmot canines narrows the gap between the timeline when Lebyazhinka V
was in operation and the timeline of the Khvalynsk burial grounds. Therefore, Lebyazhinka V
graves can be analyzed together with Khvalynsk burials within the same geographical, cultural and chronological contexts.

From your source -

''However, the 14C dates of the Khvalynsk cemetery were measured on human bones and on river and sea shells (Dentalium, Penctunculus, Unio sp., Viviparus, and Glycymeris) (Agapov et al. 1990; Kirillova and Popov 2005). A large aquatic component in the diet of the local population is shown by the stable isotope values. Thus, the dates obtained for human bone may show an apparent age of 2–3 centuries due to the reservoir effect; they are older than terrestrial samples, which are not affected by this effect. After applying a reservoir effect correction for the steppe Eneolithic period, the time interval for the Caspian steppe Eneolithic population has now changed to 4300–3800 cal BC ''


Archi, stop wasting space man.

vAsiSTha said...

So it's settled then, khvalynsk is from 4700bce due to 220 yr reservoir adjustment and progress_en from about 4300bce.

Anonymous said...

@Rob

Don't be ridiculous, Shishilina wrote directly to you that the reservoire effect for Khvalynsk doesn't change, she wrote directly that LyabizhInka V is not Khvalynsk culture.

"The age difference between the cattle and human bones from grave 10 of the Khvalynsk II is 220 yr, the human bone being older because of the reservoir effect."

Nobody attributed this settlement to the Khvalynsk culture and did not include its dates in it. Shishlina shifts the settlement of Lyabizhinka V to the date of Khvalynsk, not vice versa. She proposes to analyze Lyabyzhinka in the same context of time as Khvalynsk, not Khvalynsk shifts in the time of Lyabyzhinka, these are different cultures. Learn to read your own references.

epoch said...

@vAsiSTha

"what sorcery is this? I4629 is dated 2850bce while I6561 sredni stog is dated 4000bce. 16561 is ancestral to I4629. why do you do this?"

So what's the difference with what you do with Aigyrzhal_BA?

Matt said...

Sam Andrews: Something we have learned about population genetics, is Paleolithic drift is a lot more powerful than recent history history.

For example, the distinction between French and Polish is more so determined by different percentages of Paleolithic ancestry than it is by French drift and Polish drift or West European drift and East European drift.


IMO that's kind of difficult to test. Adna has enough damage and sampling is still sparse enough that both estimating modern proportions, and also then comparing actual differentiation to expected differentiation based on estimated proportions, both can't be done right now.

To the limited extent we can, let's test it with Vahaduo using Global25 data (as a proxy for direct genetic data).

First, let's estimate some proportions for real populations, using a 4-way model for the purposes of simplicity: https://imgur.com/a/f8PaQ9A .

(First image alphabetical, second image ranked by fit distance).

Then you can compute distances between the models and compare them to distances on real populations.

This gives a bit of a mixed impression, as far as I can see.

On the one hand, the distance between real Polish and real French is pretty similar to the distance between real Polish and model French. Former is 0.0778, latter is 0.0703 (scaled G25 data). So distance there is mostly consistent with what would be expected on ancestral proportions.

On the other hand, distance between real Polish and model Polish is 0.0464 vs 0 if all explained by the model, and similarly distance between real Polish and model Ukrainian is 0.0465, vs real Polish and real Ukrainian of 0.101. Which suggests that other factors than ancient components matter.

We also see that comparing Model_Polish to Model_French, we'd only see a distance of 0.0529, which is about 70% of what we see between the real populations in G25.

Also, note this is dependent on population. At the extreme, distance between real Polish and model Icelandic is 0.0466, while between real Polish and model Icelandic is 0.0579, then model Polish and model Icelandic are only 0.0044. The "real" distance then is over 10x greater than is explained by differences in these ancestral proportions in this 4-way model. Another example with Irish: Real Polish-Model Irish: 0.0492, Real Polish-Real Irish: 0.0664, Model Polish-Model Irish: 0.0166.

Final note is that Global 25 is a proxy, but distances may slightly underestimate local genetic drift because the nature of PCA and the purpose of the design is capture global patterns, not local differentiation.

So Sam is correct that distances seem likely to be mostly *consistent* with ancestral proportions, but in some cases real distances they are probably larger than we would predict from the idea that all is from proportions, and there are distances which are not explained at all by assuming the same 3-way model for all European and proportions then explain. Whether this is due to "recent" genetic drift in past 4000 years, or more longstanding unmodelled structure.

Graphic overview of all model distances for Polish and Model Polish above: https://imgur.com/a/I9VSQMt

I would say, cautiously, that thinking that the ancient components explain all distances probably overweights North-South distances, and underweights East-West distances. At least using the main 4-way models usually used for European populations.

(E.g. distance beween Polish and Irish on G25 is about 63% of Polish-Spanish distance, over half as differentiated, whereas if we went by the 4-way model, and compared the two models we'd think it was actually only about 20% of the Polish-Spanish distance, less than 1/4 as differentiated).

(Above is all using Mesolithic->Neolithic/Eneolithic/Copper Age samples, as proxy for more ancestral populations, since that's what we are normally talking about).

***

Comment thread seems to be going OK, hopefully will not degenerate into the normal pointless bickering.

Anonymous said...

vAsiSTha said...
"So it's settled then, khvalynsk is from 4700bce due to 220 yr reservoir adjustment and progress_en from about 4300bce."

Don't see Rob's deception, Shishlin moves Lebyazhinka to Khvalynsk getting the date GrA-64051 Marmot tooth 5865±40 4785-4700 (1σ), not vice versa. And the reservoir effect is taken away from all dates, not the abstract ones. Here are the dates of Khvalynsk culture. Here are the dates of Khvalynsk culture:

Khvalynsk II, Volga River, Samara [I0434 / SVP 47] 5051-4860 calBCE
Khvalynsk II, Volga River, Samara [I0122 / SVP 35] 5045–4846 calBCE (6040±80 BP, OxA-4310)

We should subtract 200 years from them. However, you should subtract approximately the same amount from the dates of any other burial.

vAsiSTha said...

@epoch
Aigyrzhal is not a descendant of the steppe and has almost no EHG component. It lies on the ANE/wshg and iran_n Cline. it is completely independent of the ancestral profile of PC steppe.
Therefore, using it as a proxy for 5000bce central Asia creates no circlejerk issue, unlike in the model presented by samuel.

gamerz_J said...

@Vincent

"ANE has old-ENA or proto-ENA but EHG has actual East Asian mediated by WSHG. This ancestry was accompanied by corded ceramics and microblade technology"

Anyone is welcome to correct me here if wrong but:

1. Yes, it's possible that EHG has East Asian, but the papers I've seen have never suggested it has more than 3%. That would be about 1.5% in the Yamnaya or less.

