Tuesday, July 21, 2020
The oldest R1a to date
My popular map of the oldest instances of Y-haplogroup R1a in the ancient DNA record has a new entry: PES001 from the recent Saag et al. preprint. PES001 comes from a burial site in what is now northwestern Russia and is dated to a whopping 10785–10626 calBCE.
Indeed, I'm not aware of any R1a samples older than PES001 among the treasure trove of thousands of ancient samples waiting to be published. So it's likely that this individual will remain the oldest member of our R1a clan for some years to come.
See also...
Y-haplogroup R1a and mental health
Like three peas in a pod
The mystery of the Sintashta people
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229 comments:
1 – 200 of 229 Newer› Newest»What language did PES001 speak?
Unknowable?
Hard to tell, but with some likelihood in his language mother was ‘mama’, first person m*, second person t*, and negative particle -ne and who? was k*?
I guess you'll be happy with how the business of R1a evolves, Indians have a little more difficult to prove a South Asian origin for your lineage.
I hope you make another map with the oldest cases of R1b (please don't forget Villabruna) we, at the moment are Italian and you are Russian.
Perhaps then you will realize that the genetic histories of these two lineages are very different and that the Kurganist obsession with the steppes no longer makes much sense
Could you post the preliminary coordinates for this individual?
How does this sample measure autosomally?
Has it been transferred to Gedmatch?
Do persons now living have 'significant' IBD matching?
Is this particular branch of R1a ancestral to the clades found in Corded Ware and latterly extant in Europe and Asia?
@Gaska
The claim being made is that the vast majority of R1b and R1a in the world today can be PROXIMATELY traced to the expansion of Pontic-Caspian steppe pastoralists, which is true beyond any reasonable doubt. The ULTIMATE origin of the R1 haplogroups is irrelevant to the proximate claim. So why don't you find another hobby already? Your bitterness that things clearly didn't go your way on this topic is beyond embarrassing. You're basically "man yells at cloud" at this point. Find another hobby.
@Davidski
“What language did PES001 speak?”
We will probably never know for sure, but we can speculate.
Looking at the Native North American Languages:
http://www.languagesgulper.com/eng/Northmap.html
The area occupied by PES001 language by environmental analogy would probably correspond to Algonkin/ Algonquian languages.
Let’s assume that the PES001 language belongs to hypothetical Slavonquian languages which occupy by analogy similar area of Eastern Europe.
Looking at the autosomal DNA Slavonquian languages are most likely EHG languages:
https://i.postimg.cc/Wb3SjdtT/screenshot-91.png
https://i.postimg.cc/zGScGVTB/Slavonquian-languages.jpg
Looking at how CWC genes were formed:
https://i.postimg.cc/7Zc3B77g/CWC-origin.jpg
I would think that Indo-Slavonic languages could be derived from Slavonquian languages. R1a is additional support for this hypothesis
This is only my speculation.
He spoke a Proto-Indo-European dialect of Nostratic language.
About Alexandria, the fact is that on this site there is a settlement of Abashevo culture, and if there is a settlement, then there should be a burial place. Or there's a contamination. Or this sample is contaminated.
According to yfull R1a and R1b formed 22800 ybp. R1a's TMRCA is 17300 ybp and R1b's is 20400 ybp. So where were they born and what did they do in the thousands of years leading up these samples?
@Davidski
What languge? Almost certainly some lost language that can't be related to any known language today.
If you asked me about a Mesolithic Ukrainian forager with R1a circa 5000BCE I'd have to think about my answer carefully...
Some notes regarding numbers on map:
1. PES001 is not a direct ancestor to most of modern R1a1 people, but a very close relative. Looking in Ytree - descendants of PES001 are living in wide area nowadays far away from their ancestor and they are not so many, compared to main bunch of R1a1 people. Also, doesn't look like origin place for R1a people - besides R1a5 is a later branch-off from R1a, that seems to have wandered into north.
2. Black Sea Deluge happened around the same time. There is not much known about people, who were living in now sunken territories. Logic dictates, that R1a might have been those people, as there are stories about deluges from nearby populations. Any ancient genetic material from those sunken territories is now lost to the sea and most probably that will be a reason for a gap in understanding of past.
4. Kurgan cultures appear slightly later than this sample.
5. Time when Cucuteni-Trypillia culture expands into Ukraine from Romania. This is the culture, that so called Kurgan cultures takes over.
7. CWC appear later than this date.
My wild guess(12 000 years is kinda very very distant past to talk about history of modern languages) PES001 might have been speaking similar language to what people were speaking who were living on pre-flooded northern shores of Black Sea. Probably something similar to IE. Or maybe not - maybe PES001 was raised by his local U4a female, who did not spoke language of his ancestors from south. Not Russian, that is for sure.
If PES001 spoke IE, were there separate language families for Q and R1b populations of this era?
Villabruna is not the standard for a WHG since it has ANE admixture.
Po polsku :)
@Sofia Aurora
That comment was too political for this blog.
@Jatt_Scythian
R1 and R2 somewhere near the Altai Mountains and R1a and R1b somewhere between the Altai and the Southern Urals. Maybe.
@Davidski,
R1b1a was originally a lot more common and widespread than R1a. Take of that what you will.
@Ric
There are no traces of R1a or R1b in Central Asia that far back.
R1a only shows up in Asia during the Bronze Age, and that's including in all of the pre-publication data.
@Davidski
There are no "no traces", but no data. Central Asia has nothing to do with this, but from Siberia we have exactly 0 samples between the Altai and the Urals until the Copper Age (either for Central Asia).
First for Central Asia:
Copper Turkmenistan Turkestan, Tepe Anau [I4085 / ANAU1] 4000-3000 BCE M R2a3a
Copper Turkmenistan Turkestan, Tepe Anau [I4087 / ANAU3] 4000-3000 BCE M R2a
@Davidski
So does that mean what entered Europe was only R1 or even R?
OT: Some potentially interesting abstracts I can't remember seeing posted up before:
https://meso2020.sciencesconf.org/325563 "Ancient genomes from Iberia reveal regional and local scale population dynamics of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers" Rita Peyroteo Stjerna - "Recent archaeogenetic studies have revealed that Mesolithic hunter-gatherers in the IberianPeninsula carried two lines of genetic ancestry, suggesting a chronologically and geographically complex process of population admixture. One of these lineages was previously identified in late Pleistocene individuals dated to 19,000-14,000 BP (Spain, France, Belgium, Germany), associated with the Upper Palaeolithic Magdalenian complex in western Europe. The second lineage, which was predominant in western and central Europe, is defined by post-Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) individuals associated with Azilian, Epipaleolithic and Mesolithic contexts in Spain, France, Italy, Switzerland Luxembourg, and Hungary, dated between 14,000 and 7,000 BP. While in Iberia the late Pleistocene lineage survived during the Mesolithic, throughout western and central Europe it became largely unrepresented, asa post-LGM ancestry became dominant and widespread.
In this study, we investigate the hunter-gatherer populations living in Iberia after the Last Glacial Maximum, c. 9100-7300 cal BP during the Early and the Late Mesolithic. We combine newly generated genome sequences with previously published data from Mesolithic Europe to estimate the extent of population admixture, continuity and isolation across time in different subregions of the Iberian Peninsula. To better resolve the chronology of events leading to the survival of both genetic lineages in Mesolithic Iberia, all newly reported individuals were directly dated.
....
Our study provides insight into the role of Iberia as a glacial refugium by further exploring the events that lead to the observed genetic patterns in this region during the Mesolithic. Our approach focuses not only on adding geographical and chronological resolution to supra-regional processes, but also on understanding local-scale dynamics of the last hunter-gatherers in Iberia."
https://meso2020.sciencesconf.org/325338 - Investigating sociocultural patterns of the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers of Téviec and Hoëdic, Brittany, France: an archeogenomic approach - The Mesolithic sites of Téviec and Hoëdic in southern Brittany, France are known for the unusually well-preserved human burials, along with the Mesolithic coastal cemeteries of southern Scandinavia and Portugal. They are crucial for investigating sociocultural and demographic processes in the Late Mesolithic of Atlantic Europe and critical in any discussion about the expansion of the Neolithic in Brittany.
We conducted a palaeogenomic study of nine human burials in Téviec and Hoëdic. All individuals yielded authentic ancient DNA, which reflects the good preservation of the human remains at these sites. We present the results of ancient DNA analysis along with new and direct radiocarbon dates and stable isotopes of carbon and nitrogen. ... The authors (of a previous study) suggested that the differences observed in the stable isotopes may result from an exogamous, patrilocal marriage pattern, with women marrying in from other locations, including some more inland communities. Due to the chronological overlap between these hunter-gatherer burials and pioneer farmer sites in the region, it was also suggested that some of these women could originate from Neolithic groups. We test this hypothesis by addressing potential differences in ancestry of biologically identified males and females at both sites, by comparison with previously published datasets, to investigate potential patrilocal marriage systems and Mesolithic-Neolithic contacts.
https://meso2020.sciencesconf.org/325710 - "Late Mesolithic or Early Neolithic: was there the “Neolithic hiatus” in the North Caucasus?" (Non-adna).
@Jatt_Scythian
Probably as R.
I think R1a and R1b formed in the Balkans or surrounds.
BTW, the main mtDNA signature of ANE ancestry in Europe is mtDNA U4. But also to lesser extant mtDNA R1.
Also, has anyone taken into account SHG had lots of ANE/EHG ancestry but 100% Y DNA I2. Also, vast majority of their mtDNA was of EHG origin. Looks like sex bias admixture.
@Davidski judging by the location of R2 people today, R being ANE lineage, I would say R entered europe as pre R1 and was EHG like. He certainly did have some snps related to R1.
Davidski said...
"I think R1a and R1b formed in the Balkans or surrounds."
Neolithic Kitoi Russia Lokomotiv, Irkutsk [LOK_1980.006 and LOK_1981.024.01] 5500-4885 BC M R1a1-M17 2 samples F 2 samples
Botai Kazakhstan Botai, Excavation 14, 1983 [BOT14] 3371-3354 cal BC (4598 ± 46 BP, UBA-32662) M R1b1a1-M478 R1b1 Damgaard 2018
Botai Kazakhstan [TU45 / BOT14] 3632–3100 calBC (4620 ± 80 BP, OxA-4316) M R1b1a1 K1b2 Jeong 2019
@Matt
Thanks. This is very interesting.
The main common features of lithic industries on wide territories including North and South Caucasus, Crimea, Central Asia is the emergence of pressure technique and high/short trapezoids (transverse arrowheads). The above features appeared at about 8,5-10 k. cal BC in NW Caucasus. We can trace the development and transformation of the trapezoidal transverse arrowhead type in Neolithic industries with complete “package” including pottery and domestication.
https://meso2020.sciencesconf.org/325710
@Samuel Andrews
during mesolithic and early neolithic R1b seems to have been victimized by G2a and I2 (both with farmer and WHG admix). We had to wait for L23 to kick their ass back lol.
In order to divide into R1a and R1b in the Balkans, R1 must have lived in the Balkans at least 23,000 years ago. We need ANE to live 25,000 years ago in the Balkans.
But ANE Palaeolithic Russia Mal'ta, Baikal, Siberia [MA1] 22570-22140 calBCE (20240±60 BP, UCIAMS-79666) M R*
While the oldest R1b samples are found squarely in europe - italy, latvia, serbia, romania etc, keep in mind that R1b2 (Ph155) with formation date 20000 years ago tree is situated very far away in tian shan region on the western border of china.
As such, Ph155 has nothing to do with europe. There are some lessons to be learned from this.
@M M------ said "The claim being made is that the vast majority of R1b and R1a in the world today can be PROXIMATELY traced to the expansion of Pontic-Caspian steppe pastoralists, which is true beyond any reasonable doubt. The ULTIMATE origin of the R1 haplogroups is irrelevant to the proximate claim. So why don't you find another hobby already? Your bitterness that things clearly didn't go your way on this topic is beyond embarrassing. You're basically "man yells at cloud" at this point. Find another hobby.
Ha HA HA HA HA JA JA JA JA JA JA
The ultimate origin is irrelevant? Did you drink something inappropriate? Perhaps for an American Greek the ultimate origin of R1b is inadequate, BUT, for a Spanish Basque it is quite important, so if you do not mind, we will continue investigating which is the last origin that is inappropriate for you
Some of your comments seem interesting to me, but I think you have the typical Greek-Jewish complex of having to advise others what to do. I will never quit the genetics hobby, least of all because a Greek dares to tell me to. It is better that you dedicate yourself to investigate your mental problems, for the moment R1b is absolutely western and has absolutely nothing to do with Ukraine or the steppes
Do you understand what I mean Greek friend?
Take care of your problems. and before telling anyone to find another hobby, think that your genetic knowledge is irrelevant, and that you have NO IDEA of the origin of my lineage
@Samuel Andrews
"BTW, the main mtDNA signature of ANE ancestry in Europe is mtDNA U4. But also to lesser extant mtDNA R1.
Also, has anyone taken into account SHG had lots of ANE/EHG ancestry but 100% Y DNA I2. Also, vast majority of their mtDNA was of EHG origin. Looks like sex bias admixture."
SHG also had pre-I1 (but that of course doesn't change the picture).
But... what mtDNA (apart from U4) do you count as EHG? Among SHGs we currently have:
2 U2e1
3 U4a (of which 2 U4a1 and 1 U4a2)
13 U5a (of which 6 U5a1 and 5 U5a2)
@R1bPussyDestroyer
Sorry for the inconvenience, but you'll have to change your nick when posting here.
@ Gaska
So,what the big duel if your lineage it is not western?Do you really mind if R1b coming from somwehere close to Pontic-Caspian Steppe?Even if R1b is native to EU that means zero,because as a Spanish yourself your autosomal is definitely not native in EU with exception your decent WHG admixture.What about the rest?Your EEF has its roots to modern Turkey.Your EHG/CHG admixture it is also coming from modern Russia/Ukraine and if we take serious your north african/ssa admixture that we can found in modern Iberians then you are 1/4 native European to your autosomal admixture,even if we say that R1b is native to EU.You are worse than those trolls from South Asia who claim R1a as their own..xD!!!
Siberia will be full of C and Q1
@Davidski
Certain Joe Flood comments in a paper draft from year 2019 that "the oldest ancient R1a so far found is...near the Danube mouth about 8500 BC" Do you know that sample?
On the other hand, the Aleksandriya individual (I6561) you mention harboring R1a was contaminated in the analysis, and David Reich reported that in last March as "questionable with a damage of 0.028". Can we still trust it´s within R1a haplogroup? Was the damage solved?