2. Pots are not always people, and there is no definitive evidence that microblade technology did not originate in a heavily ANE population. It appeared in Siberia before North China IIRC.

@Luuk
I don't know but I guess after the summer sometime?

@Davidski

Thanks for adding the Satsurblia sample! Also, as Luuk asked above, would you have any estimates if these papers will come out this year or not?


Luuk said...

@Davidski-"Yep, there are some huge papers on the way, with at least one with a lot of samples from the Middle East."
So there are 2 huge papers coming, one with several locations from the Middle East and another with several locations from the Steppe? Or is it one single paper with both? Timewise, when can we expect these? In weeks?

@Davidski-"I also hope that they finally put an end to this nonsense about Yamnaya being derived from migrants from the Caucasus, Iran or Central Asia, and just admit that it's almost entirely of local hunter-gatherer ancestry."
I personally think that the formation of the Eneolithic Steppe cultures happened with the arrival of a cultural wave of Southern people responsible for the Neolithic Agricultural Revolution.
And I dont think only CHG is responsible for this formation, a mix of Middle Eastern groups (Anatolia_N, CHG, Levant_N) coming in phases of multiple waves into the Steppe.
But this doesnt effect the paternal genetics of the majority of the local Steppe population, and it was this local population speaking the proto IE language. And the incoming Southern people spoke a different language related to a Neolithic language in the Middle East.
Please have a look at this image (used by Max Planck studies) https://imgur.com/a/ANeaSyZ showing the routes of the Neolithic Agricultural Revolution.

@Samuel Andrews-">Cline of Anatolian Neolithic ancestry in Levant. Higher levels in North, lower levels in South."
This could be true. Do we consider Southeastern Turkey as being the highest level of Northern Levant? Which is actually Upper Mesopotamia?
So there was a Neolithic group of people from the more Northern parts coming in waves into the Southern Levant, mixing with the local Natufian people?

@Davidski-"I'm pretty sure that there will be quite a bit of genetic diversity in the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus and surrounds, with possibly some significant differences between groups from neighboring valleys.
The reasons for this should be clear; strong isolation since the initial dispersals of these groups into the mountains, but not total isolation and thus some gene flow from neighboring groups in Anatolia and Iran."

So could the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers from Armenia, Azerbaijan and Eastern Turkey slightly differ from the already sampled Mesolithic hunter-gatherers from Georgia? So the cline of Anatolia_N increases in the more Western parts of the Southern Caucasus?
Maybe the Shulaveri Shomu culture was formed by a wave of people from the more Southern regions (Southeastern Turkey) (See https://imgur.com/a/ANeaSyZ again for the migration routes and the directions of the Neolithic Revolution waves) carrying with them Anatolia_N?
This wave mixed with the local CHG component, moving together to the direction of the Steppe at the end of the 7th millennium BCE?

Davidski said...

@Luuk

I don't know how many papers will come out and when.

But the map from Max Planck that you linked to isn't accurate, and there's a good reason why it has a question mark near the arrow pointing into the steppe, because there was no farming on the steppe north of the Caucasus until the Iron Age.

These people were pastoralists. Most were local foragers turned pastoralists, while some did come from the south Caucasus, but these migrants didn't help to create Yamnaya. They were replaced by Yamnaya which came from the north.

vAsiSTha said...

@archi
"We should subtract 200 years from them. However, you should subtract approximately the same amount from the dates of any other burial."

No. The reservoir effect for Pg2001 at progress2 is 700 years. Charcoal from same context dated to 4200bce, human bone to 4900bce. Therefore PG2001 is from 4200bce.

5000-4100 BCE [4336-4178 calBCE (5397±28 BP, MAMS-110563, charcoal), 4991-4834 (6012±28 BP, MAMS-110564, bone]

Davidski said...

The charcoal date for PG2001 isn't necessarily accurate either.

See that's why the main date in the anno file is listed as 5000-4100 BCE.

dsjm1 said...

@Davidski, "action lies with Sredny Stog"
me = Waaaa!

How do I now go to my grandkids to continue their bedtime story of how R1b-L23-L51 was found nth east of Moscow close to the nth Volga and how we just needed to paper published for the details ?.

Next you will be saying that the upper Volga played no role and that all the Cordedware action was up and down the Dniester spreading east (not west) & that L51 got to the east Baltic from there. But as long as we stick to that being at least 1000 years before R1b-Z2103 reached the Tisza River & began building their kurgans there (the ones lacking L51/L11/L151).

Said with a big smile.

And here I was telling them they were Russian - now it seems that has become Ukrainian.

vAsiSTha said...

"The charcoal date for PG2001 isn't necessarily accurate either."

No, the calibrated charcoal dating is to be considered secure and the unadjusted human sample dating is to be rejected. Not to mention the other steppe_en samples are all from 4300-4100 calbce

"Chronologies of cultures in the Russian steppe based on bones of humans and animals living near rivers and lakes (Shishlina 2008; Schulting and Richards 2016) therefore need to be verified by dating terrestrial samples like charcoal, wood, or bones of herbivore fauna. Paired dating of terrestrial samples and samples influenced by aquatic components from the same archaeological context can be used to quantify the reservoir effect and verify the chronologies of cultures."

Anonymous said...

@vAsiSTha
No.

I wrote it all right. For Khvalynsk you have to subtract 200 from C14 date, not 700, it's set. And for any other culture in the world, you need about the same amount of +-, because everyone ate a lot of fish, but only in Russia are engaged in measuring this effect. For some it is necessary to subtract more, maybe 700, for some less in 50-100, but in fact it does not affect the dating because it is already heavily in a wide range given.

vAsiSTha said...

Archi, this isn't hard to understand. Khvalynsk had 20-30% fish diet hence reservoir effect is 250ish. So secure dating is around 4700bce like you said.

But for progress_en PG2001, charcoal is dated to 4200bce, bone is dated to 4900bce. So 700 yrs of reservoir effect. This is because PG2001 likely had 70% diet consisting of fish. Hence PG2001 dating is around 4200bce.

100% freshwater fish consumption would have given 1050yrs of reservoir effect. This is as per cook's linear mixing model and is laid out in the Shishlina et al paper.

And yes, other ancients need to be tested for reservoir effect too.

Davidski said...

@vAsiSTha

Aigyrzhal is not a descendant of the steppe and has almost no EHG component. It lies on the ANE/wshg and iran_n Cline. it is completely independent of the ancestral profile of PC steppe.

Hey poo poo head...

KGZ_Aigyrzhal_BA

KAZ_Botai
TJK_Sarazm_En
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

7.395 0.494651 0.192 0.600 0.207
21.501 0.0106009 0.259 0.741 -0.000

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1XMPZrAchSbR245L_X7Wwli-B3o39lxRM

Vladimir said...

In General, new studies eliminate the reservoir effect immediately and publish dates that have already been cleared of it. Here is the 2017 work: "one of the most interesting groups of ceramics is tableware from the Cherkasskaya 5 Parking lot. It is characterized by an admixture of freshwater clam shells (silt?), smoothed outer surface, and ornamentation with notches, which researchers do not identify with known local Neolithic cultures. For organics in ceramics of this type, a fairly early date was obtained (table 1, 1). it Would be possible to explain the aging due to the presence of clam shells, but they were eliminated in the process of sampling. In addition, the date for carbon deposits from similar types of ceramics from the same Parking lot was obtained (tables 1, 2), which completely coincided with the newly obtained date. In other words, two identical dates were obtained for two different organic materials, which fix the interval of 6200-5900 years of sun. Thus, the researchers 'assumption about the early Neolithic age of this group of ceramics on the Middle don is confirmed." A. A. Vybornov " New radiocarbon dates of the Neolithic Don”.

vAsiSTha said...

"Hey poo poo head..." Have Not missed this racial remark.
Right now you dance around like a 'pureblooded' monkey just because of lack of ancient samples from central asia and south asia. once those samples come, your game will be over.

Vagheesh models Aigyrzhal distally as just Iran_N+WSHG+Anatolia_N.

The EHG is extremely minor, and there is no WHG.

left pops:
Kyrgyzstan_BA_Aygirdjal

Kazakhstan_Dali_EBA:36.6
Tajikistan_C_Sarazm: 63.4
p-value: 0.128 https://pastebin.com/aaKXPZ5n

Target: KGZ_Aigyrzhal_BA:I11526
Distance: 4.0956% / 0.04095550
47.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
24.8 RUS_Tyumen_HG
11.6 RUS_Sosonivoy_HG
8.2 GEO_CHG
4.4 RUS_Samara_HG
3.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.0 MNG_North_N
0.0 RUS_Karelia_HG
0.0 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
0.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora

Target: KGZ_Aigyrzhal_BA:I11527
Distance: 3.1357% / 0.03135747
44.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
34.2 RUS_Sosonivoy_HG
12.6 GEO_CHG
7.0 RUS_Karelia_HG
1.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.0 MNG_North_N
0.0 RUS_Samara_HG
0.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG
0.0 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
0.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora

The presence of Central asian ancestry in Steppe_en as well as I0434 is clear even with using Sarazm_En, unless you claim that even Sarazm has yamnaya EHG + minor WHG ancestry.

Target: RUS_Progress_En:PG2001
Distance: 3.2610% / 0.03261036
54.4 RUS_Khvalynsk_En
23.0 TJK_Sarazm_En
22.4 GEO_CHG
0.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.0 RUS_Karelia_HG
0.0 RUS_Samara_HG
0.0 RUS_Sosonivoy_HG
0.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG
0.0 Satsurblia_scaled
0.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora

Target: RUS_Progress_En:PG2004
Distance: 3.7888% / 0.03788846
61.2 RUS_Khvalynsk_En
23.4 TJK_Sarazm_En
12.6 GEO_CHG
2.8 RUS_Karelia_HG
0.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.0 RUS_Samara_HG
0.0 RUS_Sosonivoy_HG
0.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG
0.0 Satsurblia_scaled
0.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora

Target: RUS_Khvalynsk_I0434:I0434
Distance: 2.8022% / 0.02802193
64.0 RUS_Khvalynsk_En
15.0 TJK_Sarazm_En
8.2 Satsurblia_scaled
7.2 RUS_Tyumen_HG
5.6 RUS_Karelia_HG
0.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.0 GEO_CHG
0.0 RUS_Samara_HG
0.0 RUS_Sosonivoy_HG
0.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora

qpAdm for Steppe_En

left pops:
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic

Russia_HG_Karelia: 48.3 +- 1.9
Turkmenistan_C_TepeAnau: 28 +- 3.2
Georgia_Kotias.SG: 23.7 +- 3.1
p value 0.16
https://pastebin.com/Qv0ufsRK

Matt said...

Slightly harping again on my off topic post related to Sam's response above where I was about comparing distances in G25 for a four-way model of European populations to the real distance:

With modern day European questions, we have the question of whether their nearest neighbours in genetic distance on G25 are closest to them because of only similarities in ancient proportions, or because of other unmodelled genetic drift (either after during and the Bronze Age, or before it).

One way to look at this is to plot the the distance from a population against the difference between distances of the model and reality.

Example for English Kent and Ukrainian: https://imgur.com/a/LPaCqKQ

In the case of English_Kent, we can see that the populations which are closest to them also tend to be the populations which are closest relative to the model - English Cornwall, Scottish, Irish, Norwegian, Icelandic. This confirms to us that the relatedness of English_Kent to these populations probably does not just reflect similarity in ancestral components.

There are also some populations which are absolutely close to English Kent but where this closeness is more in line with the model - Germany, for'ex, close to English Kent, but without an *excess* of closeness relative to the model. That suggests that the specific recent population history is less shared with Germany, and the similarity relates more to similarity in broad underlying components.

We see some similar things with micro-structure in the Ukraine comparison; although Polish are tied in overall closeness to Ukrainian with Russian Orel, Belarusian, there is less of a difference with the model's expectation, suggesting that this is very slightly more due to similarities in underlying components.

(Anyway, though this might be interesting for the questions of whether Global25 does actually contain any "specific" drift identifying NW Europe etc, or it's just all attributable to ancient modelled components. Basically it seems it does, and this is most apparent if we normalize position relative to ancient modelled components. But enough of the detour away from the Eneolithic Steppe!).

Davidski said...

@vAsiSTha

Right now you dance around like a 'pureblooded' monkey just because of lack of ancient samples from central asia and south asia. once those samples come, your game will be over.

You're delusional.

Please go and see a psychiatrist.

gamerz_J said...

@vAsiSTha

Trying to follow this conversation, the difference between Sarazm_EN and Iran_N is the WSHG component right?


@All
A bit off topic but was trying out some stuff since Satsurblia's coordinates were added.

Does anyone know if Anatolia_N= Anatolia_HG? It seems to me to have some CHG or Iran_N but perhaps not. Global 25 was not too clear on it.

epoch said...

@

"Therefore, using it as a proxy for 5000bce central Asia creates no circlejerk issue, unlike in the model presented by samuel."

As you state above it's modeled as follows:

"Narsimhan supplement Pg 210 models Aigyrzhal distally as Iran_N (48%) + WSHG(44%) + Anatolia_N(8%) with p-value 0.07."