@Carlos Aramayo
Joe Flood is an idiot, so keep that in mind. Also, obviously there are no R1a samples from the Danube mouth dating to 8,500 BCE, or anything even close to that.
In regards to the Alexandria sample, if it's seriously contaminated then it's strange that it doesn't really resemble any modern samples and belongs to R1a-Z93, which is extremely rare in modern Eastern Europe.
@Gaska
"BUT, for a Spanish Basque it is quite important, so if you do not mind, we will continue investigating which is the last origin that is inappropriate for you"
Unless he's V88 or some other rare lineage, your hypothetical Basque's R1b can be proximately traced to the Pontic-Caspian steppe. That's all there is to it. And the same is true of Greek R1b, by the way.
"I think you have the typical Greek-Jewish complex of having to advise others what to do. I will never quit the genetics hobby, least of all because a Greek dares to tell me to. It is better that you dedicate yourself to investigate your mental problems, for the moment R1b is absolutely western and has absolutely nothing to do with Ukraine or the steppes"
I think Luke Skywalker said it best: "Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong."
"Take care of your problems. and before telling anyone to find another hobby, think that your genetic knowledge is irrelevant, and that you have NO IDEA of the origin of my lineage"
If you're like most R1bs in Europe, I'm pretty sure I do. Spoiler: the Pontic-Caspian steppe.
@Angantry,
I consider U5a, U4, U2e to be East/Central European lineages.
If you look at Mesolithic mtdna you see that 80%+ west of Poland carry U5b and 70%+ east of Germany carry those three U5a U4 U2e.
I can show specific stats later. Anyways there's also Y DNA difference. West of Germany a large percentage carry I2a1 while essentially none do east of Germany. A large percentage east of Germany carry R1b1a while essentially none do west of Germany.
So I see a deep distinction between west and east hunter gatherers. Even the WHG in eastern/Central probably isn't from western wester.
In Scandinavian Hunter gatherers we see Western y DNA (mainly I2a1) and Eastern/Central mtdna.
Imo SHG is mix of multiple hunter gatherers populations from Western Europe, Central and Russia (who came via northern route). But their Y DNA seems to be entirely from western hunter gatherers.
@Davidski
Why the Balkans?
@Jatt_Scythian
Why not the Balkans, considering that the oldest R1b is from Italy and the oldest R1a from northwestern Russia and Ukraine?
I think an ANE marker would come from somewhere richer in ANE than the Balkans.
@Ryan
The sort of high ANE that characterizes the Mesolithic to Early Bronze Age populations of the Eastern European forest zone and the Caspian steppe may have been associated with Y-haplogroup Q before R1a and R1b spread into these regions.
But I don't know. It's hard to say what happened without direct evidence from ancient DNA, and that's still lacking.
Weren’t there some fairly ANE-rich populations near the Balkans?
Y-hg R1 and some mtDNA (e.g. U4) could be from Black Sea refuge
David, since the Copper Age R1a is also widespread in Central Europe. Do you really think that in the Iron Age Poland could have been an island devoid of R1a in Central Europe? The cremation rite was dominant here, so the few skeletal burials may be unrepresentative.
However, if R1a did not come back to Poland until the Middle Ages, it probably did not come from the east. We have two R1a markings from the Iron Age from south (MX265 and DA197). You probably know as well as I do that the new R1a markings that are coming are from the south. So if R1a actually came back to Poland only in the Middle Ages, it is probably from the south. What do you think about it?
@ Juan
“ There's a SHG with R1b1a”
Which one?
As far as I can remember some of the skulls in Romania show more similarities to people who lived further East in Ukraine and Russia. And they were R1b. Maybe this type came from somewhere North of the Carpathians into the Balkans to form Villabruna. Maybe entering Italy from the North through Poland and Slovakia or surrounds or via a now sunken coastal Black Sea Route from the Crimea to the Danube...so somewhere closer to the Southern Urals. There are many Late Paleolithic sites in Ukraine...for me specifically the Southern Refugium theory during the LGM does not make sense. Maybe the Inuit did not get the memo ?
Some of the comments on east Baltic HGs aren’t entirely accurate
They don’t seem to have R1a; but do have R1b. They also have plenty of I2a1/2
Btw same; the iron Gates and Latvia are east of Germany; both with plenty of I2
So it’s not simply a matter of I is from the west; some of it expanded from the east as well
@ambron
Of course R1a was present during the Iron Age in Poland, and it will be found in Iron Age remains from there sooner or later.
But the question is whether the R1a subclades typical of Slavic populations were found there during the Iron Age?
@MM said Unless he's V88 or some other rare lineage, your hypothetical Basque's R1b can be proximately traced to the Pontic-Caspian steppe. That's all there is to it. And the same is true of Greek R1b, by the way. If you're like most R1bs in Europe, I'm pretty sure I do. Spoiler: the Pontic-Caspian steppe.
Do you have any convincing proof of what you are saying?
Can you tell me in which steppe culture has L51 / P312 been found?
you're just another kurganist sheep
@Rob, I am specifically referring to I2a1-P37. This is most common yhg west of Germany and is essentially none existent east of Germany.
However this could be due to founder effects in Central/East hunter gatherers.
There's western U5b in Balkan and Latvia HGs, including specific young subclades. Do there was western ancestry in them but it was not huge.
David, I understand the problem. Thanks! So now it all depends on what subclades we consider typically Slavic. Michał created such a list of them. However, there are so many Slavic mutations from the area of the turn of the eras and the first centuries of the new era that it is difficult for me to imagine that they could be concentrated in an on a alleged small area of the Proto-Slavic homeland.
@ Sam
Yes I agree overall its pretty rare, but it is in a couple of Zvenjnieki & Iron Gates, + 1 Meso Ukraine
R1b in the steppes (including mesolithic V88 in Ukraine) comes from western migrations (Balkans and Baltic) although technically those regions are eastern europe.
In what sense it was political?
It was answering Gaska's thesis which used the usual anti-kurganist political correct pseudo-arguments and propaganda in a way that DEVIOUSLY was presenting itself as "scientific"!
NOTHING FROM WHAT I WROTE WAS WRONG OR MISGUIDED!!!
And i did not insult, swear or do any moral damage to anyone!
WHY WAS MY COMMENT BANNED?
From the 10 posts in this blogspot 8 of them are swirming with insults, swearing, and rediculization!
And from all those you saw it fit to ban my post David?
I thought that i was writing in a FREE, BRAVE AND SCIENTIFIC blog!!!
Not a dictatoral one!!!
My post was too..."political" for this site!
A very nice way to say "You have not written anything wrong or you did not swear or break any of the rules of the blog" but I BAN YOUR COMMENT BECAUSE IT WAS...UNDESIREABLE!
Thus there is political correctness in your blog!!!
Too bad that i thought different!
P.S. Gaska's comment was not political David?
Read it again!
It is political, ironic and provocative!
How did you expect to answer to someone who like a wolf in sheep's cloth uses "science" to post political correct junk?
Since you did not ban Gaska's post you should not have banned mine either!
But the problem was that my comment said REAL THINGS AND SITUATIONS and that was the real problem!
P.S.2 I HAVE READ WITH TREMENDOUS SCRUTINY THE RULES OF YOUR BLOG!
I BROKE NONE!
ANSWERING THAT MY COMMENT WAD TOO POLITICAL IT IS NOT AGAINST THE RULES OF YOUR BLOG!
YOU HAVE POSTED SEVERAL TIMES UPLOADS THAT ATTACK ARTICLES AND AUTHORS FOR POLITICAL CORRECTNESS AND BIAS IN THESEVARIOUS ARTICLES OR POSTS OF THEM!!!
DIFFERENT RULES FOR YOU, DIFFERENT RULES FOR THE REST OF US DAVID?
I spend time to write that post!
And you just banned it like it was a tincan of coca-cola!
I have posted no more than 26 posts in your entire blog!
Others have posted thousands (litteraly speaking)!!!
And they are the definition of BREAKING THE BLOG'S RULES!
BUT THEY WERE PUBLISHED!!!
Thus the reason that you banned my article was maybe because it was not coming alone with your political beliefs!
But then what's the point of inviting people to post in your blog, if you want to read only commentators with your opinion?
In concluding what was too political?
My refference to the people who were advocating the various anti-kurgan, anti-multiregional theses, etc. etc. and now instead of owing a WRITTEN APOLOGY they present themselves as..."scholars" and "masterminds"?
Or my exposure of the "sponsors" and financial promoters of these people?
I believe that what i wrote was FACTS and not politics!
Thus why was it banned?
@Sofia
This is an advice I myself often can't abide by, but going bullish is not the right method to handle Gaska and the likes. You either counter him by dismembering his bullshit analytically or you just ignore him. If you start a flame war you choose a battlefield where he is at home. (And avoiding a flame war that can possibly draw trolls here is probably the reason Dave removed your comment.)
Also I think you mis-characterize Gaska with this PC angle. At the very least he is somebody who places unhealthy emphasis on his Y-chromosome in determining his identity.
(Really, I have an R1b Y-DNA haplotype too, but it would never occur to me to refer all R1b males as "we". R1b is not a nation or a clan, even if there were transitional points in space-time when and where some subgroups were clans.)
Of course, the spread of U5a are connected to EHG, and U5b is connected to WHG. U4 is rare and connected to border of EHG and WHG. U2e isn't so connected to the components.
Mesolithic Russia Sidelkino, Samara region [Sidelkino441] 9386-9231 calBCE (9836В±48 BP, UBA-31465) U5a2
Palaeolithic Epigravettian Italy Grotta Paglicci [PA71 (8A)] 19250-18210 cal BP U5b2b
Palaeolithic Epigravettian Italy Villabruna, Sovramonte - Belluno, Veneto 12230-11830 calBCE (12140±70 BP, KIA-27004) M R1b1a U5b2b
Mesolithic Germany Blätterhöhle, Hagen [BLA 3] 9210 ± 29 BC U2e
I don't understand why people aren't just ignoring Gaska. He's obviously retarded,and I personally always just skip his posts,because they aren't worth reading.
About Y-Dna, it's highly likely, if not completely certain, that every european alive today will have direct ancestors among all major and probably most minor Y-dna haplogroups. We are all descendendants of G2a, R1b, R1a, I1, I2 etc. - folks. Obsessing about haplogroups, or even giving them characteristics or personalities, is beyond ridiculous. Get over it.
Don't believe me? Then do the math. How many ancestors did you have just 2000 years ago? How many people lived in Europe 2000 years ago?
Thinking about it, Gaska might be pureblooded R1b. He seems pretty inbred to me.
It’s now more important to understand what the patterns of U5b1, U5b2, U5b3 show
Same with U5a1 / 2
U4 is quite important & interesting
And how they help understand Genome Wide inferences
@Davidski
Why not the Balkans, considering that the oldest R1b is from Italy and the oldest R1a from northwestern Russia and Ukraine?
If we answer a "why" question with a "why not", then we can as well just trow a dart at a map, the probability of being correct would be about the same. The place where the last defining mutation happened does not need to be the same as the center of expansion and neither of them need to be geometrically central to later spread areas. Also both Villabruna and PES001 are still considerably younger than R1b and R1a.
But of course you know all of this. I am just a bit surprised why are you throwing a guess now, when you even discouraged speculations about this topic in the recent past. Do you know something?
BTW, I am skeptical about an arrival as R1, because that would put the time of arrival _during_ the LGM. Well, unless we assume that time estimations are fundamentally wrong. MA1 could be just a "conservative" side branch. I seem to remember that before the results for MA1 came out, the generally accepted estimation for R was very different, until the extent that even P was thought to be younger than MA1. So these estimations are rather fallible.
So did PES001 live in that area during the Younger Dryas, Deforested, Tundra, Periglacial type environment ? I guess whatever Language he spoke had nothing to do with Oak Trees, Apple Trees, Red Deer, Horses or Aurochs, or Wheat, Barley, Millet etc.
@EastPole
The existence of Mansi lake ~10 000 years ago and ~20 000 years ago West Siberian Glacial Lake must be taken into consideration, so if there were any big population movements, then through the Southern Urals. Caspian and Aral seas were much larger as well, so this doesn't leave much space for people to go through from Asia into Europe - whoever controlled those lands, didn't easily let through anyone else.
Looking on dispersion of Q in Europe, that looks like something that is mirroring remnants for one of R1b expansions in Europe.
It is Na-Dene and Ket that forms one Dene-Yeniseian language family. Tlingit, Wakash and Salishan also seems to belong to that language group - along with previous Arctic people, that were replaced by Innuit.
Innut-Yupik-Aleutian languages that started expansion from west to east most probably as finalized N1a expansion.
Algonquian languages expanded from est coast to the west and it is quite recent expansion, which propelled Navajo to the south and who are now occupying lands of Hopi as their own.
Slavic languages are not that old - it belongs to one of the youngest IE branches - certainly younger than Romance or Germanic languages.
This is why I say Western WHG and East/Central WHG seperated from each other over 20,000 years ago.
Italy, Epigravettian, 19,250-18,210 cal BP Paglicci71 U5b2b
Spain 18,830-18,610 cal BP Cantabria Red Lady of El Mirón U5b
WHG people existed in the Upper Paleolithic, probably in Italy and Southeast Europe. And Magdalonian which originated in Spain is part WHG.
@gL
"It is Na-Dene and Ket that forms one Dene-Yeniseian language family."
This is a hypothesis which none of the linguists supports, even those who claim the existence of the Dene-Caucasian macrofamily. This hypothesis is not supported by anything, there are a huge number of errors, it is wrong.
@Rob,
"It’s now more important to understand what the patterns of U5b1, U5b2, U5b3 show
Same with U5a1 / 2"
Agreed. mtDNA can give us clues to when and where the major post-Ice age expansions occured.
@gL
Slavic languages are not that old - it belongs to one of the youngest IE branches - certainly younger than Romance or Germanic languages.
The branching of the attested Slavic languages is certainly young, but that does not mean the branching of the proto-dialect is much younger than Romance or Germanic. Especially if we say proto Balto-Slavic.
However the idea that a language 12 000 years ago was a specific ancestor of Slavic sounds like a fairy tale.
I do not think that the question Davidski asked can be answered even theoretically. As thing stands now, PIE is ~6000 years old top and it is already a speculative approximation. (We would probably have a very hard time talking to PIE speakers using the reconstructed PIE.) Add another 6000 years we are at the time of PES001. And then we have no idea if his language had anything to do with anything extant or attested.