"Vagheesh models Aigyrzhal distally as just Iran_N+WSHG+Anatolia_N."

Iran Neolithic is defined as Iranian-like HG + Anatolian by a number of papers. However, Harrapan samples are without any Anatolian admixture. I don't think that Kyrgyzstan is that far more western than Harrapan. If this admixture was fully indigenous it would not have had Anatolian. This reeks of migration into the area.

ambron said...

"We see some similar things with micro-structure in the Ukraine comparison; although Polish are tied in overall closeness to Ukrainian with Russian Orel, Belarusian, there is less of a difference with the model's expectation, suggesting that this is very slightly more due to similarities in underlying components".

Matt, these are important words! I explained it to my Polish adversaries. The close position on the PCA of Eastern Poles, Northern Ukrainians, Belarusians and Western Russians does not result from the origin of one population, but from a similar process of creating these populations - the assimilation of the Balts by the genetic Western Slavs.

zardos said...

@David: "These people were pastoralists. Most were local foragers turned pastoralists, while some did come from the south Caucasus, but these migrants didn't help to create Yamnaya. They were replaced by Yamnaya which came from the north."

Anything from the Lower Don? Wouldn't it be more realistic that those coming from South of the Caucasus did contribute, but so little it ALMOST disappears among the later populations which were mostly derived from local hunter-fisher cultures?

With "from the North", to what are you referring to? Much further North is rather unlikely. Just North of the Southern influence, which is something which needs to be determined.

epoch said...

Also, we have an Eneolithic BMAC sample from Damsgaard et al that is closer to Khvalynsk both in time and space. And that one doesn't fit all that well:

[1] "distance%=3.0157"

RUS_Khvalynsk_En_scaled:I0434

RUS_Khvalynsk_En,66.2
RUS_Tyumen_HG,12.8
Satsurblia_scaled,7.6
TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En,6.8
GEO_CHG,6.6

Simon Stevin said...

@gamerz_J What papers have ever suggested East Asian in EHG? I have not seen a single paper ever suggest that. How do you know that it is “East Asian,” the latest publications on East Asia have made some distinctions between East Eurasian and East Asian, and maybe there is a very deep Upper Paleolithic, Ancient South Indian/Asian relation, but I have yet to see any paper claim AEA in EHG. There is ANE admixture in Fofonovo_EN, Baikail_EN, Baikal_EBA, Lokomotiv_EN, Okunevo_EMBA, and even Shamanka_EN if you look at the K=6 Admixture graph in Damgaard et al. 2018. Why couldn’t that explain the overlap we see? From Damgaard et al. 2018: “We therefore examined the genetic relationship between Yamnaya and Botai. First, we note that whereas Yamnaya is best modeled as an approximately equal mix of EHG and Caucasian HG ancestry and that the earlier Khvalynsk samples from the same area also show Caucasian ancestry, the Botai_CA samples show no signs of admixture with a Caucasian source (fig. S14). Similarly, while the Botai_CA have some Ancient East Asian ancestry, there is no sign of this in Khvalynsk or Yamnaya. Our momi model (Fig. 4) suggests that, although YamnayaKaragash_EBA shared ANE ancestry with Botai_CA from MA1 through EHG, their lineages diverge ~15,000 years ago in the Paleolithic.”

Puree said...

As an aside, yet somehow relevant, I usually see cultural migration arrows in the Black Sea area using land routes only. Is is possible that there may have been navigation across the Black Sea in ancient times? Would it not be possible for the Black Sea as a water body to have been a pathway for cultural/linguistic/genetic dispersal, thus allowing for non-contiguous impacts (i.e. directly between the North and South Coasts, etc.)? It would seem that if ancient peoples were navigating the larger and probably more dangerous Eastern Mediterranean, then the Black Sea would also have been used not only for trade but for migration/invasion. I don't know about the earliest evidence of small craft use on the Black Sea. Does anyone have access to such information, if it is known?

mzp1 said...

"In qpAdm modeling, a deeply divergent hunter-gatherer lineage that contributed in relatively unmixed form to the much later hunter-gatherers of the Villabruna cluster is specified as contributing to earlier hunter-gatherer groups (Gravettian Vestonice16: 35.7±11.3% and Magdalenian ElMiron: 60.6±11.3%) and to populations of the Caucasus (Dzudzuana: 72.5±3.7%, virtually identical to that inferred using ADMIXTUREGRAPH). In Europe, descendants of this lineage admixed with pre-existing hunter-gatherers related to Sunghir3 from Russia4 for the Gravettians and GoyetQ116-1 from Belgium3 for the Magdalenians, while in the Near East it did so with Basal Eurasians.


Later Europeans prior to the arrival of agriculture were the product of re-settlement of this lineage after ∼15kya in mainland Europe, while in eastern Europe they admixed with Siberian hunter-gatherers forming the WHG-ANE cline of ancestry (Fig. 1c)."


These are Latvian HG, Karelia, Samara_HG and also Loschbor, which are Villabruna and Elmiron-like + AG3


"In the Near East, the Dzudzuana-related population admixed with North African-related ancestry in the Levant and with Siberian hunter-gatherer and eastern non-African-related ancestry in Iran and the Caucasus.

This is where EHG and Yamna come from.

" The first appearance of ‘Near Eastern farmer related ancestry’ in the steppe zone is evident in Steppe Maykop outliers. However, PCA results also suggest that Yamnaya and later groups of the West Eurasian steppe carry some farmer related ancestry as they are slightly shifted towards ‘European Neolithic groups’ in PC2 (Fig. 2D) compared to Eneolithic steppe. This is not the case for the preceding Eneolithic steppe individuals."
Wang Paper

So there is clearly two routes taking this "deeply divergent hunter gatherer lineage" (represented by Dzuzuana) to Easter Europe. WHG is Villabruna like. Then there is a pulse of EHG+Dzudzana, probably from Turkensistan with Sidelkino and the following EHG/CHG hunter gatherers. Then additional Anatolian + Basal Eurasian from EHG-Iran contact zone in Turmenistan.

Because there are two routes, this North vs South differentiation in Caucuses-Anatolian Eastern Euro populations caused by Basal Eurasian looks like an East vs West difference between WHG and EHG. But WHG and EHG are separate, divergent populations, differentiated by a lack of Basal Eurasian in WHG which EHG gets from Iran.

vAsiSTha said...

"Please go and see a psychiatrist."

Lol.
Heres the clincher. The 5 Q1a1b elites (Q-M25) found in Khvalynsk have origin in Turkmenistan. Highest frequency of Q-M25 is in Iranian Turkmens @42%, and afghan turkmens at 32%.