Samuel Andrews said...
"WHG people existed in the Upper Paleolithic, probably in Italy and Southeast Europe. And Magdalonian which originated in Spain is part WHG."
This is a complete mistake. Not lived WHG South Europe in the Upper Paleolithic until the final phase of the Paleolithic (Epigravette), this is strictly proven. It were not Magdalonian part of the WHG, this is strictly proven.
U5 is the Gravette haplogroup. U5b come from the eastern part of Gravette. Coming from the east the proto-WHG of the Epigravette Culture caught up with the U5b (>U5b1/2) and began to spread it.
They have a connection with autosomal components only in terms of where their territory was.
Something interesting when considering the Refuge Theory.
"Geo-archaeological investigations of Palaeolithic sites along the Ural Mountains – On the northern presence of humans during the last Ice Age"
Apparently Horses, Bison, Reindeer and Musk Ox could have been present in PESS001 vocabulary...? Maybe even Cave Lion. However Pymva Shor is a bit closer to the Urals.
@Slumbery said-"This is an advice I myself often can't abide by, but going bullish is not the right method to handle Gaska and the likes. You either counter him by dismembering his bullshit analytically or you just ignore him. If you start a flame war you choose a battlefield where he is at home. (And avoiding a flame war that can possibly draw trolls here is probably the reason Dave removed your comment.)
Everyone is super nervous, especially all those who have believed for years the fairy tale that Harvard has told to interpret the steppe theory-We could even say that his interpretation is a North American vision of the prehistory of Europe told by geneticists who have no idea of the European Chalcolithic-Obviously it is a respectable theory but to be universally accepted it needs convincing evidence and today there is no such evidence. All these discussions will end when someone tells us-"We have found L51 / P312 in Sredni Stog, Repin, Yamnaya, Usatovo or Catacomb, but in the meantime, everyone has the right to interpret the genetic data we have at our own discretion.
And my interpretation is very clear slumbery, and it certainly is not bullshit. I simply say that R1b is western because the oldest samples we have (Villabruna and Iboussieres) are in Western Europe. Why R1a has its origin in northern Russia thanks to PES001 and R1b does not have its origin in the west despite Villabruna. Can someone explain it to me?
All R1b-L754, V88, P297 in Scandinavia, the Baltic countries or the Balkans are clearly WHGs, and are also older than the few R1b cases that have appeared in the Mesolithic and Neolithic of Ukraine and Russia. So why do we have to think that the origin of R1b is in the steppes?
Many surprises still await us in this world of genetics and some may not be able to accept them
And this:
"Animals and humans in the European Russian Arctic towards the end of the last Ice Age and during the mid‐Holocene time"
@ Ιωαννης θεοδωρος Γαβρας
Try checking the facts a little before putting out an idiotic answer
Ric Hern said...
"Something interesting when considering the Refuge Theory.
"Geo-archaeological investigations of Palaeolithic sites along the Ural Mountains – On the northern presence of humans during the last Ice Age"
Well, there undoubtedly were relatives of Aurignacian and Sunghir at that time, maybe Kostenki and Oase: C1a2, C1b, K2a.
Is Villabruna not +-6000 Years downstream from the proposed R1b time of origin ? A lot can happen in 6000 years. Iron Gates are even further downstream. The same counts for PESS001. But if PESS001 ancestors were used to Tundra like environment they could have been spread from Scandinavia to the Northern Urals because as I understand it, this was Tundra like environment and only when large game started to die out or became hunted to extinction in this area did they consider the Rivers as the main foodsource and migrated Southwards along them picking of some occasional remaining Bison and Horse herd which in all probability did not migrate far from a Water Source.
@ Ric
It’s important to note that the ural sites are bimodal
@ Ric Hern
"But if PESS001 ancestors were used to Tundra like environment they could have been spread from Scandinavia to the Northern Urals"
It can't be because it can't ever be, 13000 years ago Scandinavia was under a glacier. Not to mention genetics. It is proved that people began to penetrate into Scandinavia from the east as they were liberated from the glacier, but not vice versa, and from the south of course. People came to the Urals from Siberia, there are no two opinions here, look at least Ust'-Ishim and Oase.
Is the C1b in South Eurasia (India + SE Asia) derivative of the C1b in North Eurasia or vice versa? Also I'm guess the Ust-Ishim and Oase K2a is just a side branch of K2a that died out (probably like Tianyuan's K2b).
@ Rob
Yes indeed. However people lived way up North during the worst of the Maximums...the latest being the Pymva Shor population during the Younger Dryas...and maybe PESS001 aswell.
@Archi
"The Villabruna cluster has been modeled
as contributing to both the ~30kya Věstonice and ~20kya El Mirón-cluster populations3
81 ,
82 suggesting that it must have existed somewhere in relatively unmixed form long before the
oldest genetic data we have from it at ~14kya"
From "Paleolithic DNA from the Caucasus reveals
2 core of West Eurasian ancestry"
"We show that all Iberian HGs, including the oldest, a ∼19,000-year-old individual from El Mirón in Spain, carry dual ancestry from both Villabruna and the Magdalenian-related individuals. Thus, our results suggest an early connection between two potential refugia, resulting in a genetic ancestry that survived in later Iberian HGs."
From "Survival of Late Pleistocene Hunter-Gatherer Ancestry in the Iberian Peninsula"
@ Archi
If you read the whole paper you will see Pymva Shor. Much, much later than those you mentioned. "Younger Dryas".
Idiotic answer? You dont have any serious argument against me. You dont have a serious genetic evidence that R1b is native in EU and Ofc you cannot accept that Iberians overall(even Basques) are largely desented from populations out of EU. The fact that WHG component is higly frenquent among your people means Zero. You are mostly ANF(Barcin) admixed and those folks arrived in Iberia from modern Turkey and later with Cardium Pottery. Not to mention the secondary populations from Pontic-Caspian Steppe and Ofc much later the North African/SSA influences in Iberia witch is also making you less European's genetically. So leave your superior-white/Western agenda to me and grow up. As For Villabruna(i see you mention it all day) it has ANE related admixture Witch means it arrived in Italy from somewhere near Siberia/Eastern EU. There is not such a thing as western in Genetics.This is not politics buddy.
@ Archi
I did not say they spread from Scandinavia to the Urals. I basically meant they lived between Scandinavia and the Northern Urals. Maybe even Northwestern Siberia. If people lived so far North during the worst of the LGM and Younger Dryas then why are many proposing a Southern Route of entry of Haplogroup R into Europe and a running from the Cold idea ?
Ric Hern said...
"If you read the whole paper you will see Pymva Shor. Much, much later than those you mentioned. "Younger Dryas"."
In the paper basically it is a question not of this site and not about its time, there are discussed times of the first arrival of the men in Europe (4.3. Who colonized Northern Russia and where did they comefrom). That's the time I wrote about.
The northernmost sites there are only formally located in Europe.
@mary
They are completely wrong, they cannot and are not modeled. They wrote a complete untruth. Their statement's just been disproved.
https://i.ibb.co/S3YwSkx/Paleo-Mesolithic-West-Eurasian-clusters-f3.png
"You are mostly ANF(Barcin) admixed and those folks arrived in Iberia from modern Turkey and later with Cardium Pottery. Not to mention the secondary populations from Pontic-Caspian Steppe and Ofc much later the North African/SSA influences in Iberia witch is also making you less European's genetically. So leave your superior-white/Western agenda to me and grow up. As For Villabruna(i see you mention it all day) it has ANE related admixture Witch means it arrived in Italy from somewhere near Siberia/Eastern EU. There is not such a thing as western in Genetics.
What you write needs to back up from ancient dna. Let's beging
Barcin were mostly WHG
ANF= 75% WHG 25% Basal Eurasian
Chances that Villabruna is from Siberia or eastern europe are zero. The paper about the gravettian origis says quite clearly that by 33000/30000 BC the CWE cluster ( Common West Eurasian ) was alredy present in central western europe and absent in eastern europe. CWE is another name for Villabruna.
But even more
ANE is a product of EWE (early west eurasian) migration eastward
These were likely people from Sunghir and/or Kostenky that migrate from eastern europe to Siberia and mixed with locals. You can see the link also in the venus figurine.
ANE= 75% EWE + 25% something related to eastern Siberia
But both Sunghir and Kostenky were Aurignacian people that likely came from further west ( from western/central Europe)
EHG is ANE+ WHG
No such thing as western in genetics.....I would say the opposite
You have an opinion about what i wrote even though my comment was never posted???
How do you know what did i write?
Are you a wizard or something?
Gaska has violated EVERY RULE OF THIS BLOG by insulting, swearing and even behaving like a hooligan but his comments are still ACCEPTED!
He expresses accusations-insults to Greeks calling them "Greek-Jewish" crap and calling kurganists sheep and indirectly characterise them as morons and buffoons!
Slang language and personal attacks to other commentators without reason and so on and so forth!
My comment was an answer to him by using arguments and facts. Nothing more, nothing less!
The reason that my comment was banned is not justified!
I did not break any rules.
Thus the concept behind the ban was "it's my blogspot i do as i wish"!!!
I don't come along with what you believe so i ban you (although i have a site in which i...invite people to express themselves with their comments)!
Politics had nothing to do with my comment!
The facts and the truth about some bloggers, scientists and sponsors and their specific target and origin was the reason for my ban.
It is not the fear of attracting "trolls" but the fear of getting into the black list of those dudes "who run the show" that made the owner of this blogspot ban me!
Thus instead of those "bigger than life" guys owing us a written apology for their propaganda we end up having our comments banned in a private blog!!!
There is nothing political about the Vilabruna's haplogroup or the anti-kurganists' pseudotheories!
But it is the cowardice and fear of people getting into the black list of various universities, labs, trusts and lobbies which own AAAS, WILEY, ELSEVIER, PNAS, NATURE and so on and so forth that drive their acts!!!
P.S. I never swear or insult people!
Look at all the comments here and you will see 7 out of 10 swearing and humiliating other commentators!
Are there any rules finally or not?
Probably they exist "a posteriori" and "De Jure" and not a priori as they are supposed to.
@Ιωαννης θεοδωρος Γαβρας
Yes, an idiotic answer and the more you write the more idiot you seem. You remind me of those leftists who try to argue that Europeans are not Europeans but African, Turkish, Moorish migrants and that we have to accept all foreigners who enter our countries
@Ιωαννης θεοδωρος Γαβρας said-You dont have a serious genetic evidence that R1b is native in EU and Ofc you cannot accept that Iberians overall(even Basques) are largely desented from populations out of EU.As For Villabruna(i see you mention it all day) it has ANE related admixture Witch means it arrived in Italy from somewhere near Siberia/Eastern EU.
1- You know that Villabruna is in Italy right? And you know where Italy is right? and you know that sample is R1b-L754 right? And that is the oldest R1b that we have right? And that this marker has not been found anywhere else in the world, right? if you don't think it's enough scientific evidence, you are an idiot-For me it is enough evidence to say that R1b is western
2-Not only the Basques, also the rest of the Spaniards, Frenchs, Italians and Europeans in general we have our most remote origin in Africa. Europeans cannot presume that the origin of humanity is on our continent-But our history is at least 200,000 years old and millions of mutations have happened in that period of time. P1 looks Asian, R* Siberian, R1? and R1b is European without any doubt-When you discover any R1b older than Villabruna outside Europe then you can say that R1b has its origin in another continent
3-This means that the paternal line of 92% of the Basques, 70 % Spaniards and the vast majority of Western European men originated on this continent (even though the Kurganists were right and we had our origin in the steppes, our origin would still be European) Do you get it? For us this is a pride and a privilege that you can never understand, although it is not exclusive to our lineage, because I1 and I2 are also absolutely European markers
@Ιωαννης θεοδωρος Γαβρας said-The fact that WHG component is higly frenquent among your people means Zero.
1-WHG in Iberia means ZERO?-Do you see how you are an idiot? - Do you know the percentage of male and female uniparental markers linked to WHGs in Iberia?
2-People like you, think that the Spaniards in general and the Basques in particular are concerned about having blood from the Anatolian farmers, the shepherds of the Yamnaya culture or the Moors. Nothing is further from reality, what worries us is having to endure idiots like you who try to teach us Westerners about our genetic origin or our autosomal components.
@Ιωαννης θεοδωρος Γαβρας said-So leave your superior-white/Western agenda to me and grow up.
1-Only an envious self-complexed person can write those words. I am Basque, Spaniard and European and I will never give up what you call my white/western agenda
Population genomics on the origin of lactase persistence in Europe and South Asia
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.30.179432v2.full.pdf
... It is therefore reasonable to assume that the T allele arose somewhere in the Pontic Steppe and emigrated into Central Euro via the Yamnaya expansion in ca. 3000 BC ... discovered that, in the currently available ancient genomes, the earliest appearance was in Ukraine 5960 years ago ... is well after non-African populations differentiated from each other, it is likely that both the T and A alleles originated in a single locally differentiated Eurasian population ...
Jatt_Scythian wrote,
"How does the Austronesian C1b relate to the C1b in India and in Kosenteki-14?"
According to the main body of the article by Andaine Seguin-Orlando, Thorfinn S. Korneliussen, Martin Sikora, et al. (2014), "Genomic structure in Europeans dating back at least 36,200 years" (Science, 28 November 2014), "Mitochondrial analyses confirmed the sequence previously reported for K14 [haplogroup U2 (33)], which supports data authenticity. The Y chromosome belongs to haplogroup C M130, the same as in La Braña—a late Mesolithic hunter-gatherer (MHG) from northern Spain (22) (SM S7)."
However, information regarding tested Y-SNPs has in fact been reported in Table S6 ("ISOGG chromosome Y SNPs with derived allele in K14") rather than in Table S7 ("D-statistics for D(Mbuti,K14)(X,Lithuanians). Positive values indicate K14 closer to
Lithuanians") of the Supplementary Materials. In Table S6, it is indicated that Kostenki14 was found to exhibit a mutation that is characteristic of Y-DNA haplogroup C1-F3393; however, the authors also reported reads for SNPs that are found in many other present-day haplogroups outside of haplogroup C.
In Supplementary Information section 4 of the paper by Qiaomei Fu, Cosimo Posth, Mateja Hajdinjak, et al. (2016), "The genetic history of Ice Age Europe," Kostenki14 is reported to belong to Y-DNA haplogroup C1b-F1370.
I do not recall having seen any information regarding testing of SNPs downstream of C1b-F1370 in the Y-DNA of Kostenki14.
Several different subclades of haplogroup C1b-F1370 have been found among present-day speakers of Austronesian languages. One of these subclades (C-B65) also has been found among the members of various ethnic groups in China; judging from Y-STRs, most (if not all) members of this clade from China should share a MRCA at some time in the Bronze Age or later.
When compared with Indian members of C-K98, most Austronesian-speaking members of haplogroup C1b-F1370 appear to be more closely related either to Papuan members of C-M38 or to Chinese members of C-B65.
@David - The sort of high ANE that characterizes the Mesolithic to Early Bronze Age populations of the Eastern European forest zone and the Caspian steppe may have been associated with Y-haplogroup Q before R1a and R1b spread into these regions.
But I don't know. It's hard to say what happened without direct evidence from ancient DNA, and that's still lacking.
Possible, but I think unlikely. Consider this - so far R1a has only been found in populations rich in ANE. R1b has only been found in populations rich in WHG, sometimes with or sometimes with large amounts of ANE.
That suggests to me that R1b originated with an earlier offshoot from ANE that embedded itself in non-ANE territory. If R1a and R1b both originated in the Balkans I'd think we'd have found some early R1a samples there or in western/southern Europe by now. We haven't.
If we're just talking R1b alone though sure, I could see the Balkans being pretty important to that story.
I'd bet on an R1a/R1b split closer to where we've found ancient R2 in Central Asia.
Evidence of human occupation in Mexico around the Last Glacial Maximum
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2509-0
Martin Sikora “ To be more precise, the evidence is coming from the archaeology, not DNA. we attempted aDNA from environmental samples of the cave, but did not find sufficient support for ancient human DNA.” :((
@Gaska
R1a does not have origins in northern Russia - it is just a place where R1a5 was found. it is still interesting, that R1a expanded so far to the north, but as an origin that is not serious suggestion.
R1 expansion most probably corresponds with expansion of Epigravetian culture and somewhere there R1a and R1b formed and split. That is quite large area.
There is no need to be nervous - Villabruna is not R1b and not even R1b1, but R1b1a sample, just like R1b1a samples in Ukraine.
And R1b1b is found out of Europe, so origins of R1b are somewhere in between.
And R1b1c European sample was found in Romania - rest just like with the R1b1b are found in Asia.
So, origins of R1b points to Eastern Europe as well.
A completely different question is spread of R1b1a, that includes Villabruna and expands up to Ukraine.
As for R1b origins in west - R1b had to migrate away from R1a, because R1a is considered more archaic, so if you consider R1b western, just explain where R1a was in western Europe and how it get there and why there are no traces of that ancient R1a present in Western Europe, but only R1b.
There should not be any surprises if all data is already available.
@ Ric
My point was there is a clear dichotomy in the settlement of Ural regions during the paleolithic.
During its earlier part it was settled by people with Sungir & Kostenki on the Russian plane and further south west- aurignacian.
Then there are there is a bit of a hiatus in settlement
the next people to come along now come from the east with affinities to Siberian industries, such as Mal’ta
@ Mary / Sam
Yes that’s correct. WHG formed gradually since at least 20,000 years ago along southern Europe. There was no major turnover or significant shift
only in temperate Europe was there was a more sudden movement of so -called Villabruna ancestry toward the north around 14,000 years ago
@ Gaska
The Scientific community raises their hands up with you..!I am reading your comments for 2 years now and i can say for sure that your IQ is below average.Do you get anything from what i wrote?I told you that WHG is very strong among Iberians but it means zero since your major component is ANF from the Barcin site of Northwest Anatolia.Where exactly do you see me joking with your WHG?I am actually very happy to see that some ethnicities from modern Europe like Iberians and Balts are highly admixed with WHG/El Minor etc autosomal DNA witch is very interesting btw.It is a great honour for you to have this admixture but you should not avoid the rest archaic populations from your DNA.How stupid you have to be to do not understand that people from Pontic-Caspian steppe brought to Iberia lineages like R1b?Also where exactly do i mention that I1/I2 are not european markers?As for Villabruna for the last time,you have to realize that this R1b founded there probably because of the ANE related admixture.Most mesolithic-Neolithic samples are not R1b actually.We need more samples to have a better image about R1b.Even if we say that it is native in Europe and more specific to Italy/Balkans...what you going to win with it?Your autosomal is definitely not 100% native in Europe and you know it well.And btw who told you that you are not European rofl?Ofc Spaniards and more Specific Basque's are Europeans no1 doubt about it.But genetics are much more complicated especially when you want to claim pure native European heritage!And also i am the last person in here that you can call Leftie(trust me)...!It is time for you to grow up and accept the Kurgan Theory and its also the time to stop losing time from your life with R1b.Native in EU or not means zero,them most important it is that R1b in Iberia come mostly with people from modern Russia/Ukraine.
@Ric Hern
"If people lived so far North during the worst of the LGM and Younger Dryas then why are many proposing a Southern Route of entry of Haplogroup R into Europe and a running from the Cold idea ?"
The cold did not play any role in human life. Humans had fire and warm clothes, so no cold he was never afraid of. Here the most important criterion was the presence of food, if there was a lot of beasts, it means that man was widely represented there, and if there was no food, he was not there. In the north, wherever there was no glacier, there were mammoth steppe, which had the largest amount of food. Humans were following animals, the cold could be terrified by animals, and the coming glaciers.
Naturally, there is no reason to prefer the southern direction of migration to the northern direction only because of the cold, there was more food in the north, which is beautifully shown by the American Indians, who penetrated into America from the north.
The uniparental markers don't agree with ANE being descended from CWE/.Kosenteki/Sunghir like people. They were probably another branch of West Eurasians. Or their uniparental markers were wiped out by an East Asian population.
I also don't understand losers like Gaska and their foolish ethnic pride. This buffoon is able to accept that his ydna is ultimately Mongoloid and not even West Eurasian (ydna K2b and P1 are from SE Asia or NE China) but has a problem with the idea that his lineage spent some time in Eastern Europe? Nobody else seems to have trouble accepting R1b's history in Eastern Europe.
@ Old Europe
There are not pure components my friend.And yes ANF it contains a lot of basal admixture.G,H, and maybe T lineages are the most basal yDNA.So dont expect El minor and ANF to be the same.As for Villabruna you clearly dont understand anything.I said it contains a limited ANE admixture(Afontova Gora???) and this is probably where the R1b arrived.About ANE i never mention it has not west eurasian origins but it is not 100% west eurasian and you know it.And no there is not such a thing as 'Western' when it comes to genetics that is your imagination.And dont try to politicize it,i am by far more awaken than you when it comes to what the 'political correct'/PC trying to do with genetics the last years.This is not about communism versus capitalism sorry!!!
@ Tigran
Correct.This guy is psycho and the reason behind it is definitely because of political purposes.He believes that WHG/El Minor is Franko while the Steppe(EHG/CHG) are the evil Soviets ahaha.
@gL
Ukraine Mesolithic samples from the Dnieper region are largely WHG.Any R1b samples found in the Steppe are the result of an expansion of WHG people into the Steppes connected to Villabruna- 14,180-13,780 cal BP (KIA-27004: 12,140±70)-HapY-R1b1a-L754-Mit-U5b2b-
You can correct me if I'm wrong but the oldest of this line in Eastern Europe is 7,000 years after our Italian friend
I5892 (5301-4982 BC)-5.141 BC- Grave 33-Dereivka, Mariupol, Sredni Stog-Hap Y-R1b1a-L754-Mit Hap-U4a1-Mathieson, 2.018
And what about R1b-V88? At the moment he is 1,600 years younger in the steppes
I5235 (8.885 BC)-Padina-BHG-HapY-R1b1b1-V2219>PF6340*(xY8457)-Mit Hap-U5b2c
I5237 (8.474 BC)-Padina-BHG-HapY-R1b1b1-V2219>PF6340*(xY8457)-Mit Hap-U5a2a
I1734 (7.252 BC)-Vasil'evka-Ukraine-HapY-R1b1b1a-V2219>PF6340>Y8457 (x Y7777)-Mit Hap-U5b2
I4114 (5.401 BC)-Dereivka-HapY-R1b1b1a-V2219>PF6340>Y8457 (xY7777, M18)-Mit Hap-U5a1
And what about R1b-P297? The Baltic hunter gatherers (70% WHGs) remained in that region for more than 3,000 years
I4630-ZVEJ30 (7.271 BC)-Letonia, Zvejnieki-Mesolithic, burial 305, adult male, 25-30 years old, 8240±70 BP (Ua-3634). Found in the Zvejnieki II site. Grave goods include: Bone spearhead with one-sided serration. Ochre addition-HapY-R1b1a/1a-P297 (xR1b1a1a2-M269)- Mit-U5a2c
I4436 (4.155 BC)-Letonia, Zvejnieki-Neolithic, burial 261, sub-adult 2-4 years old from a common burial 258-261. No grave goods. HapY-R1b1a/1a-P297 (xR1b1a/1a2.M269)-Mit-U4a1
Afaik only R1b-V1636 is older in the east but this haplogroup did not reach western europe
I0122/SVP35 (4.600 BC)- Russia, Volga River, Samara, Khvalynsk II-HapY-R1b-V1636-Mit-H2a1-Grave 12-Male confirmed genetically, age 20-30, positioned on his back with raised knees, with 293 copper artifacts, mostly beads, amounting to 80% of the copper objects in the combined cemeteries of Khvalynsk I and II.
Common sense tells us that the movement of the WHGs related to R1b went from west to east.
The genetic history of R1a and R1b is very different. R1a never reached western Europe, neither in the Paleolithic nor in the Chalcolithic. Considering that R* is Siberian, I am not surprised that R1a appears in northern russia (10000 BC). Maybe we will find there R1* and R1b* Who knows? - In any case, the expansion of R1b in mainland europe had to be related to the Gravettian culture
@old europe
"What you write needs to back up from ancient dna. Let's beging
Barcin were mostly WHG
ANF= 75% WHG 25% Basal Eurasian"
This is complete nonsense. You're always talking complete nonsense about everything that's exactly the opposite of all science. Barcin_N ~= Boncuklu (+ WHG = 0%).
"Chances that Villabruna is from Siberia or eastern europe are zero"
The chances of you writing the truth are zero. Chances that Villabruna is from Siberia or Уastern Europe are 100%.
"CWE is another name for Villabruna."
It's not true.
"But both Sunghir and Kostenky were Aurignacian people that likely came from further west ( from western/central Europe)"
That's unscientific nonsense.
"EHG is ANE+ WHG"
You always write funny things.
@gL
"R1 expansion most probably corresponds with expansion of Epigravetian culture and somewhere there R1a and R1b formed and split. That is quite large area."
This assumption can only be true for R1b, all found R1a have nothing to do with the Epigravetian culture and its territory. The Epigravetian Culture is the Villabruna Cluster, ancestor of the WHG, but R1a is EHG which has nothing to do with the WHG.
@Gaska
"Ukraine Mesolithic samples from the Dnieper region are largely WHG"
Complete unscientific nonsense, you have absolutely no idea what you're writing. See https://i.ibb.co/S3YwSkx/Paleo-Mesolithic-West-Eurasian-clusters-f3.png.
Sometimes I feel like Gaska and old europe are the same person.
"You can correct me if I'm wrong but the oldest of this line in Eastern Europe is
I5892 (5301-4982 BC)-5.141 BC- Grave 33-Dereivka, Mariupol, Sredni Stog-Hap Y-R1b1a-L754-Mit Hap-U4a1-Mathieson, 2.018"
It's not true. It's not Sredni Stog!
Oldest in Eastern Europe are
Mesolithic Latvia Zvejnieki [I4630 / ZVEJ30] 7465-7078 calBCE (8240±70 BP) M R1b1a1a (xR1b1a1a2)
Mesolithic Ukraine Vasilyevka 2 [I1734 / StPet7] 7446-7058 calBCE (8190±60 BP, Poz-81129, date suspect because poor quality collagen) M R1b1a (xR1b1a1a) [L754 / PF6269 / YSC0000022]
"In any case, the expansion of R1b in mainland europe had to be related to the Gravettian culture"
But she wasn't tied up and she couldn't be tied up at all. R1b originated after the Gravettian culture disappeared.
@Bartholomew I
I have heard that before. That G and H are basal Eurasian. If T is also Basal Eurasian then L should be too no? Also what do you think of the origin of K2b and P1?
I don't understand Gaska. Basques are entitled to sovereignty and the right to decide what they want to do with their lands. As are all Europeans and all people everywhere. So I don't understand his racialist angle especially since he seems to have no problem with P coming from East Asians.
@ Bartholomew said-How stupid you have to be to do not understand that people from Pontic-Caspian steppe brought to Iberia lineages like R1b
You are definitely ignorant. I guess you know that the R1b lineages present in the steppes are not the western R1b lineages. You have never heard of VK531, ATP3, Smyadovo etc. So arguing with you is just a waste of time, because you can't even understand the ridicule you are making because the only lineage that came to mainland europe with the Yamnaya culture was Z2103 and only reached Hungary and Poland-You are simply an envious and leftist Greek who pretends to give genetics lessons.
@Bartholomew said-Correct.This guy is psycho and the reason behind it is definitely because of political purposes.He believes that WHG/El Minor is Franko while the Steppe(EHG/CHG) are the evil Soviets ahaha.
Are you on drugs or something? You realize that the only person who talks about politics is you. I think you should participate in another type of blog
@Tigran said-"I also don't understand losers like Gaska and their foolish ethnic pride. This buffoon is able to accept that his ydna is ultimately Mongoloid and not even West Eurasian (ydna K2b and P1 are from SE Asia or NE China) but has a problem with the idea that his lineage spent some time in Eastern Europe? Nobody else seems to have trouble accepting R1b's history in Eastern Europe.
My lineage spent some time in Eastern Europe? Don't make me laugh, only in your dreams-
When did you find R1bL51 / P312 / Df27 in the steppes? All those who understand that being against the Kurgan theory as explained by Harvard has something to do with the ethnic nationalism of the Basques are simply self-conscious people. I will not respond to your insults, I will only say that you are rude and a coward
Archi, Vasilievka 2 is R1b1b1a-V2219>PF6340>Y8457, and its origin is in the Balkans, then it is evident that it descends from the WHgs. All Baltic hunter gatherers are fundamentally WHgs, the fact that they are geographically in eastern europe is an anecdote.
@Tigran
"his ydna is ultimately Mongoloid and not even West Eurasian (ydna K2b and P1 are from SE Asia or NE China)"
That's not true. K2b is not Mongoloid or from China, just like K2b is not from Europe.