This paper from 2017 concludes the origin of Q-M25 to be central asia. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5846874/

"Q1a1b-M25 reaches its highest frequency in Turkmen (34–43%) and shows low frequencies in other Eurasian populations (Underhill et al. 2000; Malyarchuk et al. 2011; Zhong et al. 2011)"

"Therefore, we proposed that Q1a1b-M25 and Q1a2-M346 had migrated from Central Asia–Southern Siberia to Central Europe at least 4 KYA."

Chew on that

Rob said...

@ Archi

Either way you look at it, khvakysnk is considerably younger than 5000 BC. You can’t just keep lying through your teeth.

“ However, you should subtract approximately the same amount from the dates of any other burial.”
Nope. Because not everyone ate the same amount of fish. Surely even you can understand that.

Anonymous said...

Rob said...
"Either way you look at it, khvakysnk is considerably younger than 5000 BC. You can’t just keep lying through your teeth."

You're lying here, you're lying directly from the text. You explicitly stated that the Khvalynsk reservoir effect is 700 years old. That there's a direct lie. I never claimed it wasn't there. You're lying when you say I denied it. I immediately wrote that the date of the beginning of Khvalynsk culture 5200-5000 years, from which you have to subtract 200 years. 5200 years for example you will find in Mathieson 2015:

Russia Khvalynsk II, Volga River, Samara [I0433 / SVP 46] 5200-4000 BCE

You don't understand the texts and you're cheating directly from the texts.

Anonymous said...

vAsiSTha said...
Lol. "Heres the clincher. The 5 Q1a1b elites (Q-M25)"


Neolithic Ust’-Belaya Russia Ust’-Belaya II, Angara river [I7336 / Mos111] 6300 – 6210 calBP M Q1a1b

You use rumors and confuse ISOGG, it's in ISOGG 2016 Q1a1b M25, but ISOGG 2019 Q1a1b
B143/YP1469, according to the old one Q1a1a.

Here we are almost certainly talking about Q1a2-M346, the new Q1b.

gamerz_J said...

@Simon Stevin

"What papers have ever suggested East Asian in EHG? I have not seen a single paper ever suggest that. How do you know that it is “East Asian,” the latest publications on East Asia have made some distinctions between East Eurasian and East Asian, and maybe there is a very deep Upper Paleolithic, Ancient South Indian/Asian relation, but I have yet to see any paper claim AEA in EHG."

Lazaridis (2018) and 1 more than I honestly can't remember rn. Also Narasimhan et al (2019) shows something of a WSHG-EHG cline but he does not really justify it, unless I missed something. Still, many others don't show any East Asian as you mentioned with some hints of an CHG-like component in EHG instead.

Can you please expand on the AASI connection? I am not aware of any with EHG.

As per Davidski's post however, there is some East Asian connection in Khvalynsk.

@epoch

"Iran Neolithic is defined as Iranian-like HG + Anatolian by a number of papers."
The Zagros farmers? Interesting, which papers you mean? Lazaridis (2016)?

@mzp1

"But WHG and EHG are separate, divergent populations, differentiated by a lack of Basal Eurasian in WHG which EHG gets from Iran."

Why not the Caucasus or a related population in the area? I'd assume that the CHG-like ancestry in EHG is not too dissimilar to that in Yamnaya. It is possible that they were some CHG-like populations north of the Caucasus for a quite a while, I am not sure how parsimonious the (specifically) EHG-Iran cline is. Also, EHG and CHG are closer than EHG and Iran_N, if you were referring to that and not a general Iranian-related signal.


mzp1 said...

@gamer_j,

"I am not sure how parsimonious the (specifically) EHG-Iran cline is. Also, EHG and CHG are closer than EHG and Iran_N".

It's really simple when you understand the Caucuses Populations contained two types of ancestry around 10,000BC. One is Basal Eurasian from the South (East) also with affinity to African. Caucus Hunter Gather (CHG1) is the other, spread out around the whole of the Caucuses, into Southern and Eastern Europe. It is ancestral to Villabruna, El-Miron and WHG, but also Dzuduana and CHG and EHG. Iran_N has the most Basal Eurasian.

CHG: Kotias and Satsurbli - CHG1 + ANE + BE
Iran_N: CHG1 + More BE


EHG is just a population found North of the Steppe with ANE + CHG1 + BE (between CHG and Iran_)

So EHG can be modelled with some amount of Kotias vs Iran_N to get the right amount of BE vs CHG1. It's doesn't matter if its a bit closer to Kotias vs Iran_N, that is just because Iran_N is a more southern population. However, there is CHG1 in Central Asia different to that of Iran_N, so those EHG samples would of formed in Central Asia, which is why Karelia and Samara HG (EHG) take Baikal_EN, because Baikal is on the Iranian, CHG1-ANE cline.

If you look at Extended Data Figure 6:, https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1.full#F1
It is quite clear.

Karelia and Samara HG take Baikal EN because they need an Eastern source of CHG1 or Dzuduana like Ancestry because the nearby ones are not suitable. EHG and Yamna both come fom the same direction, which is why both are closer to each other than to Latvian HG or Loschor.

If there was older CHG1 North of the Caucuses we wouldn't have ANE-WHG and ANE-EHG based populations, we would have cluster with ANE mixing into something in between WHG and EHG. But that cluster does not exist North of the Caucuses.

The entire population history of the Caucuses and Eurasia is based on two routes of Caucausian and ANE mixture, one East of the Caucuses and one West, but nothing in the middle.

Simon_W said...

@ambron "The close position on the PCA of Eastern Poles, Northern Ukrainians, Belarusians and Western Russians does not result from the origin of one population, but from a similar process of creating these populations - the assimilation of the Balts by the genetic Western Slavs."

But the Romans wrote that the Burgundians were living between the Oder and the Vistula, and the Lugii and the Vandals just south of the Burgundians. Moreover the original Baltic settlement area as suggested by hydronomy and place names looks like this: https://justpaste.it/2a3jz
So at most it could account for effects in Northeast Polish DNA. But e.g. my girlfriend is from Tarnow in southeastern Poland, and in Global25 she's closest to Russians from Smolensk, followed by Belarus.

Davidski said...

@vAsiSTha

Khvalynsk has nothing to do with Turkmenistan.

This is just your personal fantasy. The sooner you realize this the better for you.

ambron said...

Simon, southeast Poles usually look genetically like Western Slavs - the closest to them Slovaks. But Poles from the north and Ruthenians also came there (Lemkos, Boykos). You must meet your girlfriend's ancestors.

As I wrote earlier, the genetic Slavs (now Slavic markers haplo and auto) co-created in ancient times various cultural circles - Germanic, Celtic, Baltic, Dacian, Thracian, Sarmatian, Venetian and Slavic.

vAsiSTha said...

@archi
"Here we are almost certainly talking about Q1a2-M346, the new Q1b."

No. we are talking about Q1a1b, recently classified as Q1a2 or Q-M25 by ISOGG, which has been found in Khvalynsk 4 samples, 2 each from Ekaterinovsky Cape and Khlopkov Bugor (according to a prominent online adna database).
This has origin in central asia and finds max frequency in northeast Iranian and afghan turkmens at 40 and 30% respectively as is mentioned in the paper i linked above.

map of dispersal of Q https://imgur.com/jChwoS6. notice that M25 is from east of caspian.

Davidski said...

@vAsiSTha

The Khvalynsk Q are actually M25+ and L716+. The oldest instances of these markers are in samples from Western Siberia dated to just before the Khvalynsk period.

In other words, the Khvalynsk Q-M25 is from Siberia and has nothing to do with the spread of southern ancestry into the Eneolithic steppe.

Turkmens are a modern population with a lot of recent Siberian ancestry, so that's why they have a lot of Q-M25.

vAsiSTha said...

L716 is just the equivalent SNP of M25, not downstream. So it is just Q1a2 acc to ISOGG.

The Q1a2 in turkmen is not recent. TMRCA of Q-M25 is 15000bce, so its very old and likely spread to a vast region without leaving autosomal ancestry.

Q1a2a2b~ M25>L712>F4747>F5005* has been found in Kokcha, Uzbekistan I8506 1700bce under the Steppe_mlba_oBmac label. mtDna is T, from the steppe. This is prior to the east asian influence on the region.

Q1a2a2b is also found in the low steppe Loebanr_IA swat sample I12134.

Davidski said...

@vAsiSTha

You don't understand. There are Neolithic forager samples from just east of Khvalynsk in Siberia that belong to M25/L716.

Good luck trying to explain that Khvalynsk M25 isn't from this population but from a group in Central Asia with a lot of southern ancestry, with I8506 1700bce as your evidence for their existence.

Last time I looked, 5000 BCE was older than 1700 BCE.

You're a clown. I've seen plenty of clowns like you over the years.

Anonymous said...

@vaThara

"No. we are talking about Q1a1b, recently classified as Q1a2 or Q-M25 by ISOGG"

No. Q1a2 is recently classified as M346 by ISOGG 2016!!!!! Q1a1b is not M25 now by ISOGG 2017!

You don't know anything again and you don't want to take the information.

" which has been found in Khvalynsk 4 samples, 2 each from Ekaterinovsky Cape and Khlopkov Bugor (according to a prominent online adna database)."

Don't give away your personal fantasies as supposedly some kind of database when they're not there yet! There's no such data, don't make false rumors.

Anonymous said...

Mesolithic Latvia Zvejnieki [I4550 / ZVEJ3] 6000-5100 BCE M Q1a2 Q1a:CTS1845:14092227G->C;
Neolithic Ust'-Belaya Russia Ust’-Belaya II, Angara river [I7759 / Mos82] 7160 – 6910 calBP M Q1a2
Neolithic Isakovo Russia Ust'-Ida [DA355, UID_1988.014, Grave 14] 4750 ± 70 BP M Q1a2-M346-L892
Bronze Steppe Maykop Russia Sharakhalsun 6 [SA6004 / kurgan 2, grave 18, BZNK-003/4] 3336-3105 cal BC (4500±40BP ,GIN-12401) M Q1a2 Q-L933
Copper Afanasievo Russia Altai Mountains, Yenisey River, left bank of Karasuk tributary, Karasuk III [I3950 / StPet48, collection 6612, individual 2] 2878-2636 calBCE (4160±25 BP, PSUAMS-1955) M Q1a2 Y2659>Z5902>Y6802 (>Y6826)
Copper Afanasievo Russia Altai Mountains, Yenisey River, left bank of Karasuk tributary, Karasuk III [I3949 / StPet47, collection 6612, individual 1] son.I3388_son.I3950_brother.I6714 2837-2498 calBCE (4075±20 BP, PSUAMS-2292) M Q1a2 Y2659>Z5902>Y6802
Copper Afanasievo Russia Altai Mountains, Yenisey River, left bank of Karasuk tributary, Karasuk III [I6714 / StPet49, collection 6612, individual 3] son.I3388_son.I3950_brother.I3949 2617-2472 calBCE (4020±25 BP, PSUAMS-3909) M Q1a2 Y2659>Z5902>Y6802
Bronze Okunevo Russia Syda 5, Tumen, IPDN 6/H, Kurgan 3 [RISE718] 2573-2348 cal BC (3964 ± 31 BP, UBA-31600) Q1a2a1c-L330
Bronze Okunevo Russia Syda 5, Tumen, IPDN 6/H, Kurgan 4 [RISE719] Q1a2a1c-L330-L334
Bronze Okunevo Russia Okunev Ulus, 6160-33 [RISE664] 2459-2206 cal BC (3850 ± 38 BP, UBA-31593) M Q1a2a1c-L330
Bronze Okunevo Russia Okunev Ulus, 6160-32 [RISE662] 2290-1949 cal BC (3718 ± 59 BP, UBA-31592) M Q1a2a1-L54
Bronze Okunevo Russia Verkhni Askiz, 7053-49, kurgan 2, grave 4, scull 7 [RISE670] 2141-1885 cal BC (3635 ± 50 BP, UBA-31595) Q1a2b-L940
Bronze Okunevo Russia Verkhni Askiz, 7053-61, kurgan 2, grave 8, sk.3 [RISE672] Q1a2-M346
Bronze Okunevo Russia Verkhni Askiz, 7053-85, kurgan 2, grave 21, sk.1 [RISE674] 2281-1976 cal BC (3719 ± 46 BP, UBA-31596) M Q1a2-M346
Copper Glazkovo Russia Ust'-Ida [DA343, UID_1989.019, Grave 19] 4270 ± 60 BP M Q1a2a1-L54
Copper Glazkovo Russia Ust'-Ida [DA353, UID_1989.029, Grave 29] 3870 ± 70 BP M Q1a2a-L53-L476
Copper Glazkovo Russia Ust'-Ida [DA356, UID_1994.048, Grave 48] 3854 ± 30 BP M Q1a2a-L53-L213
Copper Glazkovo Russia Ust'-Ida [DA361, UID_1993.045, Grave 45] 3760 ± 60 BP M Q1a2-M346
Copper Glazkovo Russia Shamanka II [DA337, SHA_2000.009, Grave 9] 3886 ± 21 BP M? Q1a2a-L53-L575
Copper Glazkovo Russia Shamanka II [DA338, SHA_1998.002, Grave 2] M Q1a2a-L53-L55
Copper Glazkovo Russia Shamanka II [DA335, SHA_2000.005, Grave 5] M Q1a2a-L53-L55
Copper Glazkovo Russia Shamanka II [DA339, SHA_2008.111, Grave 111] 3700 ± 33 BP M Q1a2a1c-L330-L334
Copper Glazkovo Russia Shamanka II [DA336, SHA_1998.003, Grave 3] M Q1a2a-L53-L55
Copper Glazkovo Russia Shamanka II [DA334, SHA_2008.107, Grave 107] 3764 ± 20 BP M Q1a2a-L53-L55
Bronze Sintashta Russia Kamennyi Ambar 5 Cemetery [I1017 / 978, kurgan 2, burial 16] o1 1929-1753 calBCE (3520±30 BP, Beta-436294) M Q1a2 Y2659>Z5902>Y6802>Y6826* (xY6798)
Bronze Lola Russia Nevinnomiskiy 3, kurgan 6, grave 5 [NV3001 / BZNK-312/1] 2116-1925 cal BC (3631±22BP ,MAMS29812) M Q1a2 Q-L717

vAsiSTha said...