Palaeolithic Romania Peştera cu Oase [Oase 1] 39690-35630 calBCE [(34290+970-870 BP, GrA-22810), (>35200 BP, OxA-11711), (34950+900-890 BP, OxA-GrA combined 14C Age)] M K2a* (pre-NO*)
Also P1 isn't from SE Asia.
Palaeolithic Russia Yana river, north Siberia [Yana1] 32047-31321 cal BP (27940 ± 115 BP) M P1
Palaeolithic Russia Yana river, north Siberia [Yana2] 32047-31321 cal BP (27940 ± 115 BP) M P1
@Gaska
What the fuck do P312 and DF27 have to do with anything? Those are younger branches. Nobody is arguing DF27 was born in Ukraine.
Also I'm genuinely curious why you have so much invested in your y line? Its ultimately from Papa New Guinea anyways. Also I've read this blog for a while now and you have said stupid things like R1b kicked R1a's ass or "we" (referring to R1b guys) prevented R1a from reaching Western Europe (even though that's not true. R1a-Z282 and L664 all have sinigificant frequencies in NW Europe). Who the fuck is "we"? Do you think R1b Norwegians feel some sort of affinity to you over their R1a-Z284 and I1 brethren?
As far as WHG goes that's the smallest component in Europe. And Eastern Europeans (the people you hate for some reason) are the ones who have preserved this the best.
How did ph155 r1b2 with formation date 20000ya restrict itself to central asia and china?
@ Gaska
There is not a serious reason left to continue arguing with you.I will leave you exposed.I think the majority here have a good time when they reading your posts.At least for me.Btw i was reading your posts for ages and i was wondering how David allows you to comment in here...!I am the left-wing?LoL.If there is someone here with left-anti European agenda then it is you.It is quite obvious that you separate yourself and your people from Eastern Europeans and you don't to have any connection with them,this is also the big reason that you hate the 'Kurgan-Theory'.But don't worry, i got some news for you.These Eastern Europeans(R1a) that you hate so much are by far more European genetically than you and your people despite the fact that they do not live so western as you do...and they will stay more European in comparison with your state(Remember this).
@ Tigran
Yep,G,H and T are very basal eurasian.L seems to have a common origin with T but we dont have enough informations about them.About the rest i have absolutely no idea.I am more focused with more eurasian lineages tbh and more specific with lineages that played an important role to ethnogenesis of ancient populations/Cultures/tribes/Empires etc.
@Gaska
"Vasilievka 2 its origin is in the Balkans"
It's just your speculation, no one has that kind of data.
@ Tigran
Papua New Guinea ?? Where precisely is the evidence of Denisovan Ancestry in Europe ?
There is however Archaeological evidence of a migration from Southern Siberia through Mongolia into China around 49 000 years ago...
@Tigran
The obsession is because the more recently derived clades of R1b have clearer archaeological and probably linguistic correlates that are more likely directly related to present-day European culture(s). Bell Beaker, Corded Ware, Single Grave, and all successors.
Anything much before that is way more vague, difficult or impossible to tie to present-day cultures. Even if it is east Asian or Siberian, that may as well be lumped together with the ultimate African origin, it is too far removed to have any meaning to people today.
If that forms a big part of one's identity it can be hard to accept that it came from a foreign region more recently associated with "others".
@Bartholomew I
Agree. Eastern Europeans are the ones who preserved WHG ancestry the best as well as EHG ancestry. These R1a dominated Eastern European countries Gaska hates still look European while you could confuse large parts of R1b Europe with Pakistan, Turkey, Morocco, or NIgeria. Maybe that's the reason behind Gaska's bullshit. He's pissed about the political situation.
@Ric Hern
Didn't Tianyuan have Denisovian ancestry? Its a fact that the most basal P lineage ever found is from the Andaman Islands.
@LGK
I think there is a difference between that or and our ultimate African origin in that nobody really resembles the population that African population right? Whereas P originated after the separation of races.
@Archi
What does K2a have to with K2b? The fact is Tianyuan is Mongoloid along with K2 and P. How can you argue this?
@LGK
I still don't get it. The descendants of those Eastern European R1b-L51 guy are Western Europeans. It doesn't make Western Europeans any less entitled to their lands. And its not like anyone is arguing they spoke Russian. Nor do you see any Russian or Ukranian guys on these forums boasting about R1b coming from their land. Germans, West Slavs and Balts have all had their issues with Russians and none of them deny R1b is from Russia or Ukraine. Why does some Basque guy (whose people have had little to no interaction with Eastern Europeans) have such a problem?
@Tigran
"What does K2a have to with K2b? The fact is Tianyuan is Mongoloid along with K2 and P. How can you argue this?"
Because you're wrong. You don't understand the ancient spread. K2a is directly related to the subject, it is a precursor to purely Mongoloid N and O, but it is the oldest that is in Europe. You can't argue with that. Tianyuan to the Eropean lines has nothing to do with it, as well as the Romanian Oase to the Chinese lines.
The northern autosomes with these haplogroups have no Southern Denisovan admixture. You don't think you're writing the truth.
@Archi
Neither Ust-Ishim or Oase are West Eurasian. Both are undifferentiated Eurasians so how are they relevant?
So your argument is that Tianyuan is not the ancestor of modern PQR? That may be the case but where is the ancient DNA to prove that? Also SE Asia isn't conducive to DNA preservation so even if that popped up we can't rule out an origin further south ultimately where the other branches of K2 are found.
Even if they don't have Southern Denisovian admixture I think they have Altai denisovian admix. So these lines could still come from a NE Asian guy like Tianyuan who has precisely the type of ancestry that differentiates NE Asian from SE Asians.
@Tigran
I also don't understand losers like Gaska and their foolish ethnic pride. This buffoon is able to accept that his ydna is ultimately Mongoloid and not even West Eurasian (ydna K2b and P1 are from SE Asia or NE China) but has a problem with the idea that his lineage spent some time in Eastern Europe? Nobody else seems to have trouble accepting R1b's history in Eastern Europe.
It is misleading to use the term Mongoloid when talking about deep Southeast Asian ancestry since people with Mongoloid morphology expanded into Southeast Asia as late as the last 4000 years from what is now southern China with the spread of farming. Prior to 4000 years ago, Southeast Asia was dominated by hunter-gatherer groups with dark skin and a morphology that is commonly called "Australoid," certainly not Mongoloid. It is true that even peoples such as the Papuans and Australian natives are East Eurasian in a broad genetic sense, but still no one calls them Mongoloid as they are morphologically nothing Mongoloid and genetically nowhere close to them as well, the Southeast Asians prior to 4000 years ago were not so either.
Eastern Europeans are the ones who preserved WHG ancestry the best as well as EHG ancestry. These R1a dominated Eastern European countries Gaska hates still look European while you could confuse large parts of R1b Europe with Pakistan, Turkey, Morocco, or NIgeria. Maybe that's the reason behind Gaska's bullshit. He's pissed about the political situation.
No one would confuse any native European, West Asian or North African with any Nigerian from the looks. The Sub-Saharan African immigrants of the recent times have no relevance to the topics we are discussing.
@Tigran
People from historically marginalized, oppressed, or humiliated cultures/society, or those who perceive themselves as such, are naturally more susceptible to fantasies when "they" were once powerful, dominant, respected, etc. It manifests in many different forms, see hoteps, turanists, thuleans, etc. all deluded and pseudoscientific.
Certainly in this blog's comments there are Central Europeans, Balkaners, and Eastern Europeans who profess borderline conspiratorial sentiments that European language and culture - the most recent traceable direct ancestors of that which is predominant today - originally come from their particular area of present-day Europe and no doubt originally associated with their particular YDNA haplotype.
Hence the language used in many of these comments alluding to haplotype 1 "kicking ass" of haplotype 2, or haplotype 1 "having lots of sex with the women" of haplotype 2, and so on. Craziness.
I still don't see any compelling evidence that R1b was born west of the Urals unless there is some forthcoming data that I am not aware of from Europe. Villabruna and the major R1b descendants likely did originate west of the Urals, but the only L754-, PH155- member I am aware of is an Indian, and the bulk of PH155+ lineages are among Central Asians and northern Middle Easterners in Iraq and Iran. A cluster of PH155+ Bahrainis were found in a recent study and I strongly suspect the Yezidi R1b cluster is also PH155+ from a year or two ago. It would be nice to see some ancient remains of foragers from Central Asia.
@Vasistha
How did ph155 r1b2 with formation date 20000ya restrict itself to central asia and china?
-- Probably because R1b originates from the foragers or mammoth hunters in Central Asia. I'd like to see evidence to prove otherwise. L754+ probably has a European origin.
I don't follow the recent developments but I have said elsewhere that the western R1b could have originated in Central Europe in a culture that wasn't necessarily IE and that it could have been interesting to sample the prehistoric pile dwellings around the Alps. These people could have been Villabruna-related ultimately (I don't mean autosomally necessarily).
That can be VERY WRONG. I1388, Bell Beaker is in that region. Some Final Neolithic G2a samples, I think I've seen some CWC labeled I2c, I2a1b samples etc.
BUT it is interesting to find out more about the tradition of stilt houses in Europe. The way they are RECONSTRUCTED at least, they seem very similar to what is found in SE Asia. Certainly the origins of that tradition and how it expanded to Europe would have been nice to know.
I've noted that Dionysius of Halicarnassus says that the Tyrrhenians (Rasna) were the first to build 'high w o o d e n palisades resembling towers' in Italy. According to his NARRATIVE Etruscans were natives of Northern Italy that expanded South from the Po Valley in regions where other people ('Aborigines', Umbrians, 'Pelasgians' utlimately from Arcadia, Siculi etc.), used to inhabit.
@Apostolos
There's absolutely no evidence for any connection between a pile dwelling population and the spread of R1b across Europe.
And I'm very confident that there never will be.
@Tigran and Bartholomew, Bartholomew and Tigran
@Tigran said-Also I've read this blog for a while now and you have said stupid things like R1b kicked R1a's ass or "we" (referring to R1b guys) prevented R1a from reaching Western Europe
If you have read the comments on this blog for the last two years and you were smart enough, you would have realized that these are fun expressions to express what the vast majority of European archaeologists think, that is, the BBC stopped the expansion of Indo-European CWC in Hungary and Poland. Scientifically it is a proven fact that no case of R1a has yet been found in BB culture, which is very strange considering that many people now believe that BBc is a CWC offshot
@Tigran said-"And Eastern Europeans (the people you hate for some reason) are the ones who have preserved this the best.
It seems that in addition to being rude and coward you also like to lie.Who hates Eastern Europeans? You should know that for historical and cultural (even religious) reasons, we Spaniards have a better relationship with Poles or Croats than with Anglos or Greeks. So stop talking nonsense, what happens is that since you have no genetic arguments you dedicate yourself to spread shit in this blog
@Bartholomew .It is quite obvious that you separate yourself and your people from Eastern Europeans and you don't to have any connection with them,this is also the big reason that you hate the 'Kurgan-Theory'.
Do you have any genetic argument to claim that R1b-L51 originates from the steppes or are you going to keep saying political nonsense. I have always been very respectful to Eastern Europeans, you are pathetic trying to link my opposition to the Kurgan theory with Western supremacism. I just attack that theory because Harvard was seriously wrong and the demonstration has been the failure to find M417 and L51 in the Yamnaya culture
@Tigran said-I still don't get it. The descendants of those Eastern European R1b-L51 guy are Western Europeans. It doesn't make Western Europeans any less entitled to their lands. And its not like anyone is arguing they spoke Russian. Nor do you see any Russian or Ukranian guys on these forums boasting about R1b coming from their land. Germans, West Slavs and Balts have all had their issues with Russians and none of them deny R1b is from Russia or Ukraine. Why does some Basque guy (whose people have had little to no interaction with Eastern Europeans) have such a problem?
Because saying that R1b or R1b-L51 has its origin in eastern europe is an absolute lie and when you tell a lie 1000 times everyone ends up believing that lie. It is wonderful that you take for granted an origin in Russia or Ukraine when you do not have a single scientific evidence of what you are saying-I have already explained it in another comment R1b is much older in western Europe than in the steppes
Basically your reasoning (and that of your Greek friend) is as follows
1- Gaska says that R1b.L754 is western, because we have a sample of that lineage related to the Epigravetian culture in Italy and because we have a lot of R1b-WHGs in France, Germany, Scandinavia, Latvia and the Balkans. All these samples have been published by prestigious geneticists in recent years.
2-Since you have no genetic argument to oppose that claim (because there is obviously no ancient R1b genome in Russia, Ukraine or Central Asia), you have to use Western supremacism and politics to attack Gaska
3-Conclusion Gaska opposes the Kurgan theory because he hates Eastern Europeans.
Congratulations, everyone will have realized that both you and Bartholomew are pathological ignorant liars and manipulators
@Tigran
" So your argument is that Tianyuan is not the ancestor of modern PQR?Э
Exactly what it isn't, it has mtDNA East Asian, which isn't in the West.
Palaeolithic China Tianyuan Cave, Zhoukoudian cave system, Beijing [Tianyuan 1] 38170-36880 calBCE (34430±510 BP, BA-03222) M K2b B
Therefore, he cannot be an ancestor of the West Eurasian haplogroups. He is an alien from the west, from the same area as the one close to him autosomally,
Palaeolithic Aurignacian Belgium Troisième caverne (Goyet) [GoyetQ116-1] 33210-32480 calBCE (30880+170-160 BP, GrA-46175) M C1a
just like Oase is an alien from the east, and he is also not ancestor to the East Asian haplogroups.
"Neither Ust-Ishim or Oase are West Eurasian. Both are undifferentiated Eurasians so how are they relevant?"
Likewise relevant, between these cases there is no difference, K2a and K2b are all from the same K2 root. In the early Upper Paleolithic they were all undifferentiated, they all migrated long distances. Including from north to south. They migrated from an area where there were no Denisovans, especially southern, i.e. all SE Asia is completely excluded, also East Asia is excluded.
Gaska ; you should take note that the vast majority of BBC archaeologists are wrong; just as are the teeny-bop renditions of the indo-european theory; which many people grew up
You seem disinterested in learning the truth
So there are only 2 side here- those who want the best approximation of truth; and those who don’t (for whichever Personal reasons)
@Rob
You and I have very different visions of what BB culture was. I have visited many Spanish and Portuguese deposits and I know the Iberian chalcolithic well (I suppose that you will know better than me the Chalcolithic in Eastern Europe). Unless proven otherwise, no one can convince us that the origin of that culture is outside Iberia.