Which are the Q1a2 Q-M25 samples just east of khvalynsk? name them

All i can find are far east siberian samples from this subclade and 1 latvian_HG to the west of khvalynsk.

When the truth finally is out, which there is enough evidence of already, you will be crying yourself to sleep every night. Now i know that Anthony will never publish those samples. those will drown his multi decadal farcical research and his quest of proving an obviously wrong theory.

zardos said...

Kotova wrote that Khvalynsk is the result of Lower Don/early Sredny Stog people marching up the the rivers, the Volga and meeing local people there, which were partly assimilating, like Olovka, Samara and the Pricaspian.
They are, as far as I can tell, not relevant for the Western groups by which they were later replaced. The centre of the steppe people was further South, in the contact zone with the Black Sea cultures.
Now my question is do we have now some sort of proof for Transcaucasian ancestry at the Lower Don? Because if we assume the main line of CHG was there since the Mesolithic, which is fine and I can agree with, we need an agent which brought the cultural innovations which we see in the early LDC settlements. And this agent might have had a demographically minimal impact, won't have brought up PIE or new dominant haplogroups, but it has to be there. Because some features of the early LDC don't look as if they would have popped up just like that among hunter fishers.
And this points to contacts of coastal people or by sea from the South. Is there such evidence?

Anonymous said...

Mesolithic Latvia Zvejnieki [I4550 / ZVEJ3] 6000-5100 BCE M Q1a2 Q1a2:M346:2887156C->G;

Davidski said...

@zardos

Now my question is do we have now some sort of proof for Transcaucasian ancestry at the Lower Don?

Yes, there is. It should be published soon I guess.

But it dates to the Maykop period as far as I know.

Anonymous said...

zardos said...
"Kotova wrote that Khvalynsk is the result of Lower Don/early Sredny Stog people marching up the the rivers, the Volga and meeing local people there, which were partly assimilating, like Olovka, Samara and the Pricaspian."

Kotova didn't write that.

"Now my question is do we have now some sort of proof for Transcaucasian ancestry at the Lower Don?"

Nothing, there' s only evidence of northern origin.

vAsiSTha said...

@archi

Mesolithic Latvia Zvejnieki [I4550 / ZVEJ3] 6000-5100 BCE M Q1a2 Q1a2:M346:2887156C->G;

M346 is no longer Q1a2. Its Q1b, completely different.
I was under the impression that Latvia_HG I4550 was also Q-M25. That's one inconsistency less.

Confirmed it with the Wei et al paper
"Additionally, the Y-chromosome of a 6000–5100 BCE sample (I4550) from Zvejnieki, Latvia has been identified as Q1-L56"
L56 and M346 are equivalent = Q1b.

Khvalynsk I0434 which i have talked about a lot in this thread is Q1a Q-F1096, the only one with additional wshg and iran ancestry among the 3 published samples and the only Q. Its likely to also be Q1a2 Q-M25 like the other unpublished ones but the snp count is very low to identify correctly.

@davidski
still waiting for the 5000bce west siberian Q1a2 sample ids.

Davidski said...

@vAsiSTha

You'll have to wait a little longer because they're not out yet. But when they do come out, you'll be scratching around for a new theory.

There's quite a bit of WSHG-related Q-M25 older than Khvalynsk.

zardos said...

@archi: "Kotova didn't write that."

Oh, really, you know everything she wrote? How would you interpret these quotes from her:

Nadja S. Kotova, The contacts of the Eastern European steppe people with the Balkan population during the transition period from Neolithic to Eneolithic, in PRÄHISTORISCHE ARCHÄOLOGIE IN SÜDOSTEUROPA - BAND 30.

"The Khvalynsk Eneolithic culture was formed in the steppe Volga basin practically simultaneously with the Sredniy Stog culture in the Don-Kalmius interflive."

"Similarity of the Khvalynsk ceramics with pottery of the Late Lower Don and Early Sredniy Stog cultures, as well as with separate vessels of the Orlovka culture allow me to assume, that its formation was connected with human migration about 5200-5150 BC, caused by gradual climate dryness. Probably, that aridity forced a part of the Early Sredniy Stog population from the steppe Don region to move in northern areas along valleys of the Don, Medveditsa and Volga."

"On the right bank of Volga the migrants met the local population of the Neolithic Orlovka culture, and probably assimilated its separate groups, as well as some southern groups of the Samara culture. As a result of those complicated processes the Khvalynsk culture was formed."

"A layer of the Khvalynsk culture at the Kombak-te site in the north-west of Pricaspian area is dated about 4880±192 BC. Probably, here the Khvalynsk population partly assimilated the native inhabitants - the population of the Neolithic Pricaspian culture."

@David: If they don't have it from the pre-Maykopian times, I guess they still don't have a good sampling from the LDC. Or its really not there and it was transmitted further South and only the CHG-rich Caucasian people made it up there with these cultural elements - without admixture. Seems to be unlikely however.

Matt said...

Whether or not it has any role in Yamnaya / CWC / etc (or their ancestry is purely from an earlier herder expansion), it makes a lot of sense with what is known that some Copper Caucasus ancestry is present at Maykop period, at least in individuals, in the interaction zones at lower Don that have described in archaeology. It never made as much sense to me that despite that apparent interaction, only such ancestry in that period would show in the Steppe_Maykop set (who would represent interactions of Caucasian complex with slightly earlier composites of these proto-"Western Steppe Herders" and West Siberians, that must have been beginning to develop in the desert zones around the Caspian Sea, where there was a reserve of "West Siberian HG").

Separately, if these 5000 BCE samples are really close to the Yamnaya, then it'll be really great in terms of being able to dispense with arguing out these complicated often "black box" qpAdm models and sort of guessing based on PCA shifts, for just doing D(X,Y;Yamnaya_Pop,5000BCE) and then determining which populations, if any at all, they show significant stats for.

zardos said...