Am I also a western supremacist or an ultra-nationalist Basque for saying this?
When analyzing the deposits of the BBC with Iberian exclusive grave goods (palmela spearheads, ciempozuelos pottery) and the buried men are R1b-P312, we can only think;
1-This lineage was at home or 2-They abandoned inmediately its Central European customs .
You can choose the option you want, but only by analyzing many more deposits between 3.000-2,500 BC we will obtain the definitive answer. And believe me, we have hundreds of deposits
waiting to be analyzed-Remember we all seek the truth, and in my case if I am wrong I will have no problem recognizing it and apologize if I have offended someone unfairly. In the opposite field I only see insults, nervousness, lack of genetic and archaeological arguments and inability to recognize the mistakes made.
@Archi
Exactly what it isn't, it has mtDNA East Asian, which isn't in the West.
Science doesn't think so. Here in this recent work, it is written that Yana consists of 32% Tianyuan and 68% Kostenki.
"Ancient DNA indicates human population shifts and admixture in northern and southern China"
https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38568&d=1595058286
Vladimir said...
" @Archi
"Palaeolithic China Tianyuan Cave, Zhoukoudian cave system, Beijing [Tianyuan 1] 38170-36880 calBCE (34430±510 BP, BA-03222) M K2b B
Exactly what it isn't, it has mtDNA East Asian, which isn't in the West."
Science doesn't think so.
"
What kind of science doesn't think so? That the mitohaplogroup B is not East Asian and it is not in the West?
You're talking a lot of nonsense that's just gonna make you feel bad about it. That's what refutes you "Yana consists of 32% Tianyuan and 68% Kostenki."
o you wrote a statement that supports exactly me and refutes you, there's no two opinions. You're the one that science refutes.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-020-01102-5
List of the oldest R1b dudes (by the way it is obvious that most of today's Western European R1b is Steppe-related)
PS: message to Davidski, when will we see this Russian paleolithic R1a sample on Global25?
Villabruna, Villabruna, Italy, R1b-L754(xV2219,xP297,xV1636), BC:12030
Iboussieres31-2, Iboussieres31-2, France, R1b-L754(xV88), BC:9775
I5235, Iron_Gates_HG, Serbia, R1b-PF6340*, BC:8884
I5240, Iron_Gates_HG, Serbia, R1b-PF6340*, BC:8855
SC2_Meso, Iron Gates LM, Romania, R1b-V2219*, BC:8814
SC1_Meso, Iron Gates LM, Romania, R1b-V2219*, BC:8814
OC1_Meso, Iron Gates MM, Romania, R1b-V2219*, BC:8703
I5237, Iron_Gates_HG, Serbia, R1b-PF6340*, BC:7850
I4081, Iron_Gates_HG, Romania, R1b-L754(xPF6340), BC:7385
I4630, Latvia_HG, Latvia, R1b-P297*, BC:7271
I1734, Ukraine_Mesolithic, Ukraine, R1b-Y8457, BC:7252
I4655, Iron_Gates_HG, Romania, R1b(xM269,xV88), BC:6815
I4916, Iron_Gates_HG, Serbia, R1b-V2219*, BC:6812
I5411, Iron_Gates_HG, Romania, R1b-V2219*, BC:6650
Vlasa37, Iron_Gates_HG, Serbia, R1b-Y8451, BC:6613
I5772, Iron_Gates_HG, Serbia, R1b-PF6340*, BC:6500
I4666, Lepenski_Vir, Serbia, R1b-V2219*, BC:6067
I4432, Latvia_HG, Latvia, R1b-P297*, BC:5997
I5232, Iron_Gates_HG, Serbia, R1b-V2219*, BC:5951
I4626, Latvia_EN, Latvia, R1b-P297*, BC:5738
I4439, Latvia_HG, Latvia, R1b-P297*, BC:5698
I0124, Samara_HG, Russia, R1b-(pre-?)M73, BC:5599
I5408, Iron_Gates_HG, Romania, R1b-L754(xPF6340), BC:5500
I4434, Latvia_HG, Latvia, R1b-P297*, BC:5495
I6912, Early_LBK, Austria, R1b?, BC:5457
I4114, Ukraine_Neolithic, Ukraine, R1b-Y8457, BC:5401
I5891, Ukraine_Neolithic, Ukraine, R1b-PF6340, BC:5387
I5893, Ukraine_Neolithic, Ukraine, R1b-PF6340, BC:5300
I3718, Ukraine_Neolithic, Ukraine, R1b-Y8457, BC:5280
XN191, Germany_LBK_SMH, Germany, R1b-L754, BC:5263
RMPR-6, Rome_Neolithic, Italy, R1b-Y8451, BC:5209
Donkalnis7, Narva culture, Lithuania, R1b-M73(xM478), BC:5200
I5878, Ukraine_Neolithic, Ukraine, R1b-Y8457, BC:5187
I0411, NE Iberia Cardial, Spain, R1b-Y8451, BC:5181
I0410, Epicardial, Spain, R1b-Y8451*, BC:5180
I5890, Ukraine_Neolithic, Ukraine, R1b-Y8457, BC:5174
I5879, Ukraine_Neolithic, Ukraine, R1b-Y8457, BC:5150
I4112, Ukraine_Neolithic, Ukraine, R1b-Y8457, BC:5150
CHA002, Iberia_EN, Spain, R1b-Y8451, BC:5150
I5892, Ukraine_Neolithic, Ukraine, R1b-L754(xL389), BC:5141
I5881, Ukraine_Neolithic, Ukraine, R1b-PF6340, BC:5138
I5883, Ukraine_Neolithic, Ukraine, R1b-Y8457, BC:5105
I4628, Latvia_EN, Latvia, R1b-P297*, BC:5077
I0122, Khvalynsk II, Russia, R1b-V1636, BC:4857
PG2001, Eneolithic steppe, Russia, R1b-V1636, BC:4584
I2181, Bulgaria_Late_Chalcolithic, Bulgaria, R1b(-M269?(xZ2103)), BC:4502
KhlopkovBugor1, Khlopkov Bugor, Russia, R1b-L754, BC:4500
KhlopkovBugor10, Khlopkov Bugor, Russia, R1b-L754, BC:4500
KhlopkovBugor2, Khlopkov Bugor, Russia, R1b-L754, BC:4500
KhlopkovBugor3, Khlopkov Bugor, Russia, R1b-L754, BC:4500
KhlopkovBugor4, Khlopkov Bugor, Russia, R1b-L754, BC:4500
KhlopkovBugor5, Khlopkov Bugor, Russia, R1b-L754, BC:4500
KhlopkovBugor6, Khlopkov Bugor, Russia, R1b-L754, BC:4500
KhlopkovBugor7, Khlopkov Bugor, Russia, R1b-L754, BC:4500
KhlopkovBugor8, Khlopkov Bugor, Russia, R1b-L754, BC:4500
KhlopkovBugor9, Khlopkov Bugor, Russia, R1b-L754, BC:4500
I2430, Bulgaria_Late_Chalcolithic, Bulgaria, R1b-Y8457, BC:4497
@Ezio Auditore
PS: message to Davidski, when will we see this Russian paleolithic R1a sample on Global25?
When the paper is published.
Although PES001 will probably be very similar to Baltic_LVA_MN:I4554.
Interesting... that sample is 61.2% ANE, 31.8% WHG and 7% CHG.
@Ezio Auditore-
That list is totally correct. Only two questions
1-XN191-I did not know that case in the LBK, do you know what paper that sample has been published on?
2-All those R1b in Khlopkov Bugor, Russia (4,500 BC)-In what paper has it been published? I think that's just rumors
And some conclusions
1-The vast majority of those samples are WHgs (even Latvians and Balkans),
2-With these data can someone deduce an origin of R1b in Russia?
3-Not only R1b, but absolutely all uniparental markers in Western Europe (both male and female) are currently steppe related, but that does not mean they originate from the steppes. CWC-related migrations are responsible for changing this autosomal composition
4-The existence of M269 in Smyadovo-I2181 is further evidence of the dispersion of that haplogroup in European Neolithic cultures, 1,500 years before the CWC existed.
@ Gaska
@ Ezio Auditore
XN191 is from Rivollat's paper and it is Y-DNA Haplogroup I1, not R1b.
The list hasn't got the V88 like samples from Blatterhohle.
Hodo Scariti said...
"XN191 is from Rivollat's paper and it is Y-DNA Haplogroup I1"
In Rivollat's paper XN191 has Y-DNA Haplogroup NA, I1 is mtDNA Haplogroup.
@Ezio Auditore
"KhlopkovBugor1, Khlopkov Bugor, Russia, R1b-L754, BC:4500
..."
Where did you get this from?
1. XN191 is a low coverage sample, apparently it was not possible to get the Y-DNA, it is probably not even R1b. My mistake.
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2020/05/21/6.22.eaaz5344.DC1
2. I can't find anything about those, they're probably rumors or have yet to be published.
https://indo-european.eu/2019/08/don-volga-r1b-m269-rich-proto-indo-europeans-of-pre-yamnaya-ancestry
1. Latvian R1b hunter-gatherers have on average 27% ANE, they are not really WHG in the "western" sense of the term but something transitional. Serbian/Romanian R1b hunter-gatherers have on average 15% ANE. However, I agree that both are more "Western" than "Eastern".
2. I admit I have little knowledge about haplogroups, having always been more interested in the autosomal aspect. Judging from the data, I would say that the origin of this haplogroup is more towards Western Europe rather than Eastern Europe, although the latter has played a very important role in the spread of R1b in Western Europe over the following millennia.
4. I2181 is also a low quality sample, it is known to be R1b but M269 is followed by a question mark.
@Ezio Auditore
Please don't link to Carlos Quiles' crackpot stuff here. If you do I'll remove your posts.
Thanks Ezio Aud, I have already located Rivollat's paper, all the men from the LBK in that site are H2 then it would be strange if it was R1b. However, the haplogroup seems to have been assigned by reviewing the published genomes of the Reich Lab, and the person who did so has acted honestly, with which we have another doubtful case of R1b. Archi is right Rivollat said that this sample is low coverage HapY-NA
Regarding Smyadovo I1281, We have already talked about him in this blog thanks to Arza-It has a positive call for CTS9018 but is negative for SK2080 and for CTS1078 (R1b-Z2103)so it is R1b-P297 (x M478).It is also positive for PF6452, then almost certainly it is r1b-M269
Regarding-I6912, Early_LBK, Austria, R1b?, BC:5457 (Nikitin, 2.019)-it is a sample of the LBK in Brunn (Austria), and is positive for some R1b downstream markers but appears contaminated. The case is also doubtful-Derived alleles at the diagnostic hap-P sites CTS3446 and F212, the R1 site CTS997-Ancestral allele at the haplogroup R site L1225 (read length 45, likewise not damaged)
Some Latvian hunter gatherers are 70% WHGs
@Gaska
How come the oldest find of L51 to date is from an Afanasievo man buried in Mongolia, dated to 3200-2900 bc? Shouldn't this indicate that L51 was present on the steppes as Afanasievo were a direct transplant from the steppes to Siberia?
@Vladimir
"... It is therefore reasonable to assume that the T allele arose somewhere in the Pontic Steppe and emigrated into Central Euro via the Yamnaya expansion in ca. 3000 BC"
I don't think that's correct, as the T allele is also found in sub-Saharan Africa, associated with R1b-V88 and U5b, which came into Africa from western Europe probably during the Neolithic.
@Archi
Tianyuan is a man. Therefore, he could have passed his Ydna onto a West Eurasian population. His mtdna is irrelevant. Also I'm pretty sure he has Altai Denisovian ancestry.
Also Goyet shares some affinity to Tianyuan yes. But Tianyuan is still East Eurasian. And the affinity is likely because of East Asian ancestry in Goyet not vice versa. After all GOyet has an mtdna more typical of East Asia.
What is your theory? That K2b is an undifferentiated West Eurasian lineages that mixed into a West Eurasian population where y P was born and at the same time mixed into an East Eurasian population where y MS was born.Maybe but not likely. Only thing your theory has going for it is P was likely already born when Tianyuan's K2b was born.
@Onur
True. I should have used the term East Eurasian. I think these people looked different than early West Eurasians so still foreign. The original ANE were probably carriers of y C1a, C1b and I imo.
@Gaska
Its hard to believe you're not a troll. You're the only one that people think looks like a pathological liar. Also you clearly have a superiority complex as you've boasted about R1b's imaginary dominance over R1a. Nobody takes you seriously.
@LGK
I'll take your word for it but the majority fo boasting comes from Western European R1b guys. Also if you go over to anthrogenica you'll see a bunch of North Western Euros taking pride in coming from the steppe and having less of that "dirty" Anatolian farmer ancestry than Southern Euros. It seems unlikely that R1a, R1b and PIE don't come from Eastern Europeans. That doesn't mean Russians get to claim the accomplishments of all Europeans.
https://www.scienceintheclassroom.org/research-papers/tell-tail-signs-dual-dog-domestication
It seems there is a possibility that Asian dogs replaced European dogs maybe 14000 years ago. Is it possible R1b/R1a/Q/ANE domesticated these dogs and then moved to Europe?
@Gaska
It doesn't really matter because dead branches of R1b aren't relevant and didn't carry forward much (if any) of their ancestry to future generations. Take a look at the I2 specific branches in western Europe who exist today and they are 1-2% of all men. They remained inbred and died that way. Thus, even an early entry of L754+ to western Europe is immaterial because R1b men of today weren't part of that inbred group. I suspect the reason why fewer R1b made it west was because I2 guys were already there, thus early V88 and L754 in the Balkans were probably killed off or died off in isolation with the intruding farmers from the southern Balkans. Same probably goes for Blatterhohle, died in isolation in their caves. Few, if any non-Jewish V88 men in modern Germany.
Therefore, the point is that M269 is not from western Europe, but rather the PC steppes
@gaska
"Unless proven otherwise, no one can convince us that the origin of that culture is outside Iberia.
Am I also a western supremacist or an ultra-nationalist Basque for saying this?"
Yes, because there's no real consensus about where the BB style originated, it's still largely considered to be an open question, and it's notoriously difficult to "prove" things like that("this diffuse and widely copied cultural packet definitely originated HERE...not THERE") with archeology. So all you're doing is telling us that you have a prejudice you're determined not to part with, because of your ethnocenric views.
@Tigran said-Its hard to believe you're not a troll. You're the only one that people think looks like a pathological liar. Also you clearly have a superiority complex as you've boasted about R1b's imaginary dominance over R1a. Nobody takes you seriously.
This is not a psychoanalysis consultation but a genetic blog, everyone will understand that your genetic knowledge to discuss the origin of R1b and R1a is ZERO
@Copper Axe said-How come the oldest find of L51 to date is from an Afanasievo man buried in Mongolia, dated to 3200-2900 bc? Shouldn't this indicate that L51 was present on the steppes as Afanasievo were a direct transplant from the steppes to Siberia?
I6222/SHT001 (3.316-2.918 BC)-3.117 BC-The genetic analysis was done on a different individual from the sample used to produce the direct 14C date (published-Wilkins et al. Nature Ecology and Evolution 2020). The average coverage of the autosomal DNA is 0.136 and SNP hits on autosomal data is 146406 which both mean the Y-DNA coverage is also going to be low.The sample is positive for L52, but does not have a read for phylogenetic equivalents P310 P311-Also does not have a read for-L11/S127/PF6539,YSC0000191/PF6543/S1159,PF5856 and L151/PF6542.
@Aaron said-It doesn't really matter because dead branches of R1b aren't relevant and didn't carry forward much (if any) of their ancestry to future generations
Phylogenic evidence clearly indicates the common ancestors of extant L51 most recently lived in Western Europe, most likely France-The first subclade to break away from L51 not related to L52 is R1b-Z2118, dates back to only 400 years after the formation of L51 (5700 years ago, so well before the migrational period of L51 Beaker folk across Western and Central Europe). The men with this subclade, in modern times, are distributed mostly around Southern France and the Rhône region. Why is that the case, if not for that general area being L51's homeland? Why, during the great Beaker migrational period, would already differentiated Z2118 men "choose" to migrate to Southern France and not throughout the rest of Western and Central Europe? It would be like time-travelling to just before the great migrational period of the Beaker folk, marking those carriers of the subclade Z2118, and seeing that the vast majority migrated to that region North of the West Med. - that is ridiculously unlikely!-An Eastern European origin of L51 would require those with branches that split at an earlier date before the great migrational period of the Beaker folk (i.e. Z2118) to have preferentially, for some reason, migrated to the vicinity of the South of France, and not elsewhere, DESPITE having been present at the earliest stages in L51's Urheimat. It would be like travelling back in time to just before the supposed great migration of L51 Westwards from E. Europe, marking those who carried this haplogroup, and seeing that the vast majority of them ended up in Southern France and the areas nearby and not so much elsewhere.
So Aaron, You may think that all the R1b of mainland europe are dead lines and that they were replaced by R1b-M269, but the funniest thing is that you don't even have that lineage in the steppes but certain descendants (V1636 and Z2103) that have nothing to do with western lineages
@Bob Floy said-Yes, because there's no real consensus about where the BB style originated, it's still largely considered to be an open question, and it's notoriously difficult to "prove" things like that
The origin of BB culture is not an open question but a totally closed question since Cardoso's work in 2014 on the dating of BB culture in Iberia.And Cardoso is not a western supremacist or a Basque ultranationalist because he is Portuguese and one of the people who knows the most about BB culture in the world.
@Tigran
Your theories are too reliant on modern DNA.
Based on modern DNA there was a consensus forming in recent years that R1a originated in South Asia, but that has now collapsed due to ancient DNA.
There's no evidence of R1a, R1b or even R1 in ancient East Asia, or even in significantly East Asian ancient populations older than the Bronze Age, so you have to start with these sorts of basic facts and wait for more samples.
@Tigran
"Tianyuan is a man. Therefore, he could have passed his Ydna onto a West Eurasian population. His mtdna is irrelevant."
It's very relevant. This suggests that there was no migration from East Asia to Western Eurasia. n those days, both men and women migrated together inextricably.
"Also I'm pretty sure he has Altai Denisovian ancestry."
This suggests that there was no migration from SE Asia to the North.
"Also Goyet shares some affinity to Tianyuan yes. But Tianyuan is still East Eurasian."
Tianyuan is East Eurasian because it has an East Eurasian mitogaplogroup B, not because of a Y-haplogroup. Tianyuan's Y-haplogroup is not East Eurasian.
"And the affinity is likely because of East Asian ancestry in Goyet not vice versa. After all GOyet has an mtdna more typical of East Asia."
You interpret the data in your favor. It was the exact opposite. You ignore that East Asia is a zone of general Denisovan impurity, so migration from East Asia to the West was impossible at that time. You simply ignore this fact, which destroys your unsubstantiated assumptions.
"What is your theory?"
I don't have my own, I have a common scientific: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Y-Haplogroup_Paleolithic_Migrations.png
"Maybe but not likely."
Your assumptions are incredible, they're only based on the fact that nothing between China and Europe has been examined. It's called a survivor's mistake to make fidelity assumptions based only on random data, K2a you have some kind of non-deferentiation just because it's found in Europe, then it's not clear why you don't call it European, and K2b you have East Asian just because it's found in China, all of it's random.
"The original ANE were probably carriers of y C1a, C1b and I imo."
It's a complete mistake. All the data categorically denies it. This can never happen, all ANE are Q and R, but all C1a, C1b and I are absolutely not ANE.
"It seems there is a possibility that Asian dogs replaced European dogs maybe 14000 years ago. Is it possible R1b/R1a/Q/ANE domesticated these dogs and then moved to Europe?"
I've already written a topic about it in a pile.
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/05/of-horses-and-men-2.html?showComment=1589395916110#c4569638418054650279
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/06/the-precursor-of-trojans.html?showComment=1593779702181#c215333384577177901
@gaska
"Unless proven otherwise, no one can convince us that the origin of that culture is outside Iberia."
Chalcolithiccame to Iberia from outside and BB brought it.
@Davidski
That is a good point. Modern diversity also led people to believe that R1b came from the Middle East and obviously that theory looks extremely stupid right now.
Also you'ret probably right about R1/R1a/R1b not being ancient in East Asia (even in a genetically ANE population living in East Asia). I would even extend that to R and P in general. I doubt either Malta or Yana are ancestral to modern R carriers. The action was probably more westwards in the West Siberian plain with R1 splitting in Europe imo.
@Rob
That makes more sense.
@Tigran
Absolutely not, the understanding of ancient dog genomics is constantly changing, not least since 2016. Nobody is sure when exactly "East" Asian dogs arrived in Europe, the Pleistocene wolves from Eurasia are insufficiently sampled to confidently answer this question and the broader question of the origins of dogs in North and East China, and Siberia (ancestral to North American dogs).
With that said, it is probably not before the early Neolithic, and even then probably it was through a Middle Eastern pathway. It is not a viable route for R1b, R1a, or Q or ANE broadly to get into Europe in the relevant time frame.
@Rob
Projection of the century, feel free to remain in fantasy world where steppe people have the opposite role to everything in post-PIE period.
@Archi
"It's very relevant. This suggests that there was no migration from East Asia to Western Eurasia. n those days, both men and women migrated together inextricably."
Haven't we found East Eurasian mtdna C in Dnieper Donets and EHG?
"This suggests that there was no migration from SE Asia to the North."
That's actually a good point. So P is then from a NE Asian or ANE population then? K2b probably an undifferentiated Eurasian.
"Tianyuan is East Eurasian because it has an East Eurasian mitogaplogroup B, not because of a Y-haplogroup. Tianyuan's Y-haplogroup is not East Eurasian."
Well K2b is probably from an undifferentiated Eurasian. He doesn't have any western ancestry though.
"You interpret the data in your favor. It was the exact opposite. You ignore that East Asia is a zone of general Denisovan impurity, so migration from East Asia to the West was impossible at that time. You simply ignore this fact, which destroys your unsubstantiated assumptions."
Couldn't this minor Denisovan ancestry have been diluted by then?
"What is your theory?"
"I don't have my own, I have a common scientific: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Y-Haplogroup_Paleolithic_Migrations.png"
That's just a map. Who even made it? Its interesting though.
"Your assumptions are incredible, they're only based on the fact that nothing between China and Europe has been examined. It's called a survivor's mistake to make fidelity assumptions based only on random data, K2a you have some kind of non-deferentiation just because it's found in Europe, then it's not clear why you don't call it European, and K2b you have East Asian just because it's found in China, all of it's random."
That's actually a good argument. We have almost no aDNA from between lake Baikal and the Urals from the Paleoltihic or Mesolithic.
"It's a complete mistake. All the data categorically denies it. This can never happen, all ANE are Q and R, but all C1a, C1b and I are absolutely not ANE."
So you think the population that gave rise to ANE was K2b and then P was born in this population?
"I've already written a topic about it in a pile.
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/05/of-horses-and-men-2.html?showComment=1589395916110#c4569638418054650279
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/06/the-precursor-of-trojans.html?showComment=1593779702181#c215333384577177901"
Everything has already told you the New Siberian Island/Zhokov DNA is not reliable. That still doesn't explain why European dogs have East Asian mtDNA.
Either way it would obviously be preferable to have P come from an ANE population so I hope you're right but the Ancient DNA hasn't given any evidence for it. Granted it hasn't ruled it out.
Also there's a new claim that they found R1a in Iran dating to 4000 BC. How likely is that?
Talking about 'East Eurasian and 'west Eurasian' for Early Upper Paleolithic populations which were still dispersing might not be very a good idea
@Tigran
Also there's a new claim that they found R1a in Iran dating to 4000 BC. How likely is that?
Where did you see this claim?
@ Zero % LGK
“ Projection of the century, feel free to remain in fantasy world where steppe people have the opposite role to everything in post-PIE period.”
Huh ? That doesn’t correlate with anything I’ve said,
My point is don’t make blanket statements about entire parts of Europe about have no idea about.
Oh it’s also funny how you reflect on others who criticise academia, yet you claim Aegianologists are “in denial” because your cartoon theory is a fringe one
“ That's just a map. Who even made it? “”
The migration path of V88 doesn’t look correct
And we actually have decent amount of data for that, so I doubt any of the more speculative Paths are going be correct in this anonymous construct
@Davidski, When the hell are you going to finally ban Gaska?
@tigran
https://www.scienceintheclassroom.org/research-papers/tell-tail-signs-dual-dog-domestication
It seems there is a possibility that Asian dogs replaced European dogs maybe 14000 years ago. Is it possible R1b/R1a/Q/ANE domesticated these dogs and then moved to Europe?
14 000 years ago is about the time when the Volga catchment got disconnected from the Baltic ice sheet and both the Volga got smaller and the Caspian started to retreat. Together with the general warming of the region this means that the bandwidth for migration became much wider. (This does not mean that before that the region was impassable, just that it was relatively less migration friendly.)
I personally think that at least R1a passed west around that time, but I agree that this idea has problems from the genetic side, because as things stand right now, this assumes that R1 lineages went extinct in Asia after that.
@Rob
What blanket statements? I said there are people who think IE culture, language revolved around their particular little piece of Europe since time immemorial, and that is wrong.
They are in denial of the relevant data, same way European archaeologists swore up and down for decades that BB had nothing to do with steppe originating migrations, no siree, strictly nice friendly cultural diffusion, but were utterly wrong.
@ LGK
O, agree . For some reason I thought you were staring that people from Central or Eastern Europe were particularly prone to that. Maybe they are; but not all
@old europe
ANE is a product of EWE (early west eurasian) migration eastward
These were likely people from Sunghir and/or Kostenky that migrate from eastern europe to Siberia and mixed with locals. You can see the link also in the venus figurine.
ANE= 75% EWE + 25% something related to eastern Siberia
But both Sunghir and Kostenky were Aurignacian people that likely came from further west ( from western/central Europe)
EHG is ANE+ WHG
I'd just tried to model AG3 and MA1 in G25 nMontes as a mixture of Kostenki14, Ust Ishim, Vestonice16, Tianyuan, Sunghir, and Yana, just to see what happens. In this setup they come out as 100% Yana. Now, let assume that what you claimed is true for Yana. The problem is the time depth here. There was enough time for this population to became its own thing even if they were born from this mixture. And an Eastern European HG group from more than 30 kya is _not_ WHG. KO14 is significantly different from later WHG-s.
BTW, this happens when I try to model Yana:
"sample": "Yana UP:Average",
"distance": 4.5035,
"RUS_Kostenki14": 45,
"CHN_Tianyuan": 30.5,
"RUS_Sunghir": 14,
"CZE_Vestonice16": 10.5
And it says the best two way model is 70% RUS Kostenki14 + 30% CHN Tianyuan.
So there is something in what you say, but KO14 (or Sunghir) is not really WHG in the sense as it usually used there and also there was enough time for specific drift in Asia.
And then we have the problem that modeling later ANE rich populations like AG3 and MA1 with Yana still leads to a horrible fit, so this is not so simple.
"sample": "RUS AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3",
"distance": 30.5181,
"RUS_Kostenki14": 100,
"Ust_Ishim": 0,
"CHN_Tianyuan": 0,
"CZE_Vestonice16": 0,
"RUS_Sunghir": 0
"sample": "RUS MA1:MA1",
"distance": 22.3766,
"RUS_Kostenki14": 95,
"Ust_Ishim": 0,
"CHN_Tianyuan": 5,
"CZE_Vestonice16": 0,
"RUS_Sunghir": 0
Now, this test says two things:
- as far as nMontes concerned AG3 and MA1 are closer to KO14 than to early East Asians.
- the test seriously misses an important source, and AG3 and MA1 cannot be modelled the same way as Yana. Either because too much change between them or because AG3 and MA1 are not really descend from something like Yana, instead there is a ghost population at play that is loosely related to KO14, but still significantly different. And then we arrived to ANE, because if we push back the divergence time further we are around the time of the first modern humans in Europe.
@ Slumbery
This doesn't suggest that Yana is a mixture of the two, no, it just suggests that there was still a gradient between Kostenki and Tianyuan at the time and that Yana came from the west.
ANE doesn't already have this gradient, it's already isolated, it already comes entirely from a Yana-like population that has nothing to do with Kostenki, Singhir or Tianyuan.
@Tigran
"Haven't we found East Eurasian mtdna C in Dnieper Donets and EHG?"
This is Mesolithic, not Paleolithic, we are talking about Paleolithic Europe, not Mesolithic. And it has to do with EHG's promotion in Europe, especially since it's another haplogroup.
"Couldn't this minor Denisovan ancestry have been diluted by then?"
It couldn't. It was received quite recently and therefore it was in great numbers and naturally even in case of migrations it would remain, it has nowhere to go. If it had been preserved in SE Asia, it would have been preserved wherever they migrate to.