By the way, the admixture Kotova proposes would also explain the observed pattern of a drecreased EHG:CHG ratio. The real steppe ancestral component would have been formed earlier, with the earliest Southern Khavalynsk people still having it, but while moving North, because of the admixtrue, the ratio decreased, while it was stable in SSC, Yamnaya and CWC.

Compare with this quote from
Dispersals and Diversification: Linguistic and Archaeological Perspectives on the Early Stages of Indo-European, 2019. p. 35 ff.
"A population showing a mixture fo EHG AND CHG ancestries existed in the Volga-Caucasus steppes during the Eneolithic period. This Yamnaya-like admixture was established before 4500 BC, the approximate of Khvalynsk. […]

The percentage of CHG ancestry declines south-to-north, from Progress-2, where CHG is 30-50 %, to Khvalynsk (CHG 20-30 %) to Ekaterinovka (perhaps 5 % but not yet published). Eneolithic individuals generally had less CHG than Yamnaya, but their EHG/CHG admixture ranges overlapped with those from Yamnaya samples, according to Wang et al. The Khvalynsk-Progress-2 mating network makes a plausible genetic ancestor Yamnaya, but Yamnaya was more homogeneous genetically than the Eneolithic cemeteries, particularly in male genetic triats on the Y-chromosome."

From every perspective, Khvalynsk is no major concern for the PIE question, but just a LDC/SSC offshot moving up the Volga.

Anonymous said...

@zardos

It is precisely that Kotova did not write that they moved from the Lower Don, but only about the steppe region of the Don. At the same time, she does not consider the question of Late Lower Don pottery origin. But the Pricaspian culture comes from the North (from Khvalynsk), not from the Lower Don. Kotova can not contradict the facts.

Davidski said...

@zardos

It's actually true that the oldest Khvalynsk samples generally have the most CHG-related ancestry, while the younger ones less.

Slumbery said...

@Zardos

"Finno-Ugrian and Turkic people Russia seem to have excess EHG, but Baltics have little of it?

In the past I actually argued here that for example Karelians have EHG ancestry, but I am reconsidering that recently. Saami have SHG ancestry (probably from a population that is more eastern than Motala, but still not really EHG). All the others in the western region are pretty much seem to be the two way mixture of an ancient Estonian-like population + an ancient Saami/Levanluhta_IA-like population. I am more and more convinced that the EHG ancestry I saw earlier just a mirage created by more recent Siberian ancestry + incorrect assumptions in the test setups.

@Vincent

This WSHG as Yamnaya ancestor thing is something that came up here in the past. I have the same deep ancestry based argument against it as back then. When modelled with AG3, WSHG has an excess East Siberian ancestry above AG3. Yamnaya does not. Neither any of the Paleolithic and Mesolithic European foragers. Steppe Maykop does and it is pretty unique in this regard. No such East Siberian ancestry is detectable in Yamnaya, so WSHG cannot be an important ancestor of them. Probably because the vast majority of the Paleolithic Siberian "ANE" ancestry of EHG, Yamnaya, etc. had arrived into Europe before the wave of East Siberian found in WSHG reached their source region.

zardos said...

@Archi: "It is precisely that Kotova did not write that they moved from the Lower Don, but only about the steppe region of the Don. At the same time, she does not consider the question of Late Lower Don pottery origin. But the Pricaspian culture comes from the North (from Khvalynsk), not from the Lower Don. Kotova can not contradict the facts."

Of course, but you seem to have questioned the origin and mixtures of Khvalynsk. The SSC/early Khvalynsk people met the Pricaspian people up the river, that's what she's saying. Nobody said Pricaspian came from the Lower Don, but Khvalynsk did, as an early SSC offshot.

@Matt: That also answers your question about forager EHG admixture during the steppe people's expansion: Khvalynsk had it, but Khvalynsk itself was largely replaced, so it didn't have a significant impact on the long run. The relatively stable EHG:CHG ratio proves it.

mzp1 said...

The stuff I've posted above regarding the Eastern provenance of EHG and later Yamna, Corded Ware etc steppe groups is pretty clear from reading Laziridis. It is no wonder Reich holds the position Yamna came from Iran, because this is strongly suggested in the paper. I don't see the Reich lab changing their position, as the data seems pretty clear on it. Would be interesting how it plays out with Anthony contributing to the literature, he himself doesn't seem to get it and still thinks the origin must be in Eastern Europe. I think the Reich lab know the truth but are they willing to let Anthony make a fool out of himself.

Davidski said...

@mzp1

Yamnaya's got nothing to do with Iran.

At best, and this is the very best possible scenario for all of you Near Eastern and Central Asian patriots, it might have some Maykop ancestry.

The Reich Lab team will figure this out at some point, if they haven't already.

Matt said...

@zardos, we'll see how much, if any, when a full sequence comes through. I wouldn't suggest extra EHG via Khvalynsk made large contributions, but 5-10% of later Yamnaya/Afanasievo/Poltavka/CW_early ancestry seems possible.

There's some substructure in the f3 stats among Yamnaya samples we have: https://imgur.com/a/qDNv185 (even removing shotgun samples). Not large but may be a ghost trace of something homogenized.

epoch said...

You can get distance of 3% without anything from BMAC:

[1] "distance%=3.078"

RUS_Khvalynsk_En_scaled:I0434

RUS_Khvalynsk_En,65.2
Satsurblia_scaled,19.6
RUS_AfontovaGora3,13
RUS_Tyumen_HG,2.2

So if an actual Eneolithic sample such as from pre-BMAC Namazga_Tepe doesn't do better than this I think it doesn't make a case at all.

vAsiSTha said...

@epoch

Notwithstanding the fact that AG3 and satsurblia are extremely ancient unfit for use, neverthe less central asian pops give better results.

your model
Target: RUS_Khvalynsk_En_scaled:I0434
Distance: 3.0409% / 0.03040907
63.6 RUS_Khvalynsk_En
19.8 Satsurblia_scaled
16.6 RUS_AfontovaGora3
0.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG

With Aigyrzhal - better model
Target: RUS_Khvalynsk_En_scaled:I0434
Distance: 2.5974% / 0.02597402
63.6 RUS_Khvalynsk_En
16.2 KGZ_Aigyrzhal_BA
11.2 Satsurblia_scaled
9.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3
0.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG

If you consider Aigyrzhal as tainted with minor EHG, then using Sarazm which has absolutely 0 EHG and is absolutely unrelated to PC steppe

Target: RUS_Khvalynsk_En_scaled:I0434
Distance: 2.5898% / 0.02589766
66.6 RUS_Khvalynsk_En
12.4 TJK_Sarazm_En
11.2 RUS_AfontovaGora3
9.8 Satsurblia_scaled
0.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG

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