" Everything has already told you the New Siberian Island/Zhokov DNA is not reliable. "That still doesn't explain why European dogs have East Asian mtDNA."
No "everything" told me this, secondly, this opinion has nothing to do with dogs.
"It seems there is a possibility that Asian dogs replaced European dogs maybe 14000 years ago."
And your dates are actually taken from the ceiling.
@Rob
"The migration path of V88 doesn’t look correct
And we actually have decent amount of data for that"
Do you agree with R1b-V88 migrating into Africa directly from Europe (via western Europe) rather than via the Middle East?
@ A
Yes . Maybe via Iberia ; because we know EEF made it to Morocco
@tigran
"there's a new claim that they found R1a in Iran dating to 4000 BC. How likely is that?"
Link or source please
Here's the claim. It seems fake to me
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39991-What-Was-The-Original-Language-of-R1a1a?p=609306#post609306
@Tigran
The people at Eupedia are a bunch of morons, so please don't bring their discussions here.
This is the claim,along with the link to paper/abstract
(Dr. Maziar Ashrafian Bonab, Surena Firuzi, Behnaz Saffar,...) have found R1a1a (R1a-M17) from the DNA of ancient skeletons in Tepe Sialk in north cenral Iran which date back to about 4000-3500 BC: https://www.virascience.com/thesis/515891/
They used outdated garbage PCR methods. So it's a false positive that won't be confirmed with any sort of NGS test.
I remember not long ago some Indian scientists were claiming behind the scenes that they found R1a-M417 in IVC samples. Same sort of thing.
@Tigran
There is a link to someone student with some student work of a local Iranian educational institution, allegedly local (students?) that did by using of a very bad PCR and without normal dating. There can be no trust in the local students.
Just fyi, tepe sialk is linked to the food producing culture at chokh Dagestan in the Neolithic, north of Caucasus mountains.
The only reliable Y-haplogroup result I know of from Dagestan is R1b-M269 dating to the Bronze Age, apparently with a shitload of Yamnaya ancestry, on the way to northwestern Iran, where a similar population pops up there in the Iron Age.
Oh, wait, there was also that Kura-Araxes J1 from Dagestan.
Well, there you go, I was right on the money when I said this stuff...
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/04/likely-yamnaya-incursions-into.html
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/06/a-potentially-violent-end-to-kura.html
@davidski
"
I remember not long ago some Indian scientists were claiming behind the scenes that they found R1a-M417 in IVC samples. Same sort of thing."
I know you are terrified. The difference is those were rumours, this is actually a thesis, clearly on official paper, rather than forums.
It would behoove a scientific mind not to dismiss this so easily however biased you are and investigate it further.
If you claim to precisely know where all y haplogroups existed where all at all points in time, you have a God complex and you should get yourself checked
@vAsiSTha
It's time to find a new hobby now before your world comes tumbling down.
@vAsiSTha
"clearly on official paper, rather than forums"
Where do you see the official paper there? I don't see anything but some student's statement at some forum. Put out this official paper with the full text, as you claim, so everyone can read it.
The viral science paper is an Farsi
Courtesy of Google Translate
Investigating the possibility of molecular and comparative studies between the found samples of some ancient Iranian and modern Iranian ethnicities
Ministry of Science, Research and Technology - Shahrekord University - Faculty of Basic Sciences
Student: Sorena Firoozi
Supervisor: Behnaz Saffar Maziar Ashrafian Bonab
Year of publication: 1388
15 First page
Keywords: Ancient dna- r1a- Aryan people- Haplo group-
Abstract
Many parts of the world and their related civilizations, such as Egypt, have undergone extensive molecular studies. But in Iran, such research has been very limited so far. Previous research has never been done on ancient specimens of the Iranian plateau. But always in them, examples
The time of Aryan migration to the Iranian plateau was also evaluated. The basis of the present study is the study of the presence or absence of Haplo in the paternal group of the Eastern Aryan (Indo-Iranian-European) people as the marker r1a (m17) on
From this study, it became clear that in most of the samples collected from the region of Ilam civilization, the mentioned marker was present and in one of the two studied cases of silks with a longevity of 4000 BC, this index was also seen. . Thus, in addition to increasing the probability that a group of people living in these areas were Aryans in the mentioned time periods, the possibility of incorrect hypothesis of Aryan migration in the second and third millennia BC was considered and, on the contrary, this notion Created that this migration, if it existed, could have taken place in a much older time."
Caution: This translation may contain missing sentences or may be completely wrong.
@Mayuresh Madhav Kelkar
This message from their forum is not interesting at all, they can say anything, you need a paper with their data.
@Mayuresh Madhav Kelkar
I followed the link earlier and looked at the translation too and I can't see any paper there. As far as I can tell this is a student thesis from an university, published internally by the uni. It is not peer reviewed. (Not like peer review is an infallible qualification, but its absence here is important information.)
So do not call it a paper, call it a student thesis.
https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=U_oCpA4AAAAJ&hl=en
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maziar_Ashrafian_Bonab
https://people.uwe.ac.uk/Person/MaziarBonab
Never heard of him.
Anyway, when a decent lab tests those samples with the capture or shotgun methods, they'll all come back J1 or J2.
That's how useless forensic PCR is for ancient DNA.
@Mayuresh Madhav Kelkar
I believe you that the professor behind the student is a serious scientist, however a quick reading of his publication list makes it clear that he has no experience with archeogenetics. Mostly medical biochemistry and then one single population genetic article from 2018, where they looked only for several specific Y-haplotype with forensic PCR. ("PCR reaction carried out by designed primers for J1-M267, J2-M172, and J-M304, I-M170, IJ-M429, F-M89 and K-M9 markers")
There is no doubt that similar method was applied there (as Davidski suggested) and by a team that probably had no experience with aDNA. Well, I can't read the full thesis (registration needed), but I would not be surprised if they used a few designed primers for the haplotypes they expected to see.
Regarding the thesis and the 'student'
Dr Sorena is no student, he is an archaeologist. Here is the reply i got from him. I have also mailed the main geneticist of this study. Waiting for his reply.
"Dear _____
About Genetics subject, Dr. Ashrafian is the specialist and I left the issue more than ten years. Now I am focus on some archaeological- chronological articles which can explain about what may be interested for you of the Aryans antiquity problem in the Iranian plateau. Please find some of them in the Persian and English versions in my Academia page: https://independent.academia.edu/sorenafirouzi
If you need any more help, please let me know. I would be glad to receive your notions.
Sorena"
Language:
I am inclined to believe that there is an adstrate or substrate that can be found in many languages once considered part of the Nostratic or Eurasian language uper family. Both language super families have met considerable critique. The point is that there are some sort of common roots for the oldeat, most conservative parts of languages. "Me", "you", negation, "what". This could all very well be coincidences if the larger part of these so called "Mitian" languages - I read the term somewhere, no idea how main stream it is is - weren't adjacent. That is compelling evidence there is something there, even if not a genealogical decent from a super family.
Surprise:
EHG already was a clear cut separate ancestry 12.000 years ago.
@vAsiSTha
You should tell Sorena to send those Tepe Sialk samples to a proper lab.
@vAsiSTha
It's all a useless set of words. Only paper with data matters, the rest is just fabulous outpourings that have no meaning.
All their titles have no meaning, especially the word archaeologist does not mean anything.
@Gaska,
We have but a small snapshot of people who have taken the BigY or equivalent test so I don't believe you can arrive at a conclusion with such a small sample. The Neolithic data from southern France we do have are all non-R1b, so an age of 5700 ybp in France doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Where was he hiding out? My point above holds that the hunter gatherers of western Europe were inbred and unlikely to have contributed their Y chromosomes to the masses so they should not be considered either. Keep in mind that by the time the R-M269+ guys come into history, they are not hunter-gatherers, but patrilocal pastoralists who took diverse wives over long distances. A complete contrast to western hunter-gatherers.
@ A Wood
By the Mesolithic; WHG were not 'inbred' and they did pass their Y-DNA onto the masses, throughout the middle Neolithic and even Bronze Age. Theyd be would still be prevalent today in Western Europe if not for the BB expansion.
Was Afontova Gora and Mal'ta Buret maybe extremely Southern Populations of ANE related populations during the Paleolithic ?
@All
I'm working on a couple of new spreadsheets with ancient ancestry proportions for Europeans using qpfstats and the latest qpAdm.
My old datasheets are obviously overdue for an update.
I'll make these new ones as comprehensive as possible, and it might be a work in progress for a couple of weeks at least, but I'll try and post something tomorrow.
@ Davidski
Thanks.
@Davidski,
Sounds interesting!
@Rob
“Talking about 'East Eurasian and 'west Eurasian' for Early Upper Paleolithic populations which were still dispersing might not be very a good idea”
That makes sense. Although I’m surprised at how old the split is. Also is there a chance that there is a ghost population that contributed to both East And West Eurasians that might explain the affinity?
@Slumberry
“14 000 years ago is about the time when the Volga catchment got disconnected from the Baltic ice sheet and both the Volga got smaller and the Caspian started to retreat. Together with the general warming of the region this means that the bandwidth for migration became much wider. (This does not mean that before that the region was impassable, just that it was relatively less migration friendly.)
I personally think that at least R1a passed west around that time, but I agree that this idea has problems from the genetic side, because as things stand right now, this assumes that R1 lineages went extinct in Asia after that.”
Weren’t population sizes really love back then? Couldn’t all the R1 have migrated west?
“And then we have the problem that modeling later ANE rich populations like AG3 and MA1 with Yana still leads to a horrible fit, so this is not so simple. “
Didn’t MA1 have some CHG? Was there reciprocal gene flow between Iran_N and CHG like populations with ANE like population?
“Now, this test says two things:
- as far as nMontes concerned AG3 and MA1 are closer to KO14 than to early East Asians.
- the test seriously misses an important source, and AG3 and MA1 cannot be modelled the same way as Yana. Either because too much change between them or because AG3 and MA1 are not really descend from something like Yana, instead there is a ghost population at play that is loosely related to KO14, but still significantly different. And then we arrived to ANE, because if we push back the divergence time further we are around the time of the first modern humans in Europe.”
The first point makes sense given AG3 and MA1 were mostly West Eurasian.
The second point also makes sense. My suspicion is that Tianyuan, Yana and AGR/Malta were an eastern extension of a K2b/PQR population that didn’t contribute to modern Eurasians. I would be really curious to know the history of those lineages.
@Archi
“This doesn't suggest that Yana is a mixture of the two, no, it just suggests that there was still a gradient between Kostenki and Tianyuan at the time and that Yana came from the west.
ANE doesn't already have this gradient, it's already isolated, it already comes entirely from a Yana-like population that has nothing to do with Kostenki, Singhir or Tianyuan.”
That would still make Yana mixed. Tianyuan is East Asian. Unless you are suggesting there was a ghost population that lied between Kostenki and Tianyuan. ANE can’t come from Yana as ANE doesn’t require Tianyuan like admixture to the same degree. Also ANE supposedly has CHG like I mentioned.
@Davidski
Good to know. It sounded like BS but it did get the Hindu fanatics all excited. That was funny to watch.
@ Ric Hern
I think AG3 and MA1 were more likely an extremely eastern ANE population. Maybe the ANE that contributed to Europe was somewhere in the West Siberian plain.
@Tigran
"Didn’t MA1 have some CHG? Was there reciprocal gene flow between Iran_N and CHG like populations with ANE like population?"
Makes sense. Consider that the oldest (already sequenced) individuals with haplogroup X mtDNA are from Iran. I imagine that Native Americans got this haplogroup from the Middle East via ANE. One of the Lazarids papers, in the supplementary information, shows a small portion of Basal Eurasian ancestry in Malta1 and AG3.
Tigran
"
@Davidski
Good to know. It sounded like BS but it did get the Hindu fanatics all excited. That was funny to watch."
Learn some manners. This is a science blog. Repost your comment without this sentence. Moderator, please take note. Thank you.
@@Tigran
"That would still make Yana mixed. Tianyuan is East Asian. Unless you are suggesting there was a ghost population that lied between Kostenki and Tianyuan. ANE can’t come from Yana as ANE doesn’t require Tianyuan like admixture to the same degree. Also ANE supposedly has CHG like I mentioned."
You're wrong about everything and it can't see the logic in your statements. ANE has no CHG, CHG originated much later than ANE was influenced by ANE-like populations.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1K7T5Rd4q8c/WWaoQFxZqwI/AAAAAAAAF3w/S5ziyr44K2M43QTRtBM8W34Bt-1HtWjDwCLcBGAs/s1600/Eurasia_1_qpGraph.png
You forget about time and reason anachronistically.
@Tigran
Didn’t MA1 have some CHG? Was there reciprocal gene flow between Iran_N and CHG like populations with ANE like population?
MA1 had some ancestry from the south-west that can be partially modelled with CHG (in the absence of a better source), but I would definitely not call it CHG admixture.
First because it is super anachronistic. MA1 is ages older than the CHG samples, in fact it is much closer to Dzudzuana. Did something that could be called CHG even exist before MA1?
Second, because that ancestry is almost certainly not from around the Caucasus. I just drop here a few G25 nMonte results to show why not.
"sample": "RUS MA1:MA1",
"distance": 2.6656,
"RUS_AfontovaGora3": 72.5,
"RUS_Kostenki14": 13,
"CHN_Tianyuan": 6.5,
"GEO_CHG": 5.5,
"Ust_Ishim": 2.5
"sample": "RUS MA1:MA1",
"distance": 2.491,
"RUS_AfontovaGora3": 72.5,
"RUS_Kostenki14": 14.5,
"Onge": 8,
"GEO_CHG": 5
(CHN_Tianyuan: 0, Ust_Ishim: 0)
Note that the best fitting two way model from the above sources is AG3 + Kosteni14 and the second best is AG3 + Ust Ishim. AG3 + CHG is the worst fitting two way model (among the ones that include AG3, but without AG3 the fit goes to hell).
So this is not CHG admixture at all. This is some kind of ancient relatedness of a part of their ancestry and comes from a region that is probably closer to South Asia that to the Caucasus. (It does not mean that it comes from South Asia itself in a reasonable time depth of course.)
@Davidski
By the way, what about the Dzudzuana sample? I lost track of it? Was it never published or just not good quality enough for G25?
@Slumberry
I'm even more confused now. Is this SW admixture some sort of AASI(Onge) or something related to early West Eurasian(k-14) or something that is neither East nor West (Ust-Ishim)?
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